>>>>1. If you are a common person (not a noble) you do not touch a noble, they touch you. That means you do not kneel and grab their ring and kiss it, you wait for them to extend their hand. You do not pat them on the back. If they hug you, you can hug them back, if they don't, well, don't.<<<<<<<<<<<

I used to do this. I'd wait to be touched, hugged, etc. However after being chided by Lindryl the other day for being TOO formal, I'm going to try just hugging first and touching when I feel its appropriate. If the people I'm touching, kissing and hugging don't like it they can tell me so.

My character is too much in awe of the Prince even to hug him back if and when he does.

Nirveli doesn't touch Owaen or Zoranyl, not because she respects them more but because her relationship is all business with them. Same reason why most people in Elanthia don't rate a hug from her.


>>>>>2. If you are a common person and you have some kind of relationship to a noble (friendship, love, etc) you need to be careful about displaying evidence of such a relationship in public. Since it's not possible for the adventurer to marry the noble, it seems like something else is going on that might not be suitable.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Excuse me but my character's personal relationships are none of your business.

Again this comes under if the person being hugged, kissed, or touched doesn't like it they can tell me so.


>>>One should not address a noble by their first name.<<<

Again if the person being addressed doesn't like it they can speak up. I am only speaking of GM played nobles though. By habit and traditon people in Elanthia are usually adressed by their first name.


>>>don't tell a ruler you "have discussed things and thought them over and you decide you'll agree and comply with their demands"...this smacks of insult. It says that you have a choice and that you only choose to obey them. It is like halfway denying their standing and power. You arn't doing the ruler a favor. <<<<<

Actually I am doing them a favor. I can decide not to work for them, and to not commit my resources, my power and my money. I earned everything I have, and they just got it handed to them.

If you want to blindly obey go right ahead. My character does not. I choose to obey, and I choose to play the game.

I don't know where this idea got started that nobles don't depend on the good graces of the powerful and wealthy. Nobles were always short on cash and needed alliances with the mercantile and craft classes to make they could live in the appropriate style.
Having been born into a powerful and wealthy merchant family IRL I'm well aware myself of how influential money and the right connections are.


PCs are heroes. They are the exceptional memebers of their race or profession. Each one of them has an exceptional background and history.


Also being born into nobility is a misnomer. The Schlosser family and the Reyes family are both what is considered 'minor nobility'. The originators of these families did some service for the royal family and was awarded the patent of nobility.

The patent of nobility, the right to design a crest and titles as well as the oppertunities to marry into the noble and royal lines was a privledge awarded for service to the Crown. It is not outside the realm of possibility to expect Vorclaf to say 'You have done good service for me, I award you a patent of nobility."

Seems like some people are looking at a very narrow slice of European history. My RL family was once peasants, fishermen and traders who because of their services to the Crown recieve status of nobility and eventually married into the royal blood.

It was NOT unusual for merchants and mercenaries to have titles, privledges and land bestowed on them by a grateful monarch.

Titles could also be 'purchased' by donations of coin, equipment, favors, allianaces, indulgences or the liasions of one's kin with the monarch. Certainly the English nobility considered friendships (and more than friendships) as a honorable and accepted way to cement their own claims or to be awarded new claims.

I would expect that if somone in Elanthia donated a huge amount of coin, that could buy them a title. Heck I could respect someone who did that. I mean huge on the national budget scale though.











When tyrants tremble in their fear
and hear their death knell ringing,
when friends rejoice both far and near
how can I keep from singing?

Enya, 'How Can I Keep From Singing'

Rare yes, but not unheard of.

And you Brett are focusing on a very narrow time in history in from what I can see is a very select portion of Europe. If you define narrowly enough you can prove anything.


When tyrants tremble in their fear
and hear their death knell ringing,
when friends rejoice both far and near
how can I keep from singing?

Enyya, 'How Can I Keep From Singing'

I would like to see your thesis, Brett. ;) I've visitted your site a few times before and found it wonderfully informative.

My take on this: Ryeka isn't a 'noblewoman' and never has been. And she's not comfortable with the idea of being treated as one. But she does know something of accepting respect with grace, and she is respectful to the rulers. After all, they've got a big job. However- She isn't subservient, and woe to he who tries to force her to be so! While affectionate, Ryeka knows better than to try to hug a nobleman without invitation. She will listen to what a nobleman says, and if she finds the advice or directive good, she'll take it. She's not shy about approaching- let us say prince Vorclaf- if she knows something he needs to hear. But she won't bait him or talk down to him. Even Raenilar- whom she has no love for at all- will find that she won't waste time or breath on needless insults. Although she refuses to call Raenilar 'King'.

