I've noticed there are some templates that seem completely similar if not exact in almost every way, except difficulty and tier, and maybe weight. Are they really the same, or are there differences beyond the cosmetics? It just makes me wonder what the point of doing some of the more difficult patterns would be, if there are patterns much easier that appraise and compare pretty much exactly the same?
~Van
SPYRAUX
NINEVAH1
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/12/2015 11:26 AM CDT
Could you post some examples? I haven't made every single template to compare them all, but I've compared the majority and while some are similar I've not seen any templates that are within the same chapter that are exactly the same.
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 09:37 AM CDT
Well, the ones I were noticing were in the composite category. Bows like, the Reflex bow and the Battle bow, or the Competition bow and the Horseman's bow. These bows take different levels of skill, and some are of different tier in difficulty, but they appraise and compare exactly the same, aside from some minimal weight differences.
For instance:
A sandalwood competition bow is a composite bow type weapon.
A sandalwood competition bow trains the bow skill.
The competition bow is extremely well designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the bow is reasonably balanced and is very well suited for adding attack power from its draw strength.
The bow appears set for a draw strength that is very low for a bow of this type.
The bow does not appear to have an adjustable draw strength.
You are certain that the competition bow is quite fragile and easily damaged, and is in pristine condition.
It appears that the competition bow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the competition bow weighs exactly 54 stones.
You are certain that the competition bow is worth exactly 12562 Kronars.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
A sandalwood horseman's bow is a composite bow type weapon.
A sandalwood horseman's bow trains the bow skill.
The horseman's bow is extremely well designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the bow is reasonably balanced and is very well suited for adding attack power from its draw strength.
The bow appears set for a draw strength that is very low for a bow of this type.
The bow does not appear to have an adjustable draw strength.
You are certain that the horseman's bow is quite fragile and easily damaged, and is practically in mint condition.
It appears that the horseman's bow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the horseman's bow weighs exactly 42 stones.
You are certain that the horseman's bow is worth exactly 11100 Kronars.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
You are certain that the competition bow is about as balanced as the horseman's bow.
You are certain that the competition bow is about as suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength as the horseman's bow.
You are certain that the competition bow weighs somewhat more than the horseman's bow.
[Roundtime: 8 seconds]
~Van
For instance:
A sandalwood competition bow is a composite bow type weapon.
A sandalwood competition bow trains the bow skill.
The competition bow is extremely well designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the bow is reasonably balanced and is very well suited for adding attack power from its draw strength.
The bow appears set for a draw strength that is very low for a bow of this type.
The bow does not appear to have an adjustable draw strength.
You are certain that the competition bow is quite fragile and easily damaged, and is in pristine condition.
It appears that the competition bow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the competition bow weighs exactly 54 stones.
You are certain that the competition bow is worth exactly 12562 Kronars.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
A sandalwood horseman's bow is a composite bow type weapon.
A sandalwood horseman's bow trains the bow skill.
The horseman's bow is extremely well designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the bow is reasonably balanced and is very well suited for adding attack power from its draw strength.
The bow appears set for a draw strength that is very low for a bow of this type.
The bow does not appear to have an adjustable draw strength.
You are certain that the horseman's bow is quite fragile and easily damaged, and is practically in mint condition.
It appears that the horseman's bow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the horseman's bow weighs exactly 42 stones.
You are certain that the horseman's bow is worth exactly 11100 Kronars.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
You are certain that the competition bow is about as balanced as the horseman's bow.
You are certain that the competition bow is about as suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength as the horseman's bow.
You are certain that the competition bow weighs somewhat more than the horseman's bow.
[Roundtime: 8 seconds]
~Van
NINEVAH1
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 04:57 PM CDT
Interesting. I wonder if the numbers are different but close enough to be within the same ranges. I wish I had the skill to make those with any kind of quality to test different woods. Kodius could chime in and just tell us too though.
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 05:55 PM CDT
Yeah, I'd like him to tell us. Because that's what I've been wondering. For all intents and purposes, and amounts of testing I have done, they are exactly the same, except for a few stones. With the more difficult one actually being heavier. Same applies for the reflex bow and the battle bow.
~Van
~Van
NINEVAH1
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 06:02 PM CDT
>>Same applies for the reflex bow and the battle bow.
