Is "old" bead carving going to teach Theurgy, then? How does that scale, skill-wise?

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Here's shaping a bead for you Javak

> read book

-= Chapter 8, Page 1: Instructions for crafting a wood bead =-

A wood bead is a craftable item in the Engineering society under the Shaping crafting discipline. This is considered to be an extremely easy piece to make, though knowledge of the Simple Image Shaping technique will be beneficial to the crafter.

This item is listed as a "shaped wooden image" ingredient type and is created using a wood saw, drawknife, carving knife and a wood finishing kit. A crafter may also find it helpful to have chisels, a turntable and clamps or a vise on hand.

A list of ingredients is provided:

(1) refined wood lumber (1 piece)

> study my book

You scan the bead instructions with a glance and completely understand all facets of the design. (5/5)
You now feel ready to begin the crafting process.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R> put book in my back

You put your book in your hitman's backpack.
>
> get cod

You get a simple design codex from inside your hitman's backpack.
> read cod

-= Chapter 2 : Simple Immortal Designs =-

This chapter's designs require knowledge of no exotic techniques.
This chapter's designs contains no notably difficult features.

Page 1: welkin Page 21: dolphin
Page 2: cow Page 22: ram
Page 3: owl Page 23: cat
Page 4: nightingale Page 24: wren
Page 5: wolverine Page 25: lion
Page 6: magpie Page 26: scorpion
Page 7: kingsnake Page 27: raccoon
Page 8: albatross Page 28: adder
Page 9: donkey Page 29: shrew
Page 10: dove Page 30: shrike
Page 11: phoenix Page 31: centaur
Page 12: mongoose Page 32: weasel
Page 13: jackal Page 33: viper
Page 14: raven Page 34: shark
Page 15: unicorn Page 35: coyote
Page 16: wolf Page 36: spider
Page 17: panther Page 37: heron
Page 18: boar Page 38: goshawk
Page 19: ox Page 39: vulture
Page 20: cobra

> turn cod to page 39
You turn your codex to page 39, instructions for the vulture design.
> study cod
You study the codex until you fully comprehend the design.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
R> put cod in my back

You put your codex in your hitman's backpack.


> get my saw
>
You get a steel serrated wood saw from inside your hitman's backpack.
> carve stack with my saw
It would be better to find a creature to carve or specify which tool you want to carve with.
>
[Script aborted! (Run time: 43 seconds): carve.cmd]
> put saw in my back

You put your saw in your hitman's backpack.

> get my drawknife

You get a haralun drawknife detailed with a battle scene from inside your hitman's backpack.
> scrape my lumber with drawknife

You carefully separate out the excess material and place it at your feet.
You set the lumber before you and select the best piece to begin with. Using two hands you pull your drawknife along the wood to strip away the bark and rough out its shape. The wood's balance and flex appear completely intact from the work.

Shaping with a wood shaper is needed to further smooth the material's surface.
Roundtime: 19 sec.
R> put my drawknife in my backpack

You put your drawknife in your hitman's backpack.
> get my shaper

You get a steel jagged wood shaper from inside your hitman's backpack.
> shape my bead with my shaper

You flip an unfinished maple bead over and begin to shape it with your shaper. The vigorous rubbing shapes the wood surface and produces absolutely no mistakes.

Shaping with a wood shaper is needed to further smooth the material's surface.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
R> shape my bead with my shaper

You flip an unfinished maple bead over and begin to shape it with your shaper. Your experience shows in the smooth, expertly-shaped surface of the wood.

Shaping with a wood shaper is needed to further smooth the material's surface.
Roundtime: 9 sec.
R> shape my bead with my shaper

>
You flip an unfinished maple bead over and begin to shape it with your shaper. The vigorous rubbing shapes the wood surface and produces absolutely no mistakes.

The wood is ready to have more fine detail carved with a carving knife.
Roundtime: 9 sec.
R> put my shaper in my backpack

You put your shaper in your hitman's backpack.
> get my carving.knife

You get a long narrow carving knife of Elven silver with a zombie leather-wrapped hilt from inside your chest harness.
> carve my bead with my knife

Back and forth you carve along an unfinished maple bead with your knife. Peering at the clean cuts inspires confidence for continued shaping.