The player behind Ryeka


Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy

A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy

Funny thing about kissing. Having been raised by European parents (one German and one Portugese) I grew up being kissed half to death by relatives. My great-grandparents, grandparents, close family and cousins to the third degree didn't expect a peck on the cheek either.

Now later in life, if you want to shake hands most people act like you have some kind of strange disease.


When tyrants tremble in their fear
and hear their death knell ringing,
when friends rejoice both far and near
how can I keep from singing?

Enyya, 'How Can I Keep From Singing'

<<And there would be reason to just move on and make Elanthia democratic and get it over with. Do we really want that?>>

No way. That would be absolutely boring. And I know the question was rhetorical, but I imagine a lot of people out there would like a democratic Elanthia, so I decided to chime in. For what little it's worth.

And by the way, great posts on the subject, Brett. I would love to read your mini-thesis if you write it.

-Fierolan's player

Have you hugged your embittered Mountain Elf today?

>>>So while RL comparisons are interesting, the history of Midieval Europe would have been quite different if all those serfs were armed and capable of killing their lords.<<<

Serfs were not allowed to carry weapons. However, freemen (which outnumbered serfs for the majority of the Middle Ages) not only were allowed to carry weapons, but were generally required to do so in case of military need. Quite a few of those folks (yeomen, captains, and the like) were well trained killers and at least as good at it as their lords were.

You can't underestimate the power of belief in a system of government.

You also can't trivialize and undermine it with constant roleplay of 'exceptions' and almost no roleplay of the 'rule' when representing a game's government, unless you want it all to fall apart.

---Brett

<<he actually believes that the House of Theren is in charge for a reason, that Chadatru guides the Baron, and that by serving him with loyalty, everything else will fall in place.

>>

This is the important theme that I think is lacking. Belief in the system as was stated and as Kodiac is an example of. Many take the attitude that they should act toward established nobility however they wish because they feel they -can- and they're strong warriors. The -belief- is misplaced too often. People -believed- in the Three Orders system, in divine rule, in feudalism. You followed the ruler because it was his right to rule and he is there for that reason. What was the old saying? 'Don't tell me how to till my lands and I don't tell you how to rule your kingdom' type thing? I hope I am not misquoting that, been a while.




Toulom says to Ibec, "You've unmarried since we last talked."

Ibec says, "wasn't married to begin with"

Toulom snickers to himself.

Toulom cheerfully exclaims, "Exactly!"

A couple clarifications...

Some player or other typo'd and inadvertently licked Lindryl. Being as we all make typos and occassionally mistypye commands, and that the player immediately gave an OOC whisper apologizing and explaning that the command was erroneous, I chose to ignore the verb use after a brief stare at the player and receiving an assurance that it wasn't intended.

Lindryl's nobility... Lindryl's bloodlines are everybit as "good" as Vorclaf's. Vorclaf's father was the youngest child of Belirendrik II; Vorclaf's mother was from Therengian nobility. Lindryl's mother was the eldest child of Belirendrik II; Lindryl's father was from the Elvish nobility of Leth Deriel. Two big differences, however -- first, although the eldest child, Lindryl's mother was illegitimate. Secondly, while Lindryl did grow up in the Zoluren court, she also spent significant time with her Rissan kin. Now, although there is not anything that resembles American democracy in Elanthia, there is considerable movement between social strata on M'Riss. The manners on M'Riss can be every bit as formal as they are on the mainland, but those manners take different form. Their government is a shadowy, secretive thing -- but it is clear that the adventuring class on M'Riss does hold some power since commanders and ambassadors are selected by the adventuring class itself and that recommended selection approved or disapproved by those who do rule M'Riss.

Because of her background and circumstances, she is more tolerant of behavior that would be viewed as "inappropriate" ... but don't take that as any indication that she herself is not a noble. If you want to take the view her education, morals, and conduct are deficient that is quite one thing -- but to conclude that her lineage is suspect would be a mistake.

>>Lindryl is a sweetie, Striderr was crushed when he found out she got married while he was gone and had a kid. <sniffle>

Don't worry, there's an easy solution. Get married to some random woman, and then you might get a shot.



>
(Korsik dragon)
>
You exclaim, "Rawr! Fire!"

I'd go play over in M'riss if there was anything besides gem selling to do there for traders.


