(Deleted my last post cause it was too snarky.)

He didn't change shields; he changed the appraisal messaging. So shields haven't lost any effectiveness. For comparison, here's the new arm-worn app of a capped old gargoyle-hide shield:

> You are certain that the shield offers dismal to moderate protection.

1st grade tl;dr version:

Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

>>don't mean to be rude

I have no way to respond to this in a reasonable manner... try again? :P

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

(new targe)
a damaska-skin targe
You are certain that it imposes moderate maneuvering hindrance.

This shield is small in size.

Your experience with shields allows a better appraisal of the protection capabilities.

You are certain that the targe offers rather low to very good protection.

weight: 60 stones




(old buckler)
a crocodile-skin buckler
You are certain that it imposes fair maneuvering hindrance.

This shield is small in size.

Your experience with shields allows a better appraisal of the protection capabilities.

You are certain that the buckler offers very poor to good protection.

weight: 50 stones


Just a comparison showing that high density new small leather shields can be better than old small shields even without rare materials. Not sure what more can be said.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

I just randomly picked one that I found in game which had been recently tanned. Not sure what material yours is made up of there, but it appears to be of a less dense material if only at 57 stones? I'm not discounting some math error existing, but haven't seen any evidence of it yet.

The other thing is even that shield isn't worse than an old tanned shield. Considering it isn't made of a rare material, I don't see a problem?

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Ahh, sorry. I tend to forget that it doesn't carry over the "hide" in appraisals like the old system did and completely misread your post and thought it was shalswar (its what I get for reading before work and trying to post after) so testing bison hide as a comparison.

How can a 75 physical Dama targe turn out better than a 85 physical Shalswar targe... there is a .3 difference in density per volume, but should that really make up two levels of low end protection

Also maybe I just need to look at my apps again, but for me the combination of new leather shields, small leather shield adjustments, and new app ranges, has "changed" the worth of several older large shields, which are the same or worse now to newly tanned small shields, especially that one you just posted which i really do think is bugged since you nerfed tanned shield that were at that level with an update, seemingly twice now already.

Honestly all the buffing and nerfing has even me a little spun around.

Some apps:
_________________

You tap a warrior's tower shield that you are holding.

Your experience with shields allows a better appraisal of the protection capabilities.

You are certain that the shield offers poor (5/26) to very high (15/26) protection.

You are certain that it could do:
no (0/26) puncture damage
no (0/26) slice damage
very great (12/26) impact damage

You are certain that the shield is inadequately (4/14) balanced and is reasonably (7/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the tower shield is marginally vulnerable to damage (8/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).

The tower shield is made with metal.
It appears that the tower shield can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the tower shield weighs exactly 190 stones.
You are certain that the tower shield is worth exactly 22189 dokoras.

___________________

You tap a gold-plated tower shield emblazoned with a majestic lion that you are holding.

You are certain that it imposes extreme (12/15) maneuvering hindrance.

This shield is large in size.

You are certain that the shield offers very poor (4/26) to great (16/26) protection.

You are certain that it could do:
no (0/26) puncture damage
no (0/26) slice damage
very severe (14/26) impact damage

You are certain that the shield is poorly (3/14) balanced and is reasonably (7/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the tower shield is marginally vulnerable to damage (8/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).

The tower shield is made with metal.
It appears that the tower shield can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the tower shield weighs exactly 190 stones.
You are certain that the tower shield is worth exactly 27060 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.

note Not sure why I dont get the extra line on the gold one, I haven't come across any other shield in the game that I dont
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NEW MASTERCRAFTED TARGE

You tap a storm-bull targe that you are holding.

You are certain that it imposes minor (4/15) maneuvering hindrance.

This shield is small in size.

Your experience with shields allows a better appraisal of the protection capabilities.

You are certain that the targe offers very poor (4/26) to very good (13/26) protection.

