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So I see em poppin up now(I know of two of them for SURE), are we gonna do the Eastern style stuff now. We gonna have ninja swords, throwing items, samurai armor, and all that Japanese stuff.
Valgar
JARADM
ARCELEBOR
Re: Katana time
01/14/2005 11:22 AM CST
Nope. Katanas are a rare exception.
Arcelebor
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
Arcelebor
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
JARADM
Re: Katana time
01/14/2005 01:26 PM CST
This would be an interesting topic to see how this gets justified hehe.
THATWASRAD
Re: Katana time
01/21/2005 04:34 PM CST
We do have origami...
> I see dead people...<
Vote for Pedro
> I see dead people...<
Vote for Pedro
AKERMAN
Re: Katana time
02/05/2005 12:59 PM CST
Elotheans are an extremely Asian culture (rice food, silks, kimono-type garb, sushi, so forth). I'm not sure there's any reason not to throw some Asian flair into DR.
~Kashik
"Consider your bottom... two... little corn-cob spiky handle things."
~Mean Maelona Morlamgar
~Kashik
"Consider your bottom... two... little corn-cob spiky handle things."
~Mean Maelona Morlamgar
BROOKIEDRAGON
Re: Katana time
02/07/2005 08:08 PM CST
The only arguement I can think of that might be made against katanas is someone saying they want to keep real life cultural elements out of the game. Of course this can be easily dispelled as it is the same case as saying a Claymore is Europeon. And the previous post where right. They are putting things like oragami into the game. As for throwing items, they already got a few. I always pictured my throwing spike as a kunai.
Kunai - http://home.netyou.jp/kk/sakura/sozai/gazo/kunai/kunai11.jpg
They could easily put (dai)katanas into the game also. Would probably be like a claymore but with no impact and little more balance?
I would love to see Katanas in the game for many reasons. One it goes with my character sketch. But I would hate to see fan boys start running around, kinda like the person that bought Galain, yelling stuff from Dragonball Z and yelling "baka" cause its the only Japanese they know.
watshi wa daikatana ga daisuki desu!
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against mankind, I was stronger.
I'm now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and now I'm ticked.
Kunai - http://home.netyou.jp/kk/sakura/sozai/gazo/kunai/kunai11.jpg
They could easily put (dai)katanas into the game also. Would probably be like a claymore but with no impact and little more balance?
I would love to see Katanas in the game for many reasons. One it goes with my character sketch. But I would hate to see fan boys start running around, kinda like the person that bought Galain, yelling stuff from Dragonball Z and yelling "baka" cause its the only Japanese they know.
watshi wa daikatana ga daisuki desu!
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against mankind, I was stronger.
I'm now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and now I'm ticked.
ECOLES
Re: Katana time
02/07/2005 09:09 PM CST
Yeah...
Cause I always picuted my broadword like a 7 foot tall manequin, with arms that swing up and down and slap people as they come close.
Ecoles
"Us loners gotta stick together"
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/e/c/ecoles/ecoles.html
Cause I always picuted my broadword like a 7 foot tall manequin, with arms that swing up and down and slap people as they come close.
Ecoles
"Us loners gotta stick together"
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/e/c/ecoles/ecoles.html
JARADM
Re: Katana time
02/17/2005 10:50 AM CST
*I would love to see Katanas in the game for many reasons.*
There are Katana's in the game already ( I have seen two of them, and one of them was released recently)
I am wondering when can I get one heh.
Valgar
There are Katana's in the game already ( I have seen two of them, and one of them was released recently)
I am wondering when can I get one heh.
Valgar
HOBB
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 04:47 PM CST
In the offchance that people actually read this topic -
What is so special about katanas that so many people want to include them IG? Is it so they can finally RP a ninja?
What is so special about katanas that so many people want to include them IG? Is it so they can finally RP a ninja?
SYLVERWIND
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 04:51 PM CST
>> Is it so they can finally RP a ninja?
Basically.
Just replace 'ninja' with the name of a random super-leet anime samurai character.
Rev. Reene, player of a few
>
Clemency struggles with his clogged crevice.
Basically.
Just replace 'ninja' with the name of a random super-leet anime samurai character.
Rev. Reene, player of a few
>
Clemency struggles with his clogged crevice.
SYLER
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 05:53 PM CST
They're beautiful weapons (aesthetically) and have a unique sword-style to their application.
and, very few ninja could afford a Katana ;)
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
and, very few ninja could afford a Katana ;)
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
DRAQ
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 07:17 PM CST
>and, very few ninja could afford a Katana ;)
Pirates, on the other hand...
In all seriousness, not only are katanas awesome, but we have weapons from pretty much everywhere else, and it's kinda dumb to exclude Japan for any reason. However I can't say I disagree with making katanas as rare as they are. After all they aren't exactly an assembly line product, unlike most other cultures' swords. To paraphrase someone else's words, most swords in museums are completley rusted, but the katanas from the same era look like they were made yesterday. And they can cut through street lamps.
Steel.
OMG! YOU HAVE <insert ability here> YOU ARE OVERPOWERED! DIE, GUILD, DIE!
Pirates, on the other hand...
In all seriousness, not only are katanas awesome, but we have weapons from pretty much everywhere else, and it's kinda dumb to exclude Japan for any reason. However I can't say I disagree with making katanas as rare as they are. After all they aren't exactly an assembly line product, unlike most other cultures' swords. To paraphrase someone else's words, most swords in museums are completley rusted, but the katanas from the same era look like they were made yesterday. And they can cut through street lamps.
Steel.
