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>That's comparing to what someone DOES have, not to what someone Doesn't Have which is what you compared to. If you go by what people don't have then no one gets anything new ever. I guess you could argue that things get taken away from time to time which is true, but that's much less common.
You'll have to explain to me what you mean here. If the argument is 'Barbarians should have inviso because Predator path is the stealth path' (which I disagree with, but I've mentioned as much), then the appropriate counter argument is mentioning other guilds that have 'stealth things' that also don't have inviso. If you want to talk about 'new things for guilds to get', then by all means, but don't couch it in 'things that are already unique to some guilds'. Predators are also good at locating their prey; perhaps we should get a locate? Maybe we should be able to run trails? Snipe?
>If believe it's relevant to discuss what particular reason someone wants invisibility, than you would have to also discuss why YOU don't want others to have it.
Oh, I have, extensively. I feel thematically it isn't in line with the guild (predator path or not), I feel it isn't a good solution for balancing PvP, I feel keeping weaknesses in a guild are important for balance (PvP or PvE). I can keep going, but I don't think it's particularly pertinent, nor being particularly well received.
JHALIASCLERIC
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/30/2013 01:55 PM CDT
>>You'll have to explain to me what you mean here
Just to get your full quote from earlier:
SOMEONE ELSE>>>Barbarians and the above 4 mentioned guilds all have stealth in their spheres of influence.
YOU>>But again, SoI buffing is somewhat besides the point; I agree that the five guilds with stealth included in SoI place Barbs as the only of the group without inviso, but Traders and Empaths don't have a Crafting buff despite being Lore prime, Thieves don't have a skinning buff, Rangers don't get a locksmithing buff, etc., etc., etc...
Basically you are saying SOI doesn't mean someone SHOULD have an ability, Because Traders, Empaths, Thieves, and Rangers all DON'T have certain abilities in their SOI, so you shouldn't get any either. Right?
I'm saying that you shouldn't compare to guilds that don't have certain abilities because they might in the future - that's to be discussed in their folders by their people.
If that was a rule, look what happens:
Character A wants ability X
Character B wants ability X
Character C wants ability X
Character D has ability X
Character B: You can't have X because C doesn't have X
Character A: Well C can't have X Because B doesn't have X
That means no one gets anything new because at least one other person doesn't have X.
It's not logical to game development and it' why this going in circles thing just isn't getting anywhere because your arguments are infinite circles.
Just like this one:
ME>>>Also it doesn't even matter "why" one particular person wants invisibility, it's useful to a lot of different scenarios
YOU>>I disagree, but am hesitant to cite reasoning couched in GvG comparisons, so will have to leave it at that. (You are saying it does matter why)
ME>>than you would have to also discuss why YOU don't want others to have it.
YOU>>Oh, I have, extensively..........I can keep going, but I don't think it's particularly pertinent
infinite loop. So it is important why someone wants it and not particularly pertinent why you don't want it. See how this doesn't go anywhere?
I'm going to bow out of this one until\unless it gets back on track to actually talking about an ability. :)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Just to get your full quote from earlier:
SOMEONE ELSE>>>Barbarians and the above 4 mentioned guilds all have stealth in their spheres of influence.
YOU>>But again, SoI buffing is somewhat besides the point; I agree that the five guilds with stealth included in SoI place Barbs as the only of the group without inviso, but Traders and Empaths don't have a Crafting buff despite being Lore prime, Thieves don't have a skinning buff, Rangers don't get a locksmithing buff, etc., etc., etc...
Basically you are saying SOI doesn't mean someone SHOULD have an ability, Because Traders, Empaths, Thieves, and Rangers all DON'T have certain abilities in their SOI, so you shouldn't get any either. Right?
I'm saying that you shouldn't compare to guilds that don't have certain abilities because they might in the future - that's to be discussed in their folders by their people.
If that was a rule, look what happens:
Character A wants ability X
Character B wants ability X
Character C wants ability X
Character D has ability X
Character B: You can't have X because C doesn't have X
Character A: Well C can't have X Because B doesn't have X
That means no one gets anything new because at least one other person doesn't have X.
It's not logical to game development and it' why this going in circles thing just isn't getting anywhere because your arguments are infinite circles.
Just like this one:
ME>>>Also it doesn't even matter "why" one particular person wants invisibility, it's useful to a lot of different scenarios
YOU>>I disagree, but am hesitant to cite reasoning couched in GvG comparisons, so will have to leave it at that. (You are saying it does matter why)
ME>>than you would have to also discuss why YOU don't want others to have it.
YOU>>Oh, I have, extensively..........I can keep going, but I don't think it's particularly pertinent
infinite loop. So it is important why someone wants it and not particularly pertinent why you don't want it. See how this doesn't go anywhere?
I'm going to bow out of this one until\unless it gets back on track to actually talking about an ability. :)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/30/2013 02:13 PM CDT
Ok, I suppose it's reasonable to dismiss the GvG side of the discussion. I'll stick to the thematic counter point then.
I'll also ask, why do barbs need it? Why does having a singular stealth buff mean barbs (and as a GvG comparison, barbs in particular) get inviso?
I'll also ask, why do barbs need it? Why does having a singular stealth buff mean barbs (and as a GvG comparison, barbs in particular) get inviso?
GORTEOUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/30/2013 03:31 PM CDT
>> This was by no means made clear by anything you stated in the discussion yesterday. Which is why I quoted you saying 'Blinking inviso is a huge advantage in PvP'. Basic inviso is not such a huge advantage.'. If I was interpreting this statement inaccurately, you should have addressed that the first time I quoted it back to you. But you didn't; this is the first time you've tried to draw a distinction between 'powerful' and 'utility'. This is actually the first time you've used the word 'utility' to describe inviso's place or function or form or theme.
You were so focused on the tree that you missed the woods. Stop reading into arguments like they're fortune cookies.
>> IMO, there's no real reason to keep inviso as an exclusive, since the terms of it's application and potency are negotiable. This applies generally to all guilds, and I say this generally for all guilds.
There's me separating the terms. Why am I continually making the inference here that you have no idea how inviso works in PvP? You know, it's OK to ask questions or asking me to clarify if you're confused. No condescendence implied here.
>> Which is why I brought up SoI's and why buffing was mentioned. Mentioning that thieves can buff weapons isn't a dismantling of a 'proficiency' argument, it's just mentioning another set of buffs that some has.
It's dismantling in that it points out contradictions in the basic structure of the argument. Socrates was a man, remember.
>> Incidentally, isn't the khri system still on 2.0 mechanics?
Yea, Khri is still in 2.0. Nothing changes with the buff capacity in 3.0, just some slight re-arranging.
>> Also,I notice you didn't respond to the point that Bards and Warmies both have a stealth buff; should they get inviso?
If they have it in their SoI, or there's some special reason for it to be there, it shouldn't be off the table. If stealth and inviso are indeed joined at the hip, it makes sense for guilds with stealth in their SoI to have it. But my thoughts were that basic inviso would be better as a survival feat.
>> The point that's being made here is that 'ability to buff stealth' doesn't mean 'guild should get inviso', just like 'ability to buff weapons' doesn't mean guild should get dual load, multi-toss or whirlwind.
That's your argument, not mine, trying to make a connection between these two things when there was never one made to argue against. I never claimed ('ability to buff' == 'ascertaining entitlement'). Quite the opposite in fact, I used it to dismantle the ('skill/skillset placement' == 'ascertaining entitlement') argument.
