Below are some recent apps just to show my point. 99 physical mammoth bone should out perform 90 mammoth hide... (and I am not caring about elemental resistances here, those clearly the hide should do better.. 60 vs 90) And I understand that leather is intended to have more absorption... but it not only has better absorption, it also has better protection. For rare leather the mammoth hide looks like its stats are in the right place. For mammoth bone? not even close.

You feel certain that a coarse mammoth-hide robe sealed with protective wax appears to impose high (9/15) maneuvering hindrance and light (3/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
great (9/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
great (9/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
very great (10/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.


You feel certain that a ribbed mammoth-bone balaclava appears to impose insignificant (1/15) maneuvering hindrance and insignificant (1/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
very high (8/15) protection and good (7/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and moderate (6/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
good (5/15) protection and somewhat fair (4/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
good (5/15) protection and somewhat fair (4/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
good (5/15) protection and somewhat fair (4/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.

I've never seen a difference in stealth hindrance for different types of light armor. I've always thought that was kind of a shame.

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Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com

Hindrance shouldn't be a factor. That should be determined more by the template or style of armor than the material itself.. or at least that is what would make sense. and even if that is the 'good' quality of bone armor.. that isn't what it is sold as.. nor does it make sense. Bone armor should hinder more than leather, or cloth for that matter...

>I've never seen a difference in stealth hindrance for different types of light armor. I've always thought that was kind of a shame.

I think it's more about the range of hindrance than the type of armor. Some leathers can absolutely be more hindering than whatever else. I've been playing the hindrance game back and forth since I came back. I've managed...

But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently somewhat (6/14) hindered and your stealth is insignificantly (3/14) hindered.

That's wearing something of each armor type, including an armworn shield. As a tert, that's the lowest reasonable combination I've found. And with significant ranks in all armors, I doubt I'll see it drop again.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>>You feel certain that a segmented mammoth-bone hauberk appears to impose moderate (7/15) maneuvering hindrance and fair (5/15) stealth hindrance, offering:

What was the weight of this hauberk?

Something seems off to me about that. That's some really low hinderance that I've only seen on the lightest of cloth hauberks. Cloth can't even hit that low of hinderance at 150 stones lighter. Looking at the appraisal and hinderance (without seeing the weight) I would of guessed that mammoth bone was in the 2.5 - 3.5 density range.

>>Which is why I say the template is off... the hindrance is too low for the weight... and frankly the stats are too low for the weight. Mammoth bone is the best of the best bone for bone armor.. and is the heaviest version of light armor.. it should compensate for that by having the best stats. I am even okay with there being a trade off of more protection than absorption which is what I read was the original goal.. but it doesn't currently even achieve that.

In my opinion it does have the best stats, because I value hindrance more than any other stat. I'd be really upset if after scraping together 58 mammoth-bones for my really low hindrance hauberk it suddenly changed to being more protective and more hindrance.

The moonsilver armor/shields are all ridiculously low weight though. Most of the shields aren't even at a forgeable weight. I have a set of the cloth armor, and the hauberk weighs 75 stone. That'd be around 1.72 density, and I know of no cloth that light, although there are some blanks on E-pedia's materials page. A comparison to quest armor is Kanton's wizard robes at 96 stones.

The moonsilver leather armor come in at an equivalent of 4 density though. The same as quested nightmare leathers.

Kaeta Airtag

"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

>>I'd be really upset if after scraping together 58 mammoth-bones for my really low hindrance hauberk it suddenly changed to being more protective and more hindrance.

Historically they don't change existing items unless they are completely broken, so any changes would only impact new items.

I also would rather engineering have its templates working correctly so that they have a niche beyond oddly low hindrance -- which I question if it is intended.

Stuff sold at Stolen from the Moons: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Stolen_from_the_Moons_(2)

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Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com

Comparing a typical bone item to a typical leather item, the bone items have more hindrance, less absorb and more protection. The problem is that half a point of density reduces the stats enough to just barely roll down to the next compare level. Density has always had a large effect on item stats. Not something I particularly liked when I rewrote the systems, but I am unable to fix without years of rewriting other things...

I will also point out that mammoth bone and leather are the heaviest materials for both categories.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

I would like to point out that the mammoth-bone hauberk has the same protection/hinderance as my 2.15 density zenganne (cloth) hauberk, except the weight which the mammoth-bone weighs 3x as much. I agree that density plays a big part, but not this much. Mammoth-bone is producing 2 density results at 5+ density and it doesn't make sense when compared with leather and cloth.

Could someone take a look at the bone armor templates for carving, and maybe bone armor in general? I'd really like to use strictly bone armor, but I can't justify it when cloth armors are all-around better.

Usually when this gets talked about the response is that there's not enough granularity to Light armor to really make bone armor a thing people would like that wasn't leather. Though maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing for bone to be a cosmetic leather clone?

Maybe enchanting will give it a niche.

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Re: Life mana Spell preps

You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.

>>I'm not asking for it to be better than anything else, just balanced. It just seems to be lacking in every aspect.

I keep hearing that Bone armor will be the best for Enchanting. If that's true or not, who knows.

>Bone is a more protective and less absorptive version of leather. The numbers are supposed to be even but the way that the ranges work out bone ends up looking less than desirable. This also has a lot to do with a lack of good materials and lack of enhancing.

So the stats are actually okay but it doesn't appear that way because of appraisal ranges?

You mentioned lack of enhancing. Is this something to do with crafting techniques? Are they not functioning at all or not functioning correctly?

The two main issues I have with bone armor right now are:

1. There is no common high-density 85 physical resist material available. There really needs to be something comparable to shalswar/steel/burlap.

2. Bone armor enhancements were never actually released. So you can't strengthen/lighten/reinforce the armor.



~Engineering Savant Ascot Ryuzzaki, Grayroot of Elanthia

really needs to be more stuff that bone can be harvested from. Some great critters are available, stuff like a bone mastiff bone golems and a load of other undead stuff and a few living things would make great sources but it would take a little time to QC the stuff and get it approved i am sure, plus a GM willing to do it.

>The problem that I really have with bone armor is that's it biggest draw is the protection values (at the cost of absorption). The way armor is contested in combat means that if you don't win the armor contest then you get little to no use out of the protection part of armor and it's mostly absorption that protects you.

Not disagreeing in any way but FWIW only, per Kodius:

>Damage armor skill check only applies to protection. Absorption is static.

>The incoming damage has its value reduced by the armor's protection modified by skill. The remainder is then reduced by a % based on absorption.

>Armor low-caps at 10% and high caps at 120%. So having low armor skill is disastrously bad for protection.

>Protection is only half the picture. For some armors absorption is the more important stat. This was done to prevent low-skill from completely sabotaging a player, and
to add importance to the armor skill.

>Armor as a skillset gets a negative wrap. But it really does matter. It is just difficult to present that as a meaningful way to folks.

>Hindrance affects defenses. Lower defenses could mean a little more incoming damage up to the cap.

So I would take this to mean that at lower skill levels you want armor with high absorption but at higher skill levels you want armor with high protection. So you are correct that the biggest draw is its protection values but only if you have the armor ranks to make it count. Even if you lose the contest the incoming damage is still reduced by armor protection value + skill. This is why guild abilities that +armor skill are so beneficial and debils that remove armor skill or protection are so detrimental.

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

It is interesting to me that bone armor might be the way for, say, Paladins to get more value out of light armor relative to other types.

It's still not really worth it as-is though.

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Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs