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Would it be appropriate?
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
TARUUL
NICHOLSONC
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/21/2005 05:09 PM CDT
I think it would be appropriate. Some rulers might take a less heavy-handed approach, but I doubt any ruler would let things slide for too long, if the opposition was very public.
-Fierolan's player
______________________________________
Have you hugged your embittered Mountain Elf today?
-Fierolan's player
______________________________________
Have you hugged your embittered Mountain Elf today?
TARUUL
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/21/2005 05:19 PM CDT
I agree with you Fierolan but just wished to open it for discussion since so many seem to think otherwise by their words and actions. Yet I suppose if the rulers truly did start meeting out justice so many would cry foul that all events might stall more then they have.
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
SYLVERWIND
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/21/2005 05:48 PM CDT
Yes, if it's within their character to do so. A nice long stay in the dungeon might also be appropriate.
I am incredibly tired of seeing people act like little twits in public without being willing to accept the consequences of their 'roleplay'. I put that in quotes because you can tell by how they act that they are using the OOC knowledge that GMs can't really do much to them to influence their behavior.
Throw them in a dungeon for two real-life weeks. Strip them of their equipment and deposit them onto Poke-yer-dead beach ala Rumet. They might cry and whine, sure, but it might get the point across.
Rev. Reene, player of a few
"Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie." - Mae West
I am incredibly tired of seeing people act like little twits in public without being willing to accept the consequences of their 'roleplay'. I put that in quotes because you can tell by how they act that they are using the OOC knowledge that GMs can't really do much to them to influence their behavior.
Throw them in a dungeon for two real-life weeks. Strip them of their equipment and deposit them onto Poke-yer-dead beach ala Rumet. They might cry and whine, sure, but it might get the point across.
Rev. Reene, player of a few
"Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie." - Mae West
DREAMWEAVER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/21/2005 07:34 PM CDT
>>I am incredibly tired of seeing people act like little twits in public without being willing to accept the consequences of their 'roleplay'. I put that in quotes because you can tell by how they act that they are using the OOC knowledge that GMs can't really do much to them to influence their behavior.
Ditto! Really tired of it.
~Dreamheart
Ditto! Really tired of it.
~Dreamheart
VALYNN
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/21/2005 08:29 PM CDT
It's the lack of tangible consequences that keeps many things from "functioning" in DR the way they do in real life. Some of the outright disrespect I have seen during my tenure in Northern Watch would have sent many to a military lock up for cooling off or straight to court martial. Ok, I'm not military, so that might be a stretch in punishment, but I think it makes my point. Anyone in a position of command suffers from a constant barage of criticism and disrespect. I bring up the military RP scenario because it seems that it is, at times, the most highly contested. I think you run up against the fact that some people come to DR to RP and others come to blow off steam "killing" critters. It's hard to reconcile those two viewpoints in the same instance of the game. Kind of like making oil and vinegar salad dressing. You can get them to mix a bit, but they don't stay that way, and one always ends up on top. I've seen consequences leveled against characters for their RP, and immediately the whining and accusations of abuse of "GM power" or discrimination based on IG/OOG frienships and alliances starts up. I would like to see more stringent consequences come to appropriate actions, but I'm skeptical it will happen.
Holy crap, that was a lot of hot air.
V
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition."
- Henry V, William Shakespeare
Holy crap, that was a lot of hot air.
V
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition."
- Henry V, William Shakespeare
SYLER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/21/2005 08:33 PM CDT
I believe you're comparing Royal Rulers with Tyrants, which wasn't always the case. Most of the time, they'd just make the people who questioned them disreputable, mock them and remove them from the public eye. Or, throw them in jail, sometimes. And, yeah, sometimes, kill them, but as I recall, normally only from a direct threat.
It's regretful that the most common type of person in this world is someone small, in a big chair.
It's regretful that the most common type of person in this world is someone small, in a big chair.
DRAKEWARLORD
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/21/2005 10:33 PM CDT
One of the problems was of course the every ruler always had someone out there that someone else was ready to claim was the 'rightful' ruler. In addition, the nobles always outnumbered the ruler and quite often had 'perogatives', inherited or otherwise. Then too there were the groups of people with varying degrees of power the Rulers had to deal with, like the merchant's guild, the money lenders, the Church, to name a few. Finally, there were all the treaties, alliances, obligations, traditions, precedences, and so on.
So, simply executing someone because they had bad breath and a wart on their nose was possible sometimes, while executing someone else because they were plotting your demise in your very one castle was not always possible.
History is so facinating.
However, it would be nice if the rulers could order public executions complete with the dancing bears for miscreants.
Mists and Magic, Ocean Breazes, Deep Rivers Under the Sea, Trails Between the Stars: Where nothing is as it seems.
So, simply executing someone because they had bad breath and a wart on their nose was possible sometimes, while executing someone else because they were plotting your demise in your very one castle was not always possible.
History is so facinating.
However, it would be nice if the rulers could order public executions complete with the dancing bears for miscreants.
Mists and Magic, Ocean Breazes, Deep Rivers Under the Sea, Trails Between the Stars: Where nothing is as it seems.
WAHKAH
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/21/2005 11:13 PM CDT
I think the key missing point for DR nobility is not necessarily executions. In a feudal system the head of state is the source from which all benefits flow. Either the ruler themselves, or someone before them, managed to forge an alliance of loyal vassals (who in turn usually had subinfeudated vassals of their own)sufficient to put down any would-be contenders (including upstart vassals). If you were not in the system, then you were a potential contender and treated accordingly.
Anyone capable of presenting a significant military or political threat would then need to be aligned with a faction or face the extinction of the lone wolf. Thus, the ruler was the boss of anyone who was of political or military significance (or the boss of their boss, or the boss of their boss of their boss ad infinitum). While it might be possible to make sniggering comments behind the ruler's back, anything much more than that would be likely to draw heat on the offender through the 'chain of command'. Why? Because your boss does not want the ruler to think he is harbouring notions of offing the ruler (which he likely does) and have the ruler bring the weight of the other vassals down on him.
In DR, of course, this is not the case. Players are a power unto themselves. Actions have little consequence other than possibly death, which is little more than an inconvienince to most.
If you want to get folks attentions, I'd suggest using the guilds to take the place of noble houses to do it. Mess with the Prince and the guildleader refuses to let you circle for a month, or to even talk to you for that matter. If possible, even have the guildleader set them to a penance of some sort (i.e. learn X ranks of a specified tertiary skill before the month of silence even begins to run). If members of a particular guild act up for a while, have the ruler close the guildhouse for a period of time, with a big notice on the door "This guildhouse closed for 1 year due to the insubordinate actions of x,y,z who are members of this guild."
Oselitan
Anyone capable of presenting a significant military or political threat would then need to be aligned with a faction or face the extinction of the lone wolf. Thus, the ruler was the boss of anyone who was of political or military significance (or the boss of their boss, or the boss of their boss of their boss ad infinitum). While it might be possible to make sniggering comments behind the ruler's back, anything much more than that would be likely to draw heat on the offender through the 'chain of command'. Why? Because your boss does not want the ruler to think he is harbouring notions of offing the ruler (which he likely does) and have the ruler bring the weight of the other vassals down on him.
In DR, of course, this is not the case. Players are a power unto themselves. Actions have little consequence other than possibly death, which is little more than an inconvienince to most.
If you want to get folks attentions, I'd suggest using the guilds to take the place of noble houses to do it. Mess with the Prince and the guildleader refuses to let you circle for a month, or to even talk to you for that matter. If possible, even have the guildleader set them to a penance of some sort (i.e. learn X ranks of a specified tertiary skill before the month of silence even begins to run). If members of a particular guild act up for a while, have the ruler close the guildhouse for a period of time, with a big notice on the door "This guildhouse closed for 1 year due to the insubordinate actions of x,y,z who are members of this guild."
Oselitan
REALMWANDERER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/22/2005 12:21 AM CDT
Sounds like a good Inquisition is needed, and then a proper crowd pleasing exicution. ;>
Jim
"Conquistador your stallion stands in need of company and like some angel's haloed brow you reek of purity. I see your armour-plated breast has long since lost its sheen and in your death mask face there are no signs which can be seen..."
Jim
"Conquistador your stallion stands in need of company and like some angel's haloed brow you reek of purity. I see your armour-plated breast has long since lost its sheen and in your death mask face there are no signs which can be seen..."
XYILLIA
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/22/2005 11:59 AM CDT
The problem I see with nobility is that the "nobles" do not often acknowledge that some players have power of their own. In any monarchy, the monarch was always short money in their privy purse and would have always been borrowing money or goods to make up the lack.
Many merchants...ie traders...are treated badly by nobility and those wanting to be nobility. And they shouldn't be. Traders in DR have a firm grasp on the coin flow of each province and a firm grasp on the player-made market.
A little bit more respect for traders and makers of fine equipment would be nice.
A dark brown Zoluren marnet glances up at the stars and makes a purring sound of contentment.
Many merchants...ie traders...are treated badly by nobility and those wanting to be nobility. And they shouldn't be. Traders in DR have a firm grasp on the coin flow of each province and a firm grasp on the player-made market.
A little bit more respect for traders and makers of fine equipment would be nice.
A dark brown Zoluren marnet glances up at the stars and makes a purring sound of contentment.
TARUUL
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/22/2005 12:52 PM CDT
Now what can be constructivly done about this state of affairs?
A possible solution would be to give the GHs and GMs some mechanics by which if anyone in command ( a position they earned by being choosen by their own provinces ruler by the way) could report slanderous thoughts over the gweth or conversations in the clear they have overheard. Then it would be up to the GM and GH to record it and if it was judged harmful to perhaps send a provincial Guard to arrest or speak to the miscreant(s). This could include jail time or if blood has been drawn execution. Something should be done this is only one possible solution.On the other hand I also think that if the characters carrying out their RP do it well enough they should recieve some RPA for the effort. Underline well.
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
A possible solution would be to give the GHs and GMs some mechanics by which if anyone in command ( a position they earned by being choosen by their own provinces ruler by the way) could report slanderous thoughts over the gweth or conversations in the clear they have overheard. Then it would be up to the GM and GH to record it and if it was judged harmful to perhaps send a provincial Guard to arrest or speak to the miscreant(s). This could include jail time or if blood has been drawn execution. Something should be done this is only one possible solution.On the other hand I also think that if the characters carrying out their RP do it well enough they should recieve some RPA for the effort. Underline well.
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
FULTONJ1
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/22/2005 01:03 PM CDT
<<A possible solution would be to give the GHs and GMs some mechanics by which if anyone in command ( a position they earned by being choosen by their own provinces ruler by the way) could report slanderous thoughts over the gweth or conversations in the clear they have overheard. Then it would be up to the GM and GH to record it and if it was judged harmful to perhaps send a provincial Guard to arrest or speak to the miscreant(s). This could include jail time or if blood has been drawn execution. Something should be done this is only one possible solution.On the other hand I also think that if the characters carrying out their RP do it well enough they should recieve some RPA for the effort. Underline well.
Hmmm, perhaps it is good I have distanced myself. Because Lord knows my RP isn't sanctioned by a GH or a GM.
I thought we were supposed to encourage people to RP, not take a narrow path to accomplishing it.
Trebber
Your mech lore ranks could care less if the paper is blue or plain.
GM XXXXXX "Well, we can't please everyone."
You say, "True, but that is no reason not to try."
Hmmm, perhaps it is good I have distanced myself. Because Lord knows my RP isn't sanctioned by a GH or a GM.
I thought we were supposed to encourage people to RP, not take a narrow path to accomplishing it.
Trebber
Your mech lore ranks could care less if the paper is blue or plain.
GM XXXXXX "Well, we can't please everyone."
You say, "True, but that is no reason not to try."
TARUUL
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/22/2005 02:08 PM CDT
>>I thought we were supposed to encourage people to RP, not take a narrow path to accomplishing it.<<
Not at all a narrow path Trebber there wll always be options to take. One Could be an increase in those who disagree with how a provinces polocies are instituted who can take their grievance before the ruler of it in a court.
Argue the case well enough and perhaps said ruler will change polocies. Perhaps even reward you for bringing it before them. Otherwise the way I see things going now its more chaos and less actually being accomplished.
Still all in all we do need more suggestions to what is a growing problem .
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
Not at all a narrow path Trebber there wll always be options to take. One Could be an increase in those who disagree with how a provinces polocies are instituted who can take their grievance before the ruler of it in a court.
Argue the case well enough and perhaps said ruler will change polocies. Perhaps even reward you for bringing it before them. Otherwise the way I see things going now its more chaos and less actually being accomplished.
Still all in all we do need more suggestions to what is a growing problem .
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
TWINE
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/22/2005 02:40 PM CDT
I think it depends on how tastefully the "questioning of rule" is done.
There is potential for secret groups, missions, and espionage only enhancing RP.
~Halanny
There is potential for secret groups, missions, and espionage only enhancing RP.