Shaping with a wood shaper is needed to further smooth the material's surface.
Roundtime: 16 sec.
R> put my knife in my backpack

You put your knife in your hitman's backpack.
> get my shaper

You get a steel jagged wood shaper from inside your hitman's backpack.
> shape my bead with my shaper

With short strokes you shape an unfinished maple bead with your shaper. Your experience shows in the smooth, expertly-shaped surface of the wood.

The wood is ready to have more fine detail carved with a carving knife.
Roundtime: 7 sec.
R> put my shaper in my backpack

You put your shaper in your hitman's backpack.
> get my carving knife

You get a long narrow carving knife of Elven silver with a zombie leather-wrapped hilt from inside your hitman's backpack.
> carve my bead with my knife

Back and forth you carve along an unfinished maple bead with your knife. The wood's balance and flex appear completely intact from the work.

Shaping with a wood shaper is needed to further smooth the material's surface.
Roundtime: 17 sec.
R>
The world takes on a glimmering red monotone briefly, but soon returns to normal.
R> put my knife in my backpack

You put your knife in your hitman's backpack.
> get my shaper

You get a steel jagged wood shaper from inside your hitman's backpack.
> shape my bead with my shaper

You flip an unfinished maple bead over and begin to shape it with your shaper. The vigorous rubbing shapes the wood surface and produces absolutely no mistakes.

A bulbous knot will make continued shaping difficult unless rubbed out with a rasp.
Roundtime: 11 sec.
R> put my shaper in my backpack

You put your shaper in your hitman's backpack.
> get my rasp

You get a tapered steel rasp from inside your hitman's backpack.
> scrape my bead with my rasp

You delicately shape fine detail into the bead with your rasp. A slightly uneven surface is all that remains of the persistent knot.

Shaping with a wood shaper is needed to further smooth the material's surface.
Roundtime: 12 sec.
R>
Your flower spider scans the area, eyes gleaming.
R> put my rasp in my backpack

You put your rasp in your hitman's backpack.
> get my shaper

You get a steel jagged wood shaper from inside your hitman's backpack.
> shape my bead with my shaper

You flip an unfinished maple bead over and begin to shape it with your shaper. Each motion adds more graceful style and exceptional accuracy.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
Applying the final touches, you complete working on a maple vulture bead.
R> put my shaper in my backpack

You put your shaper in your hitman's backpack.
> analyze bead
You analyze every minute detail of the vulture bead and smile knowingly to yourself.
This appears to be a type of shaped wooden image that is of outstanding quality.
The bead is an extremely easy piece to make.
It was made by someone with abilities close to your own skill.
About 1 pieces of lumber were used in this item's construction.
You find it impossible to identify who crafted this item.
Roundtime: 10 sec.

> glance

You glance down to see a maple vulture bead in your right hand and nothing in your left hand.
>
> commune truf

>
[You are about to offer a maple vulture bead to the gods. If you are sure, repeat the command within 30 seconds.]
R> commune truf

You pour your faith and devotion into a plea to Truffenyi, a maple vulture bead held aloft in your hands.
A faint voice murmurs in your head, ~ "You are heard, mortal." ~

Shaped beads/totems/etc work as favor offerings, they just don't function for Clerical ritual usage like the previous Bead Carving beads do.

You know...ye olde beads made without the need for studying a shaping book/codex.

Should be noted/kept that the old prayer bead (devotion beads) do not require any primers/study if your mech was high enough.

---

>prep bless
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a psalm to invoke the Bless spell.
>
>forage limb
Hawkishly you spot your target and begin to forage.
You manage to find a teak limb.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>
The rainbow orb of light hovering near you pulses, as if alive.
>
>get chalice from my duffel bag
You get a carved bone chalice inset with copper bands from inside your duffel bag.
>
>sprinkle chalice on my limb
You sprinkle a teak limb with some holy water.
>
>put chalice in my duffel bag
You put your chalice in your duffel bag.
>
>cast my limb
>
You gesture at a teak limb.
A deep indigo glow surrounds a teak limb for a few moments, and is slowly absorbed.
>
>get carving knife
You get a carving knife encrusted with dried orange gunk from inside your duffel bag.
>
>carve my limb with my knife
You begin to hack away at the teak limb with your knife.
Roundtime: 7 sec.
>
>carve my limb with my knife
Dartellum runs north.
>
With fluid strokes, you strike your teak limb with your knife, carving away with fanciful abandon.
Roundtime: 9 sec.

