Nice post, Blas. But I have one thing to say against it.
There are races within DR that have absolutely ZERO (known) history of a hereditary nobility, i. e., the Prydaen and Rakash. These two races make up a significant fraction of the low-to-middle circle ranges (defined as 0-29 for low and 30-70 for middle), and quite a few have a tendency to be as "traditional" to the upbringing of the race as we, the players, can make them. Within this traditional frame, there are few ways to have any such knowledge of hereditary nobility to take root, much less become a standard mode of behavior.
So it becomes a struggle to define the "proper modes of behavior" for a member of those two races. For the Prydaens, as an example that I have theories about (which doesn't apply to the Rakash, as I have never played one, and I will gladly listen to comments regarding their pack structure and society), the highest place in their social structure is that of Elder. This term covers a vast range and can refer to a war leader, a high cleric, and a respected hunter. Also, this rank can only be earned, and granted to someone only by another Elder, of which there are only two known to be alive in the game, Balam and Ra'sulor. Neither of them have been seen for a long time, and, as such, have not elevated anyone to Eldership, much less acknowledged the current rulers of the Provinces.
So how would a player of Prydaens adapt the RP of their character with respect to the royalty of DR? Are they all to be considered Elders? Again, that is something that can only be earned. If the character volunteered to be a member of one of the various units, then such respect would be given by inference, treating them as a form of honorary Elder. But this would apply only to the royal(s) directly above them in the chain of command, as those outside of the chain have few ways of influencing the character's point of view. Therefore, a Lieutenant in a Rathan unit would not automatically consider one of the Three to be an Elder-equivalent for them, much less one of the Rissan nobles. (Examples: Commander Scandi of Zoluren and Commander Anbeth of Therengia are both Prydaen, so they would, by this thinking, have unconsciously and instinctively treated their respective rulers as they were Elders. Whether they did so would be an RP choice that their players would have to make.) Also along these lines would be if the character had not the sightest interest whatsoever in the war, the military, non-Prydaen culture or non-Prydaens themselves. How would such a character view this whole "nobility" garbage? Would they simply write it off as "a crazy furless waste of time" or would they adapt? Again, it's the RP choices.
And now we come to how the Elders are treated in Prydaen society. (Parenthetical comments are my opinion regarding each point. They are not factual IG material.) Does a Prydaen always bow and/or kneel when an Elder enters the area? (Depends on the reason for elevation. For war leaders and hunters, some sign of respect is required, whether by head, ear, tail, or body. Only the High Priests of Eu-Demrris-Tenemlor rank the kneel, for they are the embodiment of the Three.) Or remain standing because the Elder does so? (In Hub councils, yes. In informal settings, no.) Would a Prydaen refrain from touching or initiating any physical contact with an Elder? (Not in the slightest. Physical contact is common among Prydaens and can go to a level of intimacy that non-Prydaens are highly uncomfortable with.) Can an Elder be contradicted in Prydaen society, in public or in private, without loss of face? (Yes and yes. Because Elders are chosen rather than born, their views can still be faulty. And if they did not want to be contradicted, they should not have made the discussion public.)
Unfortunately, any answer that we can give to those questions at this time could be subject to change when the racial histories are (finally) released. However, a noble, whether PC- or GM-run, would know that this is an entire race of people that have entirely different traditions than the original Nine Races known at the time of Lanival. (From my understanding of the Kaldar and Gnome histories, they do have a tradition of hereditary nobility in Albaria. Somewhat different in areas, especially for those Kaldar that refer to themselves as Gorbesh still, but similar enough to be recognisable as respectful treatment of royalty.) Some will understand this and understand that the behavior of Prydaens in front of royalty is how they would treat their own acknowledged Elders, and be satisfied with it. Some will see this as the semi-barbaric yowling of a race that should be removed from their presence with all undue speed, as well as all due cuts, lumps, and bruises for their insolence.
Such decisions are obviously the players to make when it comes to how to treat the different races. But assuming all to be human and with human characteristics of royalty is not sufficient. Every race, by my reading of things, has their own view of how the cultural leaders, whether nobility or other, are to be treated. This holds for Elven, Olvi, Eloth, S'kra, Toggish, and Haakish cultures as well as the more recently established ones such as Prydaen and Rakash. If you're going to play a noble of a specific race, you might want to review what all those other cultures think about nobility as you write up the backgrounds. That way, you'll have these responses of your own ready to go instead of winging it like everyone seems to do.