It could be a template problem in the books too. I remember in Test that the reflex bow was not as powerful as the battle bow in appraisals. It's very possible that since only a small handful of people could make comp bows at release that it got missed. My guess is it's a bug rather than being intentional.
It could be a template problem in the books too. I remember in Test that the reflex bow was not as powerful as the battle bow in appraisals. It's very possible that since only a small handful of people could make comp bows at release that it got missed. My guess is it's a bug rather than being intentional.
DRFREAK3
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 06:36 PM CDT
Have you tried comparing them?
You can see tiny differences in certain bows that you wouldn't see otherwise. This is most apparent when enhancing the bows.
You can see tiny differences in certain bows that you wouldn't see otherwise. This is most apparent when enhancing the bows.
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 08:15 PM CDT
<<Have you tried comparing them? >>
Yes. I included the comparison appraisal in my previous post. The appraisals of both bows, and their comparisons should be there.
~Van
Yes. I included the comparison appraisal in my previous post. The appraisals of both bows, and their comparisons should be there.
~Van
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 09:30 PM CDT
I heard/read somewhere that density doesn't matter for bow shaping.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 09:47 PM CDT
<<I heard/read somewhere that density doesn't matter for bow shaping.>>
Aye, I don't think it does. I was mostly stating that bit as being the only difference I can notice. And if a bow was to be "better", I'd have considered a lighter one to be so, if all the other properties were equal.
~Van
Aye, I don't think it does. I was mostly stating that bit as being the only difference I can notice. And if a bow was to be "better", I'd have considered a lighter one to be so, if all the other properties were equal.
~Van
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 09:53 PM CDT
>>Aye, I don't think it does. I was mostly stating that bit as being the only difference I can notice. And if a bow was to be "better", I'd have considered a lighter one to be so, if all the other properties were equal.
I can't speak to how "accurate" this is, but it would have been neat if density was tied to draw strength. So heavier bows have bigger RTs/hit harder and lighter bows have smaller RTs/hit weaker.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I can't speak to how "accurate" this is, but it would have been neat if density was tied to draw strength. So heavier bows have bigger RTs/hit harder and lighter bows have smaller RTs/hit weaker.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
NINEVAH1
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 10:21 PM CDT
>>but it would have been neat if density was tied to draw strength. So heavier bows have bigger RTs/hit harder and lighter bows have smaller RTs/hit weaker.
Yea, I was kind of disappointed when I found out that density/weight played no part in bow stats. Something like this would have allowed for a lot more customization within each bow template so everyone could make the perfect bow for their own needs. It would also have given more difference between rare woods except durability and weight.
Yea, I was kind of disappointed when I found out that density/weight played no part in bow stats. Something like this would have allowed for a lot more customization within each bow template so everyone could make the perfect bow for their own needs. It would also have given more difference between rare woods except durability and weight.
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 10:44 PM CDT
<<I can't speak to how "accurate" this is, but it would have been neat if density was tied to draw strength. So heavier bows have bigger RTs/hit harder and lighter bows have smaller RTs/hit weaker.>>
Well, there is the property of wood called stiffness. But I have no idea what it contributes to. Draw weight, from what I can tell, is completely determined by type/class of bow made. And from there, the property seems to have no affect on it. A cedar(stiffness: 27) has the same draw weight and load time as lelori(stiffness: 85) one of the same class. They do, however, change when you lighten/cable back the bow. But it seems to be just a figure to let you know if it's been enhanced or not, with wood property playing no practical part. I'm guessing this factor is something that may become more important when adjustable ones or take-downs come out.
~Van
Well, there is the property of wood called stiffness. But I have no idea what it contributes to. Draw weight, from what I can tell, is completely determined by type/class of bow made. And from there, the property seems to have no affect on it. A cedar(stiffness: 27) has the same draw weight and load time as lelori(stiffness: 85) one of the same class. They do, however, change when you lighten/cable back the bow. But it seems to be just a figure to let you know if it's been enhanced or not, with wood property playing no practical part. I'm guessing this factor is something that may become more important when adjustable ones or take-downs come out.
~Van
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 10:52 PM CDT
<<Yea, I was kind of disappointed when I found out that density/weight played no part in bow stats. Something like this would have allowed for a lot more customization within each bow template so everyone could make the perfect bow for their own needs. It would also have given more difference between rare woods except durability and weight.>>
Yes, I felt the same way. I was really hoping for a much greater sense of customization to bow templates. So that each archer could really fine tune their bow to their own style, and really end up with a vast array of different types of bows. Though, I know that's easier said than done.