>
>carve my limb with my knife
You continue to whittle away at the teak limb with your knife, rounding out a large knob toward the end.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
>
>carve my limb with my knife
You grow more careful in your movements, narrowing the connection between the limb and the block you've carved out at the end with your knife.
Roundtime: 11 sec.
>

>carve my limb with my knife
With a final deep cut the rest of the teak limb falls away, leaving you holding a rough teak block.
Roundtime: 15 sec.
>
>put carving knife in my duffel bag
You put your knife in your duffel bag.
>
>get shaper
You get a curved wood shaper with an osage grip from inside your duffel bag.
>
>shape block to heron
You masterfully begin shaping your teak block.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>
>shape block to heron
Trying your best, you masterfully run the shaper over the surface of the teak block, trying to coax out the shape of a heron.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
>
>shape block to heron
With heavy strokes, you masterfully scrape and scratch the teak block in an attempt to further refine the image of a heron in its surface.
Roundtime: 7 sec.
>
>shape block to heron
Ethun just arrived.
>
You smile with satisfaction as you continue to masterfully buff and shape the surface of a rough teak block.
Roundtime: 9 sec.
>
>shape block to heron
You notice the teak block taking shape in the form of a heron as you continue to carve at its surface masterfully with a curved wood shaper with an osage grip.
Roundtime: 12 sec.
>
>shape block to heron
Pursing your lips in concentration, you continue to shape the surface of your teak block masterfully.
Roundtime: 15 sec.
>
>shape block to heron
You focus adeptly on bringing out the details in the primal, animalistic form of a heron in the teak block.
Roundtime: 18 sec.
>
>shape block to heron
Your spirit soars with pride as you place the last finishing touch on your rendition of a heron, completing a teak heron bead.
Roundtime: 21 sec.
>
>put shaper in my duffel bag
You put your shaper in your duffel bag.
>
>get prayer chain from my duffel bag
You get a pale silver prayer bead chain from inside your duffel bag.
>
>put heron bead on prayer chain
You carefully thread a teak heron bead onto your prayer bead chain.

>Wasn't a large part of the idea behind the Crafting codex and shaped (and future other crafts) images with templates of scaling difficulty based on expanding and obsoleting the old mech lore bead carving system? Why would more development time be spend on band aids now? Seems like a waste of a great core crafting system just so people can more easily script Theurgy


I'm all for shaping to make beads and hopefully the other shaped images since Mech is going away and wouldn't make sense to make beads the old way with nothing to gain through the practice. However, it goes beyond simply making Theurgy easily scriptable for not wanting to change from old to shaping. Besides the whole unable to utilize them for devotion which is a big part there's also the randomness of finding materials. You can either go cut down trees for good wood or forage for random pieces if you don't want to use the lumber from crafting halls. Most people aren't going to want to do the first either because its time consuming to find the right material or taking the time to find the material they want they're still leery to do so since its going to be destroyed in the process of using it. Foraging for random types of wood has the drawback of the quality of the material automatically being reduced which then directly effects the quality of the bead both from the material being foraged and depending on the type of material found. Currently devotion gained from a bead when used is dependent upon the quality for its material type and its overall quality. Though, both are moot points as it stands right now since they can't be used in that fashion so quality doesn't currently matter.

On the other hand, reasons to keep doing it the old fashioned way are pretty cut and dry. First is they do what they're suppose to do and work for devotion through meditating. Secondly, material is much easier to manage. With blocks bought from the various npcs you always get the same quality and difficulty of material at a set cost which you can put into wallets which reduces item count by up to 30 per wallet. With all the other reagents clerics have to carry around simpler is definitely better.

Should they make the old system teach theurgy when mech goes away? Maybe, maybe not. I though would prefer the shaping system encompass the popular way its done now since even without it teaching anything its still wins out because of devotion and breaks even for using the end product with Truffenyi commune.

>
1) Make blocks a basic 3.0 product under engineering, and sold at engineering shops as well.
2) Make these blocks stackable with wallets.
3) Make it so anyone can carve them into devotional beads that can fit on a prayer chain and/or favor widgets, but a Cleric needs to do the theurgy-related-part to make them holy.
4) If necessary, let Clerics buy pre-carved blocks for theurgy/devotion purposes from the NPCs who currently sell 2.0 blocks.
5) Disconnect block material from theurgy experience/devotion gained, since no one is going to use rare/quest materials for a consumable product with no long-term effect anyway.