~Halanny
TARUUL
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/22/2005 02:44 PM CDT
>>I think it depends on how tastefully the "questioning of rule" is done.<<
>>There is potential for secret groups, missions, and espionage only enhancing RP.<<
>>Halanny<<
Oh agreed also as long as those said groups also are willing to accept the consequences of ever getting caught by those rulers. :chuckles:
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
>>There is potential for secret groups, missions, and espionage only enhancing RP.<<
>>Halanny<<
Oh agreed also as long as those said groups also are willing to accept the consequences of ever getting caught by those rulers. :chuckles:
Sha'ruul Cottman desert warrior
TWINE
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/22/2005 02:50 PM CDT
>>Oh agreed also as long as those said groups also are willing to accept the consequences of ever getting caught by those rulers. :chuckles:
Of course. However, I feel there is a fine line between story lines that deliberately lead a group of people down a road to destruction with no recourse and openly stating "I am against the ruler"
~Halanny
Of course. However, I feel there is a fine line between story lines that deliberately lead a group of people down a road to destruction with no recourse and openly stating "I am against the ruler"
~Halanny
MOORES14
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 03:49 PM CDT
Barring Arbitrary executions(which many who question the government in DR would complain about).I suggest the GMs and GHs use exileas a form of punishment.I am sure mechaincs could be put into place that could prevemt you from entering a province for a certain amount of time.Exile was often used asa way to remove troublemakers that couldt be executed due to their power and influence.Maybe have way to be smuggled back into the province.If you are caught in a province while you are exiled then you lose your life and all your posseions in that province including vaults.These would give GM a way to get true trouble makers out of the line of an event and punish those that chose to continue the disruption.
I do think that there are two issues here.the first is how to deal with people who are RPing dissent.they need to be handled in a totally different manner than those who are just causing trouble for troubles sake.
RPing dissent should be possible in DR.exile and losing ones possesions are one way a leader could handle this and still maintian the RP if not even enhance the RP.I think anyone who RPs dissent than gets put into exile would understand that if they chose to return to that province before the exile was over would take the consequences of that choice.Put in some mechanics like town guards to look specifically for people who are exiles.then the mechanics can offer the people their public executions.After the execution your corpse would be dragged to the border of the nearest province and you could depart there.each violation of the exile would have harsher penalties.youre second execution would mean death and maybe losing a certain amount of ranks like departing without a rejuve.More violations equals more lost.Since you would never be forced to break you exile any of this that happens to you is strictly your doing and not a GMs fault.Base exile could start at a week and get longer with each act of treason.
I do think that there are two issues here.the first is how to deal with people who are RPing dissent.they need to be handled in a totally different manner than those who are just causing trouble for troubles sake.
RPing dissent should be possible in DR.exile and losing ones possesions are one way a leader could handle this and still maintian the RP if not even enhance the RP.I think anyone who RPs dissent than gets put into exile would understand that if they chose to return to that province before the exile was over would take the consequences of that choice.Put in some mechanics like town guards to look specifically for people who are exiles.then the mechanics can offer the people their public executions.After the execution your corpse would be dragged to the border of the nearest province and you could depart there.each violation of the exile would have harsher penalties.youre second execution would mean death and maybe losing a certain amount of ranks like departing without a rejuve.More violations equals more lost.Since you would never be forced to break you exile any of this that happens to you is strictly your doing and not a GMs fault.Base exile could start at a week and get longer with each act of treason.
JNSPONAUGLE
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 04:11 PM CDT
Well, in a way executions have happened. Back during a war (Gorbesh?), Zoluren forces trailed the people behind it into Therengia where they were promptly dismissed by the Therengian government. It was later put that the ruler of Zoluren, Seolarn, committed a crime and was to be punished. The prince of Therenborough then came down and publicly executed Seolarn and is now the reining prince of Zoluren.
There a couple of us who remember most of that instance, and were really good friends with Seolarn. I still have to hold Vorclaf accountable for committing such an attrocity and allowing the Therengians to have control of another country. In a way, I'll never get over Seolarn's untimely death and will laugh at the day I see Vorclaf's head on a spike.
The Moonarian
Kssarh says, "It's spelled M-O-R-O-N."
There a couple of us who remember most of that instance, and were really good friends with Seolarn. I still have to hold Vorclaf accountable for committing such an attrocity and allowing the Therengians to have control of another country. In a way, I'll never get over Seolarn's untimely death and will laugh at the day I see Vorclaf's head on a spike.
The Moonarian
Kssarh says, "It's spelled M-O-R-O-N."
WILLIAMSC22
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 04:41 PM CDT
Actually exile has been used on a few occations. Particularlly in the case of the Black Fang Army when they tried to overthrow Vorclaf(cept they got confused and invaded Stone clan instead). I think it was a 20 plat fine if caught in province. But it is something I wouldn't mind seeing in some cases. More in the case of folks who activly disrupt events. Just a thought.
~Ibec Alshaerd of Zoluren
Stamped upon the parchment is the Crest of House Alshaerd. A grandeous phoenix rising from the Greater Fist of Heavens encircled by golden laurels.
TELGER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 05:01 PM CDT
>>Well, in a way executions have happened. Back during a war (Gorbesh?), Zoluren forces trailed the people behind it into Therengia where they were promptly dismissed by the Therengian government. It was later put that the ruler of Zoluren, Seolarn, committed a crime and was to be punished. The prince of Therenborough then came down and publicly executed Seolarn and is now the reining prince of Zoluren.
>>There a couple of us who remember most of that instance, and were really good friends with Seolarn. I still have to hold Vorclaf accountable for committing such an attrocity and allowing the Therengians to have control of another country. In a way, I'll never get over Seolarn's untimely death and will laugh at the day I see Vorclaf's head on a spike.
Nope. That's a completely false as well as biased account of events. Here's what really happened:
During the Sorrow War, not the Gorbesh, an agent of Sirolarn, the Prince's brother, had poisoned the then-Prince, Belirendrick III, at a masquerade ball held in DiSilveron Manor. His son Vorclaf fled for his life (since Sirolarn would have to get rid of him next to assume the throne), and was taken in by Baron Jeladric, who had a history of taking in wards. Sirolarn then assumed the throne and his coronation took place during the Ice Festival.
Towards the end of the war Zoluren forces crossed the Therengian border and pursued Sorrow and his minions to the Zaulfung stones outside of Riverhaven. They fell back after realizing what a gross violation of international law they had committed as well as the destruction of Sorrow, and two Therengian forces of 9000 and 10,000 troops, led by Gar Rae Raenaden Larohald Trigomas, Lord Ereic Weyato, and Lord Valkrin, marched into Zoluren in response to the threat of invasion. With them they brought the true heir, Vorclaf, and helped Vorclaf in apprehending the traitor Sirolarn, who, overcome by guilt, had fled. Sirolarn was summarily tried for high treason, executed, and his head placed on a pike outside the East Gate as a warning to all who would think of betraying Zoluren.
~Thilan
>>There a couple of us who remember most of that instance, and were really good friends with Seolarn. I still have to hold Vorclaf accountable for committing such an attrocity and allowing the Therengians to have control of another country. In a way, I'll never get over Seolarn's untimely death and will laugh at the day I see Vorclaf's head on a spike.
Nope. That's a completely false as well as biased account of events. Here's what really happened:
During the Sorrow War, not the Gorbesh, an agent of Sirolarn, the Prince's brother, had poisoned the then-Prince, Belirendrick III, at a masquerade ball held in DiSilveron Manor. His son Vorclaf fled for his life (since Sirolarn would have to get rid of him next to assume the throne), and was taken in by Baron Jeladric, who had a history of taking in wards. Sirolarn then assumed the throne and his coronation took place during the Ice Festival.
