Holy cow! I'm beyond impressed. Thank you guys so much!

This is me heading off to inform the entire order...

Did each order make their own title? Let's see what your titles are!

________
Huldah: I for one welcome our new lithping overlordth.
Me: Oh god it's contagious.

I can appreciate your concerns Val, on these new titles. You mentioned a few yet didn't suggest alternatives. The speakers of the orders work VERY hard and deserve such recognition. They don't "just get voted in" and if they do, they don't keep the position long if the order is to thrive. You know as well as I do that orders have been around MUCH longer than the military has.

You also mention how the titles that Frodes and Gwen have are diminished. How? Do the speakers of the order NOT provide the same service if not more so than the Sr. Commanders? They too should be recognized for all their hard work and their level of skill shouldn't even be an issue. They also lose this title if they step down or are voted out.

If you feel this strongly then perhaps suggest alternatives for these devoted people. Its not JUST about love but the respect and the recognition they deserve and have been overlooked for quite some time now.

By the way, we ALL were informed that should we choose one of the new titles we HAVE to have our affilliation up. We are NOT permitted to walk around claiming to be the Ambassador of anything BUT our order.

Rallyne

I think that General, Ambassador etc are fine titles so long as they are worn with the affiliation title of the order i.e. "Ambassador of the Order of the Dragon Shield." These titles are only granted to higher ranking members of the order, right? So it should be pretty easy to prevent and regulate any abuse.

As far as titles like General go, it isn't the first title to have widely varying requirements depending on who was going for it. The Nightmare title comes to mind.

>> I believe the larger issue is the need to bring all official player-organized groups (Orders, government, militias) under one system so that they can all benefit from the good infrastructure and support that is being set up by the Orders team.

I agree with this. It would be nice to see militias become official.

---

Rev. Reene

"Even if you are a 1,000 year old Necrolord who is so steeped in blasphemy that your words cause the ground to shake and the sky to darken, you do not tick off Kssarh." - Armifer

You know i laughed at this situation simply because, I never thought General should have been a paladin title considering how many people want to impersonate officers. There have been a few cases and i'm not pointing out any names when the Commander and General titlels have been abused by none milita members.

I personally have no seroius investment in ODS, but in this case i can say two things i know to be true about the order in general. They are answerable to the Baron, and operate as a part of Therengia's defense, the command structure is very firm, and i don't think the titles will be abused, nor do they upset any "Hard" work anyone has done. To be real, i'd rather see sometimes like this go to real leaders, then someone with X amount of skill in X areas who don't know the first thing about organizing a group of people to do anything but make jokes.

Drex is one of the few General my character would probably recognize, and just seeing how some orders respond and corrdinate with invasions alone shows the work and dedication to such titles. I have been disappointed at some of the Leadership positions taken up by certain people to watch them not make any decision or just stand around and make the position a joke. This is not a slam on anyone but some titles should go to those who deserve them then those who have the circles for them.

So to talk about cheap accomplishments,I think of those who wear titles like General without ever trying to lead a single thing is pretty cheap. Since ODS is answerable to the Baron I don't see how them having their own internal structure of leadership is upseting Forbes or Gwen position, if so then their leadership might be lacking. The head of the ODS no matter what they might be called, will be answerable to the Baron no matter their title or rank within ODS.




"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~

>>Per the GM in charge of these sorts of things, no, militias are not official.<<

Big-o Official in the very specific Orders sense, they aren't.


- Mazrian

While I can understand the allure of a cool new title this is pretty much a slap in the face to those of us who worked our butts off to obtain challenging titles.

Chieftain isn't just given to anyone who joins my guild. You need to put some serious effort in your multi opponent skills.

I like Drex. She's always been super nice to me but she ain't a General. Being the leader of an Order doesn't mean you're fit to lead a brigade into the field. Unfortunately, all this really does is cheapen the title of General. I already had little to no respect for the Commander title once they started handing it out to people who couldn't hunt beyond bristle back peccaries. How can I follow anyone in to battle when they are dead within the first 20 seconds of an invasion or they hide far from the battle itself?

I realize in real war the General ain't out there guns ablazing but chances are that General did his time and put fourth some serious effort. He just wasn't handed the fancy title.

I think there should be some serious thought to re-organizing the titles and there should be some house cleaning.

- Galren

>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.

I swore I wasn't going to post. I can't help myself apparently.

