Just trying to move the discussion on the old Music Theory split over to the appropriate folder.
I have always been a proponent of less skills with more meaning. With that in mind, I hope that we can have a meaningful discussion about merging instrumental skills back into Music Theory and making it an unrestricted Lore skill.
I realize that there are myriad pitfalls, icky situations and hurt feelings to be had, however, I think that we are at a point in the game's development that these types of decisions are being and have to be made.
I think that whatever ickiness might have to occur to make this work, the benefits would outweigh the potential hazards. Especially for the Bard guild, which I honestly feel is being hurt by having five musical skills available instead of one.
That being said, what do others think? I'm obviously biased towards Bards and towards a simpler skill setup overall, so I'm interested to see what others feel.
Thanks
GENT
LUCKYSEVENS
CHOSON
re: Music Theory split
02/13/2010 12:40 AM CST
I was gone when they changed it. What was the reasoning from splitting them in the first place?
YAMCER
re: Music Theory split
02/13/2010 01:30 AM CST
Music types have always been split, it was just only Bard could learn the individual music types. Non-bards learned Music Lore.
Music Lore was turned into Musical Theory and every non-bard's Music Theory bits were dumped into the five music types.
That is how I remember it anyways.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Music Lore was turned into Musical Theory and every non-bard's Music Theory bits were dumped into the five music types.
That is how I remember it anyways.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
ZUERCAT
re: Music Theory split
02/13/2010 01:54 AM CST
As a non-Bard but lore primary Empathy, I'm pretty ok with the music split. While it's a pain to carry around 3 instruments instead of 1, I think it makes more sense (having played a string instrument IRL, I know how pathetic I am with drums for example) and as a character, I do like the TDP gain x 4. I also think it makes sense that Bards learn overall Music Lore when doing anything music-related, they are training their ears and minds to recognize the ideal combination of tone and volume and place it in context to society and history. The rest of us schlubs are just putting notes next to each other that someone else has shown us sound pretty...:P
>I have always been a proponent of less skills with more meaning.
I would agree with this statement on survivals, weapons and armor skills, they are straight forward and easy to track the do the action more = do the action better line of thought. However, using the example above with the stringed vs. drums RL skills, I think the lores with the exception of the musics and teaching are a little too vague as they stand right now. For instance, I am really looking forward to the mech lore split, because currently it's really just a vague catch-all for anything having to do with...everything? It doesn't really make sense to me that while most of my ranks have come from alchemy (read: putting a pyramid on the ground) and origami (read: folding paper), I can help pound out a pretty mean set of full plate and stitch a decent pattern on a hip pouch. And see again, current TDP gain x 1 skill vs. the TDP gain x 6 skills after the ML break. That just can't be a bad thing...hehe.
And there's my two coppers,
Kythryn
>I have always been a proponent of less skills with more meaning.
I would agree with this statement on survivals, weapons and armor skills, they are straight forward and easy to track the do the action more = do the action better line of thought. However, using the example above with the stringed vs. drums RL skills, I think the lores with the exception of the musics and teaching are a little too vague as they stand right now. For instance, I am really looking forward to the mech lore split, because currently it's really just a vague catch-all for anything having to do with...everything? It doesn't really make sense to me that while most of my ranks have come from alchemy (read: putting a pyramid on the ground) and origami (read: folding paper), I can help pound out a pretty mean set of full plate and stitch a decent pattern on a hip pouch. And see again, current TDP gain x 1 skill vs. the TDP gain x 6 skills after the ML break. That just can't be a bad thing...hehe.
And there's my two coppers,
Kythryn
LUCKYSEVENS
re: Music Theory split
02/13/2010 12:48 PM CST
My greatest concern is that since the Musical Lore split, there has been almost no development of these skills in terms of making them useful to non-Bards, desirable for non-Bards to train or unique from each other, besides the method of training. Outside of gaining TDPs and the spirit regen bonus, there are no uses for instrumental or musical skills for non-Bards. Even Bards have no use for these skills outside of the marginal benefit they provide to playing enchantes!
Unless there are plans to make instrumental skills useful and unique to Bards and non-Bards from 0-2000 ranks, I think we should merge them back into one skill. It would allow for greater freedom in developing new ideas and abilities that apply to a variety of musical tasks, rather than having to design abilities that make sense for a single instrumental skill.
For instance, you can develop a Warn Horn system that relies on Musical Theory/Lore skill to perform but requires you perform the ability with a Wind instrument. No need for a Winds skill.
I'm doubly concerned about the Mech Lore split and how it will affect musical skills. There will be even less reason or incentive to train these instrumental skills that lead to no functional or mechanical benefit when you have seven new skills with clearly defined skill progressions and multiple mechanical benefits.
I think it would be a lifeline for the Bard guild and make sense for the game overall.
GENT
Unless there are plans to make instrumental skills useful and unique to Bards and non-Bards from 0-2000 ranks, I think we should merge them back into one skill. It would allow for greater freedom in developing new ideas and abilities that apply to a variety of musical tasks, rather than having to design abilities that make sense for a single instrumental skill.
For instance, you can develop a Warn Horn system that relies on Musical Theory/Lore skill to perform but requires you perform the ability with a Wind instrument. No need for a Winds skill.
