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DR-KOROR
Events and you!
02/16/2020 07:49 PM CST
I wanted to open a discussion on events to both offer some perspective and get some feedback. Usual disclaimers apply regarding what can happen, what will happen, etc. Note this is not in response to any event specifically.
As the team has grown, we have had the ability to offer responses to player-led events more frequently, and we also have the chance to start planning more GM-led events. First, I want to talk about player-led events.
Player-Led Events
We often get e-mail from players discussing their RP plans. These are great, as they let us consider how to best respond, and let us know whom and where to watch! While it would be great if we could respond to every event, or even watch for all examples of RP ever occurring anywhere, that is simply not possible. Accordingly, these e-mails can go a long way towards ensuring we are able to best craft a response. Not that a GM response is required for all events to be fun, but we do understand the desire to feel that the game environment is responding to your actions, and of course, we do enjoy responding when appropriate.
So what do we look for in player events?
1. A firm grounding in the reality of the game world; a recognition of the existing body of game lore and the desire to explore it, and operate within it. To be somewhat glib about this point, if you propose that the secret lizard overlords of Katamba have instructed you to sing the song of their people, and doing so will cause a volcano to emerge under Crossing, it is likely that your event will not end with a volcano emerging under Crossing. To be serious about this point, understand that while you (or your character) may wish for a particular outcome, that does not mean we will provide this outcome for you. Also understand that generally speaking, one-off efforts by a single character will not result in sweeping changes to the landscape of the game.
2. Involvement of multiple people. This one is a little fuzzy -- while we absolutely will respond when appropriate to single players or small groups of players, generally speaking we prefer that the event proper be a public affair. We want you to roleplay with one another, and for our involvement, if we do get involved, to enhance these exchanges, not be the focus of them. Also understand that to avoid the sentiment of favoritism, we prefer that information provided in events be available to all. Of course, some events will involve actions or knowledge that characters wish to keep secret.
3. Adequate time to prepare. This is a big one -- considering a response and crafting it can take time, and with adequate preparation, is often something than can be "delivered" by any GM. Personally, I have crafted some responses to events that required considerable preparation, and then had a real-life conflict arise at the last minute. This proved to be a non-issue, as a fellow GM was able to "run through" (and improve on the fly!) the event response I had put together. Of course, we also understand (and love) that spontaneous RP happens, and we get plenty of e-mails or reports to the effect of "My character is doing a thing in 1 hour, just letting you know." These are also very helpful for us to know where to look, though we may not be able to respond on the fly. Still, communication is preferred!
There is a mixed goal with responses to player events: we want to help make the game world feel dynamic and responsive to your characters actions, but we also do not want to "steal your thunder."
GM-led events
There are often complaints that GM-led events are "on rails." It is sometimes true that events have to reach a particular outcome, especially when a release or update is predicated on that event. We try to make the process of getting there flexible and responsive to player action, but this is still how a game story unfolds. To use an old example, when the Turtle exploded, that was a planned event that was going to happen. Players responded, things occurred, but that Turtle was going to explode. To use a modern example, the Maelshyve Death event, Maelshyve was going to "die" at the end, but we did write a variety of branches and responses in anticipation of the different ways players might have responded. Sometimes, events mark the release of something, and no matter what, that thing is going to be released at the end of the event.
We do not want an event to feel preordained or for your characters to feel like bit players, but this is also a multiplayer game, and not everyone can be in the spotlight 100% of the time. You may not get to be the hero who stops the bad thing from happening or the villain who makes the bad thing happen. We will respond and push the story along to the best of our capacity and include player action and responses to player planning to the best the story allows, but in some cases, ultimately, the event will get from A -> B.
What I would like to encourage people to consider is how their character would respond to the evolving game world, just as real people have to respond to events that are beyond their control. Many of us had very exciting experiences involving the game setting and story developments in the past, and OUR enjoyment of those experiences as players is what drove us to want to work on and provide those experiences as GMs. I personally think a mix of both player event responses and GM-led events are important to the ongoing game world.
With GM-led events, we absolutely look for player involvement and opportunities to specifically respond to players operating within the event.
So, all that said, I want to open this as a discussion. What do you want to see more or less of? What events or areas of the lore are most exciting to you? What discourages or prevents you from getting involved in events? I understand there are many of plot arcs that have been left incomplete over the years -- some of these can be picked up, some cannot. Ultimately we want you to enjoy the setting and the stories we work on, so please let us know how we can better deliver that (within the context of what I outlined above).
TK-421
Re: Events and you!
02/16/2020 08:04 PM CST
>> What discourages or prevents you from getting involved in events?
A big one for me is location. Not necessarily geographic location, but repeated GM-led events inside of Standard Justice is problematic for an entire class of PCs.
If an event needs to be in Crossing/Riverhaven/Theren, awesome. Go for it. If it doesn't, though, please consider spreading the locations around. The various clans, maybe? (Bonus: make us explore the lesser-known haunts.)
- I
A big one for me is location. Not necessarily geographic location, but repeated GM-led events inside of Standard Justice is problematic for an entire class of PCs.
If an event needs to be in Crossing/Riverhaven/Theren, awesome. Go for it. If it doesn't, though, please consider spreading the locations around. The various clans, maybe? (Bonus: make us explore the lesser-known haunts.)
- I
ELWYNN
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 07:55 AM CST
There is so much fantastic lore in this game that it completely boggles my mind. However, most of this lore is still secret and behind the scenes. While there needs to be a good level of mystery left in the game to make it interesting, it would also be great if there were more teasers and a little more information about the lore in the game. While mystery is important, I often wonder what's the point of great lore if no one knows it. In short, the lore should be more discoverable.
Also, I like microtrans events. I think they are wonderful, however, most of the time I don't understand how the events fit into the roleplaying narrative.
Finally, posts made by Armifer and others about lore are wonderful. Please make those posts available in game, whether in books or by NPCs relaying information.
To summarize, I would like more events that help us understand lore.
Also, I like microtrans events. I think they are wonderful, however, most of the time I don't understand how the events fit into the roleplaying narrative.
Finally, posts made by Armifer and others about lore are wonderful. Please make those posts available in game, whether in books or by NPCs relaying information.
To summarize, I would like more events that help us understand lore.
LENAEA
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 08:57 AM CST
What you folks do is difficult, time consuming, and often undervalued. Please know that you and your work are appreciated.
> What do you want to see more or less of?
I'd like to see more GM interaction in player-led events. I realize you explained why sometimes that can't happen. Nevertheless, that's something I'd like to see.
I'd like to see some specific acknowledgement when you folks use ideas generated by players. It's only fair that you tell a player you are using an idea or concept they submitted, even if you tell them outside of the game environment.
I'd like to see roleplay events that are directly related to major system releases. Case in point: Enchanting. Moon Mage enchanting died abruptly without any roleplay event at all. Such a fundamental change should necessitate at least *something happening* in game to justify it.
> What events or areas of the lore are most exciting to you?
Moon Mage lore, but I may be a bit biased. To be honest, I'm also quite interested in Ranger lore. The Ranger guild seems to have been forgotten for at least a decade and that's a real shame.
> What discourages or prevents you from getting involved in events?
Nastiness and contrariness from players. Players who come to events only to troll. The inevitable alarmist that runs in screaming "This is too dangerous!" I realize you have no control over whatever players decide to do, but you asked, so there you go.
> What do you want to see more or less of?
I'd like to see more GM interaction in player-led events. I realize you explained why sometimes that can't happen. Nevertheless, that's something I'd like to see.
I'd like to see some specific acknowledgement when you folks use ideas generated by players. It's only fair that you tell a player you are using an idea or concept they submitted, even if you tell them outside of the game environment.
I'd like to see roleplay events that are directly related to major system releases. Case in point: Enchanting. Moon Mage enchanting died abruptly without any roleplay event at all. Such a fundamental change should necessitate at least *something happening* in game to justify it.
> What events or areas of the lore are most exciting to you?
Moon Mage lore, but I may be a bit biased. To be honest, I'm also quite interested in Ranger lore. The Ranger guild seems to have been forgotten for at least a decade and that's a real shame.
> What discourages or prevents you from getting involved in events?
Nastiness and contrariness from players. Players who come to events only to troll. The inevitable alarmist that runs in screaming "This is too dangerous!" I realize you have no control over whatever players decide to do, but you asked, so there you go.
DR-KOROR
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 09:02 AM CST
>A big one for me is location. Not necessarily geographic location, but repeated GM-led events inside of Standard Justice is problematic for an entire class of PCs.
One of out goals is to try and pull events/RP into other other provinces that we feel are somewhat under utilized, both in terms of lore/RP/stories, and location. I will say that sometimes it can be difficult getting people's attention for events outside of Zoluren. These days, I believe some degree of OOC-adjacent nudging is appropriate to let people know something is going on, often to the tune of an announcement of "a loud explosion can be heard in the direction of Shard!" that is heard throughout the entire realms. This is a little immersion breaking, but I think also recognizes that people are scattered throughout the realms and often not going to see a single line in the Story Window.
With respect to JUSTICE and Necromancers, this works both ways. There have been events exclusively for Necromancers, in the guild halls, and there are events that are simply not going to be friendly to Necromancers, for example, in the Temple. Best judgement applies here -- Necromancers shouldn't expect to have an easy time participating in events inside the Temple proper, and this has led to some interesting interactions. With the JUSTICE updates, Necromancers are in some respects more able to operate in JUSTICE zones, albeit for a fixed period of time. But yes, continuing to host events that are not in JUSTICE zones will facilitate Necromancer involvement.
Is there a particular province you would like to see further explored?
>There is so much fantastic lore in this game that it completely boggles my mind.
Mine too. There have been some truly talented writers pouring a lot of thought and passion and love into this game over multiple decades. It's incredible, and being part of it is more than a little daunting.
>While mystery is important, I often wonder what's the point of great lore if no one knows it. In short, the lore should be more discoverable.
I agree with you -- if we have written something for player enjoyment, we want it to be enjoyed! Elanthipedia has been a generally positive resource for that, with some people very diligently updating things as they discover them.
Do you have any suggestions or ideas for how to make these things more discoverable or accessible? More lore posts to the forums, per your later suggestion?
>Also, I like microtrans events. I think they are wonderful, however, most of the time I don't understand how the events fit into the roleplaying narrative.
They represent their own story lines that are fit within the greater game narrative. Often they will serve as a platform to further explore existing lore, and we often try and do so in a way that is not behind a paywall. The death of the Spider for example was visible to anyone.
>To summarize, I would like more events that help us understand lore.
Layer by layer, piece by piece, we will throw even greater mysteries at you!
DR-KOROR
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 09:50 AM CST
>I'd like to see some specific acknowledgement when you folks use ideas generated by players. It's only fair that you tell a player you are using an idea or concept they submitted, even if you tell them outside of the game environment.
Often to the best of our abilities we do so by including said players in the lore they have helped drive forward.
>I'd like to see roleplay events that are directly related to major system releases.
Agreed! This relates to my previous point about how sometimes GM led events need to get from point A -> B. If a release is planned, and we're doing an event to lead up to it, this is the sort of event that will ultimately reach the prespecified conclusion. But agreed, wrapping releases in impactful events is something we will continue to try and accomplish when appropriate. For example, the release of a new spell or area is an opportunity for some roleplay. A tweak to the way some spells work (changing it from a Basic Spell to an Advanced Spell, say) is probably not going to see an involved event.
>Nastiness and contrariness from players. Players who come to events only to troll. The inevitable alarmist that runs in screaming "This is too dangerous!" I realize you have no control over whatever players decide to do, but you asked, so there you go.
If you feel someone is deliberately trolling or harassing, please consider reporting the issue. In many cases, it would also be appropriate to OOC something to them to the tune of "Please tone it down". We can and will intervene if someone is being intentionally and deliberately disruptive. But also note that in some cases, someone else confronting your character may be an appropriate response to what your character is proposing! Understand that everyone is coming at these events and the game proper from different angles -- what one person considers to be an acceptable set of actions may not be so to another person.