ODS was always a military order as was the Apostles. Back in the day, Theren Guard took care of the north side of the lake and ODS took care of Haven. All orders had some kind of command titles for their leaders, long before the military was around. In fact, the impression was that the military thing was going to be temporary this time like they were for the Gorbesh war.

Orders have been around for 8 years, and for those 8 years we've patiently waited for the perks and benefits we were told we'd get one day. All orders have had ambassador positions, long before the courts were around. The members of orders work very hard for little recognition because they enjoy the game and want to help make it a better place. We as speakers pushed to have more titles for them other than general members, because they deserve it for all that they do and for sticking it out with the broken systems and half finished things that went with orders as well as the long periods of time between having orders GMs. We're very grateful to Ariawen for realizing those dreams and promises from years ago, even beyond our expectations. We're very grateful to Solomon and Obsedon for the support and helping make these things come to be. We weren't actually told to make sure we wear our affiliation titles, I imposed that on ODS myself and I can't vouch for what the other speakers will choose to do. I continue to hold us to a high standard and will continue to do so while I hold this position. I'm supported in that view by the members of ODS, we police ourselves much harder than we're policed by the GMs.

Now on a personal note. I'm sorry that donning the General title is so upsetting to you. I put it on as a lark and the members loved it, it made them proud. I kept it on. If Quarel has issue with the implied rank of it he'll let me know and it'll come off. But just like Senior Commander doesn't diminish the title of Commander for Worrclan or Speaker for me and Aaiyaah, being an order General doesn't make Senior Commander insignificant.

The jab about my being a mid level barbarian cut me to the quick because I thought of all people, you knew why I'm still only mid level. After reading that, for the first time in all the years I've been in DR I actually questioned whether or not it's been worth spending all my time in the game "working hard" on everything except circling. If I'd spent my time hunting instead of the long hours I put into mentors, the court and ODS I wouldn't be mid level. It always seemed worth it, until I read that. Then I thought about it. It's still worth it. Mentors meant more, the court meant more and ODS means more than being seen as a high circle barb. That's just how it is. If I don't deserve the title, take solace in the fact that it's temporary. When I step down it's up to the next Speaker if he'll wear it unless the GMs yank it due to complaints, which is fine if it happens.

>> I got a nudge from an Events Gm though asking I not wear it, it was apparently upsetting folks.

God people in this game are whiny.

---

Rev. Reene

"Even if you are a 1,000 year old Necrolord who is so steeped in blasphemy that your words cause the ground to shake and the sky to darken, you do not tick off Kssarh." - Armifer

Ari,

The needs of official orders and other groups that are recognized through Events seem similar enough that they could be handled under the same system. Might it be beneficial to sit down with the Events team and have a pow-wow about titles and support in general?

You're doing a great job with Orders and I'm excited to see what is going to come next. As support for Orders increases and support for militias and government groups (my perception only, mind) wanes, there is a real opportunity to bring those people into the fold and use them to grow the RP environment. There is also a real possibility those people will grow disillusioned and bitter if they are left in the cold for too long.

Just my opinion drawn from several years working around the orders, PC-positions of responsibility, and the militias. There is a challenge to be met and a great opportunity here if the Events and Orders teams are able to collaborate.

- Mazrian

I keep reading about efforts and hard work being cheapened for paladins and barbarians, and about possible interest waning for military and PC event groups. What people aren't understanding and comprehending is that for *eight years* official Orders have been waiting to get theirs, period. We've BEEN working hard for all this time. We've been waiting through the lack of development, the long months without a GM to support events and the inability to have titles at all. Any titles. We just this year got our first ones.

You cannot just form a group of people and instantly be an official order. You cannot maintain an official order status without putting in work and effort. You cannot just join an official order and be given something. You certainly cannot just be handed a Speaker position and title for doing nothing. Running an order is very time consuming and hard work and it's amazing to me to even see that likened to some of the PC positions *than I personally have held myself*. I have held the positions of Envoy, then Ambassador and then Court Advisor. I know full well what those require as a player. I have been a member of the military other than ODS. I'm not ignorant here of the differences between any of this.

Speakers and Vice Speakers are put into a position of answering to GMs directly. In Therengia it's not just Ariawen we answer to but Quarel's GMPCs as well. We answer for the members of the Order and the Order itself. Then we answer to the entire body of members and the council of the Order. We are constantly at the beck and call of those that need us. Between Aaiyaah and I we put in a minimum of 80 hours a week on just Order related work. This is our own personal time that we don't spend hunting or training or socializing. I'm beyond impressed that Aaiyaah was able to attain the General title on his own. He's not offended that I put on my order General title because he's fully aware of how much work goes into the Speaker position himself.