And just as a tongue-in-cheek remark, the day any royal looks down on an empath for laying down in their presence (thanks to the empath healing their legs off for said royal) is the day that royal loses much respect from my character.
Amagaim; the player of,
AMAGAIM
MAX
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/02/2004 10:41 PM CDT
In regards to Rakash and Prydaen culture versus the other culture and social hierarchy, i think the one big thing to say is that the Rakash and Prydaen are displaced people. They are largely seen as foreigners and most are commonly expected by the people already living in the lands to either assimilate. In this way a conflict between cultures is essentially eliminated because a dominiant and installed culture is seen to have the power whereas the prydaen and rakash are foreigners and refugees. I know that there are some people who hate the prydaen and rakash, some who are bothered by in-yo-face prydaen and rakash who are insistant on the validity of their culture (my character has a dislike for nonassimilating prydaen, rakash sometimes seem to be more willing to assimilate), and then there are those who either dont care are are completely tolerant.
You bring up good points but I fear almost that it might be a topic for a separate thread.
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You bring up good points but I fear almost that it might be a topic for a separate thread.
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GOSSFORD
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/02/2004 10:43 PM CDT
The newer races should be aware of the laws and customs of the land they are in. While it is expected that they should have different manerisms they are not in the ruling classes of the current accessible provinces. If there was a prydaen ruled province then humans would be expected to act with the proper respect and court procedure to the rulling class.
If one visits a foreign land then one should be aware of the basic cultural differences that could get one killed or stoned.
I have never checked into the origins of the new races so I do not know if they are indegent to the 4 provinces.
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If one visits a foreign land then one should be aware of the basic cultural differences that could get one killed or stoned.
I have never checked into the origins of the new races so I do not know if they are indegent to the 4 provinces.
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AMAGAIM
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/02/2004 11:25 PM CDT
>>>I have never checked into the origins of the new races so I do not know if they are indegent to the 4 provinces.
The Prydaen and Rakash are from the western lands. There were some members of the 9 races in the west, but it's unknown whether they were as prominent as they are over here. The western lands were conquered by the Necromancer Lyras, and they are, as Blasword said, 'displaced people" or refugees.
The Kaldar and Gnome races came from the southern continent of Albaria. Kaldar are, in essence, the same physically and genetically as the Gorbesh. They have simply thrown aside the Gorbesh cultural reference and moved north, creating a new cultural identity. The gnomes came along with them to find a place where they can be their own people and out from under the thumbs of the Gorbesh.
All four races came into the provinces at approximately the same time. The Prydaen and Rakash came from due west and the Gnome and Kaldar came from the southwest, probably through Forfedhar. (Contrary to the opinion that some have, they did not come in at the same place or the same time. There was a separation of both time and space between their arrivals.)
As to the assimilation question, let's use an RL example. How many people from major cultures that emigrate into the US completely assimilate within American culture in three generations? Very few. The only ones I can think of would be the Germans of post-WWI and the post-Revolution Russians. And even the German example is not all that good, seeing as how the US has enough Octoberfest celebrations to fill Bavaria. The Irish still have their own culture (helped by Americans turning St. Padraig's Day into a binging party), as do the Mexicans, Japanese, Chinese, Nigerians, Haitians, Brazilians, Indians, Pakistani... The list goes on and on. Are these cultures any less valid for being left behind? Or any less important? Some Americans think they should be subsumed into the existing structure. Some don't. And obviously, those that work to keep the cultures alive don't either.
Reminds me of the time when I was in high school and there was a guy there who grew up in a traditional Samoan family. Third-generation American, too. He even still wore the skirt for daily wear. He got teased for a few days until the defensive captain of the football team called him a woman. Then Moa decided to splat him against the wall. Seven times. In two different buildings. Using one hand. And without dropping his soda.
He didn't have too many problems after that day.
Culture and identity are important to a people when they are far from home. And especially when they come from a proud culture like we find in the Prydaen, Rakash, and Kaldar. There are those that don't see it, those that do see it, and those that don't want to see it.
Amagaim; the player of,
That or make you a first circle Empath who must work 24/7 in the Infirmary, with access only to EWH, while Jourok reads bad poetry and microeconomics of third world nations in his full accent.
--- SGM Auriane
The Prydaen and Rakash are from the western lands. There were some members of the 9 races in the west, but it's unknown whether they were as prominent as they are over here. The western lands were conquered by the Necromancer Lyras, and they are, as Blasword said, 'displaced people" or refugees.
