Um, something changed down here.

The door has been open for awhile now, but I go there today and it's closed.

So, I figure I'll just do the puzzle like the old days, but it doesn't work anymore. I went through the same procedure I used to use and I got torched by the gargoyle.

Anyone got an idea? GM?

Ruhrik

>Hmm, when I saw you in there last night I had opened the door, and used the garg no problem.

Last night, as over the last week, I've just been able to walk through the door without doing the puzzle (and you were the only person I've seen). I managed to get in with a slight modification to the old puzzle routine.

Ruhrik

<grunts> Something broke on the puzzle clue apparently. I've put in a patch for it, but will have to actually fix it after Magic is done.

Rigby

><grunts> Something broke on the puzzle clue apparently. I've put in a patch for it, but will have to actually fix it after Magic is done.

When my old puzzle solution didn't work, I went looking for the clue and couldn't find it. Is that what broke?

Also, it seems there's one more move of the claw necessary to get the door open than there used to be. Is that supposed to be like that?

How about just leaving the door open like it was? ;)

Ruhrik

Nevermind :) I'm an idiot.



-Pilf

There are at least 2 ways in that I know of. One through Germishdin another that requires you to have the aid of several different magic using guilds to charge up the power supply to open the door.

Think thats broad enough to not get pulled.

Arrys

I just noticed the Manor south of leth with kartais and the such is considered wilderness? Im wondering if a GM can look into this area. From its description, distance from the city of leth, etc, I would assume it would be an urban hunting area (one of the very few). Appreciate the assistance.

~~From Hell

<<<<<<I figure it's considered not in town since it is a little ways off the main road, abandoned, infested with creatures, and is pretty much void of any traces of civilization... only thing about it resembling an urban factor is that the structure itself is man-made. That's just my take on it though.>>>>>>>>

While certainly a valid take on the matter, categorization by criteria such as that calls into question the nature of urban or rural bonuses. I agree, the area is void of civilization, but like you say it is also a manmade structure. What is it exactly about being inside the city that gives thieves a bonus? Is it the manmade structures, or is it the crowds, or is it merely familiarity with their surroundings? I will rule out familiarity, because my character can arrive in a city he has never seen before, yet immediately have his urban bonus. It could be the structures, but as is evident in this case, or in the case of the SCC arena, or Langenfirth, or the Middens outside Crossing's NE gate, manmade structures do not equate to thief urban bonus. Does that mean that urban bonus is based on thieves feeling comfortable in a crowd? If that is the case, we should probably reassess certain areas in game, that while close to nature, are also crowded with the 11 races. Areas like this would include all the trade routes (let us not forget the invisible common people who would be frequenting these roads) The existence of trailmarkers to get around the trade routes suggests that these routes are a lot less of a wilderness area than their surroundings. The areas to be reassessed could even certain hunting areas which are close to town but frequented by a lot of people. The premie gargs and DS and the aforementioned kartais are both prime examples, they are close to town and exist in manmade structures. And amazingly enough, housing areas that you access through the middle of a town are somehow still coded as non-urban areas as far as thief bonus is concerned, which completely baffles me.

Now, before anyone gets defensive, I'm not saying this to try and take anything away from rangers. Let's examine the premise of the ranger out of town bonus. Is it the absence of crowds that they like, or the absence of manmade structures? I would say, for the same reasons that presence of structures does not guarantee thief bonus, that absence of them does not make an area rural as opposed to urban. Is it simply closeness to nature, any nearby tree or grassy area makes rangers feel right at home? This might be the case, because the ranger's guild in Crossing is right smack in the middle of a very urban environment, and is even housed in a manmade structure, but rangers still have bonus there. I recognize that this might be more of a playability issue so that new rangers have somewhere to congregate and learn from their venerable elders, and less of an actual IC realism issue. My point in all this is that some areas are apparently suited to thiefs in some ways but suited to rangers in other ways. I'd even venture that some areas that may logically be more suited to thiefs, such as the SCC arena, which should be teeming with those invisible commoners and peasants who want to watch us beat the snot out of each other, are still coded as rural bonus. I realize that having these areas already coded as such, then reversing them, would arouse much discontent from rangers, and the issue of whether such discontent is based on IC reasoning is not necessarily important. What I would suggest, however, is that some areas be coded to grant bonus to both rangers and to thiefs. It is not a farfetched idea to imagine that there are elements in an area which might give comfort to thiefs and elements in the same area that give comfort to rangers. I'd actually think it is more logical to make those areas bonus neutral so neither thieves nor rangers get a bonus, but I think everyone concerned would be happier if we both got the bonus as opposed to no one getting it.

