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Combat is not meant to be a one stop shop for all your training needs.
As a totally separate topic - First Aid is likely skill #2 in the list of "Skills that need work". (Performance having held that top spot proudly for awhile now).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DR-RAESH
KMORSE
Re: Teaching Updates
04/05/2015 07:48 PM CDT
There are a few problems with that. At the high end, going to take numerous pretty heavy bleeders to keep it moving effectively without investing too much time. As it is, those random lucky strikes, in completely safe hunting already seem to home in on a bleeder or two. This almost always results in a stun for me (80+ stats btw, so it cant scale down much with disc). As you increase the number of targets, you increase the frequency of the stuns, making a potentially horrible situation via being stunned and continuously off balance in combat.
Couple that with numerous wounds that are relatively severe, and you run the risk of a lucky strike versus a stunned and off balanced player destroying things. Sometimes important things.
SHIHARI
Re: Teaching Updates
04/05/2015 07:54 PM CDT
Thank you for responding. Yes, there's no one-stop-shop for all skills to learn in combat. But, as Empaths, it does seem a little bizarre that a Necromancer can learn First Aid quite well and we cannot at all. I'm not comparing apples to oranges so much as pointing out that as the "healer" niche there isn't a leeway there for learning it according to our play style preference. Like, say, the way field Empaths can manipulate for Empathy rather than scramble for patients. I like being mobile and not tied to a hospital and I certainly don't want to be a slave to area gweths either. I'm really happy to hear that First Aid is on the list!
BADGOPHER
Re: Teaching Updates
04/05/2015 08:18 PM CDT
>But, as Empaths, it does seem a little bizarre that a Necromancer can learn First Aid quite well and we cannot at all.
Necromancers are Survival primary, empaths are not?
Necromancers are Survival primary, empaths are not?
SHIHARI
Re: Teaching Updates
04/05/2015 08:30 PM CDT
>>Necromancers are Survival primary, empaths are not?
I would normally agree with you except the nature of a hard requirement implies a level of proficiency that the guild deems necessary to be effective, which in a way, makes that particular skill in and of itself behave as if it were primary in skill set. Not to mention that unless the information on Elanthipedia is inaccurate, which I doubt, Empaths get a bonus to First Aid. It's just my impressions on it, I'm definitely not thinking in absolutes. I'll miss the teaching, that's for sure and Isharon is definitely correct that it was a band-aid. Hearing that the skill is going to be assessed is wonderful news all around.
I would normally agree with you except the nature of a hard requirement implies a level of proficiency that the guild deems necessary to be effective, which in a way, makes that particular skill in and of itself behave as if it were primary in skill set. Not to mention that unless the information on Elanthipedia is inaccurate, which I doubt, Empaths get a bonus to First Aid. It's just my impressions on it, I'm definitely not thinking in absolutes. I'll miss the teaching, that's for sure and Isharon is definitely correct that it was a band-aid. Hearing that the skill is going to be assessed is wonderful news all around.
BLUERIDER
Re: Teaching Updates
04/05/2015 09:11 PM CDT
>>Observe, specifically?
Yes, I didn't try just normally listening. I figured observing would provide the most scholarship.
“I’m sorry that your mystical, godlike powers do not instantly work as you would like them to.”
Yes, I didn't try just normally listening. I figured observing would provide the most scholarship.
“I’m sorry that your mystical, godlike powers do not instantly work as you would like them to.”
DR-RAESH
Re: Teaching Updates
04/05/2015 09:22 PM CDT
I'm trying to track down the cause of the bug is all.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Teaching Updates
04/06/2015 09:10 AM CDT
Is there still a same race same guild bonus for teaching?
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ASHAMAN1
Re: Teaching Updates
04/06/2015 09:23 AM CDT
-Raesh
When you get a moment, can you take another look at the mid-high end range for teaching experience (out of combat). I had the chance to teach a pair of high scholar/high stat students today and saw substantially lower gains from doing such. Thanks.
Samsaren
When you get a moment, can you take another look at the mid-high end range for teaching experience (out of combat). I had the chance to teach a pair of high scholar/high stat students today and saw substantially lower gains from doing such. Thanks.
Samsaren
DR-RAESH
Re: Teaching Updates
04/06/2015 11:33 AM CDT
I did not change the same race/guild bonuses.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ISHARON
Re: Teaching Updates
04/06/2015 02:28 PM CDT
>>DR-Raesh: I did not change the same race/guild bonuses.
If the teacher and student are the same race and guild, is that a better bonus than being the same race or guild (but not both)?
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If the teacher and student are the same race and guild, is that a better bonus than being the same race or guild (but not both)?