Towards the end of the war Zoluren forces crossed the Therengian border and pursued Sorrow and his minions to the Zaulfung stones outside of Riverhaven. They fell back after realizing what a gross violation of international law they had committed as well as the destruction of Sorrow, and two Therengian forces of 9000 and 10,000 troops, led by Gar Rae Raenaden Larohald Trigomas, Lord Ereic Weyato, and Lord Valkrin, marched into Zoluren in response to the threat of invasion. With them they brought the true heir, Vorclaf, and helped Vorclaf in apprehending the traitor Sirolarn, who, overcome by guilt, had fled. Sirolarn was summarily tried for high treason, executed, and his head placed on a pike outside the East Gate as a warning to all who would think of betraying Zoluren.
~Thilan
DREAMWEAVER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 05:04 PM CDT
Wow, where do I start?
>>Back during a war (Gorbesh?),
It was the war with Sorrow.
>>Zoluren forces trailed the people behind it into Therengia where they were promptly dismissed by the Therengian government.
OK, we did go up there without diplomatic or military pre-approval. Therengia considered it an 'invasion' to have our Military commanders come in with units, and leave them there. It caused QUITE an incident after the fact. It also gave the Baron the proper foothold to restore the proper heir of the crown back to Zoluren.
>>It was later put that the ruler of Zoluren, Seolarn, committed a crime and was to be punished.
This self-crowned ruler's name was Sirolarn. (Seolarn is a weed with catalyst properties that is used in alchemy). Sirolarn was the one who killed the rightful Prince of Zoluren, Belenderik Sorvendig III, Prince Vorclaf Sorvendig's father. The Sorvendig family has ruled Zoluren for generations. If needed, I can produce that history, too.
>>The prince of Therenborough then came down and publicly executed Seolarn and is now the reining prince of Zoluren.
That would be the Rightful Prince of Zoluren, Prince Vorclaf, who had been protected by the Baron in Therengia from the murderer on the throne.
>>There a couple of us who remember most of that instance ...
I think that your memory needs some maintenance about that 'incident' then. Or perhaps you ARE thinking of someone named Seolarn ... in which case you could have been best buds with him and just have him and his fate confused with the murderer, Sirolarn. There are many people still in the realms who remember, were first hand witnesses, and who recorded the events.
>>I still have to hold Vorclaf accountable for committing such an attrocity and allowing the Therengians to have control of another country. In a way, I'll never get over Seolarn's untimely death and will laugh at the day I see Vorclaf's head on a spike.
And those of us who were there and saw Prince Belendirik III murdered before our eyes and an all out hunt for Prince Vorclaf will never get over the treachery of that power-crazed murderous Sirolarn, too.
Untimely? I think it was not timely enough.
~Dreamheart
>>Back during a war (Gorbesh?),
It was the war with Sorrow.
>>Zoluren forces trailed the people behind it into Therengia where they were promptly dismissed by the Therengian government.
OK, we did go up there without diplomatic or military pre-approval. Therengia considered it an 'invasion' to have our Military commanders come in with units, and leave them there. It caused QUITE an incident after the fact. It also gave the Baron the proper foothold to restore the proper heir of the crown back to Zoluren.
>>It was later put that the ruler of Zoluren, Seolarn, committed a crime and was to be punished.
This self-crowned ruler's name was Sirolarn. (Seolarn is a weed with catalyst properties that is used in alchemy). Sirolarn was the one who killed the rightful Prince of Zoluren, Belenderik Sorvendig III, Prince Vorclaf Sorvendig's father. The Sorvendig family has ruled Zoluren for generations. If needed, I can produce that history, too.
>>The prince of Therenborough then came down and publicly executed Seolarn and is now the reining prince of Zoluren.
That would be the Rightful Prince of Zoluren, Prince Vorclaf, who had been protected by the Baron in Therengia from the murderer on the throne.
>>There a couple of us who remember most of that instance ...
I think that your memory needs some maintenance about that 'incident' then. Or perhaps you ARE thinking of someone named Seolarn ... in which case you could have been best buds with him and just have him and his fate confused with the murderer, Sirolarn. There are many people still in the realms who remember, were first hand witnesses, and who recorded the events.
>>I still have to hold Vorclaf accountable for committing such an attrocity and allowing the Therengians to have control of another country. In a way, I'll never get over Seolarn's untimely death and will laugh at the day I see Vorclaf's head on a spike.
And those of us who were there and saw Prince Belendirik III murdered before our eyes and an all out hunt for Prince Vorclaf will never get over the treachery of that power-crazed murderous Sirolarn, too.
Untimely? I think it was not timely enough.
~Dreamheart
DREAMWEAVER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 06:15 PM CDT
:blush: I believe the correct spelling of the Late Prince should be: Belirendrick
~Dreamheart
~Dreamheart
PURHEART
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 06:24 PM CDT
And lets not forget to add in that Prince Sirolarn was executed without any sort of trail, nor allowed any defense in his honor. It made my main char hate vorclaf to this day, while she cant wait to see him die she isnt stupid enough to declare that in public as others have accused her of treason when she used to question what he did.
Ironic how you call Prince Sirolarn power-hungry when he was one of the most loved rulers around at that time. I'd say vorclaf at times has shown himself to be more power-hungry than Prince Sirolarn was. But if you say things against vorclaf you get threatened, & reported like a buncha children. "whhaahh, mommy, danny said you were mean, goo punish him for it. wwwwhhhhhaaaaaahhhhhhh"
One could say that "well, in medieval times the rulers put down those who did blahblahblah" & that "our current assorted ruling policies (democracy,liberism,etc) arent the way lands used to be run"
My response to that is.. books are written by the victors or ruling majority, can & have been changed as need be.
As far as exiling someone? heheh, yeah right, thats been tried & ignored. Who was that stupid-acting tog that openly flaunted the rulings of vorclaf to never step foot in Zoluren soil again & he loved walking around crossings & leth gathering 'sympathy' from his 'friends', most of who were event chasers & so-called 'well-liked people of the lands'.
His sentence was 'overturned' not long after that, due to the event chasers 'pleading' his case as a misguided person.
Funny how it can be applied to one person, but when others try it they are rediculed & ignored. And no, I'm not saying this applis to my main char but a couple sub chars I've played over the years along with a couple friends.
I'll shatter the damn soapbox one way or another.
Obviously you were supposed to jab a pen into your monitor.
~~Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
Ironic how you call Prince Sirolarn power-hungry when he was one of the most loved rulers around at that time. I'd say vorclaf at times has shown himself to be more power-hungry than Prince Sirolarn was. But if you say things against vorclaf you get threatened, & reported like a buncha children. "whhaahh, mommy, danny said you were mean, goo punish him for it. wwwwhhhhhaaaaaahhhhhhh"
One could say that "well, in medieval times the rulers put down those who did blahblahblah" & that "our current assorted ruling policies (democracy,liberism,etc) arent the way lands used to be run"
My response to that is.. books are written by the victors or ruling majority, can & have been changed as need be.