Some the player proposals or events are in point of fact extremely dangerous. Any response we do for these events is very likely going to be to the tune of "it goes as expected". It is important to remember that the existing guilds represent codified approaches to mastering these forces, the 'safest' approach, and deviating outside of these paths is typically the activity of extreme failure in the games history.
To use a potentially awkward example, think of it like humanities attempts at flight -- a lot of crashes happened before we figured out how to do it right, and a lot of very bizarre aircraft are today little more than entries into aviation history textbooks under the "Mistakes along the way" chapter. While we do not want to discourage players from proposing or trying things in the game lore, we do want to temper peoples expectations with the probability of success where the guild leadership has failed. Experiments and failures can be a great way for us to deliver more of the game lore to you, even if the event does not go as you intended! For example, some recent events with Traders gave us an opportunity to showcase some things about the Negotiants, even if the specific questions asked were not answered.
Remember, your character is a member of a guild of very talented experts who have built upon hundreds if not thousands of years of experience.
TK-421
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 10:59 AM CST
>> Is there a particular province you would like to see further explored?
Not especially, no. I just ask that if you're staging an event in Zoluren (which is perfectly fine) don't automatically set it within the walls of Crossing. If you're setting an event in Therengia please don't automatically default to Riverhaven or Theren.
>> With the JUSTICE updates, Necromancers are in some respects more able to operate in JUSTICE zones, albeit for a fixed period of time.
I've actually found it harder, not easier, to attend events post-changes. Yes, player-based accusations were problematic and prone to abuse. The system-based accusations, though, have moved to a mechanic where it becomes a question of when, not if, I'm going to have issues.
>> But yes, continuing to host events that are not in JUSTICE zones will facilitate Necromancer involvement.
This. I'm not asking to crash Temple events. I'm not trying to be disruptive towards other events. Rather, I'd be thrilled if there were more events -- not specifically tailored to/against Necromancers -- that I could just attend. If it's within justice I'm either (1) operating on a timer and under the threat of Suspicion, (2) hidden/invisible, which actually causes disruptions, due to how a handful of players react to stealth, or (3) sending a proxy.
Being a necromancer is a choice I made, and one I'm very happy about. But it means I have to run a cost benefit analysis on every single event on the calendar. More often than I'd like I'm intentionally avoiding events that I'd love to attend, because it's just not worth it.
- I
Not especially, no. I just ask that if you're staging an event in Zoluren (which is perfectly fine) don't automatically set it within the walls of Crossing. If you're setting an event in Therengia please don't automatically default to Riverhaven or Theren.
>> With the JUSTICE updates, Necromancers are in some respects more able to operate in JUSTICE zones, albeit for a fixed period of time.
I've actually found it harder, not easier, to attend events post-changes. Yes, player-based accusations were problematic and prone to abuse. The system-based accusations, though, have moved to a mechanic where it becomes a question of when, not if, I'm going to have issues.
>> But yes, continuing to host events that are not in JUSTICE zones will facilitate Necromancer involvement.
This. I'm not asking to crash Temple events. I'm not trying to be disruptive towards other events. Rather, I'd be thrilled if there were more events -- not specifically tailored to/against Necromancers -- that I could just attend. If it's within justice I'm either (1) operating on a timer and under the threat of Suspicion, (2) hidden/invisible, which actually causes disruptions, due to how a handful of players react to stealth, or (3) sending a proxy.
Being a necromancer is a choice I made, and one I'm very happy about. But it means I have to run a cost benefit analysis on every single event on the calendar. More often than I'd like I'm intentionally avoiding events that I'd love to attend, because it's just not worth it.
- I
ELIMIE
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 11:55 AM CST
Mostly my concerns are in relation to;
Communication, timing, circle ranges and locations.
Communication
I check the calendar daily to see what events and happenings that are going on and which I can fit into my schedule, sadly it's super hard for me due to living in Europe and how work falls out. (doing the day, sleeping at night and all)
So would be nice if big ticket stuff was clearly scheduled/communicated prior, instead of being dropped like bombs sometimes, I'm really looking at the "Oh hey! look super fancy swords will drop for the next few hours, happy hunting!" - Yes, I'm still grumpy over that...
Most of the time I only ever find out about stuff from "hanging with the right crowd", which rarely happens, or I find out about it after the whole ordeal is over. (Oh and in that regards, those summarising posts you do of events afterwards, THANK YOU!)
Would be nice say if there was a login msgs that said something like; "Dont forget the ending event at such and such! Open to all, see more info on the board here and such, or wiki or twitter or whichever" , or just something like "We'll be doing an RP event with GM interaction at such and such.."
Game wide notices are awesome too up to stuff happening, and gladly hours prior!
Also to add onto that, I'd love to see any kind of communication on where GM's actually did attend or assist. I know quite a few people are currently thinking; "Event team? whats that..." Would give some credit where credit is due..
Even just something like, "we loved the xyz event guys, happy to see it went great! Hope the gift fit, or sorry you died so much... etc"
Oh and I only just found out now, that the end to the spider event was open to all, I never knew that, would have loved to have attended that after all. Perhaps though I was living under a rock.. (never took part in the entire event as it was super expensive from my point of view)
Timing
As mentioned above, primetime and all... would be nice if perhaps there was something that could trickle down to the less busy times, like if there was some big invasion, that perhaps a smaller one happened doing later on... just a random wish.
Even just if there was an event GM that had odd hours, (or EU time for that matter..)
Circle ranges
I always just get this impression of whatever is happening that, that I in part shouldn't even bother, because everyone there would just kinda crush me, or the difficulty is too high, etc etc.
Not saying that is the case, but I that's just how I perceive things if nothing else is listed, so I loved it the few times I've seen or found out stuff is flexing to your level. (amazing thing!)
Location
Maybe make it more clear if something is open to F2P? I always just assume that if something doesn't say Zoluren on it somewhere, that it's a no go for anyone F2P.
Again, this may not be the case, but its the first thing I think of unless something else is listed, so again, would be nice if it it was highlighted that it was available to all!
(can we please get some In crossing invasions of smaller mobs! Come on, let the bard guild get overrun by rats, that'll teach em playing those darn flutes so much!)
Disclaimer:
I've only really been back since the Maelshyve event, which I'd loved to join in and do participate in, I just found I couldn't find any info on what it was, what it entailed, what I could do to assist etc. So the entire thing just kinda passed without me ever really finding out what it was about.
Loads of people are most likely going to argue and say I'm wrong in my above experiences, I just feel that if somebody like me that's got at-least half a foot into the game, seem unable to find some info, then how on earth would we ever get new people to stick around..
Oh and can we please get some updates on the front page?! The last news update was from the 10/29/2019, why wasn't there any fest annocements.. or event just a new years greeting? The whole game just looks dead if there is nothing happening on the front page. (I know this may be the wrong place to state this.. but it kinda ties in with events a little.)
Communication, timing, circle ranges and locations.
Communication
I check the calendar daily to see what events and happenings that are going on and which I can fit into my schedule, sadly it's super hard for me due to living in Europe and how work falls out. (doing the day, sleeping at night and all)
So would be nice if big ticket stuff was clearly scheduled/communicated prior, instead of being dropped like bombs sometimes, I'm really looking at the "Oh hey! look super fancy swords will drop for the next few hours, happy hunting!" - Yes, I'm still grumpy over that...
Most of the time I only ever find out about stuff from "hanging with the right crowd", which rarely happens, or I find out about it after the whole ordeal is over. (Oh and in that regards, those summarising posts you do of events afterwards, THANK YOU!)
Would be nice say if there was a login msgs that said something like; "Dont forget the ending event at such and such! Open to all, see more info on the board here and such, or wiki or twitter or whichever" , or just something like "We'll be doing an RP event with GM interaction at such and such.."
Game wide notices are awesome too up to stuff happening, and gladly hours prior!
Also to add onto that, I'd love to see any kind of communication on where GM's actually did attend or assist. I know quite a few people are currently thinking; "Event team? whats that..." Would give some credit where credit is due..
Even just something like, "we loved the xyz event guys, happy to see it went great! Hope the gift fit, or sorry you died so much... etc"
Oh and I only just found out now, that the end to the spider event was open to all, I never knew that, would have loved to have attended that after all. Perhaps though I was living under a rock.. (never took part in the entire event as it was super expensive from my point of view)
Timing
As mentioned above, primetime and all... would be nice if perhaps there was something that could trickle down to the less busy times, like if there was some big invasion, that perhaps a smaller one happened doing later on... just a random wish.
Even just if there was an event GM that had odd hours, (or EU time for that matter..)
Circle ranges
I always just get this impression of whatever is happening that, that I in part shouldn't even bother, because everyone there would just kinda crush me, or the difficulty is too high, etc etc.
Not saying that is the case, but I that's just how I perceive things if nothing else is listed, so I loved it the few times I've seen or found out stuff is flexing to your level. (amazing thing!)
Location
Maybe make it more clear if something is open to F2P? I always just assume that if something doesn't say Zoluren on it somewhere, that it's a no go for anyone F2P.
Again, this may not be the case, but its the first thing I think of unless something else is listed, so again, would be nice if it it was highlighted that it was available to all!
(can we please get some In crossing invasions of smaller mobs! Come on, let the bard guild get overrun by rats, that'll teach em playing those darn flutes so much!)
Disclaimer:
I've only really been back since the Maelshyve event, which I'd loved to join in and do participate in, I just found I couldn't find any info on what it was, what it entailed, what I could do to assist etc. So the entire thing just kinda passed without me ever really finding out what it was about.
Loads of people are most likely going to argue and say I'm wrong in my above experiences, I just feel that if somebody like me that's got at-least half a foot into the game, seem unable to find some info, then how on earth would we ever get new people to stick around..
Oh and can we please get some updates on the front page?! The last news update was from the 10/29/2019, why wasn't there any fest annocements.. or event just a new years greeting? The whole game just looks dead if there is nothing happening on the front page. (I know this may be the wrong place to state this.. but it kinda ties in with events a little.)
LAMBL
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 11:55 AM CST
Great topic, thanks for bringing it up.
Some things I like/am interested in and would like to see more of include:
1. Invasions and war-like events. Combat is obviously an enormous part of the game, and it's at its best when there's some story-centered context for it. These sorts of things also give the various militia (or similar) groups something to do, give the would-be defenders something to defend against, etc. These sorts of events can be either large- or small-scale, but it's always better when there's some story that unfolds rather than just "there's suddenly a billion pirates in Riverhaven for no apparent reason" or whatnot. Be careful about flooding out too many creatures per room though; it's better for both gameplay and storytelling when there's fewer, more challenging creatures involved (champions, etc). It's okay to dust off the barricades or similar war mechanics for smaller scale events once in a while; some siege that lasts a few days and then concludes would be interesting, for instance.
2. Disease outbreaks. The Consumption event leading into the release of P5 is one of my all-time favorites, and it's a massive shame that there haven't been more things along these lines.
3. Vela'tohr plants. It's always interesting to see stuff involving these, and I think there was some sort of story beginning to develop pertaining to the one in the Empath guild, cultivating more of them in more places, etc. I hope that can pick up and carry forward in some form.
4. The enmity between Necromancers and Life Itself, particularly from the perspective of Team Life. I feel like there's a great deal of untapped potential here, since anything involving Necromancer villains tends to devolve into gods vs. demons, or the holy vs. unholy angle of it. The whole point of Necromancy in the setting is that it's a subversion of and crime against Life, though, and there hasn't been much exploration into that side of it. I'll also note here that I'm personally not very interested in PvP, so if this can be approached without leaning too heavily on that it would be preferred. Maybe some sort of middleman can be incorporated so that both sides are engaging in PvE type activities or something? Obviously those who are interested in straight-up PvP could still go that route if they wanted.
5. Using the TASK system to make events "present" even at moments when the action isn't unfolding (I have a remarkable ability to not be logged in at the right moment...). Think recent Hollow Eve lead-in events here, but it would be awesome if there could be more story substance to the tasks themselves. Ideally, doing these tasks should award good experience (kind of like the Corn Maze Tasks do); gaining experience is obviously a massively important gameplay consideration in general, and it's a huge win when it can happen as a side-effect of doing some story-relevant activity. Bonus points if these can focus on some of the less-developed skills (like First Aid, Scholarship, First Aid, Appraisal, or First Aid).