The Kaldar and Gnome races came from the southern continent of Albaria. Kaldar are, in essence, the same physically and genetically as the Gorbesh. They have simply thrown aside the Gorbesh cultural reference and moved north, creating a new cultural identity. The gnomes came along with them to find a place where they can be their own people and out from under the thumbs of the Gorbesh.
All four races came into the provinces at approximately the same time. The Prydaen and Rakash came from due west and the Gnome and Kaldar came from the southwest, probably through Forfedhar. (Contrary to the opinion that some have, they did not come in at the same place or the same time. There was a separation of both time and space between their arrivals.)
As to the assimilation question, let's use an RL example. How many people from major cultures that emigrate into the US completely assimilate within American culture in three generations? Very few. The only ones I can think of would be the Germans of post-WWI and the post-Revolution Russians. And even the German example is not all that good, seeing as how the US has enough Octoberfest celebrations to fill Bavaria. The Irish still have their own culture (helped by Americans turning St. Padraig's Day into a binging party), as do the Mexicans, Japanese, Chinese, Nigerians, Haitians, Brazilians, Indians, Pakistani... The list goes on and on. Are these cultures any less valid for being left behind? Or any less important? Some Americans think they should be subsumed into the existing structure. Some don't. And obviously, those that work to keep the cultures alive don't either.
Reminds me of the time when I was in high school and there was a guy there who grew up in a traditional Samoan family. Third-generation American, too. He even still wore the skirt for daily wear. He got teased for a few days until the defensive captain of the football team called him a woman. Then Moa decided to splat him against the wall. Seven times. In two different buildings. Using one hand. And without dropping his soda.
He didn't have too many problems after that day.
Culture and identity are important to a people when they are far from home. And especially when they come from a proud culture like we find in the Prydaen, Rakash, and Kaldar. There are those that don't see it, those that do see it, and those that don't want to see it.
Amagaim; the player of,
That or make you a first circle Empath who must work 24/7 in the Infirmary, with access only to EWH, while Jourok reads bad poetry and microeconomics of third world nations in his full accent.
--- SGM Auriane
HELLCAT
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/03/2004 12:04 AM CDT
>Amagaim
Very excellent post. We should chat.
Ternith Sjomah
__
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Very excellent post. We should chat.
Ternith Sjomah
__
If tomorrow we woke up, and all the porn was removed from the internet, the following day there would remain but one website on the net and it would be entitled "BRING BACK THE PORN" and have 6,369,582,099 subscribers.
CULLEN1
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/03/2004 08:07 AM CDT
>In regards to Rakash and Prydaen culture
My opinion is, in regards to these races.. they are intelligent groups. They would learn by watching how others behave. In other words, when in Rome...
My opinion is, in regards to these races.. they are intelligent groups. They would learn by watching how others behave. In other words, when in Rome...
GUTTERBUNNY
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/03/2004 12:47 PM CDT
>My opinion is, in regards to these races.. they are intelligent groups. They would learn by watching how others behave. In other words, when in Rome...
Assuming you are from the US, would you ask an immigrant to the United States to forsake their culture and become completely Americanized? I would hope not. Behaving in a civil manner and respecting the culture of the land you are living in is expected. Giving up your own value and belief system in favor of theirs is not. Vien may listen if ordered to do something by the law or a Noble. She's in foreign lands, she has to obey the laws here as she would her own. However, she's not going to curtsy and fall all over herself when a Lord walks into the room. She doesn't understand why the furless think these people are so important, and she's not about to pretend she does.
~Vien De'Lionne of the Monks, a Prydaen.
Assuming you are from the US, would you ask an immigrant to the United States to forsake their culture and become completely Americanized? I would hope not. Behaving in a civil manner and respecting the culture of the land you are living in is expected. Giving up your own value and belief system in favor of theirs is not. Vien may listen if ordered to do something by the law or a Noble. She's in foreign lands, she has to obey the laws here as she would her own. However, she's not going to curtsy and fall all over herself when a Lord walks into the room. She doesn't understand why the furless think these people are so important, and she's not about to pretend she does.
~Vien De'Lionne of the Monks, a Prydaen.
BRETTH
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/03/2004 12:54 PM CDT
>>>Assuming you are from the US, would you ask an immigrant to the United States to forsake their culture and become completely Americanized?<<<
I think the discussion is getting pulled out of its original shape. The point, as far as I could see it, is that a displaced group of people end up living under the laws of another country, for good or ill. I don't think it means that their culture has to be thrown out the window. I know lots of people maintaining 'foreign' culture but voting for the President and abiding by the driving laws, for example.