I'm not really sure why I have to keeping re-explain this, but I think it goes back to seeing the tree and missing the woods.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
You were so focused on the tree that you missed the woods. Stop reading into arguments like they're fortune cookies.
>> IMO, there's no real reason to keep inviso as an exclusive, since the terms of it's application and potency are negotiable. This applies generally to all guilds, and I say this generally for all guilds.
There's me separating the terms. Why am I continually making the inference here that you have no idea how inviso works in PvP? You know, it's OK to ask questions or asking me to clarify if you're confused. No condescendence implied here.
>> Which is why I brought up SoI's and why buffing was mentioned. Mentioning that thieves can buff weapons isn't a dismantling of a 'proficiency' argument, it's just mentioning another set of buffs that some has.
It's dismantling in that it points out contradictions in the basic structure of the argument. Socrates was a man, remember.
>> Incidentally, isn't the khri system still on 2.0 mechanics?
Yea, Khri is still in 2.0. Nothing changes with the buff capacity in 3.0, just some slight re-arranging.
>> Also,I notice you didn't respond to the point that Bards and Warmies both have a stealth buff; should they get inviso?
If they have it in their SoI, or there's some special reason for it to be there, it shouldn't be off the table. If stealth and inviso are indeed joined at the hip, it makes sense for guilds with stealth in their SoI to have it. But my thoughts were that basic inviso would be better as a survival feat.
>> The point that's being made here is that 'ability to buff stealth' doesn't mean 'guild should get inviso', just like 'ability to buff weapons' doesn't mean guild should get dual load, multi-toss or whirlwind.
That's your argument, not mine, trying to make a connection between these two things when there was never one made to argue against. I never claimed ('ability to buff' == 'ascertaining entitlement'). Quite the opposite in fact, I used it to dismantle the ('skill/skillset placement' == 'ascertaining entitlement') argument.
I'm not really sure why I have to keeping re-explain this, but I think it goes back to seeing the tree and missing the woods.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/30/2013 04:34 PM CDT
Since it seems I missed your point about separating the utility and power of inviso, I'll let that one go. I'm admittedly uncertain why or what you want inviso for if it's a utility, not 'power' thing, but bet any further inquiries will only result in denigration. I don't think your exasperation at this point is justified, given how buried that part of your message appears.
>It's dismantling in that it points out contradictions in the basic structure of the argument. Socrates was a man, remember.
>Yea, Khri is still in 2.0. Nothing changes with the buff capacity in 3.0, just some slight re-arranging.
>If they have it in their SoI, or there's some special reason for it to be there, it shouldn't be off the table. If stealth and inviso are indeed joined at the hip, it makes sense for guilds with stealth in their SoI to have it. But my thoughts were that basic inviso would be better as a survival feat.
Ok, so if I understand this part of your argument, you're saying that thieves, using a 2.0 system, are able to buff something in their SoI, and that counters the point that barbs aren't survival prime or moonies, but have stealth in their SoI, and should thus have inviso? Like I said previously, I understand that barbs are the only guild with stealth in their SoI but no access to invisibility, which is why I mentioned other examples of guilds without perks associated with SoI related perks. For example, again, thieves and warrior mages both have Bows within their SoI, but can't dual load. Moonies and Traders both have Light Thrown, but don't have the multi-toss advantage that Barbs/Thieves/Bards do. Lots of guilds have weapons in their SoI, but only barbs can whirlwind.
Do these all dismantle your (admittedly valid!) point that barbs, having Stealth in their SoI, should get inviso?
>I'm not really sure why I have to keeping re-explain this, but I think it goes back to seeing the tree and missing the woods.
Respectfully, it may have something to do with the delivery of the argument, particularly how dense with snark and condescension your posts are. As I mentioned, if over a page of discussion goes by and a major premise of your argument (separation of 'power' and 'utility') isn't being conveyed, look to yourself for a communication error and see if you can rectify it. It's okay to go back and clarify what you meant. I say this with a little bit of sarcasm, but I assure you, no denigration, since around here, reasonable discussion is fairly difficult to come by.
>It's dismantling in that it points out contradictions in the basic structure of the argument. Socrates was a man, remember.
>Yea, Khri is still in 2.0. Nothing changes with the buff capacity in 3.0, just some slight re-arranging.
>If they have it in their SoI, or there's some special reason for it to be there, it shouldn't be off the table. If stealth and inviso are indeed joined at the hip, it makes sense for guilds with stealth in their SoI to have it. But my thoughts were that basic inviso would be better as a survival feat.
Ok, so if I understand this part of your argument, you're saying that thieves, using a 2.0 system, are able to buff something in their SoI, and that counters the point that barbs aren't survival prime or moonies, but have stealth in their SoI, and should thus have inviso? Like I said previously, I understand that barbs are the only guild with stealth in their SoI but no access to invisibility, which is why I mentioned other examples of guilds without perks associated with SoI related perks. For example, again, thieves and warrior mages both have Bows within their SoI, but can't dual load. Moonies and Traders both have Light Thrown, but don't have the multi-toss advantage that Barbs/Thieves/Bards do. Lots of guilds have weapons in their SoI, but only barbs can whirlwind.
Do these all dismantle your (admittedly valid!) point that barbs, having Stealth in their SoI, should get inviso?
>I'm not really sure why I have to keeping re-explain this, but I think it goes back to seeing the tree and missing the woods.
Respectfully, it may have something to do with the delivery of the argument, particularly how dense with snark and condescension your posts are. As I mentioned, if over a page of discussion goes by and a major premise of your argument (separation of 'power' and 'utility') isn't being conveyed, look to yourself for a communication error and see if you can rectify it. It's okay to go back and clarify what you meant. I say this with a little bit of sarcasm, but I assure you, no denigration, since around here, reasonable discussion is fairly difficult to come by.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/30/2013 09:51 PM CDT
Many of you have missed the point of the Predator Path. Stealth is but one facet of this one Path within the Guild.
Predator:
Evasion
Ranged Combat
Perception
Stealth
Engagement Speed
Anti CC
Anti Hiding
Anti Evasion
Stun + Knockback
Outdoorsmanship
SvS Barrier
Halt Bleeding
Contingency Ability
Those are all things one could associate with a Predator. They are difficult to pin down, like to strike from range when possible - or close quickly - and are good at flushing their prey. If injured they can disengage and lick their wounds.
What makes you want invisibility? What does it offer that standard hiding and stealth does not? How would you use it?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Predator:
Evasion
Ranged Combat
Perception
Stealth
Engagement Speed
Anti CC
Anti Hiding
Anti Evasion
Stun + Knockback
Outdoorsmanship
SvS Barrier
Halt Bleeding
Contingency Ability
Those are all things one could associate with a Predator. They are difficult to pin down, like to strike from range when possible - or close quickly - and are good at flushing their prey. If injured they can disengage and lick their wounds.
What makes you want invisibility? What does it offer that standard hiding and stealth does not? How would you use it?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
2DUMBARSE
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/30/2013 10:50 PM CDT
>Invis is much more effective in PvP than mundane stealth, it makes it easier to disengage from combat and it allows the person using the ability to walk around undetected without sneaking.
The reforming kind can be a life saver, literally, and it can be effectively a 0 RT rehide where the invisible party can focus on offense rather than trying to hide again without being spotted. Moreover, you lose track of someone who's invisible after 30 seconds, regardless of how debilitated he is so it's a nice way to get out of a ~20 second stun, immobilize, web, etc.
There are more benefits that don't immediately jump to mind in my sleepy stupor but those are a few of the big ones.