As far as exiling someone? heheh, yeah right, thats been tried & ignored. Who was that stupid-acting tog that openly flaunted the rulings of vorclaf to never step foot in Zoluren soil again & he loved walking around crossings & leth gathering 'sympathy' from his 'friends', most of who were event chasers & so-called 'well-liked people of the lands'.
His sentence was 'overturned' not long after that, due to the event chasers 'pleading' his case as a misguided person.
Funny how it can be applied to one person, but when others try it they are rediculed & ignored. And no, I'm not saying this applis to my main char but a couple sub chars I've played over the years along with a couple friends.
I'll shatter the damn soapbox one way or another.
Obviously you were supposed to jab a pen into your monitor.
~~Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
AMAGAIM
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 07:19 PM CDT
Okay, the Sirolarn thing made me want to do a little digging because what I was just reading didn't jibe with something I remembered. So I found it, and I found it quite interesting.
>Quote from The Undying Threat:
> Other examples of necromantic diseases and poisons... include the destruction of the village of Promado, in the Journelai Mountains, the region known as Sorrow's Reach; and the contemporary case involving the assassination of a Prince of Zoluren by his Necromancer nephew, Sirolarn, a situation full of complex political history.
>The rumors of the time when Belirendrick's reign first began indicated that the Prince had his brother-in-law, the nephew's father, killed, in order to ensure Belirendrick's ascension to the throne. Sirolarn's mother, Belirendrick's sister, died in childbirth -- or so they say, at least. In any event, it was essential for Belirendrick to have his brother-in-law killed before Sirolarn's death, else the infant would take the throne. He succeeded, becoming Prince, and when Sirolarn was born, the Prince had the boy taken in. It may well have been these events which led to Sirolarn becoming a Necromancer -- he feigned studies as a Cleric. Eventually he used his necromancy to create a magic poison, which he used to assassinate the Prince, and so for a time, he ruled over Zoluren. Sirolarn, to establish some additional context, is one of the few Necromancers to rule a nation in the modern era -- truly a dangerous fellow there.
Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge that the in-game resources are not always the most reliable fountains of information out there, but it's one of the few that are available to those that weren't actually there at the time.
Just as a parenthetical query, was Belirendrick the time-of-launch ruler of Zoluren? If this is an event before the game (or, more likely, the political aspect of the game) actually opened up for participation, then odds are it's probably accurate.
Assuming that the information is accurate, then Sirolarn had a legitimate cause against Belirendrick. His methods weren't those I would have approved of, however, and would have been cause enough to stand against him.
Then again, I wasn't there.
(sound of two cents dropping)
Amagaim; the player of,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
>Quote from The Undying Threat:
> Other examples of necromantic diseases and poisons... include the destruction of the village of Promado, in the Journelai Mountains, the region known as Sorrow's Reach; and the contemporary case involving the assassination of a Prince of Zoluren by his Necromancer nephew, Sirolarn, a situation full of complex political history.
>The rumors of the time when Belirendrick's reign first began indicated that the Prince had his brother-in-law, the nephew's father, killed, in order to ensure Belirendrick's ascension to the throne. Sirolarn's mother, Belirendrick's sister, died in childbirth -- or so they say, at least. In any event, it was essential for Belirendrick to have his brother-in-law killed before Sirolarn's death, else the infant would take the throne. He succeeded, becoming Prince, and when Sirolarn was born, the Prince had the boy taken in. It may well have been these events which led to Sirolarn becoming a Necromancer -- he feigned studies as a Cleric. Eventually he used his necromancy to create a magic poison, which he used to assassinate the Prince, and so for a time, he ruled over Zoluren. Sirolarn, to establish some additional context, is one of the few Necromancers to rule a nation in the modern era -- truly a dangerous fellow there.
Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge that the in-game resources are not always the most reliable fountains of information out there, but it's one of the few that are available to those that weren't actually there at the time.
Just as a parenthetical query, was Belirendrick the time-of-launch ruler of Zoluren? If this is an event before the game (or, more likely, the political aspect of the game) actually opened up for participation, then odds are it's probably accurate.
Assuming that the information is accurate, then Sirolarn had a legitimate cause against Belirendrick. His methods weren't those I would have approved of, however, and would have been cause enough to stand against him.
Then again, I wasn't there.
(sound of two cents dropping)
Amagaim; the player of,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
DREAMWEAVER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 08:05 PM CDT
I was there when Sirolarn took the Throne. I do not know how many people were fooled by his lies, but he was always slimey from my perspective. I saw him prevent all clerical help from assisting the Prince. I saw him fawning all over people of all manner of stature. I saw him prevent a proper investigation of the assassination.
I am stunned to find out that he somehow became one of the 'most loved' rulers.
I was not there for his execution, but I know there was proof of his treason and murder. I do not believe those who murder their way to the throne and then crown themselves Prince are really worthy of some public trial in the period of time in which we live.
Sirolarn did not stand forth and confront the Baron's charges and evidence; he did not welcome Vorclaf back and return the throne to him (which he should have, were he still Regent). Instead, he tried to flee, attacking at least one person.
~Dreamheart
I am stunned to find out that he somehow became one of the 'most loved' rulers.
I was not there for his execution, but I know there was proof of his treason and murder. I do not believe those who murder their way to the throne and then crown themselves Prince are really worthy of some public trial in the period of time in which we live.
Sirolarn did not stand forth and confront the Baron's charges and evidence; he did not welcome Vorclaf back and return the throne to him (which he should have, were he still Regent). Instead, he tried to flee, attacking at least one person.
~Dreamheart
DREAMWEAVER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 08:21 PM CDT
>> Just as a parenthetical query, was Belirendrick the time-of-launch ruler of Zoluren?
Yes. Prince Belirendrick Sorvendig III ruled from 307 to the day he was assassinated.
I am not familiar with the work you quote the rumors from, but even in it, they are labeled as rumors. Although I can see either a misquote from you, or an outright error in the quoted work, making it even more suspect as any sort of viable written source.
>>"...it was essential for Belirendrick to have his brother-in-law killed before Sirolarn's death, else the infant would take the throne."
Sirolarn was the infant in question in your scenario, and it should have said before his birth, no?
All that aside, Necromancy is illegal. At best. For whatever happened before, I was not there, and cannot say. But I can make sure that what has passed that I have witnessed, is set straight.
~Dreamheart
Yes. Prince Belirendrick Sorvendig III ruled from 307 to the day he was assassinated.
I am not familiar with the work you quote the rumors from, but even in it, they are labeled as rumors. Although I can see either a misquote from you, or an outright error in the quoted work, making it even more suspect as any sort of viable written source.
>>"...it was essential for Belirendrick to have his brother-in-law killed before Sirolarn's death, else the infant would take the throne."