But so far, it seems really simple at it's core. Almost all factors are rolled up together and determined by bow type, and wood suitability for that type. Which is one reason why I think almost everyone owns and shoots the same kind of bows.
~Van
Yes, I felt the same way. I was really hoping for a much greater sense of customization to bow templates. So that each archer could really fine tune their bow to their own style, and really end up with a vast array of different types of bows. Though, I know that's easier said than done.
But so far, it seems really simple at it's core. Almost all factors are rolled up together and determined by bow type, and wood suitability for that type. Which is one reason why I think almost everyone owns and shoots the same kind of bows.
~Van
NINEVAH1
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/13/2015 11:05 PM CDT
>>But so far, it seems really simple at it's core. Almost all factors are rolled up together and determined by bow type, and wood suitability for that type. Which is one reason why I think almost everyone owns and shoots the same kind of bows.
I agree. It seems right now that once you pick the bow template you want the only decision is how much/little durability it has.
Once you have a rare wood bow in the template you want there is absolutely no reason to get a new bow ever again.
I agree. It seems right now that once you pick the bow template you want the only decision is how much/little durability it has.
Once you have a rare wood bow in the template you want there is absolutely no reason to get a new bow ever again.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/14/2015 11:21 PM CDT
The reflex bow is easier to make, weighs less and has less durability than a battle bow. The same holds true for many of the bow types, though it might not always be visible on the appraise.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/14/2015 11:24 PM CDT
>>Once you have a rare wood bow in the template you want there is absolutely no reason to get a new bow ever again
The same is pretty much true for all weapons and armor. DR, unlike most RPGs, does not really feature equipment progression. This has frustrated me greatly over the years because introducing it now would be extremely confusing and unpopular.
Bows do not have sufficient stats for me to have another modifying variable. Bow POWER is directly tied to DPS and cannot be modified in any meaningful way without breaking the entire system completely. So you are left with Force and Balance. I didn't feel it worth the extra month of development effort so folks could play with those...
No, my hope is that through enchanting we introduce a weapon progression at the end game. It is the best/only thing I can come up with at this point.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
The same is pretty much true for all weapons and armor. DR, unlike most RPGs, does not really feature equipment progression. This has frustrated me greatly over the years because introducing it now would be extremely confusing and unpopular.
Bows do not have sufficient stats for me to have another modifying variable. Bow POWER is directly tied to DPS and cannot be modified in any meaningful way without breaking the entire system completely. So you are left with Force and Balance. I didn't feel it worth the extra month of development effort so folks could play with those...
No, my hope is that through enchanting we introduce a weapon progression at the end game. It is the best/only thing I can come up with at this point.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
NINEVAH1
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/14/2015 11:44 PM CDT
>>Bows do not have sufficient stats for me to have another modifying variable. Bow POWER is directly tied to DPS and cannot be modified in any meaningful way without breaking the entire system completely. So you are left with Force and Balance. I didn't feel it worth the extra month of development effort so folks could play with those...
I get it, but you have spoiled us with the customization that Forging allows with weapons and armor. I'm not trying to be critical because I love the work you do and always look forward to your next release. Shaping was just something I have been waiting for you to release for a long time and I guess I got my expectations about it a bit too high. Either way I still enjoy the new bows much more than the previous system.
I just couldn't help but notice you went a different direction with bows than previous systems by making durability more of a choice by making bows either have 85 affinity or 95 with no materials in between. I know that as time goes more wood will be added and we will see more variety then, but I'm just impatient.
>>No, my hope is that through enchanting we introduce a weapon progression at the end game. It is the best/only thing I can come up with at this point.
Looking forward to it.
I get it, but you have spoiled us with the customization that Forging allows with weapons and armor. I'm not trying to be critical because I love the work you do and always look forward to your next release. Shaping was just something I have been waiting for you to release for a long time and I guess I got my expectations about it a bit too high. Either way I still enjoy the new bows much more than the previous system.
I just couldn't help but notice you went a different direction with bows than previous systems by making durability more of a choice by making bows either have 85 affinity or 95 with no materials in between. I know that as time goes more wood will be added and we will see more variety then, but I'm just impatient.
>>No, my hope is that through enchanting we introduce a weapon progression at the end game. It is the best/only thing I can come up with at this point.
Looking forward to it.