OMG! YOU HAVE <insert ability here> YOU ARE OVERPOWERED! DIE, GUILD, DIE!
YUDHEH
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 07:47 PM CST
<<In the offchance that people actually read this topic -
What is so special about katanas that so many people want to include them IG? Is it so they can finally RP a ninja?>>
Doubtful.
Most "Ninja" were peasants and farmers and never owned a katana. Their weapons were mostly comprised of modified tools that would appear common. Being peasants, it would not have been wise to be caught with a katana in one's possession. The offense could get you beheaded, since posession of a katana was a right saved strictly for nobility. (Even certain hair styles were reserved for Samuraii class only and even today in Japan, only Sumoka are allowed to wear their hair in the old style)
A katana is to bladed weapons what a Gatling gun would be to a musket. Every katana was made with care and most people at the time believed that the swordsmith actually put a part of his soal into the blade. There are all kinds of stories about certain craftsman's blades being so evil that the Gods themselves were afraid to be cut by their blade. Many blades were even known, by name. Like a Paladin might name his horse.
Also, the mixtures and processes used to make a Katana were very advanced for the times. Much moreso than in most other parts of the world. Probably the only country that had steel even close to that quality was Spain.
The few "Ninja" that did use swords, used shinobito. THey were very crude, straight bladed swords. More along the lines of a wakizashi in length, but inferior in every way. (They served their purpose and were versatile. Ninja weapons usually had several functions and needed to be easily concealable or disposable)
There are katanas out there (true katanas. Not the mass produced ones that started turning up during WWI & WWII or at the local martial arts supply store) that are worth more than the Olson Twins and Donald Trump combined. Look them up on E-Bay and you'll find even a cruedly made tsuba from the era, badly tarnished and pitted is going for $2k.
Whatever the reason; why NOT have katanas IG?
We have blades from all other parts of the world. Claymores, Rapiers, Sabres, scimitars, broadswords, etc.
Several of my characters are modelled after oriental historical figures. None of which are "Ninja". There are centuries of civil war and unrest in those countries, not to mention a greatly untapped mythos. My Barbarian is modelled after a Ronin who travelled around the countryside testing and honing his skills with a katana. His family name heads up a sword tradition that is still widely practiced today, all over the world. But nobody really knows what he was like when he was younger and travelling the country to duel with other top swordsmen. It is just great fun to RP what that might have been like, especially throwing DR critters into the mix. But a katana and possibly some other medeival, oriental style items would really make RP alot more fun.
Not everyone wants to be a "Ninja". In fact, if you could travel back in time and call a Samurai or any noble a "Ninja", it'd probably be the last thing you'd do. It's the equivilant of spitting publicly in his face. You'd be executed on the spot in most cases. But such were the times.
Sorry. I don't want to sound preachy or anything. I'm just trying to explain what the fascination is with the katana. I'm sure there are some out there who just want to be ninjas, like the ones in the movies. But not everyone. I think that most DR players know the real value of the weapon and the true history and mythology behind their deadly beauty.
Pete~Player of several in the Realms of Dragons.
"Yeah, we'll call you," muttered Ron as the knight disappeared, "if we ever need someone mental." -RON (Harry Potter, TPOA)
A man's fate is a man's fate and life is but an illusion- James Clavell
What is so special about katanas that so many people want to include them IG? Is it so they can finally RP a ninja?>>
Doubtful.
Most "Ninja" were peasants and farmers and never owned a katana. Their weapons were mostly comprised of modified tools that would appear common. Being peasants, it would not have been wise to be caught with a katana in one's possession. The offense could get you beheaded, since posession of a katana was a right saved strictly for nobility. (Even certain hair styles were reserved for Samuraii class only and even today in Japan, only Sumoka are allowed to wear their hair in the old style)
A katana is to bladed weapons what a Gatling gun would be to a musket. Every katana was made with care and most people at the time believed that the swordsmith actually put a part of his soal into the blade. There are all kinds of stories about certain craftsman's blades being so evil that the Gods themselves were afraid to be cut by their blade. Many blades were even known, by name. Like a Paladin might name his horse.
Also, the mixtures and processes used to make a Katana were very advanced for the times. Much moreso than in most other parts of the world. Probably the only country that had steel even close to that quality was Spain.
The few "Ninja" that did use swords, used shinobito. THey were very crude, straight bladed swords. More along the lines of a wakizashi in length, but inferior in every way. (They served their purpose and were versatile. Ninja weapons usually had several functions and needed to be easily concealable or disposable)
There are katanas out there (true katanas. Not the mass produced ones that started turning up during WWI & WWII or at the local martial arts supply store) that are worth more than the Olson Twins and Donald Trump combined. Look them up on E-Bay and you'll find even a cruedly made tsuba from the era, badly tarnished and pitted is going for $2k.
Whatever the reason; why NOT have katanas IG?
We have blades from all other parts of the world. Claymores, Rapiers, Sabres, scimitars, broadswords, etc.
Several of my characters are modelled after oriental historical figures. None of which are "Ninja". There are centuries of civil war and unrest in those countries, not to mention a greatly untapped mythos. My Barbarian is modelled after a Ronin who travelled around the countryside testing and honing his skills with a katana. His family name heads up a sword tradition that is still widely practiced today, all over the world. But nobody really knows what he was like when he was younger and travelling the country to duel with other top swordsmen. It is just great fun to RP what that might have been like, especially throwing DR critters into the mix. But a katana and possibly some other medeival, oriental style items would really make RP alot more fun.
