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As I arrived at the gondola platform, a fellow was speaking French. I have met several players over my years in Dragonrealms for whom English is not their first language, and their English is either not fluent or they are simply more efficient in their native tongue with those who are of the same origin. Assuming him to be one of these ESL players, I responded in kind, recalling dimly some of my high school French. Two other players whom I've never met, Yokuna and Shymysta, took issue with my reply to this fellow...perhaps they are new to the game and don't understand that not everyone is an English native, or perhaps they fear what they don't understand.
>Niktoahl says, "Il vaut mieux d'avoir a aim et a perdu alors avoir n'a jamais aim "
>Niktoahl says, "du tout."
g gonThe gondola stops on the platform and the door silently swings open.\
[Gondola, Cab South]
Mottled stains are worked into the wooden floor and seats of this small cab, darkening the windows to a thick black opacity. A spike of chill taints the air, the thinnest strand of some sickly-sweet metallic scent wrapping it. You also see a four-wheeled caravan with some stuff on it.
Obvious exits: north, out.
>Your steel-wheeled caravan came out of a weathered wooden gondola, following you.
>nRioch just arrived.
>Rioch just went north.
>[Gondola, Cab North]
Painted to a deep mist-twilight color, this tiny cab creaks to itself, an eerie and disconcerting sound. Seats flow out of the sides and bottom of the gondola, set there by lifesculptors who have been long forgotten. The light hardly pierces the tinted windows, leaving this place feeling all the more isolated and chillingly empty.
Also in the room: Rioch.
Obvious exits: south.
>Your steel-wheeled caravan arrives from the south, following you.
>hideYou see Rioch glance at you as you hide.
You blend in with your surroundings, but cannot shake the feeling that you drew attention to yourself.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>Ranger Niktoahl just arrived.
>Brute Shirnol just arrived.
>The gondola creaks as a wind pushes it back and forth.
>Apprentice Yokuna's group just arrived.
>Shyashaa closes her eyes for a moment and grows still.
>The gondola door swings shut of its own accord and pushes off.
>'Que?You ask, "Que?"
>Shymysta gives Yokuna a gentle poke in the ribs.
>Yokuna asks, "what jibberish are you speaking?"
>Shymysta says, "a language nae a our lands .. makin him fair game"
>Shymysta searches around for a moment.
>Shymysta searches around for a moment.
>Yokuna searches around for a moment.
>Shymysta searches around for a moment.
>Yokuna searches around for a moment.
>Shymysta searches around for a moment.
>Shymysta has spotted you!
>Shymysta points at you, ruining your hiding place.
>With the speed of a striking snake, Yokuna catches you in the throat with the edge of his flattened palm, knocking the air out of you and sending your vocal cords into shock!
>Niktoahl cringes.
>You notice Niktoahl slip into a hiding place.
>hideYou see Rioch glance at you as you hide.
You blend in with your surroundings, but cannot shake the feeling that you drew attention to yourself.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>Shymysta searches around for a moment.
>Shymysta searches around for a moment.
>Shymysta has spotted you!
>Shymysta points at you, ruining your hiding place.
>Shymysta turns to face you.
>quit
I can only assume they meant harm upon me, and shortly thereafter would have I'd have been beset upon. As I am a simple trader I took the wise man's exit.
English is a language "nae a our lands", as there is no England or America in Elanthia. We use it because we have no other way to communicate in a text-based game. Just as those who don't speak English have no other way to communicate. I feel it is everyone's right to do so, just as everyone has the right to attempt to sound like a drunken scotsman for roleplay reasons.
My question is, having known several non-English speaking players over the years, and assuming Simutronics doesn't discriminate against players based upon their nationality, is there a way we can educate our new and younger players as they come into the game that this sort of discrimination is not only against policy, but potentially illegal?
NZS3323
GRIM45
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/12/2004 10:00 PM CDT
>>>My question is, having known several non-English speaking players over the years, and assuming Simutronics doesn't discriminate against players based upon their nationality, is there a way we can educate our new and younger players as they come into the game that this sort of discrimination is not only against policy, but potentially illegal?
BWHAHAHAHHA!
Blue Fire
BWHAHAHAHHA!
Blue Fire
AKERMAN
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/12/2004 10:25 PM CDT
Oooh! Gray areas! I like these!
Okay... let's see... I suppose the immediate, obvious problem is that DragonRealms is an American game, and Simutronics is a private company, so there is no "requirement" to allow ESL players. However, there's also no intelligent reason for a player to want to strike a character speaking a foreign, real-life tongue. Then again, it does interrupt the continuity of the game environment to use non-English, non-IG languages in the game when it's obvious that the only language generally used in the Common Elanthian tongue is RL English.
Personally, I wouldn't take offense in any way, shape, or form to a speaker of a foreign language. However, there is no rule that I know of against thumping someone for speaking a foreign language (unless it becomes harrassment, but that's an over-arcing rule), so the thumpers were in no way at fault (technically). Attacking, of course, would have been unconsented PVP, but it didn't actually come to that.
As far as Simu's side goes, as a private American company they are under no obligation to take special steps to allow non-English speakers to use their product. My feeling is (though I doubt this is a law or a policy, but I fall somewhere along the Ultra-Conservative side of the political spectrum) Simu doesn't have an obligation to prevent discrimination of ESL speakers by their player base, as the company is incorporated in America, where the official language is English, and there are no laws against private individuals being discriminatory.
Ultimately, I suppose it falls into the realm of "business decision." Does Simu wish to accomodate ESL speakers for the extra profit, at the expense of a few of those irritated by this, or do they want to require English as the communication medium for the game (technically possible, and undoubtedly more efficient, as far as communication standards go) and eliminate ire and confusion.
Incidentally, it seems stupid to me to speak a foreign language in a roleplaying game where everyone else communicates in English (no matter what battered form) or an in-game language (Gamgweth, Haakish, etc.). However, I tend to just ignore it, like I ignore all the OOC banter and moronic diatribe over the gwethnet.
Of course, I'm not a lawyer or anything, so for all I know, I'm bendin' in the wind.
~Kashik,
...lover of debate and dissertation...
"Consider your bottom... two... little corn-cob spiky handle things."
~Mean Maelona Morlamgar
Okay... let's see... I suppose the immediate, obvious problem is that DragonRealms is an American game, and Simutronics is a private company, so there is no "requirement" to allow ESL players. However, there's also no intelligent reason for a player to want to strike a character speaking a foreign, real-life tongue. Then again, it does interrupt the continuity of the game environment to use non-English, non-IG languages in the game when it's obvious that the only language generally used in the Common Elanthian tongue is RL English.
Personally, I wouldn't take offense in any way, shape, or form to a speaker of a foreign language. However, there is no rule that I know of against thumping someone for speaking a foreign language (unless it becomes harrassment, but that's an over-arcing rule), so the thumpers were in no way at fault (technically). Attacking, of course, would have been unconsented PVP, but it didn't actually come to that.
As far as Simu's side goes, as a private American company they are under no obligation to take special steps to allow non-English speakers to use their product. My feeling is (though I doubt this is a law or a policy, but I fall somewhere along the Ultra-Conservative side of the political spectrum) Simu doesn't have an obligation to prevent discrimination of ESL speakers by their player base, as the company is incorporated in America, where the official language is English, and there are no laws against private individuals being discriminatory.