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ROBERTDH
Re: Teaching Updates
04/06/2015 03:08 PM CDT
>If the teacher and student are the same race and guild, is that a better bonus than being the same race or guild (but not both)?
I thought this was the case, but I've been wrong about observations of the teaching system before!
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
I thought this was the case, but I've been wrong about observations of the teaching system before!
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
DR-RAESH
Re: Teaching Updates
04/06/2015 08:20 PM CDT
They are separate bonuses, yes.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DR-RAESH
Re: Teaching Updates
04/08/2015 06:48 PM CDT
>>I did some testing here. You might recall that I did some testing on exp per pulse after your first round of changes but before this one (posted in the Bard folders). In that test, I found that one pulse of teaching taught my student 2.21% of a rank of Outfitting regardless of whether my student and I had a Scholarship buff. One possible explanation for that was that I was hitting the limit of exp per pulse even without the buff.
So, I dug into this, and it's not a cap problem. (It's actually so far away from a cap problem I put the old cap back in for safety).
It's the nature of the exp formula for teaching - the primary way the student's scholarship factors in is as a ratio compared to the teacher's teaching. If the student is a better scholar than the teacher is a teacher, they get a bonus. If they're worse, they get a penalty. And it's fairly tightly bounded. In the sample you set me your teaching skill was vastly outclassing your student's skill so even with the scholarship bonus it wasn't enough to get him off the bottom rail of the ratio, thus you don't see any improvement in pulse size.
Do I think it's a good formula? Not really. But fixing it would involve some drastic revisions to the teaching formulas to make sure I didn't end up making teaching vastly over or under powered and would likely end with me burning down the entire teaching system and starting from scratch rather then building on nearly 20 years of patch work code. And that's just not a project I'm prepared to delve into at this time.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
So, I dug into this, and it's not a cap problem. (It's actually so far away from a cap problem I put the old cap back in for safety).
It's the nature of the exp formula for teaching - the primary way the student's scholarship factors in is as a ratio compared to the teacher's teaching. If the student is a better scholar than the teacher is a teacher, they get a bonus. If they're worse, they get a penalty. And it's fairly tightly bounded. In the sample you set me your teaching skill was vastly outclassing your student's skill so even with the scholarship bonus it wasn't enough to get him off the bottom rail of the ratio, thus you don't see any improvement in pulse size.
Do I think it's a good formula? Not really. But fixing it would involve some drastic revisions to the teaching formulas to make sure I didn't end up making teaching vastly over or under powered and would likely end with me burning down the entire teaching system and starting from scratch rather then building on nearly 20 years of patch work code. And that's just not a project I'm prepared to delve into at this time.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ILLIENA
Re: Teaching Updates
04/08/2015 07:14 PM CDT
Thanks for looking into it.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but that doesn't entirely make sense to me. You say that this is the primary way the student's scholarship comes into play, but is it also the primary way the teacher's teaching is used? Because I wasn't just giving my student a scholarship boost; I was also giving myself one. What you're describing means that the boost to my student's scholarship was irrelevant, but unless that's the only place the teacher's teaching is used, shouldn't the boost to my own still have made a difference? And if that is the only place the teacher's teaching is used, that means that teaching effectiveness decreases with skill, which seems like particularly perverse design.
Also, there's the question of the charisma buff. In the both the samples I sent you, I was using a charisma buff, but in other testing without a charisma buff I saw the exact same pulse size. Shouldn't that have made a difference?
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but that doesn't entirely make sense to me. You say that this is the primary way the student's scholarship comes into play, but is it also the primary way the teacher's teaching is used? Because I wasn't just giving my student a scholarship boost; I was also giving myself one. What you're describing means that the boost to my student's scholarship was irrelevant, but unless that's the only place the teacher's teaching is used, shouldn't the boost to my own still have made a difference? And if that is the only place the teacher's teaching is used, that means that teaching effectiveness decreases with skill, which seems like particularly perverse design.
Also, there's the question of the charisma buff. In the both the samples I sent you, I was using a charisma buff, but in other testing without a charisma buff I saw the exact same pulse size. Shouldn't that have made a difference?
ISHARON
Re: Teaching Updates
04/10/2015 05:30 PM CDT
>>Isharon: This isn't the right thread for brainstorming ideas to expand first aid. I have some thoughts, and I will post them on the relevant board (Survival Skills - Staying Alive)
I've posted them here: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/Survival%20Skills%20-%20Staying%20Alive/view/1694
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I've posted them here: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/Survival%20Skills%20-%20Staying%20Alive/view/1694
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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