Not everyone wants to be a "Ninja". In fact, if you could travel back in time and call a Samurai or any noble a "Ninja", it'd probably be the last thing you'd do. It's the equivilant of spitting publicly in his face. You'd be executed on the spot in most cases. But such were the times.
Sorry. I don't want to sound preachy or anything. I'm just trying to explain what the fascination is with the katana. I'm sure there are some out there who just want to be ninjas, like the ones in the movies. But not everyone. I think that most DR players know the real value of the weapon and the true history and mythology behind their deadly beauty.
Pete~Player of several in the Realms of Dragons.
"Yeah, we'll call you," muttered Ron as the knight disappeared, "if we ever need someone mental." -RON (Harry Potter, TPOA)
A man's fate is a man's fate and life is but an illusion- James Clavell
SYLER
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 07:57 PM CST
There are many who would assert that Katanas are no better weapons than their European equivalents (beyond the 'by definition' approach that is)...
There are those who have asserted that the steel available to Japanese swordsmiths was of an impure quality, and the folding process was nothing more than removing those impurities. That in fact, the weapon was, as best, decent.
I don't personally feel they are correct in this estimation, but let it be understood, Katanas are just swords. They can't cut through walls of steel, and will snap if used against a tree improperly. The weapons that are national treasures are never used, for fear of damaging them. I think they're beautiful, impressive weapons, but be skeptical of the "they are God-swords" paradigm.
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
There are those who have asserted that the steel available to Japanese swordsmiths was of an impure quality, and the folding process was nothing more than removing those impurities. That in fact, the weapon was, as best, decent.
I don't personally feel they are correct in this estimation, but let it be understood, Katanas are just swords. They can't cut through walls of steel, and will snap if used against a tree improperly. The weapons that are national treasures are never used, for fear of damaging them. I think they're beautiful, impressive weapons, but be skeptical of the "they are God-swords" paradigm.
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
NKRISS
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 08:03 PM CST
>>I don't personally feel they are correct in this estimation, but let it be understood, Katanas are just swords. They can't cut through walls of steel, and will snap if used against a tree improperly.
Apparently you've never had Hanzo steel.
"If you should encounter God on your journey, God will be cut."
-Teeklin
"I am a leaf in the wind. Watch how I soar."
Apparently you've never had Hanzo steel.
"If you should encounter God on your journey, God will be cut."
-Teeklin
"I am a leaf in the wind. Watch how I soar."
SYLER
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 08:10 PM CST
I have.
I tend to feel it has more to do with the swordsman, than the sword, really.
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
I tend to feel it has more to do with the swordsman, than the sword, really.
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
SYLER
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 09:06 PM CST
(oops, i thought you said Seen. I have seen. But not posessed. heh.)
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
YENLOWANG1
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 09:36 PM CST
Katanas are not magic swords that cut through street lamps. Steel is still steel. Are you kidding? If a metal that hard could be so easily manufactured and produced, the modern military would go nuts. Slice a blade through a tank!
In reality, outside of popular myth, the katana was quite a primitive weapon. Since Roman times, Europeans had been using pattern welding of different pieces of iron with different tempers on them to create very complex swords. In Japan however, differential tempering was the norm and the only method by which katana were made well into the 16th century. This is when you cool one part of the blade slower than the other, to give one part a harder temper than the other. Softer metal on the spine would allow deformation and reformation on impact, and the harder would hold the edge. Compared to the European method of combining specialized metals, the katana was behind the times.
All the "folding" method does is homogenize the inferior steel that was the only iron resource native to the tiny island of Japan. It spread carbon evenly throughout the blade as well as eliminate any air bubbles. The "layers" in the blade were a result of this. One fold makes two layers, two folds make four layers, continued exponentially. A typical katana had 12 folds in it, making roughly 4,000 layers. Some katana had as many as 20, making roughly 1,000,000 layers. The number of layers has often mislead the layman into thinking the blade was actually folded that many times. If the blade were folded more than 20, the effect could be detrimental as it would burn the carbon out of the steel, bringing the blade to a composition more like that of iron.
Another thing to remember is the katana is a curved weapon. Curved weapons, because of their displacement properties when striking, are best suited to drawing cuts rather than cleaving cuts. This also means that the katana by design is relatively ineffective against heavy armor. Japan never used armor as heavy as Europe; Japanese armor, by the time knights were wearing armor-of-proof (bulletproof), was little beyond small steel plates and chain held together with silk straps (silk has very high tensile strength). They never needed a dedicated armor-crushing weapon, like the European warhammer or halberd. The katana was designed to cause bleeding lascerations on unarmored and lightly armored targets, similar to the scimitar and shamshir of the Middle East where it's too hot to wear heavy armor.
Katanas weren't even uniformly balanced. A katana from the 13th century would have been weighted heavily for slashing an armored battlefield opponent, while a katana from the 16th or 17th centuries would have been weighted lightly at the tip for flicking cuts against the soft areas of unarmored duelists. Like other weapons, katanas were adapted to the time periods they were in.
Katanas are not "godly chop-through-streetlamps-leet-ginsu" weapons. They are swords. Just like any other sword, a katana is mortal, and bound by reality.
-Seducati, RL sword and armor smith
P.S. If we're going for the "cultural equality" by adding katana, I want a macquahuitl, so I can beat down some ninjas Aztec style.
In reality, outside of popular myth, the katana was quite a primitive weapon. Since Roman times, Europeans had been using pattern welding of different pieces of iron with different tempers on them to create very complex swords. In Japan however, differential tempering was the norm and the only method by which katana were made well into the 16th century. This is when you cool one part of the blade slower than the other, to give one part a harder temper than the other. Softer metal on the spine would allow deformation and reformation on impact, and the harder would hold the edge. Compared to the European method of combining specialized metals, the katana was behind the times.