Ultimately, I suppose it falls into the realm of "business decision." Does Simu wish to accomodate ESL speakers for the extra profit, at the expense of a few of those irritated by this, or do they want to require English as the communication medium for the game (technically possible, and undoubtedly more efficient, as far as communication standards go) and eliminate ire and confusion.
Incidentally, it seems stupid to me to speak a foreign language in a roleplaying game where everyone else communicates in English (no matter what battered form) or an in-game language (Gamgweth, Haakish, etc.). However, I tend to just ignore it, like I ignore all the OOC banter and moronic diatribe over the gwethnet.
Of course, I'm not a lawyer or anything, so for all I know, I'm bendin' in the wind.
~Kashik,
...lover of debate and dissertation...
"Consider your bottom... two... little corn-cob spiky handle things."
~Mean Maelona Morlamgar
KEISERS
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/12/2004 10:32 PM CDT
Well I know that at one time it may still be that speaking in another language other than english or the languages provided in game was against policy and could be a warnable offense. I know that's the case on the boards still.
-Grid
-Grid
FOXMOON
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/12/2004 10:37 PM CDT
Grim45's "intelligent" post aside, I do agree with the last poster that it's not illegal to have no accomodation for ESL or non-English speaking players.
However, I did find it childish that those two, Yokuna and the other fellow, behaved in such a ridiculous way. Are they such purists that they can't handle a little stray from their "perfect" role-play world? If a helecopter flies overhead do they plug their ears?
On second thought, based upon what I see in the log the originator posted, they are just a couple of punks who look for any excuse for a fight. Their "role-play" amounted to one of those ubiquitous over-used "scottish" accents for the lazy and unimaginitive. The role-play argument doesn't wash.
Tzece
All the world will be your enemy,
Prince with a thousand enemies.
And if they catch you, they will kill you.
But first they must catch you.
However, I did find it childish that those two, Yokuna and the other fellow, behaved in such a ridiculous way. Are they such purists that they can't handle a little stray from their "perfect" role-play world? If a helecopter flies overhead do they plug their ears?
On second thought, based upon what I see in the log the originator posted, they are just a couple of punks who look for any excuse for a fight. Their "role-play" amounted to one of those ubiquitous over-used "scottish" accents for the lazy and unimaginitive. The role-play argument doesn't wash.
Tzece
All the world will be your enemy,
Prince with a thousand enemies.
And if they catch you, they will kill you.
But first they must catch you.
GRIM45
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/12/2004 11:08 PM CDT
>>Grim45's "intelligent" post aside, I do agree with the last poster that it's not illegal to have no accommodation for ESL or non-English speaking players.
Since his post was so well thought out, I figured I'd respond with a post as equally well thought out.
Blue Fire
Since his post was so well thought out, I figured I'd respond with a post as equally well thought out.
Blue Fire
LOFTONM1
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/12/2004 11:23 PM CDT
It's solely an issue of staff control, just like on the boards. If the staff can't understand what you just said, it's against the rules. Why? Because for all they know you and your friend are plotting some bombing mission like the World Trade Center. If something did happen and agents started knocking on Simu's doors, Simutronics could potentially be liable for damages because they weren't able to intervene.
I know I probably confused a heck of a lot of people, but it's really just about staff being able to make a judgement call on you and everyone else.
J'Lo, no that other one
I know I probably confused a heck of a lot of people, but it's really just about staff being able to make a judgement call on you and everyone else.
J'Lo, no that other one
GOSSFORD
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 12:18 AM CDT
Myself I would have gone ahead and let them kill me then reported them for the unconsented kill. and problem solved. Its not likely that they will be around long if they continue with actions along those lines.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
GONIFTHEEF
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 08:18 AM CDT
actually, if they thumped you, it gives you or your spouse consent.
as you are a trader, marry a big barb. then next time someone thumps you for speaking a "foreign tongue", get yer spouse to slaughter them.
:-)
if people can speak in front of others in prydaen, s'kra mur, haakish, or ilithic, then you should be allowed to speak whatever language you like.
Ani midabarit evreet. Kol tov.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
as you are a trader, marry a big barb. then next time someone thumps you for speaking a "foreign tongue", get yer spouse to slaughter them.
:-)
if people can speak in front of others in prydaen, s'kra mur, haakish, or ilithic, then you should be allowed to speak whatever language you like.
Ani midabarit evreet. Kol tov.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
ZOT-H
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 08:38 AM CDT
I have dealt with Yokuna quite a bit in front of the warmie guild, always polite to me. While I do not think it warranted a thump, logs can be modified.
I am not someone to go around thumping, some are, the worst case is you cannot talk for a bit, no big deal.
However, I will say that I find thier reaction over the top and uncalled for. A simple whisper of "Please take the non-common language to whispers" would have had a more positive result.
I am not someone to go around thumping, some are, the worst case is you cannot talk for a bit, no big deal.
However, I will say that I find thier reaction over the top and uncalled for. A simple whisper of "Please take the non-common language to whispers" would have had a more positive result.
DULCINIA
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 09:06 AM CDT
Well I've heard Shy's been hormonal lately. I guess there's proof.
Estrogen, anyone?
Oh and for the original poster: I'm sorry you had to deal with that nonsense. However, do understand that we're not supposed to speak in foreign tongues other than stuff like Toggish or Gamgweth.
~Dulcinia
She hates time
Make it stop
When did Motley Crue become classic rock?
And when did Ozzy become an actor?
Please make this stop
Stop!
Estrogen, anyone?
Oh and for the original poster: I'm sorry you had to deal with that nonsense. However, do understand that we're not supposed to speak in foreign tongues other than stuff like Toggish or Gamgweth.
~Dulcinia
She hates time
Make it stop
When did Motley Crue become classic rock?
And when did Ozzy become an actor?
Please make this stop
Stop!
ALLGUILDS
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 02:31 PM CDT
As said, the board moderators and game hosts and gamemasters need to be able to understand what is being said. Also, English = Common while French, Spanish, German, Tagalog, etc = OOC.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
~Herm Albright
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
~Herm Albright
SAKHARA
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 06:41 PM CDT
>As said, the board moderators and game hosts and gamemasters need to be able to understand what is being said.
It's not as if they don't have someone on staff who can read it. Maybe not on-site, but where I grew up it wasn't uncommon in any decent sized group of people (>20-30) to have at least French, German, Spanish and Italian at full fluency. Often enough we had Chinese (Mandarin), Russian, Japanese, Farsi, Korean, Laotian and who only knew what else with enough skill to be able to pick it out of text.
>Also, English = Common while French, Spanish, German, Tagalog, etc = OOC.
This, to me, is very sad. I like the 'reality' of hearing other languages on a daily basis. When I run my errands at work, I hear Yiddish, Russian, German, Korean and a whole slew of other languages. Elanthia has always been rather flat to me because, other than names, it's all English. Blech. Makes my 'ears' ring after a while.
>Shymysta says, "a language nae a our lands .. makin him fair game"
If you're different, you're fair game. That's life, unfortunately. If you're not big enough, as a character, to fight back, you're anyone's meat. At least in Elanthia it's just bits not real blood.