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/15/2015 05:35 PM CDT
<<The reflex bow is easier to make, weighs less and has less durability than a battle bow. The same holds true for many of the bow types, though it might not always be visible on the appraise.>>
Doesn't this just make the reflex bow better then? I mean, weight so far, hasn't seemed to mean much of anything in bows. So, lighter is better, if it's not affecting anything. Would this be true or not? All the other stats, for most anything that any player can notice and test, seem the same. You're saying there is definitely some more to the higher bows? It's just seemed so negligable, for the extra tiers of more difficulty and skill they take to make. I just remember someone saying once that it was mentioned by you that the competition bows served no other purpose than to fill a crafting tier/skill demand.
<<The same is pretty much true for all weapons and armor. DR, unlike most RPGs, does not really feature equipment progression. This has frustrated me greatly over the years because introducing it now would be extremely confusing and unpopular.>>
I understand with the progression thing. But people definitely do get heavier weapons as they get stronger. So far, with bows, aside from it's class(which determines everything from power to base RT), the only thing you need is high affinity. Does the wood stiffness attribute play a part in anything so far at all? I wasn't able to noticed anything obvious so far through my tests.
I think it'd be neat to have a secondary level of potential augmentations with something like, different material backers for bows maybe. Or at the very least, decoration or enhancement type(I really don't like the look of cable backed bows). Or tailored bow strings/silencers for things like stealth bonuses(like old hunter bows), or other customization potentials.
~Van
Doesn't this just make the reflex bow better then? I mean, weight so far, hasn't seemed to mean much of anything in bows. So, lighter is better, if it's not affecting anything. Would this be true or not? All the other stats, for most anything that any player can notice and test, seem the same. You're saying there is definitely some more to the higher bows? It's just seemed so negligable, for the extra tiers of more difficulty and skill they take to make. I just remember someone saying once that it was mentioned by you that the competition bows served no other purpose than to fill a crafting tier/skill demand.
<<The same is pretty much true for all weapons and armor. DR, unlike most RPGs, does not really feature equipment progression. This has frustrated me greatly over the years because introducing it now would be extremely confusing and unpopular.>>
I understand with the progression thing. But people definitely do get heavier weapons as they get stronger. So far, with bows, aside from it's class(which determines everything from power to base RT), the only thing you need is high affinity. Does the wood stiffness attribute play a part in anything so far at all? I wasn't able to noticed anything obvious so far through my tests.
I think it'd be neat to have a secondary level of potential augmentations with something like, different material backers for bows maybe. Or at the very least, decoration or enhancement type(I really don't like the look of cable backed bows). Or tailored bow strings/silencers for things like stealth bonuses(like old hunter bows), or other customization potentials.
~Van
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/15/2015 05:37 PM CDT
Also, you mentioned going over some existing bows to refit them into the new performance curve. Is this still something in the plans?
~Van
~Van
DR-KODIUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/16/2015 09:52 PM CDT
>>Doesn't this just make the reflex bow better then?
It depends on if you favor durability over weight. This is similar to how you could say piecemeal armor is always better than a hauberk because it hinders slightly less - but weighs more. Or how I added 4 forms for each "type" of weapon stat assignment. Variety is often good and fun!
The goal is really to have no bow/weapon/armor that is hands-down better in all situations for all players. Additional differentiation will come later. But it has a gigantic development cost that I couldn't fit into this juncture.
We went from a system where every bow and crossbow was essentially doing the same damage with different RTs, to a system where you can pick a bow with a RT you are comfortable with and have the damage balanced accordingly. That is progress. But I do realize folks want even more. I just don't have time for it right now.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
It depends on if you favor durability over weight. This is similar to how you could say piecemeal armor is always better than a hauberk because it hinders slightly less - but weighs more. Or how I added 4 forms for each "type" of weapon stat assignment. Variety is often good and fun!
The goal is really to have no bow/weapon/armor that is hands-down better in all situations for all players. Additional differentiation will come later. But it has a gigantic development cost that I couldn't fit into this juncture.
We went from a system where every bow and crossbow was essentially doing the same damage with different RTs, to a system where you can pick a bow with a RT you are comfortable with and have the damage balanced accordingly. That is progress. But I do realize folks want even more. I just don't have time for it right now.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
SPYRAUX
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/17/2015 09:22 AM CDT
<<It depends on if you favor durability over weight. This is similar to how you could say piecemeal armor is always better than a hauberk because it hinders slightly less - but weighs more. Or how I added 4 forms for each "type" of weapon stat assignment. Variety is often good and fun!>>
Ah, I see. You're putting it on a scale of durability vs. weight. I was just looking at weight as it's own independent attribute, in which less would always be better. And you're right, variety is good, and something I very much support.
<<Additional differentiation will come later. But it has a gigantic development cost that I couldn't fit into this juncture.>>
I'm glad to hear this. However the gigantic dev cost sounds both intriguing and uneasy. I'm curious at what this will mean.
<<We went from a system where every bow and crossbow was essentially doing the same damage with different RTs, to a system where you can pick a bow with a RT you are comfortable with and have the damage balanced accordingly. That is progress. But I do realize folks want even more. I just don't have time for it right now.>>
And the progress has been great. Thank you for all of it. I hope my concerns don't diminish the appreciation in all your work. Naturally people will always want more. I think it's mostly just exciting again, because we can start to see it's ability to grow. And that is a good thing.
~Van
Ah, I see. You're putting it on a scale of durability vs. weight. I was just looking at weight as it's own independent attribute, in which less would always be better. And you're right, variety is good, and something I very much support.
<<Additional differentiation will come later. But it has a gigantic development cost that I couldn't fit into this juncture.>>
I'm glad to hear this. However the gigantic dev cost sounds both intriguing and uneasy. I'm curious at what this will mean.
<<We went from a system where every bow and crossbow was essentially doing the same damage with different RTs, to a system where you can pick a bow with a RT you are comfortable with and have the damage balanced accordingly. That is progress. But I do realize folks want even more. I just don't have time for it right now.>>
And the progress has been great. Thank you for all of it. I hope my concerns don't diminish the appreciation in all your work. Naturally people will always want more. I think it's mostly just exciting again, because we can start to see it's ability to grow. And that is a good thing.
~Van
DR-KODIUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/19/2015 01:04 PM CDT
Thank you for being understanding :)
If folks could add to the Wiki a section for wanted enhancements/embellishments for certain item types that would help guide my work when I get there.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
If folks could add to the Wiki a section for wanted enhancements/embellishments for certain item types that would help guide my work when I get there.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
MELLIONM18
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 03:31 PM CDT
The same is pretty much true for all weapons and armor. DR, unlike most RPGs, does not really feature equipment progression.
This is actually one of my favorite features of DR. The whole "you need to be X level to wield this super-special 8-oz dagger" never really made much sense. Gemstone tries really hard with "inner power capable of overcoming an object's inherent magical nature to wield equipment", but even they fall a little short of the credibility mark.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a book of apprentice carving instructions, you are certain that the dire bear is a truly skilled opponent.
This is actually one of my favorite features of DR. The whole "you need to be X level to wield this super-special 8-oz dagger" never really made much sense. Gemstone tries really hard with "inner power capable of overcoming an object's inherent magical nature to wield equipment", but even they fall a little short of the credibility mark.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a book of apprentice carving instructions, you are certain that the dire bear is a truly skilled opponent.
VOLCANUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 04:00 PM CDT
> This is actually one of my favorite features of DR.
I agree. There's something naturally organic about DR. You don't have to reach whatever arbitrary level to suddenly start using super sword of doom; however, if you try to use it before you have the stamina and strength then it'll wear you down. You just can't get the most out of it until you've prepared yourself, but the power gain is gradual and smooth rather than weak > level > wear weapon > powerful.
THAYET
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 04:03 PM CDT
I'm not sure where you get "gradual" from. I've never felt like gear progression in DR was gradual at all. People generally jump from crappy to the best they can get as soon as they can. There is zero reason not to start using haralun whatever as soon as you can start doing so.
The way to do it would probably be to gate the use of each material behind X ranks without suffering much higher hindrance penalties but it's kinda too late to do something like that.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
The way to do it would probably be to gate the use of each material behind X ranks without suffering much higher hindrance penalties but it's kinda too late to do something like that.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
VOLCANUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 04:23 PM CDT
> People generally jump from crappy to the best they can get as soon as they can.
Let's say I pulled a brand new paladin out of the CM and equipped them with some damite plate, triple-reinforced shield, a serrated axe. They're going to do well, but they're going to grow into the power as they get more strength, stamina, discipline, reflex, and general skills.