All the "folding" method does is homogenize the inferior steel that was the only iron resource native to the tiny island of Japan. It spread carbon evenly throughout the blade as well as eliminate any air bubbles. The "layers" in the blade were a result of this. One fold makes two layers, two folds make four layers, continued exponentially. A typical katana had 12 folds in it, making roughly 4,000 layers. Some katana had as many as 20, making roughly 1,000,000 layers. The number of layers has often mislead the layman into thinking the blade was actually folded that many times. If the blade were folded more than 20, the effect could be detrimental as it would burn the carbon out of the steel, bringing the blade to a composition more like that of iron.
Another thing to remember is the katana is a curved weapon. Curved weapons, because of their displacement properties when striking, are best suited to drawing cuts rather than cleaving cuts. This also means that the katana by design is relatively ineffective against heavy armor. Japan never used armor as heavy as Europe; Japanese armor, by the time knights were wearing armor-of-proof (bulletproof), was little beyond small steel plates and chain held together with silk straps (silk has very high tensile strength). They never needed a dedicated armor-crushing weapon, like the European warhammer or halberd. The katana was designed to cause bleeding lascerations on unarmored and lightly armored targets, similar to the scimitar and shamshir of the Middle East where it's too hot to wear heavy armor.
Katanas weren't even uniformly balanced. A katana from the 13th century would have been weighted heavily for slashing an armored battlefield opponent, while a katana from the 16th or 17th centuries would have been weighted lightly at the tip for flicking cuts against the soft areas of unarmored duelists. Like other weapons, katanas were adapted to the time periods they were in.
Katanas are not "godly chop-through-streetlamps-leet-ginsu" weapons. They are swords. Just like any other sword, a katana is mortal, and bound by reality.
-Seducati, RL sword and armor smith
P.S. If we're going for the "cultural equality" by adding katana, I want a macquahuitl, so I can beat down some ninjas Aztec style.
SYLER
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 09:44 PM CST
<< I want a macquahuitl, so I can beat down some ninjas Aztec style.
I'd love that.
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
I'd love that.
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
SYLER
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 09:47 PM CST
Though.
Really it would just be completeing Elothean culture which has Kimonos and is blatantly Japanese in aesthetics.
Though I'm sure there's an applicable mayan/aztec comparative in DR.
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
Really it would just be completeing Elothean culture which has Kimonos and is blatantly Japanese in aesthetics.
Though I'm sure there's an applicable mayan/aztec comparative in DR.
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
JARAAD
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 10:04 PM CST
Pattern welding as used in Europe really isn't completely comparable to differential tempering. Not simply enough to say that pattern welding is superior to differential tempering, certainly.
Pattern welding different metals with different properties (usually two batches of steel with different carbon content, thus different hardness) had two effects. First, like folding a single batch of steel as done in katana creation, it removed or homogenized impurities and slag in the metal. Second, it created a blade that had certain layers for strength and certain layers for hardness, both of which are necessary for a good sword but both of which are essentially mutually exclusive--the harder a blade is, the better it will hold an edge, but also the easier it will break.
In katana creation, these two effects were essentially divided into two tasks. A single batch of steel was folded several times, working out impurities in the metal; and differential tempering was used to provide a mixture of strength and hardness. Typically clay would be wrapped around the spine and blade before final quenching, leaving the edge bare, and when the sword was quenched the spine would cool much more slowly than the edge. This gave the edge a far greater hardness than the spine (a sword vendor showing off one of his katanas to me recently said that the spine had a Rockwell hardness of 40 while the edge was at 60). Overall, this achieves the same effect as pattern-welding with two different batches of steel--it creates a blade that is strong enough to withstand combat, while having an edge that is hard enough to stay sharp.
It's an oversimplification to say that katanas were the best swords ever, but it's also an oversimplification to say that they were "primitive." The masterpiece swords of Toledo, Damascus, and Japan are actually on an almost even footing, because all three were essentially perfections in their own style.
Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.
Pattern welding different metals with different properties (usually two batches of steel with different carbon content, thus different hardness) had two effects. First, like folding a single batch of steel as done in katana creation, it removed or homogenized impurities and slag in the metal. Second, it created a blade that had certain layers for strength and certain layers for hardness, both of which are necessary for a good sword but both of which are essentially mutually exclusive--the harder a blade is, the better it will hold an edge, but also the easier it will break.
In katana creation, these two effects were essentially divided into two tasks. A single batch of steel was folded several times, working out impurities in the metal; and differential tempering was used to provide a mixture of strength and hardness. Typically clay would be wrapped around the spine and blade before final quenching, leaving the edge bare, and when the sword was quenched the spine would cool much more slowly than the edge. This gave the edge a far greater hardness than the spine (a sword vendor showing off one of his katanas to me recently said that the spine had a Rockwell hardness of 40 while the edge was at 60). Overall, this achieves the same effect as pattern-welding with two different batches of steel--it creates a blade that is strong enough to withstand combat, while having an edge that is hard enough to stay sharp.
It's an oversimplification to say that katanas were the best swords ever, but it's also an oversimplification to say that they were "primitive." The masterpiece swords of Toledo, Damascus, and Japan are actually on an almost even footing, because all three were essentially perfections in their own style.
Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.