<sarcasm> Great lesson to teach the children who play this game though. Any mention of gender differences is warnable but attacking someone for being different/foreign is lauded. </sarcasm>
Dio, player of
It's not as if they don't have someone on staff who can read it. Maybe not on-site, but where I grew up it wasn't uncommon in any decent sized group of people (>20-30) to have at least French, German, Spanish and Italian at full fluency. Often enough we had Chinese (Mandarin), Russian, Japanese, Farsi, Korean, Laotian and who only knew what else with enough skill to be able to pick it out of text.
>Also, English = Common while French, Spanish, German, Tagalog, etc = OOC.
This, to me, is very sad. I like the 'reality' of hearing other languages on a daily basis. When I run my errands at work, I hear Yiddish, Russian, German, Korean and a whole slew of other languages. Elanthia has always been rather flat to me because, other than names, it's all English. Blech. Makes my 'ears' ring after a while.
>Shymysta says, "a language nae a our lands .. makin him fair game"
If you're different, you're fair game. That's life, unfortunately. If you're not big enough, as a character, to fight back, you're anyone's meat. At least in Elanthia it's just bits not real blood.
<sarcasm> Great lesson to teach the children who play this game though. Any mention of gender differences is warnable but attacking someone for being different/foreign is lauded. </sarcasm>
Dio, player of
ALLGRINNELL
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 06:50 PM CDT
Dio, you must have grown up in a very ethnically diverse area. Where I grew up, almost no one spoke a language outside of English, unless you count taking high school Spanish classes.
As a student of a couple languages I agree that it's nice to be surrounded by foreign speakers and to make an effort to understand as much as you can. But to expect a private company to have a bunch of people on staff that would be qualified as translators is a bit silly, especially in this country. Yes, there probably is at least one person on Simu staff that can speak French. But in order for the vulgarity policy to be enforceable, either everyone needs to always speak English or they need to have translators for every language online all the time. Guess which is more cost-effective.
Also...
>>attacking someone for being different/foreign is lauded.
Actually, any unconsented attack is warnable and can lead to lockout. Had this person not broken policy by combat logging, the person who was about to attack him probably would have been warned.
As a student of a couple languages I agree that it's nice to be surrounded by foreign speakers and to make an effort to understand as much as you can. But to expect a private company to have a bunch of people on staff that would be qualified as translators is a bit silly, especially in this country. Yes, there probably is at least one person on Simu staff that can speak French. But in order for the vulgarity policy to be enforceable, either everyone needs to always speak English or they need to have translators for every language online all the time. Guess which is more cost-effective.
Also...
>>attacking someone for being different/foreign is lauded.
Actually, any unconsented attack is warnable and can lead to lockout. Had this person not broken policy by combat logging, the person who was about to attack him probably would have been warned.
DULCINIA
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 07:39 PM CDT
Oh please. She faced him and he left, and you're saying HE broke policy?
~Dulcinia
She hates time
Make it stop
When did Motley Crue become classic rock?
And when did Ozzy become an actor?
Please make this stop
Stop!
~Dulcinia
She hates time
Make it stop
When did Motley Crue become classic rock?
And when did Ozzy become an actor?
Please make this stop
Stop!
ALLGRINNELL
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 09:08 PM CDT
Yup, it's against policy to log in order to avoid conflict. Not saying she wasn't about to break policy, it looks like she was. But her messing up doesn't mean he didn't, also.
FYRETHORNE
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 09:33 PM CDT
But you can log during a non-violent argument if you get bored of it. And she didn't have consent she obviously wasn't going to randomly attack him and break policy, so it was ok to log.
I don't see any reason it would be considered a problem to log if the rule you would be breaking would only effect the situation if someone else violated policy.
I don't see any reason it would be considered a problem to log if the rule you would be breaking would only effect the situation if someone else violated policy.
CELTARLOMION
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 10:15 PM CDT
I dont see a problem here. You aren't supposed to be speaking in a language that no else can understand. English is indeed the language in use here. Staff and the players are not trained to understand anything else. I had thought that it was against policy to speak anything but english.
All I see is Shymstra and Yokuna silencing someone violating policy. They probably assumed you were some smart arse kid talking dirty in french.
Jim
All I see is Shymstra and Yokuna silencing someone violating policy. They probably assumed you were some smart arse kid talking dirty in french.
Jim
IORUS
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 10:44 PM CDT
"All I see is Shymstra and Yokuna silencing someone violating policy. They probably assumed you were some smart arse kid talking dirty in french."
>Niktoahl says, "Il vaut mieux d'avoir a aim et a perdu alors avoir n'a jamais aim "
>Niktoahl says, "du tout."
Actually, this is nothing dirty, however it isn't proper french either, but in case you want to know, it translates to: It is better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all.
This seems rather innocent; notwithstanding, as a player whose native tongue isn't english I am familiar with the language regulations in DR and understand the logic behind them.
Ioris, the player behind.
>Niktoahl says, "Il vaut mieux d'avoir a aim et a perdu alors avoir n'a jamais aim "
>Niktoahl says, "du tout."
Actually, this is nothing dirty, however it isn't proper french either, but in case you want to know, it translates to: It is better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all.
This seems rather innocent; notwithstanding, as a player whose native tongue isn't english I am familiar with the language regulations in DR and understand the logic behind them.
Ioris, the player behind.
MIKEM1
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/13/2004 11:10 PM CDT
<<Had this person not broken policy by combat logging,
The person in question didn't break policy. It is against policy to log out of combat in the hunting grounds to save your skin. It is against policy to log out to avoid a conflict that you willingly got yourself into. Logging out to avoid abuse or harassment by another player is not against policy.
~The player of Nevynral
The person in question didn't break policy. It is against policy to log out of combat in the hunting grounds to save your skin. It is against policy to log out to avoid a conflict that you willingly got yourself into. Logging out to avoid abuse or harassment by another player is not against policy.
~The player of Nevynral
ITAINTATHING
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 06:37 AM CDT
>This, to me, is very sad. I like the 'reality' of hearing other languages on a daily basis. When I run my errands at work, I hear Yiddish, Russian, German, Korean and a whole slew of other languages. Elanthia has always been rather flat to me because, other than names, it's all English. Blech. Makes my 'ears' ring after a while.
But this game is "fantasy," and in "fantasy" games languages that don't exist within the "fantasy" world are typically frowned upon when spoken. It kind of shatters the roleplaying environment when someone ambles in rattling off Mandarin or something. I mean, please.
And yeah, as someone touched on earlier: Simu is under no obligation to hire a team of people versed in all the world's languages who can monitor the game 24/7, then proceed to pluck out and decipher the various languages spoken. If you play an English game, expect to speak English in it. CRAZY CONCEPT!
Finally, regarding the thumping: not entirely unwarranted, though I would've preferred to have whispered first and/or express my puzzlement at what I was "hearing." If the person still didn't stop, then a thump would've been more appropriate. I do think that both Yokuna and Shymysta have a pretty skewed view of policy if they think someone saying "Que?" makes them attackable.
-Luty
But this game is "fantasy," and in "fantasy" games languages that don't exist within the "fantasy" world are typically frowned upon when spoken. It kind of shatters the roleplaying environment when someone ambles in rattling off Mandarin or something. I mean, please.
And yeah, as someone touched on earlier: Simu is under no obligation to hire a team of people versed in all the world's languages who can monitor the game 24/7, then proceed to pluck out and decipher the various languages spoken. If you play an English game, expect to speak English in it. CRAZY CONCEPT!