Now compare this to another game using the general formula. You put these big, heavy, expensive items in your backpack. You wait until you turn 20 or 30 or 60. You equip them then. Massive power spike from the common items the level before, and you use them to their fullest as soon as you put them on.
NINEVAH1
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 04:24 PM CDT
I'm not a fan of gear progression, and it's one of the things I like about DR.
That said I am all for some end-game gear to enchantments and such, but I would be against interrupting the gear that is already in game though.
That said I am all for some end-game gear to enchantments and such, but I would be against interrupting the gear that is already in game though.
THAYET
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 04:26 PM CDT
Other games that include gear progression also generally have different tiers of gear at different levels. The irony is that DR actually does have enough materials to do something like this but there is zero incentive to gradually move up instead of jump straight to the best thing you can afford because the difference is incredibly minimal.
I've been using tyrium and diamondhide since my teens circle-wise and there was absolutely zero drawback in doing so. I had reached the bottom in terms of swing RT and hindrance by around 30th and prior to then didn't even notice it at all. Considering how the game curves nowadays, that really isn't progression.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I've been using tyrium and diamondhide since my teens circle-wise and there was absolutely zero drawback in doing so. I had reached the bottom in terms of swing RT and hindrance by around 30th and prior to then didn't even notice it at all. Considering how the game curves nowadays, that really isn't progression.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
VOLCANUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 04:54 PM CDT
> The irony is that DR actually does have enough materials to do something like this but there is zero incentive to gradually move up instead of jump straight to the best thing you can afford because the difference is incredibly minimal.
I disagree with this. I start new characters all the time, and some I deck out while others I put in store bought gear.
There is a huge difference between a light weapon and a heavy weapon to fresh characters. Hinderances mean you're hit every other blow vs every few. You can't even hide in some of the more hindering armors armors until you gain several ranks, and even then it's going to take a while before you do it consistently in front of mobs.
> I've been using tyrium and diamondhide since my teens circle-wise and there was absolutely zero drawback in doing so. I had reached the bottom in terms of swing RT and hindrance by around 30th and prior to then didn't even notice it at all. Considering how the game curves nowadays, that really isn't progression.
I have a hard time believing this.
Based on the formula here (https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:New_RT_Formulas_-_11/22/2012_-_14:57), even with a 40 stone hi-end auction sword (https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Weapon:Folded_tyrium_and_kertig_katana_with_an_elaborately_watermarked_blade), you'd still be a ways away from the minimum RT even if you had 30 in all stats, which you won't at level 30. That'll be closer to level 50. Sure, you could push physical stats at the cost of mentals, but you're going to suffer elsewhere as a result.
Now, for the 90% of the game that can't afford what is literally the best all around gear for every new alt, that chart will take longer to scale. However, you won't see the big power boost when you turn 50. You'll see gradual power boosts along the way. That's what I'm saying.
THAYET
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 04:57 PM CDT
>> I have a hard time believing this.
There isn't really anything to have a discussion about if you are flat-out unwilling to believe what I say.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
There isn't really anything to have a discussion about if you are flat-out unwilling to believe what I say.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
VOLCANUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 05:02 PM CDT
> There isn't really anything to have a discussion about if you are flat-out unwilling to believe what I say.
I linked the formula for RT modifiers posted by a GM and a Tyrium sword that showed why I disbelieved the claim you were making. If you want me to accept your opinion as fact despite evidence to the contrary then you're right, this won't be a productive conversation.
THAYET
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 05:06 PM CDT
You linked a HE/2HE auction weapon, both a different weapon type and much heavier than my own weapon, with the argument that this disproves what I said for reasons.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
VOLCANUS
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/22/2015 05:53 PM CDT
> You linked a HE/2HE auction weapon, both a different weapon type and much heavier than my own weapon, with the argument that this disproves what I said for reasons.
As I can't see the weapon you're envisioning in your mind, why don't you enlighten me. What are the stats?
CLEARLEAF
Re: Bow template difficulties
09/24/2015 08:42 PM CDT
Huh. Guess I don't see the argument.
I started with short-hafted halberd on this character because a full polearm was too heavy. When I could afford it, I got a 37 stone forged halberd - pre 3.0 crafting and rare mats (lighter than a short hafted, hits harder and from pole! yay!). When I was strong enough for 3/4 at 60 stones I made a 60 stone glaive (pre-mechlore split). Now I have a 69 stone glaes ranseur. When I hit 60 strength and stamina I'll probably upgrade to a heavier kertig glaive. When/if I hit 80/80 (keep all my stats pretty much within a point or two) I'll probably upgrade again. My other main weapons followed a similar path.