My goal when I do get to pass on the scepter is to do some serious catching up on my own training. I'll have the time to seriously hunt and travel and work on nothing but circling. I'm over halfway to the Chieftain title as it is, I just can't devote enough hours to the fun part of actually hunting to circle just yet.

Drex,

Everyone appreciates your hard work on behalf of your Order. You have done a heck of a job.

The issues at play, at least in my opinion, are not about anyone's personal devotion (which is beyond questioning) or whether Orders are deserving of support (they are). Rather, they have to do with coordinating between Events and Orders and making sure that all of Elanthia's organized groups are able to benefit from a supportive environment.

The discussion going on about titles suggests there is an opportunity to make that relationship more productive. My hope is that Ariawan and the new Events lead (and Quarrel, who has been around for more first-hand Event history than probably anyone else on staff) can sit down and review where everyone stands, then work out a coordinated way forward that is beneficial for everyone.


- Mazrian

Thank you.

I really don't have a problem with different "requirements" being for the use of "general". I tend to more associate it with RL differences between the skills of "generals" of different nations. Even soldiers of different Realworld nations have different levels of training. Sort of like in the movie 300. Where the spartans are challenging the athenians ... What is your profession, and the athenians were, pottery maker, etc. and the Spartan replies ... I am a Warrior.




<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>

>> General Zukir vs. Thief guild event.

....

http://reene.euphoricsoup.com/galleries/toons/reality.png

---

Rev. Reene

"Even if you are a 1,000 year old Necrolord who is so steeped in blasphemy that your words cause the ground to shake and the sky to darken, you do not tick off Kssarh." - Armifer

then you missed the point, which wasn't about the event, but about the function of militias.


<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>

A title does not make the character or the leader. People will follow a person they respect, trust and think can get the job done. Folks have the common sense to not follow a title IMO.

That being said, I understand the complaint, and my personal opinion is that "high level titles" for certain guilds should be left alone. Personally, I do not believe "General" is an "exclusive" paladin title. I do believe Chieftan is very much a staple of the barbarian guild.

Madigan

True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.

Arthur Ashe

>>Especially since the Baron never officially filled that position once he had promoted Amlach to Field Marshal. Since a General is in charge of 2 or more Commanders, that has been a difficult position for him to fill.

Isn't that what a Senior Commander does too (at least as far as the badging mechanics)?


~Thilan

<<Putting Generals into the mix that are not in charge of all Commanders within that Province could get very confusing to the Chain of Command.>>

If this confuses you then it doesn't really take much. Which is a scary prospect for a senior commander to get confused about the chain of command. That logic applies for anyone in a chain of command in a province.

If Drexella or any Order selects two commanders in their Order would that make you feel better? I really doubt it.


<<In real life orders, the Speaker has never been known as a General, so I am unsure why this was ever considered.>>

This is a game in real life we don't have magic or walk around waiting to be invaded by hordes of beast.

<<In other words, I agree that these titles should only be held by those completing the requirements unless the leader of the Province chooses to promote a Commander to that position via RP and offcially give them a General's badge. I cannot see a province with 5 General's, one for every order, and that is what would happen if every order Speaker would be given that title.>

So its okay for their to be 20 Generals if they meet a guild requirement but not for there to be one who actaully leads an Order with enough members to function as a invidiual military force within the Province. This makes absolutely no sense as a argument. So a genereal of nothing is better then a General of something which contributes to the betterment of Therengia.

No one has YET to make a really clear and logical argument against it beyond, I feel its wrong. If your milita is getting confused that easily about who they report to then something is lacking in discipine in the milita. The limited number of people who hold these title is so elite and few I cannot see it as being that seroiusly upsetting to a guild. Now if General and Lord General became Estate holder titles considering there are so many estate holders, then i could see a issue.



"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~

>in real life we don't have magic or walk around waiting to be invaded by hordes of beast.

Speak for yourself.

~ Sage Kougen Aensworth, Star Shaper of the Compact

Ruea says, "I swear, I'm forsaking Damaris and building an altar to you."

"I am Captain America (and so can you!)" - http://i25.tinypic.com/157m7a1.jpg