Finally, regarding the thumping: not entirely unwarranted, though I would've preferred to have whispered first and/or express my puzzlement at what I was "hearing." If the person still didn't stop, then a thump would've been more appropriate. I do think that both Yokuna and Shymysta have a pretty skewed view of policy if they think someone saying "Que?" makes them attackable.
-Luty
GORTDAY
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 07:24 AM CDT
In real life, When you go out on the street and hear someone speaking to someone else in a foreign tongue do you automatically go up to them and demand that they speak english so that you can understand them? Would you punch some guy's lights out because he wasn't speaking english, or perhaps he was even speaking to a friend in a language they'd made up. Just because you personally don't understand what someone is saying, doesn't make them wrong. I've had friends who've had their own (sometimes made-up) languages that they use to communicate with their girlfriend/boyfriend or best friend or whatnot; I've gone into stores where the owner/workers speak a different language than english and I've never once gone up to them and demanded that they speak only english around me. why should I? What right do I have to tell others how to think, act, speak or do anything other than be decent human beings?
Yes this is a game, an english speaking game. No, I do not believe that gives anyone the right to decide that someone speaking a language that they can't understand is thumpable/killable. At best it deserved a whisper to the tune of "hey, you're really being really OOC here, and I don't appreciate it, could you tone it down a bit?" (followed by thumping/other appropriate actions if and only if the OOC person did not comply or was being rude). It seems to me that Shymysta and Yokuna were out to get someone, and if not the trader, it would have been someone else. Either way it's petty and retarded.
I've dealt with/consoled people in the aftermath of Shymysta's wake before and personally, I do not like him/her one bit. That's my personal opinion.
I Live in Germany. I do not speak german. I don't live here by choice or I certainly would have learned the language before I came (as it is now I am struggling to learn the language on the fly). I don't expect everyone here to understand me when I try to communicate my needs and wants but I am always polite to them and I find that most are very polite to me. If someone came up to me and started to beat me up because I did not speak German all the time I certainly would haul-behind out of there and alert the authorities. I wouldn't stick around to get pounded. Just because not everyone can understand me doesn't mean I'm not allowed to speak. For all they know I could be planning a terrorist attack but they assume that I'm a decent person and let me be.
Yes, I acknowledge that you aren't supposed to speak any language other than those that pertain to the game and that the default "common" language is english but I don't understand why people can't be cut some slack and why general human decency can't be shown by people towards others, even if those others aren't exactly the cardboard cut-out of what their idea of "right" is?
Why's DR got to be so Gods-darned discriminatory? I had hoped that within such a small population, people in general would be much nicer, and to an extent, I have found that to be so; but one bad apple can (and almost always does) spoil the bunch.
Gortday
Watch out, I'm comming, and when I get to you it's not going to be pretty!
Yes this is a game, an english speaking game. No, I do not believe that gives anyone the right to decide that someone speaking a language that they can't understand is thumpable/killable. At best it deserved a whisper to the tune of "hey, you're really being really OOC here, and I don't appreciate it, could you tone it down a bit?" (followed by thumping/other appropriate actions if and only if the OOC person did not comply or was being rude). It seems to me that Shymysta and Yokuna were out to get someone, and if not the trader, it would have been someone else. Either way it's petty and retarded.
I've dealt with/consoled people in the aftermath of Shymysta's wake before and personally, I do not like him/her one bit. That's my personal opinion.
I Live in Germany. I do not speak german. I don't live here by choice or I certainly would have learned the language before I came (as it is now I am struggling to learn the language on the fly). I don't expect everyone here to understand me when I try to communicate my needs and wants but I am always polite to them and I find that most are very polite to me. If someone came up to me and started to beat me up because I did not speak German all the time I certainly would haul-behind out of there and alert the authorities. I wouldn't stick around to get pounded. Just because not everyone can understand me doesn't mean I'm not allowed to speak. For all they know I could be planning a terrorist attack but they assume that I'm a decent person and let me be.
Yes, I acknowledge that you aren't supposed to speak any language other than those that pertain to the game and that the default "common" language is english but I don't understand why people can't be cut some slack and why general human decency can't be shown by people towards others, even if those others aren't exactly the cardboard cut-out of what their idea of "right" is?
Why's DR got to be so Gods-darned discriminatory? I had hoped that within such a small population, people in general would be much nicer, and to an extent, I have found that to be so; but one bad apple can (and almost always does) spoil the bunch.
Gortday
Watch out, I'm comming, and when I get to you it's not going to be pretty!
YUCELEM
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 07:59 AM CDT
Heh, comparing DR to real life is pointless in this topic.
English is not my native language either, and I wasn't very efficient in it when I first started DR 4-5 years ago, but I never wandered around speaking my own language in game.
They have to accept this is an English game. If they really want to play but have problems with English, they should RP a very quiet person as they try to understand and learn more. That's what I did.
~Aeth
English is not my native language either, and I wasn't very efficient in it when I first started DR 4-5 years ago, but I never wandered around speaking my own language in game.
They have to accept this is an English game. If they really want to play but have problems with English, they should RP a very quiet person as they try to understand and learn more. That's what I did.
~Aeth
AKERMAN
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 09:33 AM CDT
<<but I don't understand why people can't be cut some slack and why general human decency can't be shown by people towards others>>
While I agree with you, this is hardly a problem with DR itself, but rather with human nature. This very debate has stretched over hundreds, if not thousands, of years, and is probably beyond the scope of these message boards.
However, to draw an analogy to try to bring the logic behind this into a more understandable light:
Speaking a foreign language in DR is like speaking any dialectical or colloquial variation of English in DR. While technically against policy, most people don't care that much, and I'm surprised that these two went of on someone for something as insignificant as this, but I don't know them personally.
My suggestion would be to restrain the use of foreign languages to a few words thrown in for flavor. It's less likely to bother people, and stylistically, it has more flair. As far as speaking entirely in a foreign language, it's like someone wandering around speaking in modern ebonics, or even whatever we call the redneck dialect nowadays. Even though these are technically variations on the accepted language, English, no one likes to here some medieval mage wandering around saying "Yo, homey. Me an' my homeboys was at my hizzy, and these fly honeys come by and was like "Yo!". And we was like, "Hey, hos, you want to come in and train some magizzy skillizzies?""
~Kashik
"Consider your bottom... two... little corn-cob spiky handle things."
~Mean Maelona Morlamgar
While I agree with you, this is hardly a problem with DR itself, but rather with human nature. This very debate has stretched over hundreds, if not thousands, of years, and is probably beyond the scope of these message boards.
However, to draw an analogy to try to bring the logic behind this into a more understandable light:
Speaking a foreign language in DR is like speaking any dialectical or colloquial variation of English in DR. While technically against policy, most people don't care that much, and I'm surprised that these two went of on someone for something as insignificant as this, but I don't know them personally.
My suggestion would be to restrain the use of foreign languages to a few words thrown in for flavor. It's less likely to bother people, and stylistically, it has more flair. As far as speaking entirely in a foreign language, it's like someone wandering around speaking in modern ebonics, or even whatever we call the redneck dialect nowadays. Even though these are technically variations on the accepted language, English, no one likes to here some medieval mage wandering around saying "Yo, homey. Me an' my homeboys was at my hizzy, and these fly honeys come by and was like "Yo!". And we was like, "Hey, hos, you want to come in and train some magizzy skillizzies?""