The reforming kind can be a life saver, literally, and it can be effectively a 0 RT rehide where the invisible party can focus on offense rather than trying to hide again without being spotted. Moreover, you lose track of someone who's invisible after 30 seconds, regardless of how debilitated he is so it's a nice way to get out of a ~20 second stun, immobilize, web, etc.
There are more benefits that don't immediately jump to mind in my sleepy stupor but those are a few of the big ones.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/30/2013 11:09 PM CDT
>>Out of curiosity, if reforming invis is off the table for barbs, would reforming stealth be considered or even desired by barbs?
+
>>If injured they can disengage and lick their wounds.
=
Might be cool if there was some kind of meta-meditation that caused Flashflood and Prediction to also add an auto-hide feature when triggered, similar to that wooden wristcuff quest prize (I think it was from Tower?).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
+
>>If injured they can disengage and lick their wounds.
=
Might be cool if there was some kind of meta-meditation that caused Flashflood and Prediction to also add an auto-hide feature when triggered, similar to that wooden wristcuff quest prize (I think it was from Tower?).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/30/2013 11:18 PM CDT
>you lose track of someone who's invisible after 30 seconds, regardless of how debilitated he is so it's a nice way to get out of a ~20 second stun, immobilize, web, etc.
I realized after that I should clarify what I meant here. I was referring to reforming invisibility. I know the spot effect is the same for hiding.
I realized after that I should clarify what I meant here. I was referring to reforming invisibility. I know the spot effect is the same for hiding.
GORTEOUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/31/2013 06:03 PM CDT
>> Since it seems I missed your point about separating the utility and power of inviso, I'll let that one go. I'm admittedly uncertain why or what you want inviso for if it's a utility, not 'power' thing, but bet any further inquiries will only result in denigration. I don't think your exasperation at this point is justified, given how buried that part of your message appears.
Asking someone to clarify is not the same as assuming you understood and misconstruing their entire argument. I don't mind clarifying, but when you're doing the argumentation equivalent of 'putting words in my mouth', raaaaaage.
>> Ok, so if I understand this part of your argument, you're saying that thieves, using a 2.0 system, are able to buff something in their SoI
The point of my argument was not to say that Thieves are out of line being able to 'buff every weapon at once' in 2.0 AND 3.1(Ok, they can't buff Sling). Not arguing that at all. The point was to show that 'range of proficiency' should be taken with a grain of salt. I mean, that's a lot of things to be buffing at once for a weapon secondary guild. (14!) to be exact, in 3 buffs. I don't seem to remember stealth assassins being terribly proficient at swinging 2 handed swords, sledgehammers and lances from stealth, and I couldn't picture those two things working together in cohesion.
>> For example, again, thieves and warrior mages both have Bows within their SoI, but can't dual load.
Pretty sure this is going to be a purchasable weapon feat.
>> Moonies and Traders both have Light Thrown, but don't have the multi-toss advantage that Barbs/Thieves/Bards do.
B/T/B get it earlier, but everyone can 5-stack. If you're asking for my opinion here, I wouldn't be against them also receiving that benefit, no 'throwing blades are garbage now' irony implied.
>> Lots of guilds have weapons in their SoI, but only barbs can whirlwind.
No one has every melee weapon in their SOI except Barbs, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it could be an expensive weapon feat at some point in time, with barbs being the only guild capable of the 'improved' whirlwind. Part of the magic of DR(for me) has always been that there are not many boundaries between the classes - if you want to be the sling-slinging gnome mage in plate armor with a specialization in poisons - more power to you, bro.
>> Do these all dismantle your (admittedly valid!) point that barbs, having Stealth in their SoI, should get inviso?
Squeaky gears get greased. I don't believe SoI is the god of "is and ain't", but since I pretty much agreed that those suggestions should all be on the table, no.
>> Respectfully, it may have something to do with the delivery of the argument, particularly how dense with snark and condescension your posts are.
It's insulting when people try to put words in my mouth. Your agreement with Tev about 'cutting past the lawyering to the real issue' and then focusing on the fictitious 'giving inviso to everyone to fix broken inviso' was an attack on my integrity. If you go back and read my posts, I wasn't disrespectful in the slightest until that accusation was made. But it was a misunderstanding(for you, not Tev), so eh, no harm no foul.
Mr K:
>> Those are all things one could associate with a Predator. They are difficult to pin down, like to strike from range when possible - or close quickly - and are good at flushing their prey. If injured they can disengage and lick their wounds.
>> What makes you want invisibility? What does it offer that standard hiding and stealth does not? How would you use it?
First strike(albeit, not very useful anymore) and to be sneaky without really needing to 'be sneaky'. Think 'Jaguar Paw' from Apocalypto. I wouldn't be against having limitations on it's use, though.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Asking someone to clarify is not the same as assuming you understood and misconstruing their entire argument. I don't mind clarifying, but when you're doing the argumentation equivalent of 'putting words in my mouth', raaaaaage.
>> Ok, so if I understand this part of your argument, you're saying that thieves, using a 2.0 system, are able to buff something in their SoI
The point of my argument was not to say that Thieves are out of line being able to 'buff every weapon at once' in 2.0 AND 3.1(Ok, they can't buff Sling). Not arguing that at all. The point was to show that 'range of proficiency' should be taken with a grain of salt. I mean, that's a lot of things to be buffing at once for a weapon secondary guild. (14!) to be exact, in 3 buffs. I don't seem to remember stealth assassins being terribly proficient at swinging 2 handed swords, sledgehammers and lances from stealth, and I couldn't picture those two things working together in cohesion.
>> For example, again, thieves and warrior mages both have Bows within their SoI, but can't dual load.
Pretty sure this is going to be a purchasable weapon feat.
>> Moonies and Traders both have Light Thrown, but don't have the multi-toss advantage that Barbs/Thieves/Bards do.
B/T/B get it earlier, but everyone can 5-stack. If you're asking for my opinion here, I wouldn't be against them also receiving that benefit, no 'throwing blades are garbage now' irony implied.
>> Lots of guilds have weapons in their SoI, but only barbs can whirlwind.
No one has every melee weapon in their SOI except Barbs, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it could be an expensive weapon feat at some point in time, with barbs being the only guild capable of the 'improved' whirlwind. Part of the magic of DR(for me) has always been that there are not many boundaries between the classes - if you want to be the sling-slinging gnome mage in plate armor with a specialization in poisons - more power to you, bro.
>> Do these all dismantle your (admittedly valid!) point that barbs, having Stealth in their SoI, should get inviso?
Squeaky gears get greased. I don't believe SoI is the god of "is and ain't", but since I pretty much agreed that those suggestions should all be on the table, no.
>> Respectfully, it may have something to do with the delivery of the argument, particularly how dense with snark and condescension your posts are.
It's insulting when people try to put words in my mouth. Your agreement with Tev about 'cutting past the lawyering to the real issue' and then focusing on the fictitious 'giving inviso to everyone to fix broken inviso' was an attack on my integrity. If you go back and read my posts, I wasn't disrespectful in the slightest until that accusation was made. But it was a misunderstanding(for you, not Tev), so eh, no harm no foul.
Mr K:
>> Those are all things one could associate with a Predator. They are difficult to pin down, like to strike from range when possible - or close quickly - and are good at flushing their prey. If injured they can disengage and lick their wounds.
>> What makes you want invisibility? What does it offer that standard hiding and stealth does not? How would you use it?