Gheist, I pretty much agree with you, except you depict two extremes, and I bet you would recognize that there is an in between. I completely understand that reasoning, but the wild card that Elanthia throws in is that every room in the realms is coded with some degree of either urban bonus or ranger bonus, and to my knowledge there is no room in code for any in between.

Following the range set by your examples, it is debatable whether or not a sparsely settled area such as Langenfirth would offer a ranger bonus. However, every room in game has to either give the rangers a bonus, or slowly drain said bonus away from them. While it might be a stretch to deem the settlement of Lang a wilderness area, it also is a town designed with rangers in mind, so we can't rightfully make it drain their bonus either. For thiefs, bonus is dependent on difference things. All other factors aside, bonus is at full the instant a thief steps into a city, and dissapears completely the instant they step out. Maybe because rangers face negatives while the worst thieves face is neutral (although that is a fix that has only recently within the past few months been instituted for thieves, it used to be that if our bonus was anything less than perfect we would be at negative ranks out of town), it ends up that a vast vast majority of the rooms in game seem to be rural when it is arguable that they really should be neutral or even urban. (I'd actually love to see statistics on this if anyone has them) Because of this, I think thiefs end up losing out in areas such as SCC arena and various small towns and the beaten paths of the trade routes. I'm not asking to take bonus away and make those areas negatively impact rangers, but I would like to see if making the areas so they grant bonus to thieves and rangers is a possibility. For example, an overrun city, while in the realm of nature, might still have certain architectural quirks to it that experienced city dwellers can recognize. Or an arena that is surrounded by stands and crowds is likewise no less urban than rural.

I have to disagree. The tunnels up north are man made structures, and because of that criteria the GM's made them urban in terms of a thief bonus. There is no busteling urbananization in the tunnels; the soul fact that they were man made was enough. A thieves familiarity is in urban enviroments, not the crowds that populate them. I see few parties being thrown in sewers, or in alley ways, yet these are all familiar to a thief.

Now take a thief, a burglar, and show him a manor; one with man made puzzles, a grave yard, multiple floors, etc; That should be a small heaven for them. Look at Haven Manor for instance; its filled with undead, yet the structure itself dictates that it is 'in town'. The Leth Manor is barely off the road outside of the main city; id guess IC you could see the city from the Manors second floor. How then is it considered a part of nature? I doubt the undead presense helps that. The large, finely crafted beams, stone walls.... the cellar and multiple arch ways? I dont think Germs are very nature oriented to say the least. That argument of course does not attempt to imply undead are hallmarks of the urban enviroment, but they certainly distract from any unity with nature.

As such, i agree with mt on this one. The Leth Manor is clearly a mark of civilization, despite its currnet inhabitants (like Haven Manor) and should be changed to reflect that.

~~From Hell

If the area is later thought to be erroneous, it can however be changed. Just like Dunshade Manor, which is smack in the middle of Riverhaven, was originally not coded in town, and thanks to the efforts of GM-Royce and team Thief, was finally properly coded as in-town.


~ The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor the ear filled with hearing.
That which hath been is that
which shall be,
And that which hath been done is that
which shall be done;
And there is nothing new under the sun.

<<If a Thief is in the wilderness, do they ever get 10 second hides, searches, and stalks with over 300 ranks in the relevant skills?>>

yes. with well over 300 hiding, and close to that in stalking and perception, happens.

And especially since one of those critters teaches escape so well, and that is now in our core requirements, having it be city would be a "good thing".

Now, the area Outside the manor should still be "wilderness", but i feel the indoor places should be "city", as those just seem like city type of places.

Schvartz

Thank ya much, Schvartzgonif. I've always been curious as to if that happened to both of us, and wasn't sure if it still did after your bonus rewrite. Neutral is probably the most fair in that case, but it's not really my place to say that. We also have escaping as part of our survival requirements, and I agree, this is pretty much the only way to learn it decently without getting eaten <Grins>

-Sarvatt's player.

>the manor isn't "in the middle of nowhere". I'd imagine you can see leth deriel quite well from the windows on the second floor

Regardless, a single room or single structure (read: house/manor/building) in the middle of wilderness coded ranger friendly should not neccesarily be coded city just because of a change in guild requirements, and the proximity to a valuable teacher of said requirements.

It is my opinion that the request for thief or ranger bonuses in the manor is highly biased and nonsensical. Just because it teaches something thieves need alot of all of a sudden is not a reason to change an obviously "not city area" to a "city area".