Things I'm not so big on and would prefer to move away from, at least for a while:
1. Apocalypse scenarios. It feels like these are a bit too common, and I think it would be nice to step back and lower the stakes for a while. Sometimes the "threat" should just be a marauding band of pirates/orcs/goblins/adan'f/undead-of-the-day/whatever that's "merely" going to cause chaos and murder and economic disruption and whatnot.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
Some things I like/am interested in and would like to see more of include:
1. Invasions and war-like events. Combat is obviously an enormous part of the game, and it's at its best when there's some story-centered context for it. These sorts of things also give the various militia (or similar) groups something to do, give the would-be defenders something to defend against, etc. These sorts of events can be either large- or small-scale, but it's always better when there's some story that unfolds rather than just "there's suddenly a billion pirates in Riverhaven for no apparent reason" or whatnot. Be careful about flooding out too many creatures per room though; it's better for both gameplay and storytelling when there's fewer, more challenging creatures involved (champions, etc). It's okay to dust off the barricades or similar war mechanics for smaller scale events once in a while; some siege that lasts a few days and then concludes would be interesting, for instance.
2. Disease outbreaks. The Consumption event leading into the release of P5 is one of my all-time favorites, and it's a massive shame that there haven't been more things along these lines.
3. Vela'tohr plants. It's always interesting to see stuff involving these, and I think there was some sort of story beginning to develop pertaining to the one in the Empath guild, cultivating more of them in more places, etc. I hope that can pick up and carry forward in some form.
4. The enmity between Necromancers and Life Itself, particularly from the perspective of Team Life. I feel like there's a great deal of untapped potential here, since anything involving Necromancer villains tends to devolve into gods vs. demons, or the holy vs. unholy angle of it. The whole point of Necromancy in the setting is that it's a subversion of and crime against Life, though, and there hasn't been much exploration into that side of it. I'll also note here that I'm personally not very interested in PvP, so if this can be approached without leaning too heavily on that it would be preferred. Maybe some sort of middleman can be incorporated so that both sides are engaging in PvE type activities or something? Obviously those who are interested in straight-up PvP could still go that route if they wanted.
5. Using the TASK system to make events "present" even at moments when the action isn't unfolding (I have a remarkable ability to not be logged in at the right moment...). Think recent Hollow Eve lead-in events here, but it would be awesome if there could be more story substance to the tasks themselves. Ideally, doing these tasks should award good experience (kind of like the Corn Maze Tasks do); gaining experience is obviously a massively important gameplay consideration in general, and it's a huge win when it can happen as a side-effect of doing some story-relevant activity. Bonus points if these can focus on some of the less-developed skills (like First Aid, Scholarship, First Aid, Appraisal, or First Aid).
Things I'm not so big on and would prefer to move away from, at least for a while:
1. Apocalypse scenarios. It feels like these are a bit too common, and I think it would be nice to step back and lower the stakes for a while. Sometimes the "threat" should just be a marauding band of pirates/orcs/goblins/adan'f/undead-of-the-day/whatever that's "merely" going to cause chaos and murder and economic disruption and whatnot.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
NIKPACK
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 12:11 PM CST
<<<1. Apocalypse scenarios. It feels like these are a bit too common, and I think it would be nice to step back and lower the stakes for a while. Sometimes the "threat" should just be a marauding band of pirates/orcs/goblins/adan'f/undead-of-the-day/whatever that's "merely" going to cause chaos and murder and economic disruption and whatnot.
I have very fond memories of NPCs of this kind taunting the populace over the gweth. Nothing directed to a specific player or mean, more like "I'm coming for Wolf Clan and no one can stop me." That always got my attention.
Nikpack
I have very fond memories of NPCs of this kind taunting the populace over the gweth. Nothing directed to a specific player or mean, more like "I'm coming for Wolf Clan and no one can stop me." That always got my attention.
Nikpack
RHODGES232
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 12:38 PM CST
My biggest "got-cha" is to just finish the events, not saying we need short daily events or immediate completion of a said event, but just finish them out in a timely manner. The paladins had a really neat event going for them that just... Stopped. and there are a couple other events that seem to have no ending or GMPC's that aren't seen anymore. But yeah, more events are nice.
MULLERY1
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 03:19 PM CST
A couple of thing that would be nice. One was hit on already is yes location. I'd love to see some things happen in Shard, as that is where Z and Agalea reside and would be more apt to let's say help if something were happening in that province. Not always depending on the rp but maybe. The second thing is, I myself have written and delivered many we will call them 'letters' to a certain Lord guildleader and while I know nothing much will come from them when it comes to him, unless something is changing, some sort of acknowledgement that they were gotten would let me know that they were not in vain. Now I'm not saying a huge anything or anything world breaking but a thought to the head, a feeling passing over, you know just a little something. I haven't done one in a while mainly because rp wise in the last one Z may or may not have told that Lord guildleader off but, doesn't mean I won't write more.
Z
I don't feel that I need to explain my art to you, Warren.
Z
I don't feel that I need to explain my art to you, Warren.
ELWYNN
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 04:25 PM CST
>> Do you have any suggestions or ideas for how to make these things [lore] more discoverable or accessible? More lore posts to the forums, per your later suggestion?
I think it would be nice if the Events Team and the Lore Team made more use of bardic recall, the rumor system, NPCs who give more information, and expanding the library section, or even making rare books only available in MT events.
There is a lot of lore posted in the forums, such as Armifer discussing the nature of the Moon Mage sects. While we have been told that it is ok to bring lore from the forums into the game, it would give characters more credibility if that lore was available in-game, instead of available only on the forums. Many people do not see forums as in-character. However, I know that the desire for lore is not the only concern of the Events team and I don't want to derail this topic of yours because it is a great topic to discuss.
I think it would be nice if the Events Team and the Lore Team made more use of bardic recall, the rumor system, NPCs who give more information, and expanding the library section, or even making rare books only available in MT events.
There is a lot of lore posted in the forums, such as Armifer discussing the nature of the Moon Mage sects. While we have been told that it is ok to bring lore from the forums into the game, it would give characters more credibility if that lore was available in-game, instead of available only on the forums. Many people do not see forums as in-character. However, I know that the desire for lore is not the only concern of the Events team and I don't want to derail this topic of yours because it is a great topic to discuss.
LENAEA
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 05:16 PM CST
> If you feel someone is deliberately trolling or harassing, please consider reporting the issue.
mmmmmm...... that never really works out for anyone involved. I appreciate what you're trying to say, though.
> But also note that in some cases, someone else confronting your character may be an appropriate response to what your character is proposing! Understand that everyone is coming at these events and the game proper from different angles -- what one person considers to be an acceptable set of actions may not be so to another person.
I get that. My beef is with the people whose RP consists of "I am against whatever you are doing no matter what it is because I don't like you, therefore whatever you are doing is dangerous and bad." And then those same people turn around and participate in *eerily similar* events led by other guilds, or they even lead those kinds events, themselves.
> Experiments and failures can be a great way for us to deliver more of the game lore to you, even if the event does not go as you intended! For example, some recent events with Traders gave us an opportunity to showcase some things about the Negotiants, even if the specific questions asked were not answered.
I was heavily involved in those Negotiant events. I'm quite grateful that we learned something even if we're a bit puzzled about what that something is. I'd like to see more GM involvement in that vein. Those of us who send in detailed plans for events always hope that at least something will happen, especially when we have oodles of sources and lore to justify what we're doing. Seeing just one line of yellow text is extraordinarily gratifying.
mmmmmm...... that never really works out for anyone involved. I appreciate what you're trying to say, though.
> But also note that in some cases, someone else confronting your character may be an appropriate response to what your character is proposing! Understand that everyone is coming at these events and the game proper from different angles -- what one person considers to be an acceptable set of actions may not be so to another person.
I get that. My beef is with the people whose RP consists of "I am against whatever you are doing no matter what it is because I don't like you, therefore whatever you are doing is dangerous and bad." And then those same people turn around and participate in *eerily similar* events led by other guilds, or they even lead those kinds events, themselves.
> Experiments and failures can be a great way for us to deliver more of the game lore to you, even if the event does not go as you intended! For example, some recent events with Traders gave us an opportunity to showcase some things about the Negotiants, even if the specific questions asked were not answered.
I was heavily involved in those Negotiant events. I'm quite grateful that we learned something even if we're a bit puzzled about what that something is. I'd like to see more GM involvement in that vein. Those of us who send in detailed plans for events always hope that at least something will happen, especially when we have oodles of sources and lore to justify what we're doing. Seeing just one line of yellow text is extraordinarily gratifying.
DR-KOROR
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 07:47 PM CST
ELIMIE --
>Communication
We can and will continue to try our best to put things on the calendar, and make use of lead-ins and multiple forms of announcements to alert people to both upcoming and ongoing events. That said, please understand that this is still a multiplayer game -- if you feel lost or uncertain about what is happening, maybe someone else can help! As to the issue of multiple timezones, this one is tricky and simply doesn't have an easy solution.
>Circle Ranges
Invasions are only one form of event we utilize. In the past, we have been told invasions are boring, as they tend to be 'x critter shows up, some people can't handle them, some people kill them, this goes on for a while and then stops'. We also seemingly regularly get complaints that invasions 'interrupt my ability to play the game'. Recently, I got to watch a GM play a Pyromaniac Goblin that was insulting players in Crossing, and a few people showed up to fight him. It seemed like a lot of fun!
LAMBL --
>Invasions and war-like events.
Mwa ha ha...
The rest of your suggestions are good and things we can and will keep in mind.
With respect to making events that are responsive to player action, I want to share the following -
One of the most entertaining things about crafting events is trying to have contingencies planned for when things do not go according to plan. And then, seeing how poorly you planned for just how 'not according to plan' the event turns out, and quickly scrambling to respond to the new and wild thing players did.
>...involving Necromancer villains tends to devolve into gods vs. demons, or the holy vs. unholy angle of it. The whole point of Necromancy in the setting is that it's a subversion of and crime against Life...
At the risk of getting side tracked, I would say that all those things are inextricably linked. They are able to be discussed and analyzed separately, but they are all related.
MULLERY1 --
>...'letters' to a certain Lord guildleader and while I know nothing much will come from them when it comes to him, unless something is changing, some sort of acknowledgement that they were gotten would let me know that they were not in vain...
When that guild leader was first revealed, a number of people did mini-events around him, and received responses. Over time, we cooled off on these. Please understand that emailing into events with IC thoughts/positions/petitions/letters is a great way to let us know what your character is thinking, but is not something that we regularly make a habit of responding to in the form of email or guild leader responses. As events surrounding that guild leader have unfolded, we have considered different players actions and positions and responded accordingly where appropriate. As I mentioned, we appreciate players letting us know what their characters are doing or thinking, as it helps us better understand motivations and actions. Your letters were not in vain!
ELWYNN --
>I think it would be nice if the Events Team and the Lore Team made more use of bardic recall, the rumor system, NPCs who give more information, and expanding the library section, or even making rare books only available in MT events.
All of these are great suggestions. Bardic Recall for example is a system I have wanted to take a look at for some time, but simply have not had the bandwidth to do so. Remember that players can submit rumors!
To your last point, while I appreciate the sentiment of wanting more IG books, I personally do not plan on putting lore behind paywalls, at least not permanently. If you meant as an early reveal during the MT event, then that would be fine.
>Communication
We can and will continue to try our best to put things on the calendar, and make use of lead-ins and multiple forms of announcements to alert people to both upcoming and ongoing events. That said, please understand that this is still a multiplayer game -- if you feel lost or uncertain about what is happening, maybe someone else can help! As to the issue of multiple timezones, this one is tricky and simply doesn't have an easy solution.
>Circle Ranges
Invasions are only one form of event we utilize. In the past, we have been told invasions are boring, as they tend to be 'x critter shows up, some people can't handle them, some people kill them, this goes on for a while and then stops'. We also seemingly regularly get complaints that invasions 'interrupt my ability to play the game'. Recently, I got to watch a GM play a Pyromaniac Goblin that was insulting players in Crossing, and a few people showed up to fight him. It seemed like a lot of fun!