First strike(albeit, not very useful anymore) and to be sneaky without really needing to 'be sneaky'. Think 'Jaguar Paw' from Apocalypto. I wouldn't be against having limitations on it's use, though.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
DR-KODIUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/31/2013 07:40 PM CDT
>>Pretty sure this is going to be a purchasable weapon feat.
I am not planning on making weapon maneuvers be purchasable. I have no plans to make dual load available to everyone.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I am not planning on making weapon maneuvers be purchasable. I have no plans to make dual load available to everyone.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/31/2013 07:41 PM CDT
>>and to be sneaky without really needing to 'be sneaky'
Does RF no longer shimmer-message the room leading to your immediate AoE death by GMNPCs and players? I hated that as a player and it made RF quite a bit less useful than stealth ranks. Just sayin...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Does RF no longer shimmer-message the room leading to your immediate AoE death by GMNPCs and players? I hated that as a player and it made RF quite a bit less useful than stealth ranks. Just sayin...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/31/2013 09:42 PM CDT
>Part of the magic of DR(for me) has always been that there are not many boundaries between the classes - if you want to be the sling-slinging gnome mage in plate armor with a specialization in poisons - more power to you, bro.
I think this is an interesting point, but not really what's being discussed. I personally agree with you, that any guild has the ability to train however you want, and that's something that makes DR really unique and great, but Segmere being a master of survivals, or barbs being forge masters, or a Necromancer being a plate wearing master of two handed edged weapons, or $anyguildstertiaryskillsetbeingreallywelltrained isn't the same as, say, a Barbarian also being able to transfer wounds. The key thing I think you're mincing here is that invisibility is a guild specific skill; it's limited to, as stated, survival primes + moonies. I understand we simply disagree with this sentiment, but it's the sentiment I've been trying to convey. I disagree that stealth and invisibility are intrinsically linked. I also disagree that predator and invisibility (or even stealth, as I pointed out!) are intrinsically linked.
Think of invisibility as a shared signature ability, unique to survival primes + moonies. When War Mages can Rezz, we can really talk about separation of boundaries between the classes.
Out of curiosity, do you have multiple characters? I do agree with you that the potential for breaking guild stereotypes is high, and you can train characters as you see fit, but I think there's a pretty significant different among the guilds.
I think this is an interesting point, but not really what's being discussed. I personally agree with you, that any guild has the ability to train however you want, and that's something that makes DR really unique and great, but Segmere being a master of survivals, or barbs being forge masters, or a Necromancer being a plate wearing master of two handed edged weapons, or $anyguildstertiaryskillsetbeingreallywelltrained isn't the same as, say, a Barbarian also being able to transfer wounds. The key thing I think you're mincing here is that invisibility is a guild specific skill; it's limited to, as stated, survival primes + moonies. I understand we simply disagree with this sentiment, but it's the sentiment I've been trying to convey. I disagree that stealth and invisibility are intrinsically linked. I also disagree that predator and invisibility (or even stealth, as I pointed out!) are intrinsically linked.
Think of invisibility as a shared signature ability, unique to survival primes + moonies. When War Mages can Rezz, we can really talk about separation of boundaries between the classes.
Out of curiosity, do you have multiple characters? I do agree with you that the potential for breaking guild stereotypes is high, and you can train characters as you see fit, but I think there's a pretty significant different among the guilds.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/31/2013 09:44 PM CDT
>When War Mages can Rezz, we can really talk about separation of boundaries between the classes.
EBWOP: elimination of boundaries... you know what I meant...
EBWOP: elimination of boundaries... you know what I meant...
NINEVAH1
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/31/2013 10:11 PM CDT
Every inviso ability except Khri Silence and maybe inviso cloaks/rings (? haven't used them) messages the room letting everyone know there is someone there. Thieves might change with 3.1 though Ricinus hasn't said anything about it.
CLERIXHAX
Re: Panther or Whatever
10/31/2013 10:43 PM CDT
You're comparing guild only skills like Rezz and Empathy to invisibility, which is shared between 4 guilds, items, and up until just recently, runestones. You're grasping at this point for anything to keep this going.
Apples and skyscrapers buddy.
Apples and skyscrapers buddy.
GRIM45
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 06:36 AM CDT
>>Every inviso ability except Khri Silence and maybe inviso cloaks/rings (? haven't used them) messages the room letting everyone know there is someone there. Thieves might change with 3.1 though Ricinus hasn't said anything about it.
No, shimmers were removed from RF a while ago. Unless they were re-added in 3.0, which I don't recall seeing.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
No, shimmers were removed from RF a while ago. Unless they were re-added in 3.0, which I don't recall seeing.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
GORTEOUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 03:19 PM CDT
>> I am not planning on making weapon maneuvers be purchasable. I have no plans to make dual load available to everyone.
Hmm. I thought things like offhand weapon fighting and etc were going to be feats? Personally wouldn't mind losing dual load as a guild specific besides this. Bow seems to be a bit under-powered without it.
>> The key thing I think you're mincing here is that invisibility is a guild specific skill; it's limited to, as stated, survival primes + moonies.
We can disagree on who deserves what, but I don't think we have trouble acknowledging that it's a rather subjective call and has changed several times.
>> Does RF no longer shimmer-message the room leading to your immediate AoE death by GMNPCs and players? I hated that as a player and it made RF quite a bit less useful than stealth ranks. Just sayin...
Not that I've seen in 3.0. Even in 2.0 though, where it was far more useful - it still bought you plenty of time.
>> Think of invisibility as a shared signature ability, unique to survival primes + moonies. When War Mages can Rezz, we can really talk about separation of boundaries between the classes.
I'll refer to Clerichaxx's post on this one. I don't think we're comparing abilities of the same magnitude here.
>> Out of curiosity, do you have multiple characters? I do agree with you that the potential for breaking guild stereotypes is high, and you can train characters as you see fit, but I think there's a pretty significant different among the guilds.
Barb, Pally, Trader, Moonie, Thief. Only the Barb/Trader/Paladin are 100+, but I've done some PvPing with a 150+ Thief/Moonie that I have access to. I also have access to a 160ish barb and 150 Cleric/Empath.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Hmm. I thought things like offhand weapon fighting and etc were going to be feats? Personally wouldn't mind losing dual load as a guild specific besides this. Bow seems to be a bit under-powered without it.
>> The key thing I think you're mincing here is that invisibility is a guild specific skill; it's limited to, as stated, survival primes + moonies.
We can disagree on who deserves what, but I don't think we have trouble acknowledging that it's a rather subjective call and has changed several times.
>> Does RF no longer shimmer-message the room leading to your immediate AoE death by GMNPCs and players? I hated that as a player and it made RF quite a bit less useful than stealth ranks. Just sayin...
Not that I've seen in 3.0. Even in 2.0 though, where it was far more useful - it still bought you plenty of time.
>> Think of invisibility as a shared signature ability, unique to survival primes + moonies. When War Mages can Rezz, we can really talk about separation of boundaries between the classes.
I'll refer to Clerichaxx's post on this one. I don't think we're comparing abilities of the same magnitude here.
>> Out of curiosity, do you have multiple characters? I do agree with you that the potential for breaking guild stereotypes is high, and you can train characters as you see fit, but I think there's a pretty significant different among the guilds.
Barb, Pally, Trader, Moonie, Thief. Only the Barb/Trader/Paladin are 100+, but I've done some PvPing with a 150+ Thief/Moonie that I have access to. I also have access to a 160ish barb and 150 Cleric/Empath.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
GORTEOUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 03:21 PM CDT
It being far more useful in 2.0 due to 1-shot kills. WTB edit button :-)
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 04:27 PM CDT
>I don't think we're comparing abilities of the same magnitude here.