JARAAD
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 10:08 PM CST
<<Though I'm sure there's an applicable mayan/aztec comparative in DR.>>
M'Riss. And, we already have those, or they're at least in development. I'm not sure which.
<<A riste is a Rissan-specific weapon based on the meso-american maquahuitl. You can see Tusfaov's if you look at him. They're pretty vicious weapons, despite being from a society with "lesser technology". They're deadly bladed weapons, and have a blunt paddle side for smacking an enemy as well.>>
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=8&topic=11&message=3461
Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.
M'Riss. And, we already have those, or they're at least in development. I'm not sure which.
<<A riste is a Rissan-specific weapon based on the meso-american maquahuitl. You can see Tusfaov's if you look at him. They're pretty vicious weapons, despite being from a society with "lesser technology". They're deadly bladed weapons, and have a blunt paddle side for smacking an enemy as well.>>
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=8&topic=11&message=3461
Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.
JARAAD
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 10:15 PM CST
PS: I'm not exactly in agreement with this:
<<despite being from a society with "lesser technology">>
Cause the Aztecs were one of the most technologically advanced peoples in the Americas for a very, very, very long time. While a maquahuitl isn't necessarily technically superior or even in the same league as European and Asian masterpiece swords, the Aztecs certainly were very advanced in areas such as architecture and mathematics.
Just putting the post out there. :)
Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.
<<despite being from a society with "lesser technology">>
Cause the Aztecs were one of the most technologically advanced peoples in the Americas for a very, very, very long time. While a maquahuitl isn't necessarily technically superior or even in the same league as European and Asian masterpiece swords, the Aztecs certainly were very advanced in areas such as architecture and mathematics.
Just putting the post out there. :)
Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.
DR-CHAKRAM
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 10:54 PM CST
<<Cause the Aztecs were one of the most technologically advanced peoples in the Americas for a very, very, very long time. While a maquahuitl isn't necessarily technically superior or even in the same league as European and Asian masterpiece swords, the Aztecs certainly were very advanced in areas such as architecture and mathematics.
Just putting the post out there. :)>>
Definitely. They were one of the first cultures to come up with the concept of zero. Also, they were pretty decent in astronomy (probably not as great as the Egyptians). Different is not necessarily worse.
-Chakram
"NVNC ID VIDES, NVNC NE VIDES"
"Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before" - Mae West
Just putting the post out there. :)>>
Definitely. They were one of the first cultures to come up with the concept of zero. Also, they were pretty decent in astronomy (probably not as great as the Egyptians). Different is not necessarily worse.
-Chakram
"NVNC ID VIDES, NVNC NE VIDES"
"Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before" - Mae West
SYLER
Re: Katana time
10/31/2005 11:05 PM CST
As a math major, I can say, Zero. Is really messed up.
::nod slight::
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
::nod slight::
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
YUDHEH
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 04:09 AM CST
<<Another thing to remember is the katana is a curved weapon. Curved weapons, because of their displacement properties when striking, are best suited to drawing cuts rather than cleaving cuts. This also means that the katana by design is relatively ineffective against heavy armor. Japan never used armor as heavy as Europe; Japanese armor, by the time knights were wearing armor-of-proof (bulletproof), was little beyond small steel plates and chain held together with silk straps (silk has very high tensile strength). They never needed a dedicated armor-crushing weapon, like the European warhammer or halberd. The katana was designed to cause bleeding lascerations on unarmored and lightly armored targets, similar to the scimitar and shamshir of the Middle East where it's too hot to wear heavy armor.>>
I'm not arguing that the katana is a God Weapon. But during the era that they were used, many Japanese beleived that the katana had a soal of it's own. Some swords were more imfamous than the person who was weilding it and katanas were passed down through generations, keeping all of their own history.
Katanas were designed to slice and once a blade was finished, it was tested and marked with the stamp of the creator and a number. The number represented the number of bodies it would cut through in one giri. They would tie prisoners who were condemned to death and see how many bodies the blade could get through cleanly.
As for the armor used during the period, in many cases it was more ornamental than practical. But then to a Samurai, they would just as soon fight naked. Battle was like a religious experience and they weren't concerned so much with things such as death. As long as it brought them honour.
Also, the Japanese certainly did have weapons such as the war hammer and the halbred. For example, the naginata. The naginata was generally a long staff with a 20 - 30 inch blade on the end. The blade was curved like a wakizashi strapped to the end of a bo staff.
And it's true that the weapons were adapted to suit the times. As that is the case in most cultures. There was a version of the katana which was designed for horseback combat and was much longer and heavier than the normal katana. (The proper name of this weapon escapes me right now and I'm too lazy to look it up).
As far as a katana cutting through a tank...I don't know what that was about. Surely, some katanas could cut through others, but it's not real smart to go around trying to cut swords with them. That's not what they were meant for. And it would certainly damage any sword.
Also...bullet-proof armor? I don't think so. There is no substance yet that is bullet-PROOF, only bullet resistant. There are bullets that will go through a tank. And kevlar can stop some bullets, but not all. Ceramic plates are actually much more effective, but still not the end all, bullet-PROOF substance.
Maybe, compared to every other weapon in the world, the katana is not a godly weapon; but in Japan at the time, it was the poo. And to anyone who wants to roleplay a medeival Japanese type character of any sort, it is also the poo.
I'd like to see other oriental weapons IG as well. There are some chinese weapons that are just awesome and there is nothing like them IG at all. Like a Sectional staff.
Pete~Player of several in the Realms of Dragons.