Sirolarn was the infant in question in your scenario, and it should have said before his birth, no?
All that aside, Necromancy is illegal. At best. For whatever happened before, I was not there, and cannot say. But I can make sure that what has passed that I have witnessed, is set straight.
~Dreamheart
WILLIAMSC22
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 09:15 PM CDT
Not touching the Sirolarn matter but in terms of Therengia I considered their government's actions at the time astonishing. Having spent most of the war on the Haven front (with a past persona). I found it strange that the therenginian nobles sat by while Sorrow besieged a major trade center and slaughtered its people. The bulk of military defenders in terms of formations were Zolurinian. In a way it dumbfounded me that Therengia could muster 9,000-10,000 men to invade Zoluren but not to defend its own province against sorrow.
In terms of Zoluren's monarcy in the entire history of the province successtion generally comes about because someone was killed or overthrown. In the span of time since the Dragon Empire fell there has been five different royal houses... six if you count the one that ruled before the Dragon priests murdered them. Just a thought.
JNSPONAUGLE
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/26/2005 11:22 PM CDT
Ok, so I was bit off in my remembering what happened way back then. It's been only how many years since the Sorrow War? My body at the time was one of the few who enjoyed his conversations with Sirolarn. I know many Moon Mages who enjoyed Sirolarn's company and then when Vorclaf took the throne, he immediately placed a small ban on the Moon Mage guild with thoughts of closing it down. Of course I have small bit if a biased opinion as I am now and always have been a Moon Mage (thank you Rumet for the naptha induced ignition of Vorclaf after removing the head of Sirolarn).
Seeing as how I may not have the memory as well as you do, I would've rather been corrected without the snide comments.
The Moonarian
Kssarh says, "It's spelled M-O-R-O-N."
Seeing as how I may not have the memory as well as you do, I would've rather been corrected without the snide comments.
The Moonarian
Kssarh says, "It's spelled M-O-R-O-N."
PURHEART
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/27/2005 03:09 PM CDT
Amagaim,
Where did you find this 'undying threat' source? Is it a IG book? Or is from a website somewhere? You make it sound like a IG book but then its one I've never heard of & I love DRs libraries.
I had never heard of Prince Sirolarn doing the necro thing but then again it wouldnt be something talked about openly & in mixed company now would it. 8-)
Be like saying in rl someone enjoys dead bodies (cough cough)
I do think this bit ... <In any event, it was essential for Belirendrick to have his brother-in-law killed before Sirolarn's death, else the infant would take the throne.> is a mistake in that it should be 'Sirolarn's birth', not his death.
In a way that whole thing doesnt make sense or maybe I am too tired right now to think straight, but I am reading it as Belirendrick is the brother to Prince Sirolarn's mother, that would make Belirendrick next in line to the throne then if he died his son would follow him, which I am guessing is vorclaf. Now this would change if Belirendrick had any brothers but from that passage it seems to indicate all he had was a sister, or it would change if vorclaf isnt Belirendrick's son or if Belirendrick wasnt married at the time & so didnt produce any heirs. If vorclaf is a bastard child, IOW Belirendrick wasnt married to the mother of vorclaf then the ruling of Zoluren would pass onto Prince Sirolarn since his mother is daughter to the former ruler.
Since I dont have a rulers list or timeline of Zoluren in front of me let me see if I can do this here, lets call the previous ruler ohh, Belirendrick II ...
Belirendrick II
/ \
married? - Belirendrick III His Daughter - married
/ \
vorclaf Sirolarn
By rights, since I dont follow the lineage of Zolurens rulers, if Belirendrick III wasnt married or sired a bastard child then yes, Sirolarn would be the next to fall in line for the Princedom, killing Sirolarn's father would make sure that Belirendrick III would get the throne if Belirendrick II had declared that he didnt want Belirendrick III to be the ruler. Since the majority of this occured before most of our chars were born or came to these lands its hard to say & like I said I dont have a zolurens rulers lineage to hand.
I am interested in knowing where this item is from though, in all the times I was around Prince Sirolarn I found him to be a interesting person & loved by many.
Dreamheart, I'm not gonna get into an arguement here but you even state you werent there for his execution &proof was never presented to us, I was there for his execution & if vorclaf had proof then I would have accepted it. But the thing that made me hate vorclaf the most was the way he handled the whole event. Maybe I feel you dont pike family's head, all though RL's history I have yet to find that any ruler ever piked their families like that, friends, foreigners, but never family. They usually just locked them up or had them have 'acidental' deaths or they just disappeared but even if Sirolarn was a traitor he had just cause as Belirendrick killd his father & possibly his mother. Just revenge in my eyes.
And who ever proved it was Sirolarn that poisoned Belirendrick? I was there for that event too, all that was said was that a woman who had been talking to Sirolarn may have slipped the poison into Belirendrick's drink. All hat was said since someone claimed to see Sirolarn pass something to the woman, the guy wasnt married so maybe he was slipping her a pass to come see him (cough cough).
>>I do not believe those who murder their way to the throne and then crown themselves Prince are really worthy of some public trial in the period of time in which we live.<<
Funny, thats what Belirendrick III seems to have done himself isnt it, according to the source quoted by Amagain.
And hell, I'd flee too to safer grounds where I could defend myself if confonted by the mass of troops vorclaf appeared with & none of my troops behind me. Be a short-lived & stupid ruler to not do otherwise.
As far as rumors go, many a rumor has destroyed & derailed many things not only IG but in RL history, you put a speculation in someones mind, lets say the bill clinton & Monica Lewesincy (yeah, mangled that spelling) thing. It was a rumor at first that she was having a affair with billy-boy but then look at how it snowballed & destroyed him, making him a living joke nowadays. Only reason he served 2 terms as the US prez is the thing with her didnt come out till his 2nd term.
I'll smash this soapbox yet.
Obviously you were supposed to jab a pen into your monitor.
~~Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
Where did you find this 'undying threat' source? Is it a IG book? Or is from a website somewhere? You make it sound like a IG book but then its one I've never heard of & I love DRs libraries.
I had never heard of Prince Sirolarn doing the necro thing but then again it wouldnt be something talked about openly & in mixed company now would it. 8-)
Be like saying in rl someone enjoys dead bodies (cough cough)
I do think this bit ... <In any event, it was essential for Belirendrick to have his brother-in-law killed before Sirolarn's death, else the infant would take the throne.> is a mistake in that it should be 'Sirolarn's birth', not his death.
In a way that whole thing doesnt make sense or maybe I am too tired right now to think straight, but I am reading it as Belirendrick is the brother to Prince Sirolarn's mother, that would make Belirendrick next in line to the throne then if he died his son would follow him, which I am guessing is vorclaf. Now this would change if Belirendrick had any brothers but from that passage it seems to indicate all he had was a sister, or it would change if vorclaf isnt Belirendrick's son or if Belirendrick wasnt married at the time & so didnt produce any heirs. If vorclaf is a bastard child, IOW Belirendrick wasnt married to the mother of vorclaf then the ruling of Zoluren would pass onto Prince Sirolarn since his mother is daughter to the former ruler.