>We can disagree on who deserves what, but I don't think we have trouble acknowledging that it's a rather subjective call and has changed several times.
I mean, the first sentence means the second is, at your admission, subjective. I disagree, and think the comparison is apropos. You don't, and feel it's apples to skyscrapers. Perhaps that's why we don't see eye to eye on this. I think inviso, whirlwind, dual load, rezz, healing wounds, opening moongates, raising zombies, etc., are all guild specific/signature abilities, whereas, say, training a tert skill to excellence is 'breaking the barriers that separate guilds', to paraphrase. Some of those abilities are shared, some aren't. A GM gave you your answer, and you can cite disagreement with it all you want, but I disagree that calling it 'apples to skyscrapers' is appropriate.
>We can disagree on who deserves what, but I don't think we have trouble acknowledging that it's a rather subjective call and has changed several times.
I mean, the first sentence means the second is, at your admission, subjective. I disagree, and think the comparison is apropos. You don't, and feel it's apples to skyscrapers. Perhaps that's why we don't see eye to eye on this. I think inviso, whirlwind, dual load, rezz, healing wounds, opening moongates, raising zombies, etc., are all guild specific/signature abilities, whereas, say, training a tert skill to excellence is 'breaking the barriers that separate guilds', to paraphrase. Some of those abilities are shared, some aren't. A GM gave you your answer, and you can cite disagreement with it all you want, but I disagree that calling it 'apples to skyscrapers' is appropriate.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 04:29 PM CDT
Also, with respect to your guild choices, I think you've (and this is entirely subjective!) picked three, maybe four guild paradigms. Barbs and Pallies I feel 'play' quite similarly. I assure you, a Bard does not feel like an Empath, does not feel like a warmie/cleric (which I feel play very similarly), does not feel like a necromancer, does not feel like a moonie.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 05:05 PM CDT
Do you mean like how a GM posted that invisibility is for survival primes + moonies? Or how I pointed out that dual load is shared between two guilds? Or bow snipe is shared with two guilds? Or 'self healing' is shared between two guilds? Or how the bonus to multi-toss is shared over three guilds?
Maybe you should start defending how Predator actually involves inviso, or is even the 'stealth path'? Or why barbarians need it? Or participating in the discussion at any level beyond childishly ridiculing people who disagree with... I guess you, but you haven't really presented an opinion. So, how about you work on improving the tone of your disagreement and then we can talk. If you want to continue being obtuse in these discussions and demanding I repeat myself or dismissing arguments whole cloth for singular, acknowledged errors, I'll have to go back to ignoring you, for both our sanity.
Maybe you should start defending how Predator actually involves inviso, or is even the 'stealth path'? Or why barbarians need it? Or participating in the discussion at any level beyond childishly ridiculing people who disagree with... I guess you, but you haven't really presented an opinion. So, how about you work on improving the tone of your disagreement and then we can talk. If you want to continue being obtuse in these discussions and demanding I repeat myself or dismissing arguments whole cloth for singular, acknowledged errors, I'll have to go back to ignoring you, for both our sanity.
CLERIXHAX
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 05:06 PM CDT
How exactly would that set something apart when it's shared between 36% of the guilds in the game natively, and used to be available to the majority of the game with a certain item?
Backstab is a signature Thief ability, Scouting is signature Ranger ability, Risen is a signatureNecromancer ability. Invisibility is a shared ability, it's not defining and doesn't make the guild stand out, since most in the game could do it.
So, how about you post your rationalization on why Invisibility is signature? I'd love to hear it
edited: item based invisibility
Backstab is a signature Thief ability, Scouting is signature Ranger ability, Risen is a signatureNecromancer ability. Invisibility is a shared ability, it's not defining and doesn't make the guild stand out, since most in the game could do it.
So, how about you post your rationalization on why Invisibility is signature? I'd love to hear it
edited: item based invisibility
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 05:08 PM CDT
You just reposted and deleted your previous comment, so for clarity sake, my post #1286 is in response to your post which is now 1287.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 05:21 PM CDT
>>So, how about you post your rationalization on why Invisibility is signature? I'd love to hear it
GMs have repeatedly said that creating an invisibility effect is a signature ability for survival primes, with the exception of moon mages who are thematically the stealth guild for magic primes.
The fact that there are items that create invisibility effects is inconsequential, since they tend to be limited use, either in how often they can be used within a given timeframe and/or a limited number of charges on the item.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
GMs have repeatedly said that creating an invisibility effect is a signature ability for survival primes, with the exception of moon mages who are thematically the stealth guild for magic primes.
The fact that there are items that create invisibility effects is inconsequential, since they tend to be limited use, either in how often they can be used within a given timeframe and/or a limited number of charges on the item.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
CLERIXHAX
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 05:22 PM CDT
>Do you mean like how a GM posted that invisibility is for survival primes + moonies? Or how I pointed out that dual load is shared between two guilds? Or bow snipe is shared with two guilds? Or 'self healing' is shared between two guilds? Or how the bonus to multi-toss is shared over three guilds?
And here we go full circle again. Yes, Raesh posted invisibility was for survival prime + moonies, you also left out how this policy has been around forever. People are asking to revisit that stance, since it's been around forever. Kodius asked why people feel Invisibility would be beneficial to Barbarians. That kind of indicates he might be willing to entertain the idea and is asking where he sees it fitting. You're basing your arguments for why Barbarians shouldn't get Invisibility due Gorteous claiming it's needed for PvP (which he didn't) and some belief that Invisibility is a signature ability which pretty much anyone in the game used to have access to with items.
>Maybe you should start defending how Predator actually involves inviso, or is even the 'stealth path'? Or why barbarians need it? Or participating in the discussion at any level beyond childishly ridiculing people who disagree with... I guess you, but you haven't really presented an opinion. So, how about you work on improving the tone of your disagreement and then we can talk. If you want to continue being obtuse in these discussions and demanding I repeat myself or dismissing arguments whole cloth for singular, acknowledged errors, I'll have to go back to ignoring you, for both our sanity.
I haven't presented an opinion because I don't play a Barbarian and I have a neutral stance on if they get it or not. It's up to the Barbarians to present their case to Kodius and/or Raesh. However; I'm posting because you're chiming in to say "Raesh already said it's only for Survival Primes + Moon Mages, it doesn't matter what you say that old policy from a decade ago is set in stone." Yes people heard him say that the current old policy was written that way, yet people do have the right to ask him to re-consider that policy.
Just let it go and let the Barbarians respond to Raesh and Kodius.
And here we go full circle again. Yes, Raesh posted invisibility was for survival prime + moonies, you also left out how this policy has been around forever. People are asking to revisit that stance, since it's been around forever. Kodius asked why people feel Invisibility would be beneficial to Barbarians. That kind of indicates he might be willing to entertain the idea and is asking where he sees it fitting. You're basing your arguments for why Barbarians shouldn't get Invisibility due Gorteous claiming it's needed for PvP (which he didn't) and some belief that Invisibility is a signature ability which pretty much anyone in the game used to have access to with items.
>Maybe you should start defending how Predator actually involves inviso, or is even the 'stealth path'? Or why barbarians need it? Or participating in the discussion at any level beyond childishly ridiculing people who disagree with... I guess you, but you haven't really presented an opinion. So, how about you work on improving the tone of your disagreement and then we can talk. If you want to continue being obtuse in these discussions and demanding I repeat myself or dismissing arguments whole cloth for singular, acknowledged errors, I'll have to go back to ignoring you, for both our sanity.
I haven't presented an opinion because I don't play a Barbarian and I have a neutral stance on if they get it or not. It's up to the Barbarians to present their case to Kodius and/or Raesh. However; I'm posting because you're chiming in to say "Raesh already said it's only for Survival Primes + Moon Mages, it doesn't matter what you say that old policy from a decade ago is set in stone." Yes people heard him say that the current old policy was written that way, yet people do have the right to ask him to re-consider that policy.
Just let it go and let the Barbarians respond to Raesh and Kodius.
SSLAD
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 05:31 PM CDT
It doesn't seem right for Barbarians to have invisiblity. They're the guild that runs into the horde of enemies and slays them all with swords and blunts and weapons flying everywhere. Being invisible seems against the guild and having a stealth booster at all seems pretty weird to me. Invisiblity fits Rangers, Thieves, Necromancers, and Moonies much much more than Barbarians.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 05:38 PM CDT
>>I haven't presented an opinion because I don't play a Barbarian and I have a neutral stance on if they get it or not.
You haven't presented an opinion because you have no interest in the discussion as much as you have an interest in arguing with specific posters no matter the topic.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
You haven't presented an opinion because you have no interest in the discussion as much as you have an interest in arguing with specific posters no matter the topic.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
GORTEOUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 06:58 PM CDT
>> I mean, the first sentence means the second is, at your admission, subjective. I disagree, and think the comparison is apropos. You don't, and feel it's apples to skyscrapers. Perhaps that's why we don't see eye to eye on this. I think inviso, whirlwind, dual load, rezz, healing wounds, opening moongates, raising zombies, etc., are all guild specific/signature abilities, whereas, say, training a tert skill to excellence is 'breaking the barriers that separate guilds', to paraphrase. Some of those abilities are shared, some aren't. A GM gave you your answer, and you can cite disagreement with it all you want, but I disagree that calling it 'apples to skyscrapers' is appropriate.
Clerichaxx already point out that there's a difference between a guild specific ability and a guild exclusives. It's worth noting that both historically and even now, inviso and double nock have fallen into the latter of the two, whereas whirlwind, rezz, healing wounds, opening moongates and raising zombies, are and have always been the former. Again, without making any specific argument - I wouldn't mind a bit more flexibility between these two, and I still think the survival feat thing would be a cool idea. 'just sayin.
On your argument about subjectively - you're absolutely right, it's subjective. My arguments on 'who is entitled to what' were not to posit my views as being objective, but merely to point out that both yours and mine are inherently subjective, with examples of why. That same applies to my own views - the only things I have to fall back on here is 'predator path, heavy specialization, definition of construct', 'stealth is conjoined at the hip with inviso', and 'barbs have stealth in their SOI'. #1 and #3 are facts, #2 is debatable. Whether or not those warrant my claims about inviso are up to the GMs to decide.
This is why ya'll need to stop acting like surrogate GMs. Arguing with the tenacity of a parent scolding their child, when in fact you hold no such authority over any of us as players. You're trying to claim court isn't in session when you aren't the ones running the court. Arguing often feels like trying to get social security disability - you have to apply anywhere from 3 to 8 times before they stop throwing your application in the garbage.
In other words, there is no authority behind what we post other than what our arguments merit. There is no moral high ground. We have a contesting view which we take to the forum court, the two sides make their arguments, the judge(GM) weighs in and makes a ruling. Challenging a ruling based on new or withheld evidence is a common procedure, which a lot of people felt was warranted here.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Clerichaxx already point out that there's a difference between a guild specific ability and a guild exclusives. It's worth noting that both historically and even now, inviso and double nock have fallen into the latter of the two, whereas whirlwind, rezz, healing wounds, opening moongates and raising zombies, are and have always been the former. Again, without making any specific argument - I wouldn't mind a bit more flexibility between these two, and I still think the survival feat thing would be a cool idea. 'just sayin.
On your argument about subjectively - you're absolutely right, it's subjective. My arguments on 'who is entitled to what' were not to posit my views as being objective, but merely to point out that both yours and mine are inherently subjective, with examples of why. That same applies to my own views - the only things I have to fall back on here is 'predator path, heavy specialization, definition of construct', 'stealth is conjoined at the hip with inviso', and 'barbs have stealth in their SOI'. #1 and #3 are facts, #2 is debatable. Whether or not those warrant my claims about inviso are up to the GMs to decide.
This is why ya'll need to stop acting like surrogate GMs. Arguing with the tenacity of a parent scolding their child, when in fact you hold no such authority over any of us as players. You're trying to claim court isn't in session when you aren't the ones running the court. Arguing often feels like trying to get social security disability - you have to apply anywhere from 3 to 8 times before they stop throwing your application in the garbage.
In other words, there is no authority behind what we post other than what our arguments merit. There is no moral high ground. We have a contesting view which we take to the forum court, the two sides make their arguments, the judge(GM) weighs in and makes a ruling. Challenging a ruling based on new or withheld evidence is a common procedure, which a lot of people felt was warranted here.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
CLERIXHAX
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 07:41 PM CDT
>You haven't presented an opinion because you have no interest in the discussion as much as you have an interest in arguing with specific posters no matter the topic.
Yeah it definitely has nothing to do with those who shall rename nameless deciding that its not worth GM time to reevaluate an old policy.
Yeah it definitely has nothing to do with those who shall rename nameless deciding that its not worth GM time to reevaluate an old policy.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 10:55 PM CDT
It think at this point it's pretty clear barbarians should get an invisibility skill.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/01/2013 11:09 PM CDT
>That same applies to my own views - the only things I have to fall back on here is 'predator path, heavy specialization, definition of construct', 'stealth is conjoined at the hip with inviso', and 'barbs have stealth in their SOI'. #1 and #3 are facts, #2 is debatable.
For the sake of discussion, 1 is also debatable. As I've pointed out, and as Kodius confirmed, Predator Path is not inherently or thematically or centrally or whatever about stealth.
Since we've reached the point of acknowledging that we're just rocking personal opinion here;
>This is why ya'll need to stop acting like surrogate GMs. Arguing with the tenacity of a parent scolding their child, when in fact you hold no such authority over any of us as players. You're trying to claim court isn't in session when you aren't the ones running the court. Arguing often feels like trying to get social security disability - you have to apply anywhere from 3 to 8 times before they stop throwing your application in the garbage.
I respectfully submit that this applies to you, perhaps even more so than it applies to me or Tev. Especially because;
>We have a contesting view which we take to the forum court, the two sides make their arguments, the judge(GM) weighs in and makes a ruling.
A GM weighed in, which influenced my argument, and you and yours kept disagreeing. A GM then basically confirmed the position I took (Predator does not suggest just stealth or inviso), and you continued dismissing the point. If you're going to now say 'there is no moral high ground, a GMs ruling is the law of the land', then you should be willing to change your position or acknowledged the flaws in it.
For the sake of discussion, 1 is also debatable. As I've pointed out, and as Kodius confirmed, Predator Path is not inherently or thematically or centrally or whatever about stealth.
Since we've reached the point of acknowledging that we're just rocking personal opinion here;
>This is why ya'll need to stop acting like surrogate GMs. Arguing with the tenacity of a parent scolding their child, when in fact you hold no such authority over any of us as players. You're trying to claim court isn't in session when you aren't the ones running the court. Arguing often feels like trying to get social security disability - you have to apply anywhere from 3 to 8 times before they stop throwing your application in the garbage.
I respectfully submit that this applies to you, perhaps even more so than it applies to me or Tev. Especially because;
>We have a contesting view which we take to the forum court, the two sides make their arguments, the judge(GM) weighs in and makes a ruling.
A GM weighed in, which influenced my argument, and you and yours kept disagreeing. A GM then basically confirmed the position I took (Predator does not suggest just stealth or inviso), and you continued dismissing the point. If you're going to now say 'there is no moral high ground, a GMs ruling is the law of the land', then you should be willing to change your position or acknowledged the flaws in it.
GORTUNG
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/02/2013 04:47 AM CDT
Question, since it got asked by more than one person about why we feel a path named "Predator" warrants stealth... what do you think of when you read/hear/see the word predator? For me the things that come to mind are lions lying hidden in the tall grass, unseen and unheard stalking their prey. Panthers in tree branches blending perfectly into the shadows waiting for the most opportune time to pounce down onto their victim. The eagle circling high above, all but invisible, looking for that perfect morsel to dive after. The stripes on a tiger that help to break up the lines of their body, and that blends them into the broken shafts of sunlight that hit the jungle floor, helping them to stalk their prey until they're close enough to ambush. That is why predator brings forth the image of being stealthy to me. Predator means you're a hunter, and need to get close to your prey, which I generally take as needing some form of camouflage (or in DR's case, inviso!). I have a 100+ barb, 100+ cleric, 80th empath, and small warmie, do I think they should all get inviso? No, it doesn't fit any except the barb. Would it be nice on the others? Sure would, but just wouldn't feel right. Anyway, points have been made on both sides, just wanted to chime in on the whole predator/stealth thing.
GORTEOUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/02/2013 05:39 AM CDT
>> For the sake of discussion, 1 is also debatable.
Fair enough.
>> Predator Path is not inherently or thematically or centrally or whatever about stealth.
One of many themes, sort of like an ice cream sundae. Let's not confuse our terms here.
>> A GM weighed in, which influenced my argument, and you and yours kept disagreeing. A GM then basically confirmed the position I took (Predator does not suggest just stealth or inviso), and you continued dismissing the point. If you're going to now say 'there is no moral high ground, a GMs ruling is the law of the land', then you should be willing to change your position or acknowledged the flaws in it.
There you go putting words in my mouth again - I never once suggested that it was strictly about stealth. On top of that, I never once advocated the more powerful version of inviso(if we want apples vs apples here). And on top of that, he did not reinforce what you said -
Is stealth the only theme for any tree that it exists on? No, just one of many.
Are there any specialization paths as sophisticated as Barbarian pathway specializations? No, and it's worth noting that because of this, specializing has real implications to it. Barbs do not come close to being able to learn every ability even discounting Expertise abilities, which will cut heavily into our pool of ability points.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Fair enough.
>> Predator Path is not inherently or thematically or centrally or whatever about stealth.
One of many themes, sort of like an ice cream sundae. Let's not confuse our terms here.
>> A GM weighed in, which influenced my argument, and you and yours kept disagreeing. A GM then basically confirmed the position I took (Predator does not suggest just stealth or inviso), and you continued dismissing the point. If you're going to now say 'there is no moral high ground, a GMs ruling is the law of the land', then you should be willing to change your position or acknowledged the flaws in it.
There you go putting words in my mouth again - I never once suggested that it was strictly about stealth. On top of that, I never once advocated the more powerful version of inviso(if we want apples vs apples here). And on top of that, he did not reinforce what you said -
Is stealth the only theme for any tree that it exists on? No, just one of many.
Are there any specialization paths as sophisticated as Barbarian pathway specializations? No, and it's worth noting that because of this, specializing has real implications to it. Barbs do not come close to being able to learn every ability even discounting Expertise abilities, which will cut heavily into our pool of ability points.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/02/2013 08:04 AM CDT
>For me the things that come to mind are lions lying hidden in the tall grass, unseen and unheard stalking their prey. Panthers in tree branches blending perfectly into the shadows waiting for the most opportune time to pounce down onto their victim. The eagle circling high above, all but invisible, looking for that perfect morsel to dive after. The stripes on a tiger that help to break up the lines of their body, and that blends them into the broken shafts of sunlight that hit the jungle floor
All of these are aspects of hiding and stalking, and are not remotely camo or invisibility. Inviso in DR is roughly akin to 'the invisible man', an invisibility spell, or similar. It's not camo. It's not hiding. It's not stalking. It's an entirely supernatural ability almost unrelated to hiding other than requiring a survival guild to use it. No creature in the real world approximates 'invisibility' as it functions in DR. They do, however, maximize their ability to hide, and/or stalk, and do it amazingly well.
On the other hand, PREY animals in the real world often have active camo. Octopus, some fish, and probably the most well known being certain reptile species. With the arguable exception of the octopus (which isn't really a predator in the normative sense) active camo such as skin pigment changing, is a prey animal feature. It is used for hiding, and evasion, rather than stalking prey.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
All of these are aspects of hiding and stalking, and are not remotely camo or invisibility. Inviso in DR is roughly akin to 'the invisible man', an invisibility spell, or similar. It's not camo. It's not hiding. It's not stalking. It's an entirely supernatural ability almost unrelated to hiding other than requiring a survival guild to use it. No creature in the real world approximates 'invisibility' as it functions in DR. They do, however, maximize their ability to hide, and/or stalk, and do it amazingly well.
On the other hand, PREY animals in the real world often have active camo. Octopus, some fish, and probably the most well known being certain reptile species. With the arguable exception of the octopus (which isn't really a predator in the normative sense) active camo such as skin pigment changing, is a prey animal feature. It is used for hiding, and evasion, rather than stalking prey.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
JARAGONA
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/02/2013 08:56 AM CDT
>> It's an entirely supernatural ability almost unrelated to hiding other than requiring a survival guild to use it.
This is a really good statement. And this is the part I am merely asking for a revisit. It seems that Kodius is at least interested in continuing the discussion, and I am appreciative of that. We justify a supernatural ability to be usable by thieves because they are survival primary. That sounds pretty patchwork to me. If there is some survival-related requirement to be allowed the use of inviso, and barbarians have a path devoted to being super survival specialists (say that three times fast), I think it's completely reasonable to consider opening an ability at the end of that path to inviso.
That said, there are so many uses for inviso, beyond PvP. And I find it kind of interesting that people who don't PvP all that much or at all are worried about inviso making barbarians OP in PvP.
Of the posts I have seen, the guys into PvP (that I know of), from both sides of the table, are not worried at all about inviso making barbs OP in PvP.
I wonder if people are thinking of spars when they say PvP.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
This is a really good statement. And this is the part I am merely asking for a revisit. It seems that Kodius is at least interested in continuing the discussion, and I am appreciative of that. We justify a supernatural ability to be usable by thieves because they are survival primary. That sounds pretty patchwork to me. If there is some survival-related requirement to be allowed the use of inviso, and barbarians have a path devoted to being super survival specialists (say that three times fast), I think it's completely reasonable to consider opening an ability at the end of that path to inviso.
That said, there are so many uses for inviso, beyond PvP. And I find it kind of interesting that people who don't PvP all that much or at all are worried about inviso making barbarians OP in PvP.
Of the posts I have seen, the guys into PvP (that I know of), from both sides of the table, are not worried at all about inviso making barbs OP in PvP.