-Slaris

---

Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.

>Do you see forests, trees, wilderness there? No. Its manufactured structures. Dining rooms, kitchens,pantry,hallways, dens,bedrooms,attic library, even a cathedral. sounds like a city to me.

<grin> Those are rooms within a structure.

Its 1 building. 2 if you count the carriage house. Besides, 1 or 2 buildings only count as a town in Austrialia or maybe Montana, and I didn't see any kangaroos.

-Slaris

---

Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.

>>I have to disagree. The tunnels up north are man made structures, and because of that criteria the GM's made them urban in terms of a thief bonus.<<

The tunnels are very different than the manor. The tunnels are almost like a huge sewer system underneath a very large city.

How is this similar to a Abandon Manor out in the forest a few miles away from a small city/village?

>>Look at Haven Manor for instance; its filled with undead, yet the structure itself dictates that it is 'in town'.<<

It's smack dab in the middle of town.

>>I have a question. Does it make a difference if a room is neutral or wilderness for a Thief?<<

No it doesn't a thief's bonus is like a switch it's either on or off (when it comes to areas). Unlike the rangers bonus which is always sliding down with the speed dependent on the wilderness setting.

>>Do you see forests, trees, wilderness there? No. Its manufactured structures. Dining rooms, kitchens,pantry,hallways, dens,bedrooms,attic library, even a cathedral. sounds like a city to me.<<

That doesn't shouldn't make something become coded as "city". If we followed that reasoning all homes should become in city too.

When coding something as either in city or giving it a wilderness setting it's not as easy as saying well it's a man made structure so it must be coded in city, or there trees in the area so it must be wilderness.





Da Not So Madd Webba

---

Ebonics 101

1)Playahata (n) - One who offers truthful constructive criticism that is in opposition to popular opinion or the status quo.

Just looking at this logically I have to say it is clear the manor is not in town. As you said: <Its 3 steps from Leth Gate, and its perimeter extends to hit the southern trading route,> which means it is outside the town gates or outside the town.
<Secondaly, its a building. Its occupied by undead.> Just the fact that the manor is a building or occupied by undead does not mean it is in town.

<Areas where civilization has left its mark. > There are plenty of areas where civilization has made its mark, yet they are not in town. Many ruins of old civilizations or towns are hard to distinguish from the neighboring forest or countryside. It depends on how much the environment has reclaimed the structures.

The presence of undead is possible in town or in wilderness and has no relavance to this issue.

<The house though, being a large manor is comparable in size to the Haven Manor, so I see 'no' reason this is not coded as an in town area.> Yet there is no reason for this to be coded as in town either. Clearly this is a town/wilderness neutral area.

<People have to realize, 3 trees does not nature make.> Nor does one structure make a town.

I agree that it is not wilderness, yet it is clearly just outside the town gate, therefore outside the town. Moreover, it is ruined or in the process of being reclaimed by the wilderness. The Leth Manor is clearly in a neutral area and should be neutral for both thieves and rangers. It is one of the few areas where all can train in escape and this is very important for both guilds.

Naturn

Just a general comment... please remember that simply because someplace is three rooms away, doesn't necessarily mean "close". After all, think of the room distance between Crossing and Arthe Dale, then think of the relative positions on the map. They are far, far more distant than you'd think just "walking" it.

Im very sorry, but something being within the walls of a city is not the definition of a town bonus. There are plenty of rooms in town where a thief doesnt get their city bonus. Position is not the definition of a rooms bonus type, but the rooms nature. Areas of blatant civilizations, such as theren tunnels, and most cities, are 'town' bonus (which should be changed to 'civilization' bonus to represent its essense).

Also if you read the room descriptions in the rooms from the Leth gate to the Manor, its literaly 'very' close to the city, as well as the southern trading route. Its a bloody 'manor'. A large large home, with an indoor cathedral. To use something a GM said in this thread, rooms dont always represent distance of size. If you read the room descripts inside this Manor, its HUGE. Read the descripts to/from the manor (compared to most other rooms) and its not very far from the second most highly traveled route in all of DR, but as well as a busteling port city.

Its void of 'nature'. There is no busteling forest. No woodland animals. There is nothing natural about the area. It is very very very much like Haven Manor (considered in town).

~~From Hell

Very good point Shan. The manor is clearly in more of a state of being reclaimed by nature than I had thought. It is clearer than ever that the Leth manor is out of town completely and should be wilderness!

Naturn