I'm doubly concerned about the Mech Lore split and how it will affect musical skills. There will be even less reason or incentive to train these instrumental skills that lead to no functional or mechanical benefit when you have seven new skills with clearly defined skill progressions and multiple mechanical benefits.
I think it would be a lifeline for the Bard guild and make sense for the game overall.
GENT
ALEPH-ONE
re: Music Theory split
02/13/2010 03:38 PM CST
From a playability and realism perspective, I would be fine with condensing the three instrument skills into Instruments.
However, the perfectionist in me thinks that there has got to be a better way to structure our skillsets in general. I'm thinking of both weapons and instruments here.
In an ideal world, I'd like to see a lot MORE skills available in general, with few OOC reasons to try to train every single skill (coughTDPS).
I would envision it like this:
Everyone gets a number of general skills for free, and also a number of "music theory" type skills. They then have to pay some cost (be it joining a certain guild or paying TDPs) to buy very specific skills, which would then open these skills up for gaining ranks. For example, every Bard would start with Music Theory and get to choose three very specific instruments for free -- for me, I'd take Lute, Bones, and Shakuhachi. When playing my lute, I'd gain in Lute skill and Music Theory. If I pick up a sitar, I'd be able to play it at a skill level roughly based on how similar a sitar is to a lute, with a bonus from Music Theory of course.
If I really want to learn the zither (very different from the lute), I'd have to pay some small amount of TDPs to pick up Zither (and get a certain amount of ranks transferred for free, also learning a little bit of Lute whenever I play the zither). Note that in my model one doesn't gain TDPs from skills, so there is nothing wrong with learning multiple skills at once like this.
Note also that it doesn't really matter to me if instrument skills become useful enough for non-Bards. All I care about is that they get enough development that they will be useful to Bards, and available for non-Bards as a valid RP choice (with a few perks). I don't really see the point in trying to make every skill uber useful to everyone.
Anyway, I'd love to see something similar with weapons and weapon styles, as was mentioned in the original thread. Like Bastard Sword skill + Big Slicing Skill. This would open up lots of doors for guild-specialty styles, and I would imagine that the Barbarian guild at least would have a few not available to others. Also, Barbarians would get to choose a number of specific weapon skills for "free," while Moon Mages would get fewer (maybe one).
All that said, I completely understand your concerns, Gent, about such systems being possibly too ambitious and thus not likely to receive enough development. Realistically, we probably shouldn't aim for them. In my heart, I'd love to see us try.
-- Player of Niieth
However, the perfectionist in me thinks that there has got to be a better way to structure our skillsets in general. I'm thinking of both weapons and instruments here.
In an ideal world, I'd like to see a lot MORE skills available in general, with few OOC reasons to try to train every single skill (coughTDPS).
I would envision it like this:
Everyone gets a number of general skills for free, and also a number of "music theory" type skills. They then have to pay some cost (be it joining a certain guild or paying TDPs) to buy very specific skills, which would then open these skills up for gaining ranks. For example, every Bard would start with Music Theory and get to choose three very specific instruments for free -- for me, I'd take Lute, Bones, and Shakuhachi. When playing my lute, I'd gain in Lute skill and Music Theory. If I pick up a sitar, I'd be able to play it at a skill level roughly based on how similar a sitar is to a lute, with a bonus from Music Theory of course.
If I really want to learn the zither (very different from the lute), I'd have to pay some small amount of TDPs to pick up Zither (and get a certain amount of ranks transferred for free, also learning a little bit of Lute whenever I play the zither). Note that in my model one doesn't gain TDPs from skills, so there is nothing wrong with learning multiple skills at once like this.
Note also that it doesn't really matter to me if instrument skills become useful enough for non-Bards. All I care about is that they get enough development that they will be useful to Bards, and available for non-Bards as a valid RP choice (with a few perks). I don't really see the point in trying to make every skill uber useful to everyone.
Anyway, I'd love to see something similar with weapons and weapon styles, as was mentioned in the original thread. Like Bastard Sword skill + Big Slicing Skill. This would open up lots of doors for guild-specialty styles, and I would imagine that the Barbarian guild at least would have a few not available to others. Also, Barbarians would get to choose a number of specific weapon skills for "free," while Moon Mages would get fewer (maybe one).
All that said, I completely understand your concerns, Gent, about such systems being possibly too ambitious and thus not likely to receive enough development. Realistically, we probably shouldn't aim for them. In my heart, I'd love to see us try.
-- Player of Niieth
JMF90
re: Music Theory split
02/13/2010 03:47 PM CST
I just wish they'd left music in one skill until there was a compelling reason to split it. Kind of like how mech is being split now for the creation system rewrite.
JOHNSONS781
re: Music Theory split
02/13/2010 04:47 PM CST
>>My greatest concern is that since the Musical Lore split, there has been almost no development of these skills in terms of making them useful to non-Bards, desirable for non-Bards to train or unique from each other, besides the method of training. Outside of gaining TDPs and the spirit regen bonus, there are no uses for instrumental or musical skills for non-Bards. Even Bards have no use for these skills outside of the marginal benefit they provide to playing enchantes!
Clerics can "play hymn/psalm for (immortal)" at an altar with a non-vocals instrument to gain devotion, which admittedly isn't really a big deal.
Clerics can "play hymn/psalm for (immortal)" at an altar with a non-vocals instrument to gain devotion, which admittedly isn't really a big deal.