~Kashik
"Consider your bottom... two... little corn-cob spiky handle things."
~Mean Maelona Morlamgar
ZOT-H
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 10:59 AM CDT
>>"Yo, homey. Me an' my homeboys was at my hizzy, and these fly honeys come by and was like "Yo!". And we was like, "Hey, hos, you want to come in and train some magizzy skillizzies?""
>>~Kashik
I am tempted to make this a sig line, made me laugh a lot ^_^
~Maxxwel
>>~Kashik
I am tempted to make this a sig line, made me laugh a lot ^_^
~Maxxwel
BARIEN
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 01:12 PM CDT
>>Actually, any unconsented attack is warnable and can lead to lockout. Had this person not broken policy by combat logging, the person who was about to attack him probably would have been warned.
What violation? Logging to avoid the attack that they did not wish to involved in to begin with? There was no policy violation if the log was not edited to not show something. The combat logging refers to hunting grounds, and besides it was at missile range so was not engaged yet.
Brabs
Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.
"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"
[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"
Your mind hears Gelicast thinking, "shoot the gelv cyclops, not gelicast"
What violation? Logging to avoid the attack that they did not wish to involved in to begin with? There was no policy violation if the log was not edited to not show something. The combat logging refers to hunting grounds, and besides it was at missile range so was not engaged yet.
Brabs
Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.
"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"
[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"
Your mind hears Gelicast thinking, "shoot the gelv cyclops, not gelicast"
ALLGUILDS
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 03:30 PM CDT
>no one likes to here some medieval mage wandering around saying "Yo, homey. Me an' my homeboys was at my hizzy, and these fly honeys come by and was like "Yo!". And we was like, "Hey, hos, you want to come in and train some magizzy skillizzies?""
You obviously have not seen or heard a certain ranger who has been/was running around.
And yes, comparing DR to real life is like comparing me to Brad Pitt. We are both human beings, but that is where the comparison ends. It is true you do not go up to some French tourist who is speaking French and whack them across the throat, demanding that they speak English. But if you owned a private company (like Dragonrealms) and they came in and spoke French instead of English, you could ask them to leave if they refused to stop. The people Dragonrealms do not care if you use French, German or any other language when speaking amongst yourselves in a locked room or in whispers. They may not even care if you are completely alone (although I am sure they would rather you not, much like swearing). But if you go up to someone and say something to them in a language other than "Common," the language you speak in game, or any other in game language, it is COMPLETELY out of character and could be viewed as harassment since I have no clue if you are telling me my butt is cute or that you want to kill me and hunt me down and you know where I live and are looking in my window right now*.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
~Herm Albright
*I don't know if it truly can be viewed as harassment, I doubt it, but I would probably thump someone who came up to me and spoke an OOC language and then try to get a cleric to flush the demon from within them.
You obviously have not seen or heard a certain ranger who has been/was running around.
And yes, comparing DR to real life is like comparing me to Brad Pitt. We are both human beings, but that is where the comparison ends. It is true you do not go up to some French tourist who is speaking French and whack them across the throat, demanding that they speak English. But if you owned a private company (like Dragonrealms) and they came in and spoke French instead of English, you could ask them to leave if they refused to stop. The people Dragonrealms do not care if you use French, German or any other language when speaking amongst yourselves in a locked room or in whispers. They may not even care if you are completely alone (although I am sure they would rather you not, much like swearing). But if you go up to someone and say something to them in a language other than "Common," the language you speak in game, or any other in game language, it is COMPLETELY out of character and could be viewed as harassment since I have no clue if you are telling me my butt is cute or that you want to kill me and hunt me down and you know where I live and are looking in my window right now*.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
~Herm Albright
*I don't know if it truly can be viewed as harassment, I doubt it, but I would probably thump someone who came up to me and spoke an OOC language and then try to get a cleric to flush the demon from within them.
ARCELEBOR
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 03:37 PM CDT
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.
<< It is true you do not go up to some French tourist who is speaking French and whack them across the throat, demanding that they speak English.
Oddly enough, there are people who would prefer that.
<< But if you go up to someone and say something to them in a language other than "Common," the language you speak in game, or any other in game language, it is COMPLETELY out of character and could be viewed as harassment since I have no clue if you are telling me my butt is cute or that you want to kill me and hunt me down and you know where I live and are looking in my window right now*.
This is exactly correct. Sidenote, I do know where you live and am looking in your window right now. <duck>
Arcelebor
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
<< It is true you do not go up to some French tourist who is speaking French and whack them across the throat, demanding that they speak English.
Oddly enough, there are people who would prefer that.
<< But if you go up to someone and say something to them in a language other than "Common," the language you speak in game, or any other in game language, it is COMPLETELY out of character and could be viewed as harassment since I have no clue if you are telling me my butt is cute or that you want to kill me and hunt me down and you know where I live and are looking in my window right now*.
This is exactly correct. Sidenote, I do know where you live and am looking in your window right now. <duck>
Arcelebor
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
SAKHARA
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 05:05 PM CDT
>But if you owned a private company (like Dragonrealms) and they came in and spoke French instead of English, you could ask them to leave if they refused to stop.
And here's the real issue. If you had any sense as a businessman, however, you wouldn't let one of your customers physically eject them from your shop. If you had even more sense, you'd ask, politely, "Do you speak English?" if you couldn't figure out what they were talking about.
I'm about as bright as a 15 watt light bulb, quite honestly, and even I can tell when someone's swearing in French, German, Russian, Italian or Spanish. I'm far from fluent in any of those languages. However I have friends who have working fluency in all of them, and almost everyone I know has at least working knowledge of one or two other languages than English. We're not an exceptional crew. Ordinary folks. Many are blue collar, hourly, grunts working service industry jobs. <shrug> Working knowledge of foreign languages, enough to tell if someone's being a jerk, isn't rare unless you live in the middle of nowhere USA.
Heck, there's a ton of British English vulgarity all over the place in DR. I've blanched at some of it. (Although I have wondered if it was a joke of Maelona's in places. <g>)
>it is COMPLETELY out of character
This is what I completely disagree with. Issues of game management aside, a few lines of what to my character are gibberish are absolutely no different than someone speaking Rakhash, Prydaen or Gorbesh. About the only thing he thinks that's odd about 'em is that he can understand bits and pieces of what's being said in other Earth languages rather than the Elanthian languages where he has no idea. (This seems backwards to him, since he, himself, has heard far more of the Elanthian languages.)
Dio, player of
And here's the real issue. If you had any sense as a businessman, however, you wouldn't let one of your customers physically eject them from your shop. If you had even more sense, you'd ask, politely, "Do you speak English?" if you couldn't figure out what they were talking about.
I'm about as bright as a 15 watt light bulb, quite honestly, and even I can tell when someone's swearing in French, German, Russian, Italian or Spanish. I'm far from fluent in any of those languages. However I have friends who have working fluency in all of them, and almost everyone I know has at least working knowledge of one or two other languages than English. We're not an exceptional crew. Ordinary folks. Many are blue collar, hourly, grunts working service industry jobs. <shrug> Working knowledge of foreign languages, enough to tell if someone's being a jerk, isn't rare unless you live in the middle of nowhere USA.