Since I dont have a rulers list or timeline of Zoluren in front of me let me see if I can do this here, lets call the previous ruler ohh, Belirendrick II ...
Belirendrick II
/ \
married? - Belirendrick III His Daughter - married
/ \
vorclaf Sirolarn
By rights, since I dont follow the lineage of Zolurens rulers, if Belirendrick III wasnt married or sired a bastard child then yes, Sirolarn would be the next to fall in line for the Princedom, killing Sirolarn's father would make sure that Belirendrick III would get the throne if Belirendrick II had declared that he didnt want Belirendrick III to be the ruler. Since the majority of this occured before most of our chars were born or came to these lands its hard to say & like I said I dont have a zolurens rulers lineage to hand.
I am interested in knowing where this item is from though, in all the times I was around Prince Sirolarn I found him to be a interesting person & loved by many.
Dreamheart, I'm not gonna get into an arguement here but you even state you werent there for his execution &proof was never presented to us, I was there for his execution & if vorclaf had proof then I would have accepted it. But the thing that made me hate vorclaf the most was the way he handled the whole event. Maybe I feel you dont pike family's head, all though RL's history I have yet to find that any ruler ever piked their families like that, friends, foreigners, but never family. They usually just locked them up or had them have 'acidental' deaths or they just disappeared but even if Sirolarn was a traitor he had just cause as Belirendrick killd his father & possibly his mother. Just revenge in my eyes.
And who ever proved it was Sirolarn that poisoned Belirendrick? I was there for that event too, all that was said was that a woman who had been talking to Sirolarn may have slipped the poison into Belirendrick's drink. All hat was said since someone claimed to see Sirolarn pass something to the woman, the guy wasnt married so maybe he was slipping her a pass to come see him (cough cough).
>>I do not believe those who murder their way to the throne and then crown themselves Prince are really worthy of some public trial in the period of time in which we live.<<
Funny, thats what Belirendrick III seems to have done himself isnt it, according to the source quoted by Amagain.
And hell, I'd flee too to safer grounds where I could defend myself if confonted by the mass of troops vorclaf appeared with & none of my troops behind me. Be a short-lived & stupid ruler to not do otherwise.
As far as rumors go, many a rumor has destroyed & derailed many things not only IG but in RL history, you put a speculation in someones mind, lets say the bill clinton & Monica Lewesincy (yeah, mangled that spelling) thing. It was a rumor at first that she was having a affair with billy-boy but then look at how it snowballed & destroyed him, making him a living joke nowadays. Only reason he served 2 terms as the US prez is the thing with her didnt come out till his 2nd term.
I'll smash this soapbox yet.
Obviously you were supposed to jab a pen into your monitor.
~~Marksman Ahmir Nam'al
AMAGAIM
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/27/2005 03:57 PM CDT
>>>Amagaim,
>>> Where did you find this 'undying threat' source? Is it a IG book? Or is from a website somewhere? You make it sound like a IG book but then its one I've never heard of & I love DRs libraries.
The book itself was, IIRC, in the Throne City library. You know, the one you have to pay to get into. And the one with the alternate version of Thee Mottl'd Tyxte. Book reference: HzbUT. My memory also keeps flashing a big sign over the Great Tower's basement as another possible location, but that one could be completely incorrect. (But in the interest of fairness, I'll include it anyways.)
I also love the libraries in-game. Part of the reason why I was so willing to cough up the plat to go in there.
The quoted piece was sourced at Claw & Fang's library mirror. Mostly because I wasn't able to get my lazy butt to TC at the time.
Amagaim; the player of,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
>>> Where did you find this 'undying threat' source? Is it a IG book? Or is from a website somewhere? You make it sound like a IG book but then its one I've never heard of & I love DRs libraries.
The book itself was, IIRC, in the Throne City library. You know, the one you have to pay to get into. And the one with the alternate version of Thee Mottl'd Tyxte. Book reference: HzbUT. My memory also keeps flashing a big sign over the Great Tower's basement as another possible location, but that one could be completely incorrect. (But in the interest of fairness, I'll include it anyways.)
I also love the libraries in-game. Part of the reason why I was so willing to cough up the plat to go in there.
The quoted piece was sourced at Claw & Fang's library mirror. Mostly because I wasn't able to get my lazy butt to TC at the time.
Amagaim; the player of,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
DREAMWEAVER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/27/2005 07:56 PM CDT
Here's the family tree:
Belirendrick Sorvendig II marries Marries Lady Mieth Chelochi in 276 AV (Chelochi is a powerful House of Zoluren at the time, indeed, this match likely cemented the ascention to the throne, uniting two powerful Houses in the face of that last Civil War.)
Their Children:
Geraedren Sorvendig, (f), born 279 AV
Belirendrick Sorvendig III, (m), born 283 AV
- - - -
Geraedren marries Tegistan of House Tirof in 296 (Note: I have no idea where House Tirof comes from)
Prince Belirendrick II dies in 300AV -- Geraedren is 21 years old, Belirendrick III is 17.
Prince Tegistan ascends the throne in 300AV, husband to the hereditary ruler, Princess Geraedren.
Prince Tegistan dies in 307 AV
Prince Belirendrick III ascends the throne in 307 AV
Princess Geraedren dies giving birth to Sirolarn in 308.
Prince Belirendrick III marries Lady Selan Weyato (a Therengian Noble House) in 334
Vorclaf Sorvendig is born in 335.
- - - -
Now, in addition to the admitted rumor-mongering in that book about Necromancy and the obvious mistake, I think that in the face of the events relating to Sirolarn to which we do have eye-witnesses, he was hardly a necromancer. I have seen Necromancers fight and escape when cornered, I have seen them die and return. Sirolarn looked and acted far more of the part of someone used by others (Necromancers or ???) who wanted to take advantage of his own lust for power, than a Necromancer. I would imagine that the Vexing Necromancer and the Lord Necromancer would laugh at the suggestion that Sirolarn was one of them.
Next, there is historical precedent for the Princess to take the throne in Zoluren, and yet, Princess Geraedren did not. She would have had to give the throne to her brother, I think.
Lastly, the poison used on Prince Belirendrik III by Sirolarn is not necromatic. It is an old Elven poisoning method that only harms those of that specific bloodline.
We learned a great deal more about it recently when the Lord Regent Mayor of Leth Deriel fell victim to that poison and fought for his life a very long time.
We will have to wait for someone who can fill us all in on the details of what proof the Baron brought with him of Sirolarn's treachery. I have enough faith in the Baron Jeladric to know that he would not have acted without it.
There are a few old accounts of this that I will have to identify at the Wren's Nest; they are contemporary news stories of what happened.