---Brett
I think the discussion is getting pulled out of its original shape. The point, as far as I could see it, is that a displaced group of people end up living under the laws of another country, for good or ill. I don't think it means that their culture has to be thrown out the window. I know lots of people maintaining 'foreign' culture but voting for the President and abiding by the driving laws, for example.
---Brett
WYATTB2
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/03/2004 01:08 PM CDT
<<Assuming you are from the US, would you ask an immigrant to the United States to forsake their culture and become completely Americanized?>>
That?s not the point at all. If you were from a country in which it was common courteously to greet that countries equivalency to a congressman or Senator or president with a kiss on the cheek you would not come to this country and be allowed to do that at all. You would be expected to follow the common dictates of the country you are in. In the same why if in New Zealand they called judges Sir if you were in a court in this country you would be expected to address the judge as your honor regardless of what was done in New Zealand.
Now let?s transplant that to the Dragonrealms. No matter how the Praydeen addressed or interacted with their elders in their culture when meeting with the prince of Zoluren or King of Ilithi you would be required to act appropriately as per the culture of the area you are in. That is not to say you need to Zolurenize and lose what make you Praydeen it does mean you can?t go and just do whatever you want and use the excuse well its my culture any more then I love when people enjoy saying I?m not a citizen of anyplace so I can do whatever I want and your stinking laws don?t apply to me.
That?s not the point at all. If you were from a country in which it was common courteously to greet that countries equivalency to a congressman or Senator or president with a kiss on the cheek you would not come to this country and be allowed to do that at all. You would be expected to follow the common dictates of the country you are in. In the same why if in New Zealand they called judges Sir if you were in a court in this country you would be expected to address the judge as your honor regardless of what was done in New Zealand.
Now let?s transplant that to the Dragonrealms. No matter how the Praydeen addressed or interacted with their elders in their culture when meeting with the prince of Zoluren or King of Ilithi you would be required to act appropriately as per the culture of the area you are in. That is not to say you need to Zolurenize and lose what make you Praydeen it does mean you can?t go and just do whatever you want and use the excuse well its my culture any more then I love when people enjoy saying I?m not a citizen of anyplace so I can do whatever I want and your stinking laws don?t apply to me.
GUTTERBUNNY
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/03/2004 01:21 PM CDT
>That is not to say you need to Zolurenize and lose what make you Praydeen it does mean you can?t go and just do whatever you want and use the excuse well its my culture any more then I love when people enjoy saying I?m not a citizen of anyplace so I can do whatever I want and your stinking laws don?t apply to me.
Its funny, because that is the exact OPPOSITE of what I said. Reread my post.
I said I WILL, and do follow the laws of the land just as I would my own. I will NOT however, fall all over myself calling someone Lord or Your Highness and bowing until my knees break. I'm not going to spit on the Noble's shoes or anything, I'm just not going to do anything special for him either. I'm not saying "I'm not a citizen of anyplace so I can do whatever I want and your stinking laws don't apply to me." As you put it. I'm just indifferent to Eastern nobility.
~Vien De'Lionne of the Monks, a Prydaen.
Its funny, because that is the exact OPPOSITE of what I said. Reread my post.
I said I WILL, and do follow the laws of the land just as I would my own. I will NOT however, fall all over myself calling someone Lord or Your Highness and bowing until my knees break. I'm not going to spit on the Noble's shoes or anything, I'm just not going to do anything special for him either. I'm not saying "I'm not a citizen of anyplace so I can do whatever I want and your stinking laws don't apply to me." As you put it. I'm just indifferent to Eastern nobility.
~Vien De'Lionne of the Monks, a Prydaen.
GOSSFORD
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/03/2004 01:56 PM CDT
If you cant comprehend why nobility is so important then why would you even seek an audiance?
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GUTTERBUNNY
Re: Post addressing how nobility RP . . . (LONG RESPONSE)
06/03/2004 02:03 PM CDT
>If you cant comprehend why nobility is so important then why would you even seek an audiance?
I wouldn't.
The examples I was giving were more for those rare occasions that the Nobles decide to come out and mingle, and they happen to end up in the same room my character is in. Its not like I'm chasing down Nobles just so I can stand around and look indifferent.
~Vien De'Lionne of the Monks, a Prydaen.
I wouldn't.
The examples I was giving were more for those rare occasions that the Nobles decide to come out and mingle, and they happen to end up in the same room my character is in. Its not like I'm chasing down Nobles just so I can stand around and look indifferent.
~Vien De'Lionne of the Monks, a Prydaen.