Heck, there's a ton of British English vulgarity all over the place in DR. I've blanched at some of it. (Although I have wondered if it was a joke of Maelona's in places. <g>)
>it is COMPLETELY out of character
This is what I completely disagree with. Issues of game management aside, a few lines of what to my character are gibberish are absolutely no different than someone speaking Rakhash, Prydaen or Gorbesh. About the only thing he thinks that's odd about 'em is that he can understand bits and pieces of what's being said in other Earth languages rather than the Elanthian languages where he has no idea. (This seems backwards to him, since he, himself, has heard far more of the Elanthian languages.)
Dio, player of
LOFTONM1
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 05:39 PM CDT
>>I don't know if it truly can be viewed as harassment, I doubt it, but I would probably thump someone who came up to me and spoke an OOC language and then try to get a cleric to flush the demon from within them.
Regardless of the language used, if you went up to someone and said exactly that you most definitely would get pulled upstairs if someone saw it or reported it. While I don't think that's the case in Missouri, some states also require the managing entity to report you to the police or other authorities for it and failing to do so will bring at least a civil if not a criminal suit against them (it happened to doctors in...Georgia?...recently).
J'Lo, no that other one
Regardless of the language used, if you went up to someone and said exactly that you most definitely would get pulled upstairs if someone saw it or reported it. While I don't think that's the case in Missouri, some states also require the managing entity to report you to the police or other authorities for it and failing to do so will bring at least a civil if not a criminal suit against them (it happened to doctors in...Georgia?...recently).
J'Lo, no that other one
SAKHARA
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 06:24 PM CDT
The basic problem is that nowhere on the DR site other than the boards, buried in threads like this, does it say you must speak American English IG. <shrug> I honestly don't think it's that big a deal. Maybe it is because I'm so used to speaking/hearing bits and pieces of other languages, they just don't really sink in as something to take any note of.
Oh well, Plus_la_change,_plus_la_meme_change. <g>
Dio, player of
Oh well, Plus_la_change,_plus_la_meme_change. <g>
Dio, player of
ITAINTATHING
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 06:51 PM CDT
>The basic problem is that nowhere on the DR site other than the boards, buried in threads like this, does it say you must speak American English IG.
Most likely because it's something that's automatically assumed by the playerbase. Most people don't need to be led by the hand through what's generally deemed acceptable and what isn't. While you may not have a problem seeing people speaking foreign languages not suited for a fantasy setting, the bottom line is that it's very OOC and many others aren't as able to brush it off.
If you must absolutely require some kind of written form of this policy, I'd cite this:
"When one individual is reducing the enjoyment of other players by out-of-character behavior (be it by speech, actions, ESP messages, or any other method of communication within DragonRealms), this may be considered as disruptive behavior. Judgment of what is and is not disruptive is entirely at the discretion of Simutronics."
There's also this little gem, listed under the Terms of Service on the main website:
"(Users will not) Engage in "disruptive behavior" in chat areas, game areas, bulletin boards, or any other area of the Services. Disruptive behavior shall be deemed to include, but will not be limited to, conduct which purposefully interferes with the normal flow of dialogue in a Service area. Disruptive behavior shall also include, but not be limited to, commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements."
Wouldn't speaking a foreign language constitute disrupting the normal flow of dialogue?
I think you make good points sometimes, Dio, but other times you argue the strangest things I've ever seen. Can you honestly sit there and claim that speaking non-English shouldn't be an issue whatsoever and that it isn't OOC? Because, by the same token, I should be able to come up to you IG and ask you if you've heard of the renowned bardess Britney Spears from America, a land distant and not yet discovered.
Using your kind of logic, almost any kind of OOC speak could be justified in some way. You have to have commonsense and draw the line somewhere.
-Luty
Most likely because it's something that's automatically assumed by the playerbase. Most people don't need to be led by the hand through what's generally deemed acceptable and what isn't. While you may not have a problem seeing people speaking foreign languages not suited for a fantasy setting, the bottom line is that it's very OOC and many others aren't as able to brush it off.
If you must absolutely require some kind of written form of this policy, I'd cite this:
"When one individual is reducing the enjoyment of other players by out-of-character behavior (be it by speech, actions, ESP messages, or any other method of communication within DragonRealms), this may be considered as disruptive behavior. Judgment of what is and is not disruptive is entirely at the discretion of Simutronics."
There's also this little gem, listed under the Terms of Service on the main website:
"(Users will not) Engage in "disruptive behavior" in chat areas, game areas, bulletin boards, or any other area of the Services. Disruptive behavior shall be deemed to include, but will not be limited to, conduct which purposefully interferes with the normal flow of dialogue in a Service area. Disruptive behavior shall also include, but not be limited to, commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements."
Wouldn't speaking a foreign language constitute disrupting the normal flow of dialogue?
I think you make good points sometimes, Dio, but other times you argue the strangest things I've ever seen. Can you honestly sit there and claim that speaking non-English shouldn't be an issue whatsoever and that it isn't OOC? Because, by the same token, I should be able to come up to you IG and ask you if you've heard of the renowned bardess Britney Spears from America, a land distant and not yet discovered.
Using your kind of logic, almost any kind of OOC speak could be justified in some way. You have to have commonsense and draw the line somewhere.
-Luty
DULCINIA
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 08:45 PM CDT
>>>And yes, comparing DR to real life is like comparing me to Brad Pitt. We are both human beings, but that is where the comparison ends.
And there go all my fantasies of you. Just... out the window.
<weep>
~Dulcinia
(Rikulf dances around, waves his arms around, and points at Dulcinia over his shoulder)
Rikulf says, "it's barb talk"
Rikulf says, "you wouldn't understand"
And there go all my fantasies of you. Just... out the window.
<weep>
~Dulcinia
(Rikulf dances around, waves his arms around, and points at Dulcinia over his shoulder)
Rikulf says, "it's barb talk"
Rikulf says, "you wouldn't understand"
SAKHARA
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 09:13 PM CDT
>Most likely because it's something that's automatically assumed by the playerbase.
Here's the catch we're running into. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were something that could be assumed. (You do know how to spell 'assume', don't you? <g>) Particularly since it seems there are two very distinct groups. Those who don't really notice languages other than English and those for whom it's so unusual as to be as OOC as talking about an American pop star.
>the bottom line is that it's very OOC
OOC to some players, not all, but to the characters? Dio can't tell the difference between Serbo-Croatian and Gorbesh. To him they're both just as foreign. I think that's why it doesn't seem like such a huge deal, any more than typos. (Which to him are slips of the tongue or speech impediments, as in the case of his husband who can't figure out the shift key to save his life.)
And this is why I quibble over the point, really. Out of character? No, not really. Out of genre, out of game, yes, certainly, I can see that from what many people here are saying. But characer, no. The character would have to know it's from somewhere other than Elanthia, and the character has no way of knowing that except through player knowledge.
>Wouldn't speaking a foreign language constitute disrupting the normal flow of dialogue?
Um, then we wouldn't have foreign languages in DR that many characters couldn't understand. This also brings up the issue with people who play mute characters or characters who only speak their own native tongue, not common. Should they be forced to speak English out loud so as not to inconvenience people around them?
>Because, by the same token, I should be able to come up to you IG and ask you if you've heard of the renowned bardess Britney Spears from America, a land distant and not yet discovered.