As far as bows go, I can't really claim that weight is impacting me sticking with short for now - mostly my own RP desire to make my own bow, and when I get to the point where I can mastercraft comp bows I'll probably switch. However I imagine if I was just out of the character generator, I might want to start with a short and move up to comp bow or something as I get stronger and encumbrance is less of an issue.
I realize not everyone continues to dump into strength their entire career, but that doesn't mean there's no continuous progression available.
I started with short-hafted halberd on this character because a full polearm was too heavy. When I could afford it, I got a 37 stone forged halberd - pre 3.0 crafting and rare mats (lighter than a short hafted, hits harder and from pole! yay!). When I was strong enough for 3/4 at 60 stones I made a 60 stone glaive (pre-mechlore split). Now I have a 69 stone glaes ranseur. When I hit 60 strength and stamina I'll probably upgrade to a heavier kertig glaive. When/if I hit 80/80 (keep all my stats pretty much within a point or two) I'll probably upgrade again. My other main weapons followed a similar path.
As far as bows go, I can't really claim that weight is impacting me sticking with short for now - mostly my own RP desire to make my own bow, and when I get to the point where I can mastercraft comp bows I'll probably switch. However I imagine if I was just out of the character generator, I might want to start with a short and move up to comp bow or something as I get stronger and encumbrance is less of an issue.
I realize not everyone continues to dump into strength their entire career, but that doesn't mean there's no continuous progression available.
CLEARLEAF
Re: Bow template difficulties - Is durability a thing?
10/12/2017 12:20 AM CDT
I'm not a necromancer in Real Life, but I do play one on the play.net forums...
<<DR-Kodius:The reflex bow is easier to make, weighs less and has less durability than a battle bow. The same holds true for many of the bow types, though it might not always be visible on the appraise.
<<DR-K: It depends on if you favor durability over weight. This is similar to how you could say piecemeal armor is always better than a hauberk because it hinders slightly less - but weighs more. Or how I added 4 forms for each "type" of weapon stat assignment. Variety is often good and fun!>>
>Ah, I see. You're putting it on a scale of durability vs. weight. I was just looking at weight as it's own independent attribute, in which less would >always be better. And you're right, variety is good, and something I very much support.
No really I realize this is a 2 year old thread. But came across this in search of something else and I couldn't let it go.
Isn't durability of a stick bow (or other ranged weapon) kind of a non-factor? The 'steppe bow' I've been using since Shaping was released hasn't really moved below 'almost pristine' condition since, well, Shaping was released. And I have a feeling that minor damage was from death (if that's even a thing anymore). Bow is one of the 5 weapons I cycle; rare-metal melee weapons definitely need repair occasionally, but not the bow. Xbow is backtrain so not as much use but still never needed repair.
Just sayin, maybe I'm doing something horribly wrong (or right, really) but for durability to be a determining factor it has to actually have meaning. I think.
<<DR-Kodius:The reflex bow is easier to make, weighs less and has less durability than a battle bow. The same holds true for many of the bow types, though it might not always be visible on the appraise.
<<DR-K: It depends on if you favor durability over weight. This is similar to how you could say piecemeal armor is always better than a hauberk because it hinders slightly less - but weighs more. Or how I added 4 forms for each "type" of weapon stat assignment. Variety is often good and fun!>>
>Ah, I see. You're putting it on a scale of durability vs. weight. I was just looking at weight as it's own independent attribute, in which less would >always be better. And you're right, variety is good, and something I very much support.
No really I realize this is a 2 year old thread. But came across this in search of something else and I couldn't let it go.
Isn't durability of a stick bow (or other ranged weapon) kind of a non-factor? The 'steppe bow' I've been using since Shaping was released hasn't really moved below 'almost pristine' condition since, well, Shaping was released. And I have a feeling that minor damage was from death (if that's even a thing anymore). Bow is one of the 5 weapons I cycle; rare-metal melee weapons definitely need repair occasionally, but not the bow. Xbow is backtrain so not as much use but still never needed repair.
Just sayin, maybe I'm doing something horribly wrong (or right, really) but for durability to be a determining factor it has to actually have meaning. I think.