You are certain that it could do:
no (0/26) puncture damage
no (0/26) slice damage
very heavy (10/26) impact damage

You are certain that the targe is decently (6/14) balanced and is poorly (3/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the targe is appreciably susceptible to damage (7/18), and is practically in mint condition (90-97%).

It appears that the targe can be worn on the left arm.
You are certain that the targe weighs exactly 50 stones.
You are certain that the targe is worth exactly 32472 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
____________

I'm sure theres a lot of stuff I don't under stand, but it seems like the real goal should be to get a shield with the best possible low end, to save you from high/low rolls... these two old shields that two months ago I would of considered viable, are now garbage to me... but yes yes yes... Nothing has actually changed... except it kind of has.

Hasn't it?

Please avoid comparing shields that were "fixed" after-the-fact (you'd have received a message about the shield feeling less hindering when it corrected itself). The formula to fix them just dropped them to the lowest allowable hindrance for non-rare metal leather and it did not try to figure out exactly what their stats should have been. Such a complex mechanism would have seen shield making turned off for a few more weeks :(

Anyhow, I'll go whip up some damaska vs shalswar targes later and see if I can duplicate what you are seeing. I did a few dozen test shields this past weekend and everything seemed OK, but who knows....

And yes this is confusing for people but are absolutely necessary for this mess of legacy junk to have any semblance of balance in the end. I just could not allow a small tanned shield to have 95% the stats of a larger and more hindering metal shield.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>I was actually saying old metal large shields that used to be very good are now equal or one or two points better than small common shields

They are more than just one or two points. They are ranges which include several points per range. So while 2 ranges may not seem a lot, they are definitely far better than a couple of points.

I don't understand your problem here though. So you hate training shield, but are saying small shields are too good? Or that the non-forged older shields are too bad? Try some newly forged large shields if you want something better. I still use an old gargoyle shield though and it works perfectly.

I'm also an armor tert thief and my armors/shield are on par with my weapons. I've never had a problem keeping them up, and have never really focused in training on them. They just seem to keep up with everything else on their own. It seems to me you may need to adjust your training to learn shield better.

>They are more than just one or two points. They are ranges which include several points per range. So while 2 ranges may not seem a lot, they are definitely far better than a couple of points.

Semantics.

>I don't understand your problem here though.

A) I don't see the shield he posted as being correct under after all the changes.

B) I don't think with all the recent changes old large metal shields survived.

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>Try some newly forged large shields if you want something better.

You're probably right, yet I continue to fight for items that have been in the game for years, so that they just don't get thrown away... probably largely futile I know.

>I've never had a problem keeping them up.

Then you are intentionally holding your evasion and parry back. Been focusing on everything defensive for almost a year straight, primes, lores and terts (I'm sure I really dont even need to say) realize at different speeds.

Anyway everything after the break... I was mostly kidding and its off topic, so back to shields.

The changes are supposed to be about getting everything in line between what is small, what is medium, what is large... and working out the bugs... just trying to help.

Mostly that involves me playing devils advocate and pointing out things that appear off (::cough::like coarse leather helms having the wrong stats compared to other coarse leather::cough::)

I do appreciate all the time and effort the devs put in.

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>If you mean old large metal shields versus new tanned shields, the new tanned shields are nearly identical to old tanned shields so again, any perceived change is all in your head.

I guess what I mean is new tanned small shields vs old what would be called tier 5 large metal shields.

If you can really look at those large shield apps and say... yep thats what I want from those large shields. Great. Two shields that I used to use, I wont anymore because theres no point in not choosing a new small shield over one of the good old large shields.

I get that the shield itself hasnt changed with the app changes, but they did actually change before that... when you said you were changing all shields and then they changed again when you fixed small tanned shields... so there have been actual changes... but yes I do understand that any perceived changes just from the app update are just perceived.

I'm probably just a crazy person : )

I'll leave everyone alone for a while, and let the dust settle.

Keep up the good work.