LAMBL --
>Invasions and war-like events.
Mwa ha ha...
The rest of your suggestions are good and things we can and will keep in mind.
With respect to making events that are responsive to player action, I want to share the following -
One of the most entertaining things about crafting events is trying to have contingencies planned for when things do not go according to plan. And then, seeing how poorly you planned for just how 'not according to plan' the event turns out, and quickly scrambling to respond to the new and wild thing players did.
>...involving Necromancer villains tends to devolve into gods vs. demons, or the holy vs. unholy angle of it. The whole point of Necromancy in the setting is that it's a subversion of and crime against Life...
At the risk of getting side tracked, I would say that all those things are inextricably linked. They are able to be discussed and analyzed separately, but they are all related.
MULLERY1 --
>...'letters' to a certain Lord guildleader and while I know nothing much will come from them when it comes to him, unless something is changing, some sort of acknowledgement that they were gotten would let me know that they were not in vain...
When that guild leader was first revealed, a number of people did mini-events around him, and received responses. Over time, we cooled off on these. Please understand that emailing into events with IC thoughts/positions/petitions/letters is a great way to let us know what your character is thinking, but is not something that we regularly make a habit of responding to in the form of email or guild leader responses. As events surrounding that guild leader have unfolded, we have considered different players actions and positions and responded accordingly where appropriate. As I mentioned, we appreciate players letting us know what their characters are doing or thinking, as it helps us better understand motivations and actions. Your letters were not in vain!
ELWYNN --
>I think it would be nice if the Events Team and the Lore Team made more use of bardic recall, the rumor system, NPCs who give more information, and expanding the library section, or even making rare books only available in MT events.
All of these are great suggestions. Bardic Recall for example is a system I have wanted to take a look at for some time, but simply have not had the bandwidth to do so. Remember that players can submit rumors!
To your last point, while I appreciate the sentiment of wanting more IG books, I personally do not plan on putting lore behind paywalls, at least not permanently. If you meant as an early reveal during the MT event, then that would be fine.
SAUVA
Re: Events and you!
02/17/2020 08:36 PM CST
I'm excited about the prospect of more GM initiated/driven events! Thanks for engaging this thread.
I'd like to see more events finish with the players being the heroes (but I'm not the one that will be the target of the "favoritism" hatemail). I'd also like to see PCs be responsible for discovering something. There are PCs out there that have ground out thousands of ranks over the course of multiple decades, and done years of IC and OOC research. Throw those players that have dedicate this much time to a text game from last century a bone now and again.
I'd like to see more events that actually conclude. Nothing takes the wind out of your sails faster than epic stories that die when a GM leaves staff.
I'd like to see more little things:
Animate a Guild leader for 10 minuets.
Jump into Jackwater and rob someone.
Build a bridge when you say you're going to (looking at you Theren).
Bring back the royals, the ambassadors, and the court intrigue.
Clean up trash from a war that happened 80 years ago from room descriptions.
In general, make the world seem less stagnant.
~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea
I'd like to see more events finish with the players being the heroes (but I'm not the one that will be the target of the "favoritism" hatemail). I'd also like to see PCs be responsible for discovering something. There are PCs out there that have ground out thousands of ranks over the course of multiple decades, and done years of IC and OOC research. Throw those players that have dedicate this much time to a text game from last century a bone now and again.
I'd like to see more events that actually conclude. Nothing takes the wind out of your sails faster than epic stories that die when a GM leaves staff.
I'd like to see more little things:
Animate a Guild leader for 10 minuets.
Jump into Jackwater and rob someone.
Build a bridge when you say you're going to (looking at you Theren).
Bring back the royals, the ambassadors, and the court intrigue.
Clean up trash from a war that happened 80 years ago from room descriptions.
In general, make the world seem less stagnant.
~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea
ENOTS
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 06:56 AM CST
FWIW, I had great fun when a few friends and I went on a sort-of quest to try to find Lanival, or Shadow Clan. We never succeeded, but we found some really interesting pieces of old lore. We tripped over a bunch of information about sorcery and necromancy too, though both have since been updated and become live Things.
Ryeka
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Ryeka
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
LOCUTIS1
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 08:14 AM CST
>> Great topic, thanks for bringing it up.
This
And also, this initially is going to sound a tad snarky, and please i assure you, it is not meant to come off that way, just a sentiment of mine, and i don't think im the only one who is feeling this.
You guys have been promising RP for quite some time now, even at last 'state of elanthia' words were spoken and nothing seems to be done in regards to what was proposed? hinted at? or suggested as toward a possibility. While i know there has been some small happenings and the Maelshyve shindig, these were primarily player organized events. Not the type of GM run events where us as players are welcomed into and are fully pulled onto stage from a story line.
Again, i dont mean that as snark, but an expression of a frustration i have had with DragonRealms in the last 2 years? Ive been back.
A couple of points ide like to raise as a player regarding events.
With the player base being so condensed with a smaller population and even more so with social media like discord, plot narratives can be interrupted, misused or even forgotten with the OOC content that goes into our characters these days. This cannot be seen more evident with Necromancers and how commonly they are accepted by not just the players, but Provincial orders as a whole.
The absence of the random appearance of GMPC's to nudge, remind or even direct our players and RP adds a proverbial "full stop" to any lore or basis on how the stereo typical elanthian would morally or intellectually behave.
Wishing to advocate for the good and the evil, this isn't good o'l hansom Riffy doing his necro bashing here, I fully appreciate our bad guys, i would just like to see them come back from how watered down they have become. Especially the perverse and to a 'slightly' lesser extent the Philosopher. And in turn the player base to respect them for the RP evil they are in the game environment and lore.
I was very accustomed to seeing Constanze and Salvur appearing at the Empath guild, Maghana appearing around crossing, Gauthus at the war mage guild, and take your pick of any of Quarrels GMPC's randomly appearing around Therengia, and Coenrad stepping out of the shadows as soon as you mentioned what a jerk Gyfford was, no matter what province you were in.
I could mention other randoms i had bumped into in my time of playing, but with reference to.....
>> What do you want to see more or less of?
This kind of stuff goes a long way to making us players feel a part of a world. It provides some friendly worth while banter, sets a tone for a discussion and can help strengthen LORE and give players who are asking questions or seeking answers a valuable and unquestionable basis for LORE fact. Added to that, it always bring the players running and help build a in game community.
>> What events or areas or other lore are most exciting to you?
I would like to see a return of a conflict plot lines, that sets you to pick a side, without going against the Immortals as with Necromancy. Something that sets you to decide on your own morals and values but is still argued within morality or even race. I would like to see the return of the Children of Kalestraum as an example or and inter-provincial fracas something along the lines of L'Karm with racial over tones and border invasions. Something that not only helps us to explore our province history but our own and other race and heritage.
Within this there can be a clear setting for those that wish all or either of PvP, PvE or neither of the two.
A note on town invasions. Again, a way of bringing people together was invasions. The setting up of Triages, town scouting etc this was very notable in the ORB charging events in the Lyras wars and the triages in the Sorrow/Lyras and Elpalzi wars.
more than likely i'll have more to say.
But, I'll end with, Thank you for addressing this Koror lets hope we get things moving.
Rifkinn
This
And also, this initially is going to sound a tad snarky, and please i assure you, it is not meant to come off that way, just a sentiment of mine, and i don't think im the only one who is feeling this.
You guys have been promising RP for quite some time now, even at last 'state of elanthia' words were spoken and nothing seems to be done in regards to what was proposed? hinted at? or suggested as toward a possibility. While i know there has been some small happenings and the Maelshyve shindig, these were primarily player organized events. Not the type of GM run events where us as players are welcomed into and are fully pulled onto stage from a story line.
Again, i dont mean that as snark, but an expression of a frustration i have had with DragonRealms in the last 2 years? Ive been back.
A couple of points ide like to raise as a player regarding events.
With the player base being so condensed with a smaller population and even more so with social media like discord, plot narratives can be interrupted, misused or even forgotten with the OOC content that goes into our characters these days. This cannot be seen more evident with Necromancers and how commonly they are accepted by not just the players, but Provincial orders as a whole.
The absence of the random appearance of GMPC's to nudge, remind or even direct our players and RP adds a proverbial "full stop" to any lore or basis on how the stereo typical elanthian would morally or intellectually behave.
Wishing to advocate for the good and the evil, this isn't good o'l hansom Riffy doing his necro bashing here, I fully appreciate our bad guys, i would just like to see them come back from how watered down they have become. Especially the perverse and to a 'slightly' lesser extent the Philosopher. And in turn the player base to respect them for the RP evil they are in the game environment and lore.
I was very accustomed to seeing Constanze and Salvur appearing at the Empath guild, Maghana appearing around crossing, Gauthus at the war mage guild, and take your pick of any of Quarrels GMPC's randomly appearing around Therengia, and Coenrad stepping out of the shadows as soon as you mentioned what a jerk Gyfford was, no matter what province you were in.
I could mention other randoms i had bumped into in my time of playing, but with reference to.....
>> What do you want to see more or less of?
This kind of stuff goes a long way to making us players feel a part of a world. It provides some friendly worth while banter, sets a tone for a discussion and can help strengthen LORE and give players who are asking questions or seeking answers a valuable and unquestionable basis for LORE fact. Added to that, it always bring the players running and help build a in game community.
>> What events or areas or other lore are most exciting to you?
I would like to see a return of a conflict plot lines, that sets you to pick a side, without going against the Immortals as with Necromancy. Something that sets you to decide on your own morals and values but is still argued within morality or even race. I would like to see the return of the Children of Kalestraum as an example or and inter-provincial fracas something along the lines of L'Karm with racial over tones and border invasions. Something that not only helps us to explore our province history but our own and other race and heritage.
Within this there can be a clear setting for those that wish all or either of PvP, PvE or neither of the two.
A note on town invasions. Again, a way of bringing people together was invasions. The setting up of Triages, town scouting etc this was very notable in the ORB charging events in the Lyras wars and the triages in the Sorrow/Lyras and Elpalzi wars.
more than likely i'll have more to say.
But, I'll end with, Thank you for addressing this Koror lets hope we get things moving.
Rifkinn
DR-KOROR
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 10:16 AM CST
SAUVA:
>I'd like to see more events finish with the players being the heroes (but I'm not the one that will be the target of the "favoritism" hatemail). I'd also like to see PCs be responsible for discovering something. There are PCs out there that have ground out thousands of ranks over the course of multiple decades, and done years of IC and OOC research. Throw those players that have dedicate this much time to a text game from last century a bone now and again.
Do you have suggestions for ways to place players as the heroes, within the context of this still being a multiplayer game?
With respect to ranks, while I think we want to provide challenges to players, I personally do not want engaging with ongoing stories to always be gated by ranks. There are of course dangerous things and a very inexperienced character should not expect to confront some of these things without risk, but I also do not want to see a situation where people feel they cannot engage with a story because the dragon hunting mission requires a minimum of 1500+ ranks or you spontaneously combust. I recall a regular complaint in the past has been that events are boring because they just result in a super powerful GMPC or enemy showing up, the games few top dogs whittling it down over time, and eventually it dies and the event is over, and so we have tried to design events that approach the narrative differently. Flex creatures may be a good middle ground, I will do some looking into what is possible there.
ENOTS:
>FWIW, I had great fun when a few friends and I went on a sort-of quest to try to find Lanival, or Shadow Clan. We never succeeded, but we found some really interesting pieces of old lore. We tripped over a bunch of information about sorcery and necromancy too, though both have since been updated and become live Things.
That sounds fun! I am often surprised at the stuff I stumble across, having run past it for years without noticing.
LOCUTIS1:
>... some small happenings and the Maelshyve shindig, these were primarily player organized events. Not the type of GM run events where us as players are welcomed into and are fully pulled onto stage from a story line.