I wonder if people are thinking of spars when they say PvP.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/02/2013 10:27 AM CDT
>There you go putting words in my mouth again - I never once suggested that it was strictly about stealth. On top of that, I never once advocated the more powerful version of inviso(if we want apples vs apples here). And on top of that, he did not reinforce what you said -
I never said you suggested it was strictly about stealth. But this exchange did happen pages back:
>Tev> Barbarians are not survival primary. There's nothing in the lore of the guild that implies that they are big on remaining hidden.
>Gort> Predator path.
>Me> Predator path is not solely about being stealthy, anymore than the water spellbook is because of rising mists.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm responding to the fact that you, and others, seem to think that Predator path is about being hidden. Strictly or mostly or whatever. It's not. It's about 'utility for hunting down your prey', a facet of which, as Kodius stated, includes stealth. It's about being this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
Homeboy there is the ultimate predator. He has his supplies and his tools. He may stalk his prey, but stealth is part of his toolkit, not the lynchpin to his kill. Plenty of predators don't use stealth. The path, as I see it thematically, is about adapting to your prey. Kodius basically said as much:
>Kodius: Many of you have missed the point of the Predator Path. Stealth is but one facet of this one Path within the Guild.
But he did raise the questions; "What makes you want invisibility? What does it offer that standard hiding and stealth does not? How would you use it?" which I think would be cool to see answered instead of all this squabbling.
>Barbs do not come close to being able to learn every ability even discounting Expertise abilities, which will cut heavily into our pool of ability points.
I think it'll be worth seeing how Expertise is laid out before saying it's going to heavily cut into our ability repertoire. Do we not have access to all our abilities end game?
I never said you suggested it was strictly about stealth. But this exchange did happen pages back:
>Tev> Barbarians are not survival primary. There's nothing in the lore of the guild that implies that they are big on remaining hidden.
>Gort> Predator path.
>Me> Predator path is not solely about being stealthy, anymore than the water spellbook is because of rising mists.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm responding to the fact that you, and others, seem to think that Predator path is about being hidden. Strictly or mostly or whatever. It's not. It's about 'utility for hunting down your prey', a facet of which, as Kodius stated, includes stealth. It's about being this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
Homeboy there is the ultimate predator. He has his supplies and his tools. He may stalk his prey, but stealth is part of his toolkit, not the lynchpin to his kill. Plenty of predators don't use stealth. The path, as I see it thematically, is about adapting to your prey. Kodius basically said as much:
>Kodius: Many of you have missed the point of the Predator Path. Stealth is but one facet of this one Path within the Guild.
But he did raise the questions; "What makes you want invisibility? What does it offer that standard hiding and stealth does not? How would you use it?" which I think would be cool to see answered instead of all this squabbling.
>Barbs do not come close to being able to learn every ability even discounting Expertise abilities, which will cut heavily into our pool of ability points.
I think it'll be worth seeing how Expertise is laid out before saying it's going to heavily cut into our ability repertoire. Do we not have access to all our abilities end game?
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/02/2013 12:32 PM CDT
>>> On top of that, I never once advocated the more powerful version of inviso(if we want apples vs apples here). And on top of that, he did not reinforce what you said -
It has never been clear to me what you mean by the two forms of invisibility. If I am correct, you seem to want to be able to move but not haver it reform. I think that there are three invisibility templates in the game right now:
Steps of Vruan - is an AoE cylic invisibility that reforms if broken. You can move and do many actions that won't break it.
Silence, Eyes of the Blind and Refractive Field - are single cast invisibly that reform is broken. You can move and do many actions that won't break it.
Blend - is a single cast invisibility that breaks on many actions and does not reform?
I am just curious what form you believe is appropriate to barbarians when you say the weaker invisibility.
It has never been clear to me what you mean by the two forms of invisibility. If I am correct, you seem to want to be able to move but not haver it reform. I think that there are three invisibility templates in the game right now:
Steps of Vruan - is an AoE cylic invisibility that reforms if broken. You can move and do many actions that won't break it.
Silence, Eyes of the Blind and Refractive Field - are single cast invisibly that reform is broken. You can move and do many actions that won't break it.
Blend - is a single cast invisibility that breaks on many actions and does not reform?
I am just curious what form you believe is appropriate to barbarians when you say the weaker invisibility.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/02/2013 02:04 PM CDT
The challenge I have with proposing invisibility for the Guild is Barbarians currently rank #1 in terms of buff coverage. The only reason this doesn't change, is you can't actually use all of your buffs at once like a mage.
Before you complain about this, please understand that with 3.1 and the mastery skills you will be able to keep up Berserks more effectively (and potentially use meditations while engaged), bringing you closer to your magic counterparts in terms of capability.
What would you give up to get invisibility? Turtle, Swan or Serenity? Wolverine (it will be better in 3.1)?, 2 Roars?
Just curious how bad you want it. One player emailed me saying they want invisibility because its the best way to disengage. What if Contingency Meditation pulses a periodic check to roll you into hiding and a temporary invisibility in response to a pre-set condition (Stun, below 20% vitality, knocked prone). This would facilitate the "getting away" when injured much like the WM familiars - but different?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Before you complain about this, please understand that with 3.1 and the mastery skills you will be able to keep up Berserks more effectively (and potentially use meditations while engaged), bringing you closer to your magic counterparts in terms of capability.
What would you give up to get invisibility? Turtle, Swan or Serenity? Wolverine (it will be better in 3.1)?, 2 Roars?
Just curious how bad you want it. One player emailed me saying they want invisibility because its the best way to disengage. What if Contingency Meditation pulses a periodic check to roll you into hiding and a temporary invisibility in response to a pre-set condition (Stun, below 20% vitality, knocked prone). This would facilitate the "getting away" when injured much like the WM familiars - but different?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
MOCKERJB
Re: Panther or Whatever
11/02/2013 06:40 PM CDT
<<the guys into PvP (that I know of), from both sides of the table, are not worried at all about inviso making barbs OP in PvP.>>
I generally agree with this but maybe not for the reasons you'd think. The reason I could care less about barbs and inviso is because barbs are already exceptionally well-equipped to dominate PvP at level (at least 150+). For me personally, if I wasn't losing to a barb straight up already, inviso isn't going to help him/her. Or put another way, if I was going to beat the barb through everything else the barb has, inviso was not going to save him/her.
I wonder if it's really thief inviso specifically that the barb player advocates want? The re-pulsing etc there is considerably different and more powerful (in terms of screwing people up with parsing) than the MM versions. I find MM inviso far more useful for scouting and searching than PvP. For whatever power we attached to it for combat in the past, it's certainly more of a survival-ish skill/ability in my eyes these days. Barring thieves and "re-pulsing backstab/ambush" hax, it's just really not nearly as useful as it was for PvP.
I generally agree with this but maybe not for the reasons you'd think. The reason I could care less about barbs and inviso is because barbs are already exceptionally well-equipped to dominate PvP at level (at least 150+). For me personally, if I wasn't losing to a barb straight up already, inviso isn't going to help him/her. Or put another way, if I was going to beat the barb through everything else the barb has, inviso was not going to save him/her.
I wonder if it's really thief inviso specifically that the barb player advocates want? The re-pulsing etc there is considerably different and more powerful (in terms of screwing people up with parsing) than the MM versions. I find MM inviso far more useful for scouting and searching than PvP. For whatever power we attached to it for combat in the past, it's certainly more of a survival-ish skill/ability in my eyes these days. Barring thieves and "re-pulsing backstab/ambush" hax, it's just really not nearly as useful as it was for PvP.