~Dreamheart
Belirendrick Sorvendig II marries Marries Lady Mieth Chelochi in 276 AV (Chelochi is a powerful House of Zoluren at the time, indeed, this match likely cemented the ascention to the throne, uniting two powerful Houses in the face of that last Civil War.)
Their Children:
Geraedren Sorvendig, (f), born 279 AV
Belirendrick Sorvendig III, (m), born 283 AV
- - - -
Geraedren marries Tegistan of House Tirof in 296 (Note: I have no idea where House Tirof comes from)
Prince Belirendrick II dies in 300AV -- Geraedren is 21 years old, Belirendrick III is 17.
Prince Tegistan ascends the throne in 300AV, husband to the hereditary ruler, Princess Geraedren.
Prince Tegistan dies in 307 AV
Prince Belirendrick III ascends the throne in 307 AV
Princess Geraedren dies giving birth to Sirolarn in 308.
Prince Belirendrick III marries Lady Selan Weyato (a Therengian Noble House) in 334
Vorclaf Sorvendig is born in 335.
- - - -
Now, in addition to the admitted rumor-mongering in that book about Necromancy and the obvious mistake, I think that in the face of the events relating to Sirolarn to which we do have eye-witnesses, he was hardly a necromancer. I have seen Necromancers fight and escape when cornered, I have seen them die and return. Sirolarn looked and acted far more of the part of someone used by others (Necromancers or ???) who wanted to take advantage of his own lust for power, than a Necromancer. I would imagine that the Vexing Necromancer and the Lord Necromancer would laugh at the suggestion that Sirolarn was one of them.
Next, there is historical precedent for the Princess to take the throne in Zoluren, and yet, Princess Geraedren did not. She would have had to give the throne to her brother, I think.
Lastly, the poison used on Prince Belirendrik III by Sirolarn is not necromatic. It is an old Elven poisoning method that only harms those of that specific bloodline.
We learned a great deal more about it recently when the Lord Regent Mayor of Leth Deriel fell victim to that poison and fought for his life a very long time.
We will have to wait for someone who can fill us all in on the details of what proof the Baron brought with him of Sirolarn's treachery. I have enough faith in the Baron Jeladric to know that he would not have acted without it.
There are a few old accounts of this that I will have to identify at the Wren's Nest; they are contemporary news stories of what happened.
~Dreamheart
ORRJ
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/27/2005 08:13 PM CDT
As someone who did ask a Necromancer back then when he was killed, about if they knew if he was a Necromancer or not because that was stated as one the of the reasons he was killed... The said Necromancer did laugh, and did say that the vexing necromancer or the lord necromancer might have spread the rumors for there own reasons.
~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Realms-
~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Realms-
WILLIAMSC22
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/28/2005 05:01 AM CDT
In any event its a long and confusing part of Zoluren's History hopefully some light will be shed one day. Have to say i'd still like to see more of Zoluren's nobles. Besides the royal house and former royal houses one of which was completely destroyed, there are only two houses I can name. Tirof which there isn't anything known about them and D'Silveron (also a dead house no heirs). In any event there could be some interesting events relating to that end house feuds etc.
~Ibec
Stamped upon the parchment is the Crest of House Alshaerd. A grandeous phoenix rising from the Greater Fist of Heavens encircled by golden laurels.
DREAMWEAVER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/28/2005 09:31 AM CDT
Ibec: You know that the House of Tirof was from Zoluren, then? I have found no reference to it anywhere I have looked.
~Dreamheart
~Dreamheart
WILLIAMSC22
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
09/28/2005 09:07 PM CDT
Not exactly more of an assumption... probably have missed something though or its therenginian. In any event most of the houses are probably intermingled. Putting a question mark by tirof but D'silveron is really the only identifiable house. But otherwise there really isn't much referance to Zoluren's history. Just a thought.
~Ibec Alshaerd
Stamped upon the parchment is the Crest of House Alshaerd. A grandeous phoenix rising from the Greater Fist of Heavens encircled by golden laurels.
RINDW
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
10/24/2005 03:41 PM CDT
Hardly, one might add, the act of a gentleman of noble birth. Not to dispute his lineage, just his honor.
Commander Fenance Frokken,
Zoluren Royal Pathfinders,
His Majesty's Intelligence.
Commander Fenance Frokken,
Zoluren Royal Pathfinders,
His Majesty's Intelligence.
DR-MERIEL
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
11/27/2005 12:48 PM CST
>> Prince Belirendrick III marries Lady Selan Weyato (a Therengian Noble House) in 334<<
Lady Selan died in childbirth with her second son, who was stillborn. Belirendrick III was heartbroken and never remarried.
Lindryl's mother was the bastard sister of Geraedren and Belirendrick III. Her name was Velissana, a Human -- her parents being Belirendrick II and his mistress. Lindryl was born before Belirendrick III (he was 2 years younger than her)... but like most women, is reluctant to discuss her age.
Lady Selan died in childbirth with her second son, who was stillborn. Belirendrick III was heartbroken and never remarried.
Lindryl's mother was the bastard sister of Geraedren and Belirendrick III. Her name was Velissana, a Human -- her parents being Belirendrick II and his mistress. Lindryl was born before Belirendrick III (he was 2 years younger than her)... but like most women, is reluctant to discuss her age.
DRAKEWARLORD
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
11/27/2005 08:07 PM CST
Is there a site where all the family trees of the noble families of Elanthia is all mapped out?
Mists and Magic, Ocean Breazes, Deep Rivers Under the Sea, Trails Between the Stars: Where nothing is as it seems.
Mists and Magic, Ocean Breazes, Deep Rivers Under the Sea, Trails Between the Stars: Where nothing is as it seems.
DREAMWEAVER
Re: Should the Nobles of the lands execute those questioning their rule?
12/03/2005 08:00 PM CST
>> Is there a site where all the family trees of the noble families of Elanthia is all mapped out?
Not that I've ever seen. Aside from a few tidbits of information dropped in casual conversations from time to time, everything that is known comes from the timeline and the few books which make mention of the personages.
I have a summary of Zoluren Monarchy which I refer to from time to time ... I think I posted a part of it here when this thread got derailed a couple months ago in speculation. It took me a lot longer to make said summary than I ever imagined when I started it. Heh. I cannot imagine how long a family tree might take when much of the information is either scattered or doesn't exist...
~Dreamheart
Proprietress, The Wren's Nest Tavern
http://dr.bookofheroes.com
Not that I've ever seen. Aside from a few tidbits of information dropped in casual conversations from time to time, everything that is known comes from the timeline and the few books which make mention of the personages.
I have a summary of Zoluren Monarchy which I refer to from time to time ... I think I posted a part of it here when this thread got derailed a couple months ago in speculation. It took me a lot longer to make said summary than I ever imagined when I started it. Heh. I cannot imagine how long a family tree might take when much of the information is either scattered or doesn't exist...
~Dreamheart
Proprietress, The Wren's Nest Tavern
http://dr.bookofheroes.com