As someone who worked for a long time on the Maelshyve Event, I want to clarify something, and I want to do so in a way that I hope does not merely come off as being defensive of the thing I worked on - this was a pretty large undertaking, and it was not merely a player organized event. It was something that we put a lot of initiative into, and also ensured that players felt plugged in wherever possible by very actively reaching out to them for inclusion and leadership in the event. We utilized multiple GMPCs to engage with multiple factions of people, and players very actively were welcomed onto the center stage, and in point of fact, were given the devices to implant and activate. Some players chose to be active drivers of the event and we engaged with them. Some players chose to actively work against the event, and we tried to make it feasible for them to do so. Some players decided that demons and Necromancy were not for them, and chose to sit it out, and that was their choice as well.
I do not mean to write all this as a defense of the thing I contributed to (which had numerous flaws and shortcomings!), but rather, to clarify some things about it.
>...this was very notable in the ORB charging events in the Lyras wars...
The device charging mechanism during the Maelshyve Event as a means for gating progress was an idea we borrowed directly from the orb charging portion of the Lyras War, for example. We hoped it would allow players of all walks to have a point of engagement, which is why we required all mana types, as well as vitality, spirit, concentration, and fatigue. While we made the rooms that had the devices no combat rooms, we also threw a good number of secondary events a few rooms away to try and entice people to investigate, and if they wanted, engage in combat, though we could have done more of this.
>With the player base being so condensed with a smaller population and even more so with social media like discord, plot narratives can be interrupted, misused or even forgotten with the OOC content that goes into our characters these days. This cannot be seen more evident with Necromancers and how commonly they are accepted by not just the players, but Provincial orders as a whole.
While we cannot control how players utilize out of game communication platforms to form relationships or organize for events, how characters choose to respond to the lore is up to them, and the lore has always supported both vitriolic hatred and acceptance of Necromancers. There has always been very intentional ambiguity baked into these matters. However, I hope people are able to separate their characters views from their players views, and remember that we are all playing this game together!
>The absence of the random appearance of GMPC's to nudge, remind or even direct our players and RP adds a proverbial "full stop" to any lore or basis on how the stereo typical elanthian would morally or intellectually behave.
We occasionally use Kssarh to remind players that the gweths are public! Maybe we should start doing that even more regularly :)
On a serious note though, even the inclusion of a GMPC opining on lore does not necessarily provide a clear cut answer as to what is going on in that aspect of the lore, as GMPCs themselves are characters with biases and opinions. What one GMPC definitively states is a fact may just be their impression of the fact. Some GMPCs are liars. Others are idiots. They may certainly have more insight into lore elements, but even they are fallible, or even sometimes wrong. The same is true for in game books.
>Wishing to advocate for the good and the evil, this isn't good o'l hansom Riffy doing his necro bashing here, I fully appreciate our bad guys, i would just like to see them come back from how watered down they have become. Especially the perverse and to a 'slightly' lesser extent the Philosopher. And in turn the player base to respect them for the RP evil they are in the game environment and lore.
The lore has always explored, and will continue to explore, the ambiguities that exist and the realities of the dangers of various forces that are meddled with. Just last week, for example, a group of adventurers attempted a raid on Basalt Isle, and three GMPCs were utilized. These are all events that tie into the greater arc of things. Can you clarify what you would like to see more of with respect to this side of the lore?
> Again, a way of bringing people together was invasions.
Invasions are a mixed bag, similar to 'boss characters' -- people either love them or hate them. We see people complain regularly that invasions are meaningless and boring, and something they simply ignore. Do you have suggestions for how to make these more engaging?
It seems that a common desire is to have more engagement from existing GMPCs, even if just for casual discussion or chats. Is there a particular chunk of topics people are interested in, or mostly just to feel that the guild leaders or other GMPCs are dynamic and doing stuff? For example, I do not think anyone really wants to get tea with Kssarh.
Should these events be spontaneous, or announced ahead of time on the calendar and/or via in game announcements?
I am currently waiting to hear from some more players in this thread before asking some additional questions.
>I'd like to see more events finish with the players being the heroes (but I'm not the one that will be the target of the "favoritism" hatemail). I'd also like to see PCs be responsible for discovering something. There are PCs out there that have ground out thousands of ranks over the course of multiple decades, and done years of IC and OOC research. Throw those players that have dedicate this much time to a text game from last century a bone now and again.
Do you have suggestions for ways to place players as the heroes, within the context of this still being a multiplayer game?
With respect to ranks, while I think we want to provide challenges to players, I personally do not want engaging with ongoing stories to always be gated by ranks. There are of course dangerous things and a very inexperienced character should not expect to confront some of these things without risk, but I also do not want to see a situation where people feel they cannot engage with a story because the dragon hunting mission requires a minimum of 1500+ ranks or you spontaneously combust. I recall a regular complaint in the past has been that events are boring because they just result in a super powerful GMPC or enemy showing up, the games few top dogs whittling it down over time, and eventually it dies and the event is over, and so we have tried to design events that approach the narrative differently. Flex creatures may be a good middle ground, I will do some looking into what is possible there.
ENOTS:
>FWIW, I had great fun when a few friends and I went on a sort-of quest to try to find Lanival, or Shadow Clan. We never succeeded, but we found some really interesting pieces of old lore. We tripped over a bunch of information about sorcery and necromancy too, though both have since been updated and become live Things.
That sounds fun! I am often surprised at the stuff I stumble across, having run past it for years without noticing.
LOCUTIS1:
>... some small happenings and the Maelshyve shindig, these were primarily player organized events. Not the type of GM run events where us as players are welcomed into and are fully pulled onto stage from a story line.
As someone who worked for a long time on the Maelshyve Event, I want to clarify something, and I want to do so in a way that I hope does not merely come off as being defensive of the thing I worked on - this was a pretty large undertaking, and it was not merely a player organized event. It was something that we put a lot of initiative into, and also ensured that players felt plugged in wherever possible by very actively reaching out to them for inclusion and leadership in the event. We utilized multiple GMPCs to engage with multiple factions of people, and players very actively were welcomed onto the center stage, and in point of fact, were given the devices to implant and activate. Some players chose to be active drivers of the event and we engaged with them. Some players chose to actively work against the event, and we tried to make it feasible for them to do so. Some players decided that demons and Necromancy were not for them, and chose to sit it out, and that was their choice as well.
I do not mean to write all this as a defense of the thing I contributed to (which had numerous flaws and shortcomings!), but rather, to clarify some things about it.
>...this was very notable in the ORB charging events in the Lyras wars...
The device charging mechanism during the Maelshyve Event as a means for gating progress was an idea we borrowed directly from the orb charging portion of the Lyras War, for example. We hoped it would allow players of all walks to have a point of engagement, which is why we required all mana types, as well as vitality, spirit, concentration, and fatigue. While we made the rooms that had the devices no combat rooms, we also threw a good number of secondary events a few rooms away to try and entice people to investigate, and if they wanted, engage in combat, though we could have done more of this.
>With the player base being so condensed with a smaller population and even more so with social media like discord, plot narratives can be interrupted, misused or even forgotten with the OOC content that goes into our characters these days. This cannot be seen more evident with Necromancers and how commonly they are accepted by not just the players, but Provincial orders as a whole.
While we cannot control how players utilize out of game communication platforms to form relationships or organize for events, how characters choose to respond to the lore is up to them, and the lore has always supported both vitriolic hatred and acceptance of Necromancers. There has always been very intentional ambiguity baked into these matters. However, I hope people are able to separate their characters views from their players views, and remember that we are all playing this game together!
>The absence of the random appearance of GMPC's to nudge, remind or even direct our players and RP adds a proverbial "full stop" to any lore or basis on how the stereo typical elanthian would morally or intellectually behave.
We occasionally use Kssarh to remind players that the gweths are public! Maybe we should start doing that even more regularly :)
On a serious note though, even the inclusion of a GMPC opining on lore does not necessarily provide a clear cut answer as to what is going on in that aspect of the lore, as GMPCs themselves are characters with biases and opinions. What one GMPC definitively states is a fact may just be their impression of the fact. Some GMPCs are liars. Others are idiots. They may certainly have more insight into lore elements, but even they are fallible, or even sometimes wrong. The same is true for in game books.
>Wishing to advocate for the good and the evil, this isn't good o'l hansom Riffy doing his necro bashing here, I fully appreciate our bad guys, i would just like to see them come back from how watered down they have become. Especially the perverse and to a 'slightly' lesser extent the Philosopher. And in turn the player base to respect them for the RP evil they are in the game environment and lore.
The lore has always explored, and will continue to explore, the ambiguities that exist and the realities of the dangers of various forces that are meddled with. Just last week, for example, a group of adventurers attempted a raid on Basalt Isle, and three GMPCs were utilized. These are all events that tie into the greater arc of things. Can you clarify what you would like to see more of with respect to this side of the lore?
> Again, a way of bringing people together was invasions.
Invasions are a mixed bag, similar to 'boss characters' -- people either love them or hate them. We see people complain regularly that invasions are meaningless and boring, and something they simply ignore. Do you have suggestions for how to make these more engaging?
It seems that a common desire is to have more engagement from existing GMPCs, even if just for casual discussion or chats. Is there a particular chunk of topics people are interested in, or mostly just to feel that the guild leaders or other GMPCs are dynamic and doing stuff? For example, I do not think anyone really wants to get tea with Kssarh.
Should these events be spontaneous, or announced ahead of time on the calendar and/or via in game announcements?
I am currently waiting to hear from some more players in this thread before asking some additional questions.
LAMBL
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 11:40 AM CST
<<Flex creatures may be a good middle ground, I will do some looking into what is possible there.>>
This bit was in response to someone else, but I have an opinion on it that I'd like to share. If you do go down that road, please try to do it in a way that still acknowledges that more highly skilled characters are more capable and are, in fact, doing something more difficult than the lower level guy who's fighting the exact same thing just flexed lower. Basically, make it still feel like ranks matter (because they should). Maybe the creature's adjective depends on what level it's flexed to or something. Personally I'd prefer to see a spread of different creature difficulties instead of flex creatures.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
This bit was in response to someone else, but I have an opinion on it that I'd like to share. If you do go down that road, please try to do it in a way that still acknowledges that more highly skilled characters are more capable and are, in fact, doing something more difficult than the lower level guy who's fighting the exact same thing just flexed lower. Basically, make it still feel like ranks matter (because they should). Maybe the creature's adjective depends on what level it's flexed to or something. Personally I'd prefer to see a spread of different creature difficulties instead of flex creatures.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
DR-KOROR
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 12:12 PM CST
Unless I am mistaken, or there are multiple types of flex mechanics, I understand that flex creatures respond per action, so would effectively represent the same degree of challenge to each character. The purpose of using flex creatures would be to provide the same challenge to everyone irrespective of ranks. If you want higher ranked characters to be more recognized or capable, using flexed creatures is not a good approach to doing so, as they do not 'flex to the first player interacting with them and then remain set to that skill level'.
Using a spread of different creature difficulties is something we try and do during invasions, though things can get fairly chaotic!
LESLIEC
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 01:23 PM CST
Good to know you want input from players.
One thing I would suggest is to make things a bit more realistic as far as planned events if you can.
A couple of examples come to mind from many years ago. When the Gorbash were invading I was on M'riss, but there was no indication of an invasion fleet was looming, no shadows of the fleet from over the horizon or ships coming into land and off load troops and supplies. Boom they were just there with large forts appearing overnight, no driving of pilings into the sand or cracking up of boulders to level forts and so on. It takes time to set up things when you are invading a hostile shore and then you have to make sure you're not driven off before you have a foothold.
My family is in construction, so I know a bit about this. In fact one of my grandfathers was the foreman in charge of pouring some of the most massive structures known.
Sorry if this came off as a rant, but if you make things appear overnight with no chance for us players to re-act and possibly change the way things happen, people resent it.
One thing I would suggest is to make things a bit more realistic as far as planned events if you can.
A couple of examples come to mind from many years ago. When the Gorbash were invading I was on M'riss, but there was no indication of an invasion fleet was looming, no shadows of the fleet from over the horizon or ships coming into land and off load troops and supplies. Boom they were just there with large forts appearing overnight, no driving of pilings into the sand or cracking up of boulders to level forts and so on. It takes time to set up things when you are invading a hostile shore and then you have to make sure you're not driven off before you have a foothold.