All this sounds reasonable to me, though I will say it'd be nice as Totilio pointed out if we could use this as a secondary means of training Theurgy (unless whatever modifications Grejuva may make to the skill may work things out to make this seem less necessary.) That being said, would it be possible to add a way to get at least a modest amount of Theurgy for Clerics from creating these beads via Engineering in a manner not unlike how Traders can get Trading from completing Work Orders?

Honestly, I see no reason for this to be turned into a crafting system. Just because the player is crafting an item, does not necessarily mean it needs to tie into a crafting system. Same thing with talismans for warrior Mages. Honestly, entirely too much thought is being put into this it would be a wonderful game mechanic method for clerics to train theurgy without having to deal with the constant cooldowns of the current devotion system.

If someone wants to train engineering, and they are a cleric, then more power to them.

Unless there is some game balance requirement, like Warrior Mage summoned weapons, then why change something for the worse?

---

"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh

My tiny opinion on this, as a <20 circle cleric:

I can still wake theurgy up by doing enough rituals back to back, but its already getting to where I have to start tossing in communes and juggling their cooldowns to get it moving with any real progress. I can't even imagine what a nightmare it is for later circles where the latter is the only way of moving it at all. Is it even possible to reach mind locked at those levels? So I agree with the ones saying this would be a great opportunity to give us a way to train our guild skill that puts it in line with, well, just about every other skill out there, no? For me, the idea of manipulating communes and devotion to train it just feels weird from an IC standpoint. Asking the immortals for help my character doesnt need just to wake up a skill doesn't seem right. But with things as they are right now, it's the only way.

So really. Why not both? Why not let the block-style carving of beads train and check theurgy instead of mech lore? What problems would arise from keeping both block and lumber beads around and letting people decide which one they want to make?

-Lumber-style Engineered beads could be used for favors and everyone can get good at making them. Later they could be used as decorative bits for other things like jewelry, instruments and bags. Clerics could opt to use them as an IC reason to train shaping if bows and crossbows aren't their thing, but they wouldn't be suitable for devotion/theurgy because there's no blessing involved. This would require no change from the current system.

-Block-style blessed beads could be a cleric specialty, keeping their function as favorables for anyone, and meditate-ables by the clerics who carved them. Instead of mech, they'd rep Theurgy during the carving process. The only required change would be to switch the skill check to Theurgy or Theurgy/Scholarship if a primer is used. An optional change would be to update the blocks so that new woods work properly and have associated difficulties. At present, a lot of them end up as rough wooden blocks and are therefore the easiest, despite whatever they started out as.

For the Devs looking into this: Something that hasn't been pointed out yet is that currently a cleric can only use block-style blessed beads that they carved themselves for devotion and meditation. Using a bead that anyone else carved will result in a destoyed bead and no devotion if you meditate on it. If the immortals want to reward personal devotion in the same way they do now, then this is something that would have to be addressed if the blessed beads are being removed entirely.

And if that is the eventual plan, then might I suggest adding a new low circle commune instead. One wherein cleric acquires a finished lumber-based bead, either through their own enterprise or someone else's. They sprinkle the finished bead with holy water, and commune <immortal> based on the bead's shape. The commune would wake theurgy up, at least a little bit and the bead would become suitable meditation device that can be worn on the prayer chains. While this seems like a dev nightmare to me, it might be a suitable compromise?

I can appreciate your opinion, however I'd rather have a customizable familiar system than talisman. And changing nouns from bead to something else isn't that tricky compared to a system expansion down the road.

Requiring players to learn skills to use a guild specific system is a bad idea. The odds of the bead carving system being touched again past the mech lore removal are slim.

---

"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh

I like the talisman idea though, would love to have fancier ones even if we have to wait for alterers to show up to alter out actual familiars

>>1) The people who want to integrate all crafting (but some haven't considered the fact that it probably means more development time right now)
2) The people who want to change mech to theurgy in the hopes that bead carving will teach theurgy (but some haven't considered the fact that there was no promise that bead carving would teach anything)
3) The people who don't want to train engineering (but some seem to unaware that the skill required to carve a bead is so trivial that this is a non issue - less than 50 ranks to mastercraft anything).