When tyrants tremble in their fear
and hear their death knell ringing,
when friends rejoice both far and near
how can I keep from singing?

Enyya, 'How Can I Keep From Singing'

>>>Because of her background and circumstances, she is more tolerant of behavior that would be viewed as "inappropriate" ... but don't take that as any indication that she herself is not a noble. If you want to take the view her education, morals, and conduct are deficient that is quite one thing -- but to conclude that her lineage is suspect would be a mistake. <<<

Or that might be just the exact reason as to why a PC might consider Lindryl not noble at all. There is a tendancy by individuals in culture "Y" to view individuals in culture "X" as NOT the same as themselves. Other than the obvious "this dude looks different", what I am saying here is that it was very much the case for one ruler in Europe to look at another ruler in the Middle East or in the America's and say "This other King is no King at all". This trend in European culture, and its variants, is documentable to that date when European's first started writing things down.

The fact that M'Riss has a governing council that is secreted away and that one of these members could be the butcher, baker, or candlestick maker could very much be used as a spring board for one set of Nobility to look at M'Riss and say "You see thier rulers are not noble at all."

>>>Lindryl's nobility... Lindryl's bloodlines are everybit as "good" as Vorclaf's. Vorclaf's father was the youngest child of Belirendrik II; Vorclaf's mother was from Therengian nobility. Lindryl's mother was the eldest child of Belirendrik II; Lindryl's father was from the Elvish nobility of Leth Deriel. Two big differences, however -- first, although the eldest child, Lindryl's mother was illegitimate. Secondly, while Lindryl did grow up in the Zoluren court, she also spent significant time with her Rissan kin.<<<

As far as Lindryl's geneology goes it may appear, from a certain perspective, that her claim to the Principality is a little stronger that Vorclaf's. Her mother, as stated, was the primogeniture to the Belirendrik throne, legitimate or illegitimate births were ALWAYS a point of contention within the cultural dynamic we are discussing.

The biggest issue against Lindryl's claim here is one of base function and even baser human nature. The function is that she is Elven ... ie allow an elf to ascend to the throne of a human kingdom and what you now have is an Elven kingdom ... thousands of years is impossible to make up from the human side. The human nature part is the fact that Lindryl is elven. Which means she is the "other" with in the dominant human culture of Zoluren. A functioning Noble culture is not going to miss that, and if they are threatened with extinction would respond accordingly, as history shows us.

And yes, if Keresyk assends the throne we will have an Elven kingdom in Zoluren ... or a Bonny Prince Charley if it played true to form.

--Tim the player of Vidumavi

I don't think it's so much that it's 'bad' to be ruled by elves (I know some would disagree ;) ) but that it's very clear from the stability of human noble/royal rule in P1 and P2 that regular mixing with Elves COULD NOT have happened. Elves simply live longer; even if, say, the third child of a human-elf royal marriage was elven, and the other two were human, the third child would outlive the other two and take over at some point and reign for hundreds of years.

If that elf married another elf, that would be pretty much make the royal family elven in its entirety. Seeing that we have strongly established human Royal lines and noble lines, then the assumption MUST be made that the above scenario was not permitted to occur.

Again, it's not a crime if all the kingdoms end up ruled by longer lived races; but that does make things boringly static, and it's more fun to have some kingdoms ruled by humans, some by dwarves, and so forth. The only way this can be logically maintained is if royal intermarriage to the longer lived races is heavily, heavily discouraged.


---Brett

<<<With a human heir to the throne, especially an issuance directly from the Prince, there would be no need to concern ourselves with the situation. Which means that there should be a scouring of all eligible females of the Humans, Kaldar, Olvi, and Rakash to find a suitable wife for the good Prince.>>>

Olvi have too much foot hair. Rakash might be interesting on a full moon. Atleast you didn't recommend a Gnome. Human is probably a wise choice but... Mmmm... Elven.

-V

You know what would be great is if Emmilyn inheirted Zoluren and Keresyk ruled in Leth.


When tyrants tremble in their fear
and hear their death knell ringing,
when friends rejoice both far and near
how can I keep from singing?

Enyya, 'How Can I Keep From Singing'

>>>This is an acknowlegement that all houses started with an exceptional commoner. <<<

Try to trace back a few English or French noble houses and see where they start. I can save you the time and tell you that they almost all declare that their first noted ancestor was a noble under Charlemagne, chosen from the upperclass of various tribes. They really like to feel as if they were never, ever common or that if they had a commoner in their past, it was one tiny blip buried in the avalanche of nobles. Not that they'd want to talk about it generally.