My family is in construction, so I know a bit about this. In fact one of my grandfathers was the foreman in charge of pouring some of the most massive structures known.
Sorry if this came off as a rant, but if you make things appear overnight with no chance for us players to re-act and possibly change the way things happen, people resent it.
LENAEA
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 01:58 PM CST
>It seems that a common desire is to have more engagement from existing GMPCs, even if just for casual discussion or chats. Is there a particular chunk of topics people are interested in, or mostly just to feel that the guild leaders or other GMPCs are dynamic and doing stuff? For example, I do not think anyone really wants to get tea with Kssarh.
I will absolutely have tea with Kssarh.
SAUVA
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 02:12 PM CST
| >I'd like to see more events finish with the players being the heroes (but I'm not the one that will be the target of the "favoritism" hatemail). I'd also like to see PCs be responsible for discovering something. There are PCs out there that have ground out thousands of ranks over the course of multiple decades, and done years of IC and OOC research. Throw those players that have dedicate this much time to a text game from last century a bone now and again. |
| Do you have suggestions for ways to place players as the heroes, within the context of this still being a multiplayer game? |
I don't see why a player couldn't have been the one to strike the final blow on Maelshyve. Was it really necessary to simply script the death of the spider (sure it had to die, so why not let us kill it)? Why couldn't a 200th circle thief have been the first one to devise a plan to break into homes for the release of B&E (<3 B&E btw)? Why can't Perune and his band of planar researchers be the ones that discover the next warmage spell?
I'm sure the answer to most of those specifics is "we don't have the GM resources". But hopefully that's changing and can drive thoughts for future opportunities where GMs set up individuals and small groups of PCs to write themselves into the annals of elanthipedia history. I don't think all events should end with a single PC being the lauded hero, but I'm struggling to recall even a single one in recent history where I can say "Alice will always be remembered for that time she single handedly changed Elanthia."
| With respect to ranks, while I think we want to provide challenges to players, I personally do not want engaging with ongoing stories to always be gated by ranks. There are of course dangerous things and a very inexperienced character should not expect to confront some of these things without risk, but I also do not want to see a situation where people feel they cannot engage with a story because the dragon hunting mission requires a minimum of 1500+ ranks or you spontaneously combust. I recall a regular complaint in the past has been that events are boring because they just result in a super powerful GMPC or enemy showing up, the games few top dogs whittling it down over time, and eventually it dies and the event is over, and so we have tried to design events that approach the narrative differently. Flex creatures may be a good middle ground, I will do some looking into what is possible there. |
Broadly I agree. I certainly don't want every event to be rank gated, but I think maybe we've swung a bit too far in the other direction. It's ok that sometimes the big baddy isn't flex and yes you're going to need to be a mid-game character (150+) to hang with them. The reverse is also true. Some of the most fun invasions I remember were silly things like pie-rats with maybe 100 ranks in combats.
It's also not all about evasion and heavy thrown either. What about a challenge that requires foraging a rare flower (sub 1250 outdoorsmanship need not apply)? Where's the call for "we need a bard with maxed out bardic lore to recall history here for the clue we need!" And on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, this is why I'm asking for courts to make a return. I was an ambassador once and never used a rank of anything in that position.
Essentially I can boil this question of "what do you want from GM driven RP" down to a single word answer.
More.
Loving the engagement here. This is a great start to the kind of "more" I want to see :D
~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea
SAUVA
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 02:13 PM CST
>mostly just to feel that the guild leaders or other GMPCs are dynamic and doing stuff?
Just doing day-to-day guild stuff sounds like a great place to start. Not everything has to be a world changing event.
>Should these events be spontaneous, or announced ahead of time on the calendar and/or via in game announcements?
Do both! If we can't have both, plan stuff and put it on the calendar.
~Hunter Hanryu
>Everything Rangers have is just a lame version of something cool.~Morkim
Just doing day-to-day guild stuff sounds like a great place to start. Not everything has to be a world changing event.
>Should these events be spontaneous, or announced ahead of time on the calendar and/or via in game announcements?
Do both! If we can't have both, plan stuff and put it on the calendar.
~Hunter Hanryu
>Everything Rangers have is just a lame version of something cool.~Morkim
ZERODIVIDES
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 02:13 PM CST
I have to toss in my mite for really disliking the recent reliance on flexed creatures. I am not saying they should be completely done away with, but there should definitely still be challenging, unflexed creatures to add an element of danger to invasions and wars. I am not talking about champion or boss flexed creatures, either, but actually dangerous, non-flexing creatures.
To me, the recent event involving Maelshyve was a flop, because there was no happy medium. Whacking away at flex mobs is boring, and the more challenging creatures were combined with the punishing area mechanics that made it difficult for groups and support class interactions. Invasions and events should be a change from the day to day, with a sense of danger and risk that fighting flex mobs completely removes. Add to that, some guilds such as Empaths, are extremely tanky. Fighting flex mobs poses almost no risk to a combat Empath, whereas ganging up with a number of fighters to try to take down something truly dangerous adds spice, adrenaline and a sense of accomplishment that is missing from flex mob interactions. To my mind, that sense of accomplishment and teamwork is one of the biggest draws of war and invasion events. Relying on flex mobs risks undermining or destroying the very thing that makes people enjoy these types of events.
Invasions and wars should be dangerous. There should definitely be something for all levels to do, so flex mobs could shine here for some areas / aspects of an event. But to remove the danger, or to replace it with mechanics that are nearly unsurvivable, removes the point of combat events.
-- Qihhth
To me, the recent event involving Maelshyve was a flop, because there was no happy medium. Whacking away at flex mobs is boring, and the more challenging creatures were combined with the punishing area mechanics that made it difficult for groups and support class interactions. Invasions and events should be a change from the day to day, with a sense of danger and risk that fighting flex mobs completely removes. Add to that, some guilds such as Empaths, are extremely tanky. Fighting flex mobs poses almost no risk to a combat Empath, whereas ganging up with a number of fighters to try to take down something truly dangerous adds spice, adrenaline and a sense of accomplishment that is missing from flex mob interactions. To my mind, that sense of accomplishment and teamwork is one of the biggest draws of war and invasion events. Relying on flex mobs risks undermining or destroying the very thing that makes people enjoy these types of events.
Invasions and wars should be dangerous. There should definitely be something for all levels to do, so flex mobs could shine here for some areas / aspects of an event. But to remove the danger, or to replace it with mechanics that are nearly unsurvivable, removes the point of combat events.
-- Qihhth
ZERODIVIDES
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 02:35 PM CST
Hey, sorry if my last post was kind of harsh. Who knew that I cared so much about flex mobs?
Glad to see this discussion and the work by the Events team. I know it can be really thankless, so, thank you.
-- Qihhth
Glad to see this discussion and the work by the Events team. I know it can be really thankless, so, thank you.
-- Qihhth
LENAEA
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 03:23 PM CST
>I personally do not plan on putting lore behind paywalls, at least not permanently. If you meant as an early reveal during the MT event, then that would be fine.
I don't think that's what was meant. For example, the Su Helmas MT map has a library that is accessible to everyone without charge, Duskruin has a dozen or so rooms that are also accessible without charge, etc.
I know that Su Helmas is coming up.... I'd love to see some of the books in that ancient library!
I don't think that's what was meant. For example, the Su Helmas MT map has a library that is accessible to everyone without charge, Duskruin has a dozen or so rooms that are also accessible without charge, etc.
I know that Su Helmas is coming up.... I'd love to see some of the books in that ancient library!
SHIFT3
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 03:31 PM CST
> I am not talking about champion or boss flexed creatures, either, but actually dangerous, non-flexing creatures.
What's challenging to one player is a "don't play unless you're this tall" to others. The droughtman's tech combined with the instancing tech may be a good solution to this. "Invasion" burrow opens up. You get 1000 ranks in everything when you go in, and it gets harder as you progress deeper. Maybe put a nice to have but not game breaking treasure at the end or some sort of other reward system (RPAs?) for clearing out the burrow. Go in as a group. Go in yourself. Whatever floats your boat. If creatures do stream out of the burrows then they need to flex or be melee only to prevent them from instagibbing most players.
DR-KOROR
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 04:08 PM CST
SAUVA:
>I don't see why a player couldn't have been the one to strike the final blow on Maelshyve.
There are a few reasons that I can outline. I am not saying any of these as arguments, but rather to give you a little bit of a behind the scenes at the thought processes for what we have to consider when putting events together. Remember that events are generally meant to be accessible to anyone who wants to participate.
Think of the Death of Maelshyve not as a "raid" in the sense of an instanced WoW raid wherein adventurers take down Arthas, and if they fail they just regroup and go back, and everyone gets a turn, but rather, a world event that got from A -> B, maybe more akin to Deathwing razing Stormwind (my knowledge of WoW is fairly lacking, so this is probably not a great set of comparisons for me to be making). Some of the activity needed to be outside of player control so we could ensure it got from A -> B. So, consider the following:
1. We were instructed that the death of a being of Maelshyve's magnitude should not take the form of "and a bossmob with 1750 in all ranks sitting around making fun of players until they kill it", which I very much agreed with. Maelshyve was an Immortal level being and killing her was an enormous task, not remotely on par with swinging a sword at a challenging creature. She has/had roots in the Plane of Abiding, and is/was a fundamental and historical influence. The idea of only a select few PCs being able to plink the her away for a period of time, and then suddenly they've dealt enough damage to it and we initiate the death sequence was not the way we decided to take that event, though it is an approach that has been used in the past - Ciriasa, Jeihrem and Lyras are examples of previous bossmobs that utilized 'bossmob approach'. We wanted to try something different with the Maelshyve Event. Given feedback about those previous bossmobs, we decided trying something new was the best approach for Maelshyve, who was strikingly larger and more impactful than anything prior.
2. Say instead we had given PCs a special weapon that enabled them and them alone to use their Heavy Thrown ranks against Maelshyve -- what if that player logged off? Who gets the special weapon? Why them? How do we choose which character gets to be the hero instead of another character? There are many 200th circle characters, and that is only going to grow -- do we gate heroism by circle?
3. What if Maelshyve won? That is, PCs were unable to do enough damage, and the whole thing basically resulted in a wipe. Do we have the GMPC playing Maelshyve sit around and wait for them to regroup and try again? What if they simply lack the ranks to do so? Do we keep tuning the Maelshyve GMPC down until someone can do it, somewhat akin to a flex mob? What if we had two outcomes -- what if the final outcome came down to 'which team logged in more HLCs and had better flaming tyrium axes of doom'?
>Why can't Perune and his band of planar researchers be the ones that discover the next warmage spell?
This relates to my initial post -- understand that responses may not necessarily mean "sweeping changes to the game landscape". It is also important to understand that sometimes "sweeping changes to the game landscape" may be initiated by attempts to rope players into the events. The Planar Research experiment is a novel and neat thing. There have been other novel and neat things that players have proposed and done -- to answer your question, what spell? As far as I am aware, we do not currently have any new WM spell ready for release that relates to this event -- and importantly, we cannot create a new spell, or new area, etc., every time a player or group of players propose an event. And similarly, people should not postpone events in hopes that doing so will release a new spell!
Events are hopefully to provide players with a sense of ongoing dynamic stories to tell and experiences to have. Some events will tie to actual changes to the game landscape. Some will not. Sometimes the ongoing player events can be roped into the greater arc. Sometimes they cannot. We have not yet seen what will happen with the Planar Experiment.
>But hopefully that's changing and can drive thoughts for future opportunities where GMs set up individuals and small groups of PCs to write themselves into the annals of elanthipedia history. I don't think all events should end with a single PC being the lauded hero, but I'm struggling to recall even a single one in recent history where I can say "Alice will always be remembered for that time she single handedly changed Elanthia."
One of our goals has always been to increase player participation and hopefully excitement in events, particularly with respect to the lore of the setting. I understand that what I find most interesting may not be shared among everyone, and hope to get a better sense of what else people want to see. I have worked with other GMs to very regularly respond to player driven events -- while I do not consider this to be the same as "writing themselves into the annals of Elanthipedia history", I think a number of events have occurred that players could have shared on Elanthipedia to showcase things they did and how we responded to their actions. Sometimes players seem to not want to share what happened. Sometimes they do.