"Yeah, we'll call you," muttered Ron as the knight disappeared, "if we ever need someone mental." -RON (Harry Potter, TPOA)
A man's fate is a man's fate and life is but an illusion- James Clavell
I'm not arguing that the katana is a God Weapon. But during the era that they were used, many Japanese beleived that the katana had a soal of it's own. Some swords were more imfamous than the person who was weilding it and katanas were passed down through generations, keeping all of their own history.
Katanas were designed to slice and once a blade was finished, it was tested and marked with the stamp of the creator and a number. The number represented the number of bodies it would cut through in one giri. They would tie prisoners who were condemned to death and see how many bodies the blade could get through cleanly.
As for the armor used during the period, in many cases it was more ornamental than practical. But then to a Samurai, they would just as soon fight naked. Battle was like a religious experience and they weren't concerned so much with things such as death. As long as it brought them honour.
Also, the Japanese certainly did have weapons such as the war hammer and the halbred. For example, the naginata. The naginata was generally a long staff with a 20 - 30 inch blade on the end. The blade was curved like a wakizashi strapped to the end of a bo staff.
And it's true that the weapons were adapted to suit the times. As that is the case in most cultures. There was a version of the katana which was designed for horseback combat and was much longer and heavier than the normal katana. (The proper name of this weapon escapes me right now and I'm too lazy to look it up).
As far as a katana cutting through a tank...I don't know what that was about. Surely, some katanas could cut through others, but it's not real smart to go around trying to cut swords with them. That's not what they were meant for. And it would certainly damage any sword.
Also...bullet-proof armor? I don't think so. There is no substance yet that is bullet-PROOF, only bullet resistant. There are bullets that will go through a tank. And kevlar can stop some bullets, but not all. Ceramic plates are actually much more effective, but still not the end all, bullet-PROOF substance.
Maybe, compared to every other weapon in the world, the katana is not a godly weapon; but in Japan at the time, it was the poo. And to anyone who wants to roleplay a medeival Japanese type character of any sort, it is also the poo.
I'd like to see other oriental weapons IG as well. There are some chinese weapons that are just awesome and there is nothing like them IG at all. Like a Sectional staff.
Pete~Player of several in the Realms of Dragons.
"Yeah, we'll call you," muttered Ron as the knight disappeared, "if we ever need someone mental." -RON (Harry Potter, TPOA)
A man's fate is a man's fate and life is but an illusion- James Clavell
JARAAD
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 10:56 AM CST
<<Katanas were designed to slice and once a blade was finished, it was tested and marked with the stamp of the creator and a number. The number represented the number of bodies it would cut through in one giri. They would tie prisoners who were condemned to death and see how many bodies the blade could get through cleanly.>>
Depends mostly on the type of blade. This is applicable mostly to iaitou, or swords used in iaijutsu; the art of drawing and striking in the same motion. Back then and even still today, the "bodies" in question could also be simulated by using a thick bundle of bamboo wrapped in wet leather. In fact, it's somewhat harder to cut through something like that than it would be to cut through a soft fleshy human, bamboo is a remarkably tough wood.
<<As for the armor used during the period, in many cases it was more ornamental than practical.>>
Actually, a lot of it was quite workable. It would deflect a spear-thrust from an infantryman, even if it wasn't particularly well-suited to stopping a katana. Though a lot of it was certainly decorative as well.
<<There was a version of the katana which was designed for horseback combat and was much longer and heavier than the normal katana. (The proper name of this weapon escapes me right now and I'm too lazy to look it up).>>
Tachi. You may also be thinking of the nodachi, but nodachi were used against cavalry more than they were used by cavalry.
<<As far as a katana cutting through a tank...I don't know what that was about.>>
Just exaggeration on the poster's part, to point out that some people think a katana really could do something like this. Obviously it couldn't.
<<Also...bullet-proof armor? I don't think so.>>
Yeah... Certainly, European field plate wasn't. It wasn't proof against bullets, against arrows shot from a longbow, or against bolts shot from an arbalest, which are the major reasons people stopped wearing it.
<<I'd like to see other oriental weapons IG as well. There are some chinese weapons that are just awesome and there is nothing like them IG at all. Like a Sectional staff.>>
I think there is a three-section staff in-game, actually?
Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.
Depends mostly on the type of blade. This is applicable mostly to iaitou, or swords used in iaijutsu; the art of drawing and striking in the same motion. Back then and even still today, the "bodies" in question could also be simulated by using a thick bundle of bamboo wrapped in wet leather. In fact, it's somewhat harder to cut through something like that than it would be to cut through a soft fleshy human, bamboo is a remarkably tough wood.
<<As for the armor used during the period, in many cases it was more ornamental than practical.>>
Actually, a lot of it was quite workable. It would deflect a spear-thrust from an infantryman, even if it wasn't particularly well-suited to stopping a katana. Though a lot of it was certainly decorative as well.
<<There was a version of the katana which was designed for horseback combat and was much longer and heavier than the normal katana. (The proper name of this weapon escapes me right now and I'm too lazy to look it up).>>
Tachi. You may also be thinking of the nodachi, but nodachi were used against cavalry more than they were used by cavalry.
<<As far as a katana cutting through a tank...I don't know what that was about.>>
Just exaggeration on the poster's part, to point out that some people think a katana really could do something like this. Obviously it couldn't.
<<Also...bullet-proof armor? I don't think so.>>
Yeah... Certainly, European field plate wasn't. It wasn't proof against bullets, against arrows shot from a longbow, or against bolts shot from an arbalest, which are the major reasons people stopped wearing it.
<<I'd like to see other oriental weapons IG as well. There are some chinese weapons that are just awesome and there is nothing like them IG at all. Like a Sectional staff.>>
I think there is a three-section staff in-game, actually?
Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.
YUDHEH
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 02:16 PM CST
<<Depends mostly on the type of blade. This is applicable mostly to iaitou, or swords used in iaijutsu; the art of drawing and striking in the same motion. Back then and even still today, the "bodies" in question could also be simulated by using a thick bundle of bamboo wrapped in wet leather. In fact, it's somewhat harder to cut through something like that than it would be to cut through a soft fleshy human, bamboo is a remarkably tough wood.>>
Thanks. You seem to know exactly what I'm talking about even though I was unable to articulate it myself. I should not be reading or responding to the forums late at night on little sleep.
Anyway, I agree that the simulated materials are likely more difficult to cut through. I also notice that they still use some variation of these targets in tameshigiri practice for Iaido and iaijutsu.
I was in fact referring to the tachi, but now that you bring it up, the nodachi also fits into what I was trying to say.
I didn't want to get into a metallurgical debate with anyone. I'm certainly no expert on that subject. I just get a little offended when people assume that because you request anything oriental in the game, you want to be a ninja when the culture offers so much more in roleplay potential than that.
It also annoys me because there are many items IG from other areas of the world, but you never see a Hakama in the Habedasher's or a Keikogi or anything. Although we are finally starting to see Kimonos and Origami is big. Does everyone who folds origami play their character as a ninja? Sorry to rant, it just pushes my buttons and there isn't much that pushes my buttons about a game.
It's like saying that everyone IG who uses a claymore wants to be William Wallace because of Braveheart or something.
But this is a great conversation for the boards. It's great to see how knowledgeable and interested some people are about the culture and the current practices,etc.
<<I think there is a three-section staff in-game, actually?>>
Wow! I must find one. Thank you.
Pete~Player of several in the Realms of Dragons.
"Yeah, we'll call you," muttered Ron as the knight disappeared, "if we ever need someone mental." -RON (Harry Potter, TPOA)
A man's fate is a man's fate and life is but an illusion- James Clavell
Thanks. You seem to know exactly what I'm talking about even though I was unable to articulate it myself. I should not be reading or responding to the forums late at night on little sleep.
Anyway, I agree that the simulated materials are likely more difficult to cut through. I also notice that they still use some variation of these targets in tameshigiri practice for Iaido and iaijutsu.
I was in fact referring to the tachi, but now that you bring it up, the nodachi also fits into what I was trying to say.
I didn't want to get into a metallurgical debate with anyone. I'm certainly no expert on that subject. I just get a little offended when people assume that because you request anything oriental in the game, you want to be a ninja when the culture offers so much more in roleplay potential than that.
It also annoys me because there are many items IG from other areas of the world, but you never see a Hakama in the Habedasher's or a Keikogi or anything. Although we are finally starting to see Kimonos and Origami is big. Does everyone who folds origami play their character as a ninja? Sorry to rant, it just pushes my buttons and there isn't much that pushes my buttons about a game.
It's like saying that everyone IG who uses a claymore wants to be William Wallace because of Braveheart or something.
But this is a great conversation for the boards. It's great to see how knowledgeable and interested some people are about the culture and the current practices,etc.
<<I think there is a three-section staff in-game, actually?>>
Wow! I must find one. Thank you.
Pete~Player of several in the Realms of Dragons.
"Yeah, we'll call you," muttered Ron as the knight disappeared, "if we ever need someone mental." -RON (Harry Potter, TPOA)
A man's fate is a man's fate and life is but an illusion- James Clavell
NKRISS
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 03:38 PM CST
>>Katanas are not "godly chop-through-streetlamps-leet-ginsu" weapons. They are swords. Just like any other sword, a katana is mortal, and bound by reality.
Depends on if they were made by Hattori Hanzo or not, obviously.
(And whether or not you're a pissed off bride with a bullet hole in your skull.)
-Teeklin
"I am a leaf in the wind. Watch how I soar."
Depends on if they were made by Hattori Hanzo or not, obviously.
(And whether or not you're a pissed off bride with a bullet hole in your skull.)
-Teeklin
"I am a leaf in the wind. Watch how I soar."
DRAQ
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 04:21 PM CST
>Katanas are not "godly chop-through-streetlamps-leet-ginsu" weapons.
Alright starting to get sick of people mocking that street lamp statement. I thought it was obvious that was a joke.
Steel.
OMG! YOU HAVE <insert ability here> YOU ARE OVERPOWERED! DIE, GUILD, DIE!
Alright starting to get sick of people mocking that street lamp statement. I thought it was obvious that was a joke.
Steel.
OMG! YOU HAVE <insert ability here> YOU ARE OVERPOWERED! DIE, GUILD, DIE!
SYLER
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 04:24 PM CST
Sadly, the Hanzo swords are made of 1100 Spring metal, and thus, tend to break :(
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
SYLER
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 04:26 PM CST
It was a joke?
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
DRAQ
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 04:29 PM CST
>It was a joke?
It is now.
Steel.
OMG! YOU HAVE <insert ability here> YOU ARE OVERPOWERED! DIE, GUILD, DIE!
It is now.
Steel.
OMG! YOU HAVE <insert ability here> YOU ARE OVERPOWERED! DIE, GUILD, DIE!
SYLER
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 04:31 PM CST
Or.. is it?
Also
http://www.samurai-archives.com/hanzo.html
That's a neat reference for KillBill Fans. Hrm. I wonder how much that influenced the character design?
I can't find anything interesting beyond the parallel of a name...
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
Also
http://www.samurai-archives.com/hanzo.html
That's a neat reference for KillBill Fans. Hrm. I wonder how much that influenced the character design?
I can't find anything interesting beyond the parallel of a name...
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
YENLOWANG1
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 05:00 PM CST
Actually, Jaraad, late medieval field plate WAS proof against arrows and shot. You have to remember shot back in the fifteenth century had the consistency of pencil lead.
It was called "armor of proof" because to prove it was strong enough to withstand these, the smith would either fire a close range crossbow shot or a medium range musket shot into the armor. The "proof" was the dent left behind. Armor of proof could not withstand the point blank crossbow or musket, but in the chaos of a cavalry charge a point blank shot that didn't deflect off was uncommon, making the armor effective.
This was one of the reasons the longbow was supplanted by the musket. Arrows no longer had the ability to deter heavy cavalry. Also one of the reasons why the sword became a secondary weapon in Europe, with the warhammer and mace taking the primary role. Swords no longer had the necessary power to injure a man wearing armor of proof.
Of course, with the refinement of the firearm and the usage of stronger shot, armor of proof became useless. For the short time it was used however, it served its purpose as protecting cavalry as they attacked.
It was called "armor of proof" because to prove it was strong enough to withstand these, the smith would either fire a close range crossbow shot or a medium range musket shot into the armor. The "proof" was the dent left behind. Armor of proof could not withstand the point blank crossbow or musket, but in the chaos of a cavalry charge a point blank shot that didn't deflect off was uncommon, making the armor effective.
This was one of the reasons the longbow was supplanted by the musket. Arrows no longer had the ability to deter heavy cavalry. Also one of the reasons why the sword became a secondary weapon in Europe, with the warhammer and mace taking the primary role. Swords no longer had the necessary power to injure a man wearing armor of proof.
Of course, with the refinement of the firearm and the usage of stronger shot, armor of proof became useless. For the short time it was used however, it served its purpose as protecting cavalry as they attacked.
IMPAVIKLIM
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 05:21 PM CST
>This gave the edge a far greater hardness than the spine (a sword vendor showing off one of his katanas to me recently said that the spine had a Rockwell hardness of 40 while the edge was at 60)
Just want to point out that first, there wouldn't be a large difference in the hardness between the two areas of the blade. Second, 40 and 60 are arbitrary without the scale they are being used on. I'm guessing the C scale using a diamond cone, but regardless, weapons from other civilizations actually surpass katanas in hardness and quality.
For hardness (ability to hold an edge) see: Indian jade knives, ceramic knives, and ivory knives.
For quality (durability) see: most European steel, primarily French. Also Turkish steel and Chinese scimitars.
The appeal of the katana, and the folding damascene process in general, is the balance between hardness and durability, as well as the practicality of having what basically amount to miniscule runners throughout the entire blade which prevents suction from trapping the blade in the carcass/victim.
Thrall of Dergati,
Heroiklim Zortal
Cast of iron, dull grey and pitted, this altar is cold and lifeless. A thin coating of rust covers its surface. The words "Even Death We Master" are scrawled across the altar, defacing even destruction.
Just want to point out that first, there wouldn't be a large difference in the hardness between the two areas of the blade. Second, 40 and 60 are arbitrary without the scale they are being used on. I'm guessing the C scale using a diamond cone, but regardless, weapons from other civilizations actually surpass katanas in hardness and quality.
For hardness (ability to hold an edge) see: Indian jade knives, ceramic knives, and ivory knives.
For quality (durability) see: most European steel, primarily French. Also Turkish steel and Chinese scimitars.
The appeal of the katana, and the folding damascene process in general, is the balance between hardness and durability, as well as the practicality of having what basically amount to miniscule runners throughout the entire blade which prevents suction from trapping the blade in the carcass/victim.
Thrall of Dergati,
Heroiklim Zortal
Cast of iron, dull grey and pitted, this altar is cold and lifeless. A thin coating of rust covers its surface. The words "Even Death We Master" are scrawled across the altar, defacing even destruction.
BENNERR
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 06:26 PM CST
Armor was irrelevant, in the boggy marshes in europe during that time, just shoot the horse. Person fell off, couldn't get back up and so died in the mud. It was a classic tactic.
Arctuniol
In an open world who needs Windows or Gates.
Arctuniol
In an open world who needs Windows or Gates.
REALMWANDERER
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 07:36 PM CST
Armor was irrelevant, in the boggy marshes in europe during that time, just shoot the horse. Person fell off, couldn't get back up and so died in the mud. It was a classic tactic.
Arctuniol <--
::chuckle::
Jim
"Arrogance:
The best leaders inspire by example. When that's not an option, brute intimidation works pretty well, too."
Arctuniol <--
::chuckle::
Jim
"Arrogance:
The best leaders inspire by example. When that's not an option, brute intimidation works pretty well, too."
SYLER
Re: Katana time
11/01/2005 08:47 PM CST
<<late medieval field plate WAS proof against arrows and shot.
.....
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
.....
(This Is Not) Mrrar
Out of Context Theatre
"Shaved head, but in a good way."--Ragran
COLDBLADE
Re: Katana time
11/21/2005 04:26 PM CST
>>Katanas are not "godly chop-through-streetlamps-leet-ginsu" weapons. They are swords. Just like any other sword, a katana is mortal, and bound by reality.
-Seducati, RL sword and armor smith<<
god bless you!
teach the ignorant masses!
-Seducati, RL sword and armor smith<<
god bless you!
teach the ignorant masses!