The thing is that this is in words Dio can understand and don't make sense to him. French, on the other hand, he can't understand and has no reference for. Think of the difference between, "Fred swings the bog into the arbelest." and "Hido woth poinap khori dropark." The first sounds like something that should make sense and doesn't. The latter might well make sense to someone and so doesn't boggle me.
>Using your kind of logic, almost any kind of OOC speak could be justified in some way.
Not at all. OOC speech is talking about something that doesn't exist for the characters. A language other than American English ranges from close enough as to make almost no difference, such as British English, to Oz, to the weird 'dialects' folks put on, to true foreign languages and at the bottom end, to pure gibberish when someone gets so potted they pass out on the keyboard. (Or their cat/kid gets at it.) Bluntly, I've picked up a few words of dialect that could be considered quite OOC, such as using 'hon' as a form of punctuation. <g>
I guess for me, the bottom line is that it's extremely disruptive to see someone attacked for something my characters know nothing about. Sure, report it if you feel that strongly about it. <shrug> I also don't like people talking about policy, consent or other OOG issues in front of my characters. It drives 'em a little batty at best. And that puts this squarely in the realm of etiquitte. I think it's ultimately counterproductive to throw a public fit about out of game issues in front of characters.
Dio, player of
Here's the catch we're running into. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were something that could be assumed. (You do know how to spell 'assume', don't you? <g>) Particularly since it seems there are two very distinct groups. Those who don't really notice languages other than English and those for whom it's so unusual as to be as OOC as talking about an American pop star.
>the bottom line is that it's very OOC
OOC to some players, not all, but to the characters? Dio can't tell the difference between Serbo-Croatian and Gorbesh. To him they're both just as foreign. I think that's why it doesn't seem like such a huge deal, any more than typos. (Which to him are slips of the tongue or speech impediments, as in the case of his husband who can't figure out the shift key to save his life.)
And this is why I quibble over the point, really. Out of character? No, not really. Out of genre, out of game, yes, certainly, I can see that from what many people here are saying. But characer, no. The character would have to know it's from somewhere other than Elanthia, and the character has no way of knowing that except through player knowledge.
>Wouldn't speaking a foreign language constitute disrupting the normal flow of dialogue?
Um, then we wouldn't have foreign languages in DR that many characters couldn't understand. This also brings up the issue with people who play mute characters or characters who only speak their own native tongue, not common. Should they be forced to speak English out loud so as not to inconvenience people around them?
>Because, by the same token, I should be able to come up to you IG and ask you if you've heard of the renowned bardess Britney Spears from America, a land distant and not yet discovered.
The thing is that this is in words Dio can understand and don't make sense to him. French, on the other hand, he can't understand and has no reference for. Think of the difference between, "Fred swings the bog into the arbelest." and "Hido woth poinap khori dropark." The first sounds like something that should make sense and doesn't. The latter might well make sense to someone and so doesn't boggle me.
>Using your kind of logic, almost any kind of OOC speak could be justified in some way.
Not at all. OOC speech is talking about something that doesn't exist for the characters. A language other than American English ranges from close enough as to make almost no difference, such as British English, to Oz, to the weird 'dialects' folks put on, to true foreign languages and at the bottom end, to pure gibberish when someone gets so potted they pass out on the keyboard. (Or their cat/kid gets at it.) Bluntly, I've picked up a few words of dialect that could be considered quite OOC, such as using 'hon' as a form of punctuation. <g>
I guess for me, the bottom line is that it's extremely disruptive to see someone attacked for something my characters know nothing about. Sure, report it if you feel that strongly about it. <shrug> I also don't like people talking about policy, consent or other OOG issues in front of my characters. It drives 'em a little batty at best. And that puts this squarely in the realm of etiquitte. I think it's ultimately counterproductive to throw a public fit about out of game issues in front of characters.
Dio, player of
AMAGAIM
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 11:11 PM CDT
>>>OOC to some players, not all, but to the characters?
Not to nitpick, Dio, but how can a character determine what's OOC as they are solely IC? OOC determination can only be done by us players, as we're the only ones with a reference point to refer to.
Amagaim; the player of,
Those destined to die greet you
Take your sword
And dance, dance, dance, dance!
Dance the dance of death!
--- Das Ich, Kain und Abel (translation)
Not to nitpick, Dio, but how can a character determine what's OOC as they are solely IC? OOC determination can only be done by us players, as we're the only ones with a reference point to refer to.
Amagaim; the player of,
Those destined to die greet you
Take your sword
And dance, dance, dance, dance!
Dance the dance of death!
--- Das Ich, Kain und Abel (translation)
ITAINTATHING
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/14/2004 11:19 PM CDT
>Here's the catch we're running into. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were something that could be assumed. (You do know how to spell 'assume', don't you? <g>)
Okay, I see we're playing semantics. It's a fair statement to say that -most- people playing an English-based game fully expect to speak English in it. And where did I spell assume wrong?
>OOC to some players, not all, but to the characters? Dio can't tell the difference between Serbo-Croatian and Gorbesh. To him they're both just as foreign. I think that's why it doesn't seem like such a huge deal, any more than typos.
Speaking French cannot possibly be viewed as being in-character being that the language doesn't exist in DragonRealms. How are you not seeing that? There's a difference between foreign languages that exist within DR and ones that exist in real life. Regarding typos: there's a suspension of disbelief here. We, the players, realize that the person behind that character isn't always going to type everything immaculately, thus our characters don't nitpick over people's grammatical or typographical errors.
Typos are also something that can't be helped. Speaking in a blatantly OOC/OOG/take your pick manner can be.
>And this is why I quibble over the point, really. Out of character? No, not really. Out of genre, out of game, yes, certainly
At least you admit to quibbling over it. A character in this world cannot possibly have knowledge of the French language, so how do you still justify it being spoken? So yes, it's out of character.
And since you seemed to imply I spelled something wrong and pulled the lame "omg spelling error!" card:
>But characer, no.
You do know how to spell "character," right? Teehee.
>Um, then we wouldn't have foreign languages in DR that many characters couldn't understand.
Again, difference between dialects existing within the game and dialects that absolutely do not.
LIKE FRENCH! GOD!
>I think it's ultimately counterproductive to throw a public fit about out of game issues in front of characters.
Yes, shield our delicate text-based characters' ears, despite the fact that they have no mind of their own and are nothing but a bundle of code. You speak like they're actually separate entities with thoughts and feelings not endowed upon them by their players. Reminds me of the "Don't fight in front of the children!" adage.
I give up.
-Luty
Okay, I see we're playing semantics. It's a fair statement to say that -most- people playing an English-based game fully expect to speak English in it. And where did I spell assume wrong?
>OOC to some players, not all, but to the characters? Dio can't tell the difference between Serbo-Croatian and Gorbesh. To him they're both just as foreign. I think that's why it doesn't seem like such a huge deal, any more than typos.
Speaking French cannot possibly be viewed as being in-character being that the language doesn't exist in DragonRealms. How are you not seeing that? There's a difference between foreign languages that exist within DR and ones that exist in real life. Regarding typos: there's a suspension of disbelief here. We, the players, realize that the person behind that character isn't always going to type everything immaculately, thus our characters don't nitpick over people's grammatical or typographical errors.
Typos are also something that can't be helped. Speaking in a blatantly OOC/OOG/take your pick manner can be.