>Where's the call for "we need a bard with maxed out bardic lore to recall history here for the clue we need!"
This ties into getting events from A -> B. What if such a Bard cannot be found? Remember how earlier I talked about the need to plan contingencies in events, and how often we find players respond in interesting ways we were not expecting? Sometimes, that response is due to players opting to do something totally different (instead of going to the mine to find the hostage, they go to the Arid Steppe and do handstands!). What do we do then? How do we keep the event moving along? We could of course skill gate more things and simply suggest "I guess you need a Bard with more talent", and wait until they find one. But as it was, one of the complaints about the Maelshyve Event was that charging the devices took too long -- what if we had made it so charging the devices required 1500 ranks of Arcana? What if we the GMs, or you the players, simply do not have the time to spend that night hammering away at the thing?
>Essentially I can boil this question of "what do you want from GM driven RP" down to a single word answer. More.
On it. :)
ZERODIVIDES:
>To me, the recent event involving Maelshyve was a flop, because there was no happy medium. Whacking away at flex mobs is boring, and the more challenging creatures were combined with the punishing area mechanics that made it difficult for groups and support class interactions.
I may be misunderstanding you, but we did not use any flex creatures in the Maelshyve Event. The invasions leading up to it used all Maelshyvean creatures, and during the event proper the side events used the more powerful Maelshyvean creatures.
>I don't see why a player couldn't have been the one to strike the final blow on Maelshyve.
There are a few reasons that I can outline. I am not saying any of these as arguments, but rather to give you a little bit of a behind the scenes at the thought processes for what we have to consider when putting events together. Remember that events are generally meant to be accessible to anyone who wants to participate.
Think of the Death of Maelshyve not as a "raid" in the sense of an instanced WoW raid wherein adventurers take down Arthas, and if they fail they just regroup and go back, and everyone gets a turn, but rather, a world event that got from A -> B, maybe more akin to Deathwing razing Stormwind (my knowledge of WoW is fairly lacking, so this is probably not a great set of comparisons for me to be making). Some of the activity needed to be outside of player control so we could ensure it got from A -> B. So, consider the following:
1. We were instructed that the death of a being of Maelshyve's magnitude should not take the form of "and a bossmob with 1750 in all ranks sitting around making fun of players until they kill it", which I very much agreed with. Maelshyve was an Immortal level being and killing her was an enormous task, not remotely on par with swinging a sword at a challenging creature. She has/had roots in the Plane of Abiding, and is/was a fundamental and historical influence. The idea of only a select few PCs being able to plink the her away for a period of time, and then suddenly they've dealt enough damage to it and we initiate the death sequence was not the way we decided to take that event, though it is an approach that has been used in the past - Ciriasa, Jeihrem and Lyras are examples of previous bossmobs that utilized 'bossmob approach'. We wanted to try something different with the Maelshyve Event. Given feedback about those previous bossmobs, we decided trying something new was the best approach for Maelshyve, who was strikingly larger and more impactful than anything prior.
2. Say instead we had given PCs a special weapon that enabled them and them alone to use their Heavy Thrown ranks against Maelshyve -- what if that player logged off? Who gets the special weapon? Why them? How do we choose which character gets to be the hero instead of another character? There are many 200th circle characters, and that is only going to grow -- do we gate heroism by circle?
3. What if Maelshyve won? That is, PCs were unable to do enough damage, and the whole thing basically resulted in a wipe. Do we have the GMPC playing Maelshyve sit around and wait for them to regroup and try again? What if they simply lack the ranks to do so? Do we keep tuning the Maelshyve GMPC down until someone can do it, somewhat akin to a flex mob? What if we had two outcomes -- what if the final outcome came down to 'which team logged in more HLCs and had better flaming tyrium axes of doom'?
>Why can't Perune and his band of planar researchers be the ones that discover the next warmage spell?
This relates to my initial post -- understand that responses may not necessarily mean "sweeping changes to the game landscape". It is also important to understand that sometimes "sweeping changes to the game landscape" may be initiated by attempts to rope players into the events. The Planar Research experiment is a novel and neat thing. There have been other novel and neat things that players have proposed and done -- to answer your question, what spell? As far as I am aware, we do not currently have any new WM spell ready for release that relates to this event -- and importantly, we cannot create a new spell, or new area, etc., every time a player or group of players propose an event. And similarly, people should not postpone events in hopes that doing so will release a new spell!
Events are hopefully to provide players with a sense of ongoing dynamic stories to tell and experiences to have. Some events will tie to actual changes to the game landscape. Some will not. Sometimes the ongoing player events can be roped into the greater arc. Sometimes they cannot. We have not yet seen what will happen with the Planar Experiment.
>But hopefully that's changing and can drive thoughts for future opportunities where GMs set up individuals and small groups of PCs to write themselves into the annals of elanthipedia history. I don't think all events should end with a single PC being the lauded hero, but I'm struggling to recall even a single one in recent history where I can say "Alice will always be remembered for that time she single handedly changed Elanthia."
One of our goals has always been to increase player participation and hopefully excitement in events, particularly with respect to the lore of the setting. I understand that what I find most interesting may not be shared among everyone, and hope to get a better sense of what else people want to see. I have worked with other GMs to very regularly respond to player driven events -- while I do not consider this to be the same as "writing themselves into the annals of Elanthipedia history", I think a number of events have occurred that players could have shared on Elanthipedia to showcase things they did and how we responded to their actions. Sometimes players seem to not want to share what happened. Sometimes they do.
>Where's the call for "we need a bard with maxed out bardic lore to recall history here for the clue we need!"
This ties into getting events from A -> B. What if such a Bard cannot be found? Remember how earlier I talked about the need to plan contingencies in events, and how often we find players respond in interesting ways we were not expecting? Sometimes, that response is due to players opting to do something totally different (instead of going to the mine to find the hostage, they go to the Arid Steppe and do handstands!). What do we do then? How do we keep the event moving along? We could of course skill gate more things and simply suggest "I guess you need a Bard with more talent", and wait until they find one. But as it was, one of the complaints about the Maelshyve Event was that charging the devices took too long -- what if we had made it so charging the devices required 1500 ranks of Arcana? What if we the GMs, or you the players, simply do not have the time to spend that night hammering away at the thing?
>Essentially I can boil this question of "what do you want from GM driven RP" down to a single word answer. More.
On it. :)
ZERODIVIDES:
>To me, the recent event involving Maelshyve was a flop, because there was no happy medium. Whacking away at flex mobs is boring, and the more challenging creatures were combined with the punishing area mechanics that made it difficult for groups and support class interactions.
I may be misunderstanding you, but we did not use any flex creatures in the Maelshyve Event. The invasions leading up to it used all Maelshyvean creatures, and during the event proper the side events used the more powerful Maelshyvean creatures.
ZERODIVIDES
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 04:15 PM CST
>> What's challenging to one player is a "don't play unless you're this tall" to others.
I am definitely not advocating that entire invasions or events be too difficult for lower segments of the population. But I think we lose something if everyone can always participate in everything equally. In the immortal words Syndrome, "If everyone is super, no one will be." Personally, I get a lot of enjoyment out of trying something I know is a bit out of reach, and managing to make a difference despite the challenge. In having to really make the most of my character's entire toolkit to be able to hold the line. Watching out for others and helping people who get in over their heads. We lose this if we rely completely on flex mobs.
Again, I think they are a great solution for some parts of an event, but without something to work toward and struggle against, I think we will risk losing part of what makes these events so enjoyable.
-- Qihhth (65th Circle Empath, FWIW)
I am definitely not advocating that entire invasions or events be too difficult for lower segments of the population. But I think we lose something if everyone can always participate in everything equally. In the immortal words Syndrome, "If everyone is super, no one will be." Personally, I get a lot of enjoyment out of trying something I know is a bit out of reach, and managing to make a difference despite the challenge. In having to really make the most of my character's entire toolkit to be able to hold the line. Watching out for others and helping people who get in over their heads. We lose this if we rely completely on flex mobs.
Again, I think they are a great solution for some parts of an event, but without something to work toward and struggle against, I think we will risk losing part of what makes these events so enjoyable.
-- Qihhth (65th Circle Empath, FWIW)
HASTALUEGO
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 04:51 PM CST
First, let me say I've been quite impressed over the last couple years with the way larger Events have been handled and the way GMs have run with player concepts or initiative. I think it shows a progression in the community of the game on both player and GM sides and that's a good thing. Also, thanks to Koror for both initiating this conversation but also clearly putting in work as an Events GM which makes the game more enjoyable for all of us.
In regards to the meat of the discussion, I could probably talk about my thoughts on Events for hours, but I'll try to stick to the few things that were asked.
What I'd like to see more of:
As I mentioned, I feel like the way player initiative has been drawn from and used to catapult events is a great thing, and I hope to continue to see more of that, but what I really want to see from that end is more agency in the hands of the PCs. I know that's a hot topic, and there's always concerns about favoritism, but frankly, Staff's fear of being labelled as favoring players not only heavily restricts what type of events you can run but also makes it so players will never be able to take more load off of the workhorse that is running events to begin with. Keep in mind that for every PC that has a burden of responsibility in something, that's one less GM NPC that needs to be created and played to advance whatever that something is. Rumor had it that some of the player agency issues were discussed at SimuCon last year, and as I ease back slowly from my current character and begin playing a newer one, I intend to poke that bear more, so I guess I'll see how that goes, but I think player agency is always going to be a serious subject for those who derive their pleasure of the game from roleplaying.
What I'd like to see less of:
I think for the most part, Event GMs tend to learn from their experiences and always work to improve things, as I've seen constant attempts to try new things over the years and lots of feedback requests afterwards. So I don't have a thing that is being done right now that I'd like to see stop, but I do have a thing that isn't being done, and I'd like that thing to be picked back up again. That thing is the Provinces. At least the big Three: Zoluren, Therengia, Shard. Over the course of the last 5-10 years, Events have largely shifted from everyday political intrigue, war, basic local events, etc., to large cosmic planar issues. And I'm certainly guilty of helping shove things in that direction often enough, but honestly, the common less-cosmic events that encompass Province activity are the things that carry the adventure class through the day-to-day. They're what people bounce themselves off of because things are happening where they live. When the Provinces aren't active, it feels like the world isn't alive, because for the adventurer, there is little consequences to most of their actions. If I look at a lot of the things that have happened to Perune(and especially things he has done) over the last few years, its amazing something from one nobility or another hasn't hit him on his head, in either a negative or positive way and I lean more towards the former.
Granted, making the Provinces active is a large undertaking, and its totally possible we don't have the manpower for that right now. If there isn't, not much to do about that, but its something to consider.
Things that discourage me:
Little discourages me from getting involved directly in a GM-created Event. However, citing PC agency before, I do tend to get discouraged from being more proactive in pushing my own ideas, because I know there is a distinct mind-set(even if there may be no hard or fast rule) in regards to what GMs are currently willing to allow PCs to attempt, and that keeps what I think are some of my better ideas from ever taking form.
In regards to the meat of the discussion, I could probably talk about my thoughts on Events for hours, but I'll try to stick to the few things that were asked.
What I'd like to see more of:
As I mentioned, I feel like the way player initiative has been drawn from and used to catapult events is a great thing, and I hope to continue to see more of that, but what I really want to see from that end is more agency in the hands of the PCs. I know that's a hot topic, and there's always concerns about favoritism, but frankly, Staff's fear of being labelled as favoring players not only heavily restricts what type of events you can run but also makes it so players will never be able to take more load off of the workhorse that is running events to begin with. Keep in mind that for every PC that has a burden of responsibility in something, that's one less GM NPC that needs to be created and played to advance whatever that something is. Rumor had it that some of the player agency issues were discussed at SimuCon last year, and as I ease back slowly from my current character and begin playing a newer one, I intend to poke that bear more, so I guess I'll see how that goes, but I think player agency is always going to be a serious subject for those who derive their pleasure of the game from roleplaying.