>>>It prevents inbreeding, something the british and the former spanish royal house could have sorely used.<<<

Oh yes, most definitely. All governmental forms have their downsides. The potential for inbreeding is definitely the downside of any government that elevated some bloodlines above others.

>>>And forces a closer understanding of what the purpose of royalty is.<<<

Which is?

Don't forget that feudalism is based upon bloodline. Royal babies were not allowed to nurse from commoner nannies because they might get too much 'commoner' into their bodies. Feudal people saw this in a very real, physical, absolute kind of way - not a theoretical, 'we can call it whatever we want' sort of way. When it became close to impossible to keep the families distinct based on blood, this was one reason why feudalism disintegrated. You lose that keystone, the whole arch crumbles.

>>>And as was previously mentioned, it prevents the lords from gaining too much power.<<<

Then I can't see too many lords going along with it. A lot of people are unaware that the Magna Carta was not about the inherent rights of man; it was a group of nobles getting together and forcing the King to sign a document that guaranteed their power. They had felt that things were getting too centralized.

>>>The biggest problems of most systems of government has always been the prevention of those who are worthy from ever acheiving anything, and allowing incompetent people to rule in their place.<<<

Yep. This happens in different ways in different governments. People as a whole are not stunningly bright, and stupid things are done by stupid people no matter how much people try to resist that inevitability. Our modern Democracy is no exception to this.

By the way, the idea for a story is quite interesting, don't get me wrong. I just see it as adding more internal confusion to a system that is already difficult for most gamers to grasp, so I wouldn't recommend it for a game like DR. Clarity and reinforcement is by far the route with less hassle in the long run.

---Brett

>>And forces a closer understanding of what the purpose of royalty is.

Uh. Last time I checked... power. And that's about it.

Money, fame, and an occupied bed were all part of power. If you couldn't get one of the three whenever you wanted it, you weren't in control. And nobility could.

They wrote the laws, and it was their "god-given right" to not follow them.

>
(Korsik dragon)
>
You exclaim, "Rawr! Fire!"

>>And forces a closer understanding of what the purpose of royalty is.

<<Uh. Last time I checked... power. And that's about it.

The purpose of royalty is to govern and protect their people. Kings who ignore this sufficiently tend to come to messy ends. Of course for every 50 kings that ignore this only 1 will ever succeed in pissing off enough people, or rather the right people, in order to be removed.

Mole

AIM ~ Jasperjohn DR

WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?
Help. Help. If anyone reads this I am being held prisoner by an evil Eunuch. Help.

>>>I think that it's a little alarmist to worry about the throne of Zoluren being occupied by Elves any time soon. <<<

I don't think anyone was panicking. We're just discussing logical gameworld flow.

>>And even if Vorclaf marries Silvyrfrost (and there's no guarantee that she would, as she's devoted to her Guild) any children of the union (possibly a while in arriving due to the nature of Elven reproduction) may well be Human. <<<

Even if one of them is elven, it will outlive the human heirs and eventually take the crown. That's the problem with blending in longer-lived races with human royal succession lines. If it was done on an even occasional basis, odds are that over the centuries, there would be no human royal families anywhere.

This isn't about our characters running around screaming that the sky is falling; it's about players looking at what feasibly must have been a pattern of tradition and what that means as far as consistent gameplay: i.e., a tradition limiting elven heirs, one way or another.

By the way, that's another good point that would make yet another reason for discouraging a human noble from marrying an elf; the difficulty of producing an heir. Humans are much more likely to be 'safe' in that regard. (Of course, people rarely actually play it that way. If you go with what players do, elves are really, really fecund and popping out babies constantly.)

---Brett

Well in terms of Zoluren politics its not a matter if the prince is elven and can live 100+ years. If he is a tyrant and downright aweful... he won't last long. There is other possiblities of em meeting an end.. There have been five Royal Houses in the span of Zoluren's existance and Vorclaf's will likely not be the last. If Silvyrfrost and Vorclaf marry and produce progeny good for them. It is far better to have heirs than have no heirs. If the line of succession were to end there would be a guarrenty of another civil war. Just a thought.

Commander Ibec Alshaerd of the Royal Navy

---

Stamped upon the parchment is the Crest of House Alshaerd. A grandeous phoenix rising from the Greater Fist of Heavens encircled by golden laurels.