>And this is why I quibble over the point, really. Out of character? No, not really. Out of genre, out of game, yes, certainly
At least you admit to quibbling over it. A character in this world cannot possibly have knowledge of the French language, so how do you still justify it being spoken? So yes, it's out of character.
And since you seemed to imply I spelled something wrong and pulled the lame "omg spelling error!" card:
>But characer, no.
You do know how to spell "character," right? Teehee.
>Um, then we wouldn't have foreign languages in DR that many characters couldn't understand.
Again, difference between dialects existing within the game and dialects that absolutely do not.
LIKE FRENCH! GOD!
>I think it's ultimately counterproductive to throw a public fit about out of game issues in front of characters.
Yes, shield our delicate text-based characters' ears, despite the fact that they have no mind of their own and are nothing but a bundle of code. You speak like they're actually separate entities with thoughts and feelings not endowed upon them by their players. Reminds me of the "Don't fight in front of the children!" adage.
I give up.
-Luty
KOUGEN
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/15/2004 12:01 AM CDT
>And since you seemed to imply I spelled something wrong and pulled the lame "omg spelling error!" card:
I think they were refering to the quaint little saying which follows along the lines of "When you assume, you make an "ass" of "u" and "me".
Eowen says, "You people are so weird."
You say, "I resent that."
Eowen exclaims, "I would too...the nerve of some people!"
Eowen indicates her dust bunny with a smile.
I think they were refering to the quaint little saying which follows along the lines of "When you assume, you make an "ass" of "u" and "me".
Eowen says, "You people are so weird."
You say, "I resent that."
Eowen exclaims, "I would too...the nerve of some people!"
Eowen indicates her dust bunny with a smile.
ITAINTATHING
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/15/2004 12:49 AM CDT
Hmm, I figured it was something along those lines but couldn't figure it out. Didn't really occur to me until after I posted. But yes, I've found out lately that when you make assumptions you often give people too much credit. :(
P.S. Generally speaking, not just this case.
-Luty
P.S. Generally speaking, not just this case.
-Luty
CBISAZZA
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/15/2004 04:17 AM CDT
<<At least you admit to quibbling over it. A character in this world cannot possibly have knowledge of the French language, so how do you still justify it being spoken? So yes, it's out of character.>>
Very true, just like they can't possibly have knowledge of English either. Or any other language that belongs to this (to them) non-reality.
START PERSONAL OPINION
Dragonrealms works under the assumption that the playerbase has a working knowledge of English, and that communications with players happens in (something resembling) English.
That's why commands and room descriptions are in English. If someone went and coded part of DR in French, then I would not enjoy it half as much as if it were in English; despite being able to read it.
This is a fantasy game, and for me the fantasy happens in English.
I compare it to reading an otherworld fantasy book. There are other languages, sure, but it's not French because French happens in our reality and not in the alternate reality that the book tries to capture. If the language used to convey that alternate reality is English, then I expect it to remain English throughout.
That's what I expect from DR.
So is is OOC for someone to speak French? Yes. It takes all of 10 seconds to establish an IM conversation if you want - I don't think there is any reason why a conversation in DR should happen in any earth language other than English. Once more, it's not that English is 'In Character', it just happens to be the language of this particular story.
Should it be against policy for someone not to speak English? No. Characters can invent and speak in codes or languages of their own design if they want, and that would not be OOC.
Would I thump someone who spoke French? No, but again, this is just a personal opinion. Thump is viewed as an IC RP tool to be used as we think fit.
END PERSONAL OPINION
Very true, just like they can't possibly have knowledge of English either. Or any other language that belongs to this (to them) non-reality.
START PERSONAL OPINION
Dragonrealms works under the assumption that the playerbase has a working knowledge of English, and that communications with players happens in (something resembling) English.
That's why commands and room descriptions are in English. If someone went and coded part of DR in French, then I would not enjoy it half as much as if it were in English; despite being able to read it.
This is a fantasy game, and for me the fantasy happens in English.
I compare it to reading an otherworld fantasy book. There are other languages, sure, but it's not French because French happens in our reality and not in the alternate reality that the book tries to capture. If the language used to convey that alternate reality is English, then I expect it to remain English throughout.
That's what I expect from DR.
So is is OOC for someone to speak French? Yes. It takes all of 10 seconds to establish an IM conversation if you want - I don't think there is any reason why a conversation in DR should happen in any earth language other than English. Once more, it's not that English is 'In Character', it just happens to be the language of this particular story.
Should it be against policy for someone not to speak English? No. Characters can invent and speak in codes or languages of their own design if they want, and that would not be OOC.
Would I thump someone who spoke French? No, but again, this is just a personal opinion. Thump is viewed as an IC RP tool to be used as we think fit.
END PERSONAL OPINION
BATDOG420
Re: Non-english speaking players not allowed in Simutronics products?
09/15/2004 09:43 AM CDT
>Actually, any unconsented attack is warnable and can lead to lockout. Had this person not broken policy by combat logging, the person who was about to attack him probably would have been warned.
Actually, he did the right thing. The staff tells you, that if you're attacked unconsented, you should REPORT, LEAVE the situation, and assist to give details as to what exactly happened.
If you are unable to leave the situation, then they suggest you report and exit.
'Combat logging' as pertains to violating policy, is when you log out IN COMBAT, like, with a bunch of monsters. Or you graverob some stuff, or steal something, or somehow give a player consent on you (no, talking doesn't cover this), and then when you're getting beat down for whatever you did, go 'omg!/exit'
All the other person did was face them, after their stupid friend thumped them. My GUESS would be, so he couldn't duck back into hiding. But then what? You're going to prevent someone from hiding, who your 'friend' just thumped, so you can what, talk to them? Or lecture them?
He made the right choice, it didn't seem like a lecture would come from that, and anyone who calls you fair game, then makes to attack you for saying 'Que?' out loud, IS A FREAKIN MORON.
_______________
"The goblin's coming this way!" <-- Contraction:good.
"That goblin's eyepatch is fake!" <-- Possession:good.
"Some goblin's are running towards town!" <-- Pluralization: MAKES YOU STUPID
Know the apostrophe.
_______________
Actually, he did the right thing. The staff tells you, that if you're attacked unconsented, you should REPORT, LEAVE the situation, and assist to give details as to what exactly happened.
If you are unable to leave the situation, then they suggest you report and exit.
'Combat logging' as pertains to violating policy, is when you log out IN COMBAT, like, with a bunch of monsters. Or you graverob some stuff, or steal something, or somehow give a player consent on you (no, talking doesn't cover this), and then when you're getting beat down for whatever you did, go 'omg!/exit'
All the other person did was face them, after their stupid friend thumped them. My GUESS would be, so he couldn't duck back into hiding. But then what? You're going to prevent someone from hiding, who your 'friend' just thumped, so you can what, talk to them? Or lecture them?
He made the right choice, it didn't seem like a lecture would come from that, and anyone who calls you fair game, then makes to attack you for saying 'Que?' out loud, IS A FREAKIN MORON.
_______________
"The goblin's coming this way!" <-- Contraction:good.
"That goblin's eyepatch is fake!" <-- Possession:good.
"Some goblin's are running towards town!" <-- Pluralization: MAKES YOU STUPID
Know the apostrophe.
_______________