What I'd like to see less of:
I think for the most part, Event GMs tend to learn from their experiences and always work to improve things, as I've seen constant attempts to try new things over the years and lots of feedback requests afterwards. So I don't have a thing that is being done right now that I'd like to see stop, but I do have a thing that isn't being done, and I'd like that thing to be picked back up again. That thing is the Provinces. At least the big Three: Zoluren, Therengia, Shard. Over the course of the last 5-10 years, Events have largely shifted from everyday political intrigue, war, basic local events, etc., to large cosmic planar issues. And I'm certainly guilty of helping shove things in that direction often enough, but honestly, the common less-cosmic events that encompass Province activity are the things that carry the adventure class through the day-to-day. They're what people bounce themselves off of because things are happening where they live. When the Provinces aren't active, it feels like the world isn't alive, because for the adventurer, there is little consequences to most of their actions. If I look at a lot of the things that have happened to Perune(and especially things he has done) over the last few years, its amazing something from one nobility or another hasn't hit him on his head, in either a negative or positive way and I lean more towards the former.
Granted, making the Provinces active is a large undertaking, and its totally possible we don't have the manpower for that right now. If there isn't, not much to do about that, but its something to consider.
Things that discourage me:
Little discourages me from getting involved directly in a GM-created Event. However, citing PC agency before, I do tend to get discouraged from being more proactive in pushing my own ideas, because I know there is a distinct mind-set(even if there may be no hard or fast rule) in regards to what GMs are currently willing to allow PCs to attempt, and that keeps what I think are some of my better ideas from ever taking form.
ZERODIVIDES
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 05:00 PM CST
>>I may be misunderstanding you, but we did not use any flex creatures in the Maelshyve Event. The invasions leading up to it used all Maelshyvean creatures, and during the event proper the side events used the more powerful Maelshyvean creatures.
I was thinking of the Maelshyvean vessels -- if they weren't flexing then they were much easier than I expected.
--
I was thinking of the Maelshyvean vessels -- if they weren't flexing then they were much easier than I expected.
--
SAUVA
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 05:22 PM CST
>There are a few reasons that I can outline.
Yep, I get all those points. And I think the fact that the way Maelshyve was handled was different was great. I wouldn't want to change it now, but I'm using it as a mirror of what could be in the future. Yea it's hard, and I'm sure it's not worth planning out all the possibilities for every single event. But once, give it a go where you play some favorites, and reward those players that have dedicated years of their RL lives, either to grinding out ranks, or to role-playing the heck out of their characters (or both!) and let the wiki reflect forever that TurribleButcheringOfNameFromLiterature was the PC that changed DR forever.
>we cannot create a new spell, or new area, etc., every time a player or group of players propose an event.
Maybe once, just once, we could though. That's my suggestion. Remember you asked for it, haha :D Don't take the specifics at face value, take the implication that it's ok to let a single PC go down in history for something.
We need more clips like this:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Arilana
~Hunter Hanryu
>Everything Rangers have is just a lame version of something cool.~Morkim
Yep, I get all those points. And I think the fact that the way Maelshyve was handled was different was great. I wouldn't want to change it now, but I'm using it as a mirror of what could be in the future. Yea it's hard, and I'm sure it's not worth planning out all the possibilities for every single event. But once, give it a go where you play some favorites, and reward those players that have dedicated years of their RL lives, either to grinding out ranks, or to role-playing the heck out of their characters (or both!) and let the wiki reflect forever that TurribleButcheringOfNameFromLiterature was the PC that changed DR forever.
>we cannot create a new spell, or new area, etc., every time a player or group of players propose an event.
Maybe once, just once, we could though. That's my suggestion. Remember you asked for it, haha :D Don't take the specifics at face value, take the implication that it's ok to let a single PC go down in history for something.
We need more clips like this:
| A year or so later, Arilana was assassinated by Enef shortly after the announcement of her second pregnancy. Some believe that this event contributed to the decision to lead an assault by the Zoluren militia on the local Thieves' Guild. |
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Arilana
~Hunter Hanryu
>Everything Rangers have is just a lame version of something cool.~Morkim
SAUVA
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 05:24 PM CST
Whoops, getting long winded.
Please read all my suggestions with the huge bold letters at the top of Not for every event. And heck, maybe not even for most. But maybe GM led DR events could have a little of the 1% every once in a decade.
~Hunter Hanryu
>Everything Rangers have is just a lame version of something cool.~Morkim
Please read all my suggestions with the huge bold letters at the top of Not for every event. And heck, maybe not even for most. But maybe GM led DR events could have a little of the 1% every once in a decade.
~Hunter Hanryu
>Everything Rangers have is just a lame version of something cool.~Morkim
SAUVA
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 05:46 PM CST
>but honestly, the common less-cosmic events that encompass Province activity are the things that carry the adventure class through the day-to-day. They're what people bounce themselves off of because things are happening where they live. When the Provinces aren't active, it feels like the world isn't alive, because for the adventurer, there is little consequences to most of their actions
Yes please. Simple mundane touches of GM interaction breath just as much life into Elanthia as year long campaigns that result in the destruction of all magic.
~Hunter Hanryu
*ok with 3 in a row, I'm done... for now!
Yes please. Simple mundane touches of GM interaction breath just as much life into Elanthia as year long campaigns that result in the destruction of all magic.
~Hunter Hanryu
*ok with 3 in a row, I'm done... for now!
SPANTONV
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 05:47 PM CST
What I'd like to see more of: new/renewed critter releases at appropriate towns/cities/areas. Sort of mini invasions like we used to have when a new hunting area opened up/revamped hunting area, or a new province was yet to be discovered.
What I'd like to see less of: where we do not see the initial outcome until several years later (i.e. MWP).
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
What I'd like to see less of: where we do not see the initial outcome until several years later (i.e. MWP).
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
HASTALUEGO
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 06:24 PM CST
>>Why can't Perune and his band of planar researchers be the ones that discover the next warmage spell?
I assume Hanryu's guy is talking more in a general sense. Speaking for myself in regards to the Aether Experiment, I didn't really expect much to happen and pitched it to the WMs as a rather simple experimental procedure resulting from our previous experiment. My personal assumption was we would do a small thing, it would fail, but we'd learn more about the element and everyone would have a good time. I didn't expect the result that happened, but it was definitely very cool and it seems like everyone had a good time so for that, I am quite thankful.
>>We have not yet seen what will happen with the Planar Experiment.
Oh, we gonna die. :D
I assume Hanryu's guy is talking more in a general sense. Speaking for myself in regards to the Aether Experiment, I didn't really expect much to happen and pitched it to the WMs as a rather simple experimental procedure resulting from our previous experiment. My personal assumption was we would do a small thing, it would fail, but we'd learn more about the element and everyone would have a good time. I didn't expect the result that happened, but it was definitely very cool and it seems like everyone had a good time so for that, I am quite thankful.
>>We have not yet seen what will happen with the Planar Experiment.
Oh, we gonna die. :D
ACIDICSNAIL
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 06:55 PM CST
I just want to echo a few points brought up by other people already.
1) I love to see GMPCs around even if they aren't doing anything consequential. I might not want to have tea with Kssarh, but having GMPCs who show up to mingle even when there's not an event going on really helps make the world feel more alive. I recall when I was still fairly new to DR, a friend took me to Raven's Court and introduced me to a GMPC who was just hanging out with people. There wasn't anything special going on but it still felt really cool to meet a provincial official one on one like that.
Letting people build rapport with GMPCs is also a great way to make their involvement in the bigger events more impactful. I'm going to care a lot more if a GMPC I've talked to a dozen times is in danger or walks the starry road versus one I've only seen once or twice.
I'm in favor of a mix of spontaneous and scheduled GMPC appearance. If a GM sees an opportunity interject a certain GMPC into a conversation or situation I feel like they should be able to seize that chance without worrying about the people that might miss out. On the other hand, scheduled events are nice for people who aren't online at all hours of the day, or play in off hours.
2) While I really love the kind of event that delves deep into magical metaphysics and obscure lore, I think we need more down to earth events too. Provincial intrigue, internal guild drama, guilds butting heads with other guilds, local criminal gangs, so on. I feel like the realms are a little too harmonious most of the time. I'd like to see two or more provinces get into conflict with each other over something and give people the opportunity to RP as loyal/conflicted citizens.
3) I like flex mobs during invasions because it's the most straight forward way to let everyone participate. The suggestion that I've heard and liked the most is to have all of the plentiful canon fodder mobs be flexing and mix in the occasional high level non-flexing mobs. That way everyone can fight in the majority of the battle, but lower circle characters still have danger they need to watch out for and there are mobs that only the higher circle characters can handle. It gives everybody something to do and doesn't invalidate the need for higher skilled characters.
Thanks for listening and responding to all the feedback. It's been a great thread.
1) I love to see GMPCs around even if they aren't doing anything consequential. I might not want to have tea with Kssarh, but having GMPCs who show up to mingle even when there's not an event going on really helps make the world feel more alive. I recall when I was still fairly new to DR, a friend took me to Raven's Court and introduced me to a GMPC who was just hanging out with people. There wasn't anything special going on but it still felt really cool to meet a provincial official one on one like that.
Letting people build rapport with GMPCs is also a great way to make their involvement in the bigger events more impactful. I'm going to care a lot more if a GMPC I've talked to a dozen times is in danger or walks the starry road versus one I've only seen once or twice.
I'm in favor of a mix of spontaneous and scheduled GMPC appearance. If a GM sees an opportunity interject a certain GMPC into a conversation or situation I feel like they should be able to seize that chance without worrying about the people that might miss out. On the other hand, scheduled events are nice for people who aren't online at all hours of the day, or play in off hours.
2) While I really love the kind of event that delves deep into magical metaphysics and obscure lore, I think we need more down to earth events too. Provincial intrigue, internal guild drama, guilds butting heads with other guilds, local criminal gangs, so on. I feel like the realms are a little too harmonious most of the time. I'd like to see two or more provinces get into conflict with each other over something and give people the opportunity to RP as loyal/conflicted citizens.
3) I like flex mobs during invasions because it's the most straight forward way to let everyone participate. The suggestion that I've heard and liked the most is to have all of the plentiful canon fodder mobs be flexing and mix in the occasional high level non-flexing mobs. That way everyone can fight in the majority of the battle, but lower circle characters still have danger they need to watch out for and there are mobs that only the higher circle characters can handle. It gives everybody something to do and doesn't invalidate the need for higher skilled characters.
Thanks for listening and responding to all the feedback. It's been a great thread.
TK-421
Re: Events and you!
02/18/2020 07:17 PM CST
>> Some GMPCs are liars. Others are idiots.
And we welcome them all! As many others have echoed, having NPCs come alive (even for brief periods) is always appreciated. (GL #1 wakes up and goes to chat with GL #2, or just pesters players for a few minutes.)
>> 2) While I really love the kind of event that delves deep into magical metaphysics and obscure lore, I think we need more down to earth events too. Provincial intrigue, internal guild drama, guilds butting heads with other guilds, local criminal gangs, so on. I feel like the realms are a little too harmonious most of the time. I'd like to see two or more provinces get into conflict with each other over something and give people the opportunity to RP as loyal/conflicted citizens.
Yes, please. Some squabbling from the various factions of [insert organization here] would be great. Any opportunities for players to have to pick sides in a conflict that isn't Maelshyvean-level endgame stuff.
- I
And we welcome them all! As many others have echoed, having NPCs come alive (even for brief periods) is always appreciated. (GL #1 wakes up and goes to chat with GL #2, or just pesters players for a few minutes.)
>> 2) While I really love the kind of event that delves deep into magical metaphysics and obscure lore, I think we need more down to earth events too. Provincial intrigue, internal guild drama, guilds butting heads with other guilds, local criminal gangs, so on. I feel like the realms are a little too harmonious most of the time. I'd like to see two or more provinces get into conflict with each other over something and give people the opportunity to RP as loyal/conflicted citizens.
Yes, please. Some squabbling from the various factions of [insert organization here] would be great. Any opportunities for players to have to pick sides in a conflict that isn't Maelshyvean-level endgame stuff.
- I