1) Exactly

2) Yeah it was already mentioned it would teach theurgy

3) For now, something bigger and better down the road might require a lot more ranks. It sets a bad precedent.

---

"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh

>>I can appreciate your opinion, however I'd rather have a customizable familiar system than talisman

Why not both?

>>And changing nouns from bead to something else isn't that tricky

You'd think that, but then the decades-old dark code of Simu rises from the grave. That's why it's generally beneficial to get niche systems running on a more general system. First because those more general systems have been touched (or created!) by the current flock of GMs in the last few years, and second because future GMs are going to be explicitly trained/versed in those general systems, because they have a much wider reach than all these esoteric niche systems.

>>Requiring players to learn skills to use a guild specific system is a bad idea.

I'm of the mindset that players shouldn't have to craft their own talismans, beads, etc, which would resolve any issue of having to learn a specific craft to participate in a system. They could instead purchase basic versions of the widgets from shops and/or players, with the expansion of buying more robust/fancy versions from players, as well.

Plus, to be fair, mech lore wasn't a guild specific skill, either.

Also, my necro requires more and more combat skill to train my guild specific skill, let alone use it to the best of my abilities. It's not like necros can train thanatology in ship rats forever. Plus, warrior mages, weapon summoning, and weaponsmithing techniques (which require forging ranks).

>>[I]t was already mentioned it would teach theurgy

This could easily change, or your expectations of how well it could teach might be notably off (is it going to teach like smelting ore teaches forging?).

>>For now, something bigger and better down the road might require a lot more ranks. It sets a bad precedent.

I'm not sure how "you need to train more than your specific guild only skill to do everything awesome" is a bad precedent, let alone one that doesn't already exist. Pretty much every guild with abilities has to train a range of magic skills to use what are arguably guild specific abilities.

>>The people who want to integrate all crafting (but some haven't considered the fact that it probably means more development time right now)

I know you said some, but I'm personally well aware of this and strongly favor taking more time to do something right and make sure the infrastructure for expansion/improvement is there for the future. In my own coding/design/development/etc experience, it's a lot more effective to take extra time at the start to save notably more time (and headaches) in the future.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>Lets take Warrior Mages and Talismans as an example.

The reality is that taksmans were last updated in 2006, which was mostly a maintenance update. Prior to that there was Rottcloar's colour expansion that only ever touched half the familiars.

I'm going to take the chance of a possible 500 engineering rank system over another ten years of neglect. I have faith that the GMs are capable of creating reasonable rank requirements in the future. I have zero faith they will ever resume development for the legacy guild systems.

---

"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.

They're proud of them."
-Raesh

One of the main points of DR is that to be good at doing something you need to have the skill for it. Putting carving systems out of the equivalent carving skill seems antithetical to DR's underlying paradigm.

There are guild requirements in all skillsets. Asking that you train a skill outside your primary in order to do something related to the guild seems just fine to me.

---

Don't forget to vote:

http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

>>1) I think a talisman, crafting-wise, is separate from using the familiar system itself. Making a talisman shouldn't be hard. There can be "advanced"/"fancy" versions that require more reqs, but they offer nothing but being more advanced/fancy.
>>2) I don't think Warrior Mages should have to craft their own talismans. If you don't want to make your ultramarine orichalcum talisman wrapped in layers of imperial weave, you can buy it off an Empath who is happy to craft it.
>>3) I think a basic bare-bones talisman should be sold by an NPC. It will look boring but function no different than anything crafted by players.
>>4) I think the "now use mojo to make it summon a dragon" should be summoning based.

I can agree with this. Options are good, and the relevant skills are there.

The carving requirement can go away during the initial bonding process, but the mundane item itself can be made through the crafting system, or shop purchased/quest obtained. It would require a familiar rewrite to remove the carving steps, or that step could be altered into the crafting system with different methods depending on the material (I.E. metal talismans can be forged, wood/bone/stone shaped, leather/cloth sewn, gems cut, etc). No need for special techniques, other than the universal.

I could even see an enchanting step in the process, as an option, to change the appearance of your familiar.

This kind of broad change opening options makes more sense to me.

So long as there are options, then everything is fine.

---

"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh