Let me preface this by saying I have no hard data on this.
I have five toothpicks from LTB points to open boxes. As a paladin who has 20 ranks in locksmithing, this is very handy.
However, I noticed that the vast majority of times that I use the toothpick over a locksmith, I only get coins. I just had about 10 boxes opened (using a locksmith), and there where quite a few gems, whereas when using the toothpicks, it's very coin heavy.
Is the system lessening my treasure due to the bypassing via the LTB?
You say, "Tada."
WHAM
A sudden burst of oily smelling air strikes you in the face.
STORM1
FIREKAST
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
01/23/2013 07:46 AM CST
I had been noticing something similar with mine trending over the last year (thought I only have one), until the last week or so when all mine have had gems+coins or just a gem. I was shocked last week when I found a gem.
POWERHAUS
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
01/24/2013 03:14 PM CST
usually I get just coins with a toothpick, rarely a gem
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
NEELD
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/03/2013 09:43 PM CST
I have only ever gotten coins using my toothpicks.
Madigan
Madigan
DR-ZADRAES
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/05/2013 09:32 PM CST
The toothpicks don't do anything that would affect treasure. They just unlock it and remove the trap info, I believe.
SGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
Premium Lead
Trader Guild Advocate
SGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
Premium Lead
Trader Guild Advocate
RAIST
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/05/2013 09:51 PM CST
>They just unlock it and remove the trap info, I believe.
Will that affect loot generation which is partially dependent on the number of locks and traps there are?
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Will that affect loot generation which is partially dependent on the number of locks and traps there are?
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
DR-ZADRAES
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/05/2013 10:31 PM CST
I don't think so, but I'm not an expert on the box system. Best bet will be to route this discussion over to the disarm/lockpicking forums in Abilities, Skills & Magic so that someone more familiar with the system can check for certain.
The toothpick itself, though, only unlocks the chest and removes the current trap info.
SGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
Premium Lead
Trader Guild Advocate
The toothpick itself, though, only unlocks the chest and removes the current trap info.
SGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
Premium Lead
Trader Guild Advocate
TEVESHSZAT
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/05/2013 10:51 PM CST
>>Will that affect loot generation which is partially dependent on the number of locks and traps there are?
If it is the same mechanics as the Riot I metal strips, I didn't see any loss of loot generation. The traps and everything are still there when I use my strip, but the box gets unlocked.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
If it is the same mechanics as the Riot I metal strips, I didn't see any loss of loot generation. The traps and everything are still there when I use my strip, but the box gets unlocked.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
BULGRIM
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/13/2013 11:11 AM CST
The only bug that I've seen using my toothpick is that after I've taken the items from the box, I can never bash it to pieces because it says that it is still closed.
STORM1
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 09:07 AM CST
Thanks for the responses to this. I did a small-scale test to see if I was crazy or not (well, with regards to this...). Here's what I found:
Five boxes opened via toothpicks and traditional means. All should be from Zombie Maulers.
Toothpick Box 1:
You pick up 4 copper Lirums.
>get coin
You pick up 5 bronze Kronars.
>get coin
You pick up 1 platinum Dokora.
Toothpick Box 2:
>get coin
You pick up 3 copper Kronars.
>get coin
You pick up 6 bronze Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 2 silver Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 7 gold Kronars.
>
Toothpick Box 3:
You get a large periwinkle amethyst from inside your steel caddy.
>app ame
You are confident that the periwinkle amethyst is unmarked.
You think it is likely that the periwinkle amethyst weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the periwinkle amethyst is worth exactly 11377 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Toothpick Box 4
>get coin
You pick up 8 copper Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 6 bronze Lirums.
>get coin
You pick up 3 gold Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 1 platinum Lirum.
Toothpick Box 5
You pick up 1 copper Dokora.
>get coin
You pick up 7 silver Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 1 gold Dokora.
>get coin
You pick up 1 platinum Dokora.
Total of Toothpick Boxes converted to doks: 39982
Disarmed Box 1:
You are certain that the blue moonstone is unmarked.
You think it is likely that the blue moonstone weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the blue moonstone is worth exactly 6786 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
You guess that the mint green tsavorite has a chatoyant luster.
You wonder if the mint green tsavorite is cloudy.
You wonder if the mint green tsavorite is unmarked.
You think it is likely that the mint green tsavorite weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the mint green tsavorite is worth exactly 3416 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Disarmed Box 2:
You guess that the yellow-green alexandrite is unmarked.
You are confident that the yellow-green alexandrite weighs about 1 stone.
You are certain that the yellow-green alexandrite is worth exactly 7179 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
You think it is likely that the blue-purple topaz is unmarked.
You estimate that the blue-purple topaz weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the blue-purple topaz is worth exactly 14130 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Disarmed Box 3:
You believe that the taupe topaz is unmarked.
You think it is likely that the taupe topaz weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the taupe topaz is worth exactly 8967 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Disarmed Box 4:
You estimate that the yellow sapphire is unmarked.
You are confident that the yellow sapphire weighs about 1 stone.
You are certain that the yellow sapphire is worth exactly 7291 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
The silver nugget is made with metal.
You are certain the silver nugget has a volume of 2.
You estimate that the silver nugget weighs around 15 stones.
You are certain that the silver nugget is worth exactly 4574 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
You are certain that the chartreuse quartz has a silky luster.
You wonder if the chartreuse quartz is very murky.
You wonder if the chartreuse quartz is unmarked.
You are confident that the chartreuse quartz weighs about 1 stone.
You are certain that the chartreuse quartz is worth exactly 4457 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Disarmed Box 5:
You pick up 6 copper Kronars.
>get coin
You pick up 9 bronze Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 5 silver Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 3 gold Kronars.
>get coin
You pick up 1 platinum Dokora.
Disarmed box total (coverted to doks): 69559
So basically, I had a yield of an extra three plat for the boxes I opened normall opposed to using toothpicks (and this assumes I did my conversions right, but I'm fairly certain they are sound). The thing that jumps out to me is that 4/5 boxes contained coins when toothpicked, whereas, 4/5 contained gems when opened traditionally. Is it downgrading treasure because the difficulty is being bypassed? Would this effect getting any additional items, such as maps, scrolls, cards etc (to my knowledge, I've never gotten one from toothpicked boxes.
You say, "Tada."
WHAM
A sudden burst of oily smelling air strikes you in the face.
Five boxes opened via toothpicks and traditional means. All should be from Zombie Maulers.
Toothpick Box 1:
You pick up 4 copper Lirums.
>get coin
You pick up 5 bronze Kronars.
>get coin
You pick up 1 platinum Dokora.
Toothpick Box 2:
>get coin
You pick up 3 copper Kronars.
>get coin
You pick up 6 bronze Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 2 silver Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 7 gold Kronars.
>
Toothpick Box 3:
You get a large periwinkle amethyst from inside your steel caddy.
>app ame
You are confident that the periwinkle amethyst is unmarked.
You think it is likely that the periwinkle amethyst weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the periwinkle amethyst is worth exactly 11377 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Toothpick Box 4
>get coin
You pick up 8 copper Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 6 bronze Lirums.
>get coin
You pick up 3 gold Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 1 platinum Lirum.
Toothpick Box 5
You pick up 1 copper Dokora.
>get coin
You pick up 7 silver Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 1 gold Dokora.
>get coin
You pick up 1 platinum Dokora.
Total of Toothpick Boxes converted to doks: 39982
Disarmed Box 1:
You are certain that the blue moonstone is unmarked.
You think it is likely that the blue moonstone weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the blue moonstone is worth exactly 6786 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
You guess that the mint green tsavorite has a chatoyant luster.
You wonder if the mint green tsavorite is cloudy.
You wonder if the mint green tsavorite is unmarked.
You think it is likely that the mint green tsavorite weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the mint green tsavorite is worth exactly 3416 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Disarmed Box 2:
You guess that the yellow-green alexandrite is unmarked.
You are confident that the yellow-green alexandrite weighs about 1 stone.
You are certain that the yellow-green alexandrite is worth exactly 7179 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
You think it is likely that the blue-purple topaz is unmarked.
You estimate that the blue-purple topaz weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the blue-purple topaz is worth exactly 14130 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Disarmed Box 3:
You believe that the taupe topaz is unmarked.
You think it is likely that the taupe topaz weighs around 1 stone.
You are certain that the taupe topaz is worth exactly 8967 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Disarmed Box 4:
You estimate that the yellow sapphire is unmarked.
You are confident that the yellow sapphire weighs about 1 stone.
You are certain that the yellow sapphire is worth exactly 7291 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
The silver nugget is made with metal.
You are certain the silver nugget has a volume of 2.
You estimate that the silver nugget weighs around 15 stones.
You are certain that the silver nugget is worth exactly 4574 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
You are certain that the chartreuse quartz has a silky luster.
You wonder if the chartreuse quartz is very murky.
You wonder if the chartreuse quartz is unmarked.
You are confident that the chartreuse quartz weighs about 1 stone.
You are certain that the chartreuse quartz is worth exactly 4457 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Disarmed Box 5:
You pick up 6 copper Kronars.
>get coin
You pick up 9 bronze Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 5 silver Dokoras.
>get coin
You pick up 3 gold Kronars.
>get coin
You pick up 1 platinum Dokora.
Disarmed box total (coverted to doks): 69559
So basically, I had a yield of an extra three plat for the boxes I opened normall opposed to using toothpicks (and this assumes I did my conversions right, but I'm fairly certain they are sound). The thing that jumps out to me is that 4/5 boxes contained coins when toothpicked, whereas, 4/5 contained gems when opened traditionally. Is it downgrading treasure because the difficulty is being bypassed? Would this effect getting any additional items, such as maps, scrolls, cards etc (to my knowledge, I've never gotten one from toothpicked boxes.
You say, "Tada."
WHAM
A sudden burst of oily smelling air strikes you in the face.
ALEPH-ONE
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 01:04 PM CST
Your sample sizes are too small to determine if you're seeing a pattern or just chance.
If you do about 30 of each (more is even better) and post the results I can run a statistical test for you that will tell you if the pattern is real. Just post the total amount earned per box and whether it was all coins or no.
-- Player of Eyuve
If you do about 30 of each (more is even better) and post the results I can run a statistical test for you that will tell you if the pattern is real. Just post the total amount earned per box and whether it was all coins or no.
-- Player of Eyuve
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 02:33 PM CST
>>Your sample sizes are too small to determine if you're seeing a pattern or just chance.
In a statistical world where exact data is needed you're right. However, given all the people that have posted anecdotally, I'd say a small sample is enough to prove that something is up.
When I dip a toe in the tub, I don't have to know exactly how hot the water is to know that my arse will get burned if I get in.
All that aside, asking for 30 boxes with a toothpick is asking a lot. Even if some had 5 toothpicks that would still be 6 days, and I'm not sure people have 5 toothpicks.
There were those thin metal strips that dropped in prison riot I, but given that they don't drop in II, I doubt people really want to donate those charges to the cause.
Or... someone behind the curtain could take 30 minutes to read through the code and confirm or deny the assumption.
PAFO is cute and all, but when PAFO becomes a 9th grade stat project, frankly, I don't think most of us pay for that.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
In a statistical world where exact data is needed you're right. However, given all the people that have posted anecdotally, I'd say a small sample is enough to prove that something is up.
When I dip a toe in the tub, I don't have to know exactly how hot the water is to know that my arse will get burned if I get in.
All that aside, asking for 30 boxes with a toothpick is asking a lot. Even if some had 5 toothpicks that would still be 6 days, and I'm not sure people have 5 toothpicks.
There were those thin metal strips that dropped in prison riot I, but given that they don't drop in II, I doubt people really want to donate those charges to the cause.
Or... someone behind the curtain could take 30 minutes to read through the code and confirm or deny the assumption.
PAFO is cute and all, but when PAFO becomes a 9th grade stat project, frankly, I don't think most of us pay for that.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
STORM1
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 04:37 PM CST
Amen Diggan! You read my mind!
Though I do have five toothpicks, I don't have the time to track the results of the sample being requested. As I previously posted, and others mentioned, I almost consistently get coins.
You say, "Tada."
WHAM
A sudden burst of oily smelling air strikes you in the face.
Though I do have five toothpicks, I don't have the time to track the results of the sample being requested. As I previously posted, and others mentioned, I almost consistently get coins.
You say, "Tada."
WHAM
A sudden burst of oily smelling air strikes you in the face.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 04:51 PM CST
Just spitballing here, but if the number of locks/traps determine the treasure modifier (I think this is the case), and if boxes have the chances of more traps pop up dynamically as opposed to being preset (I have no idea about this), would that mean automatically opening a box without going through those extra/bonus traps/locks give the lowest treasure modifier?
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
ALEPH-ONE
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 06:03 PM CST
>>In a statistical world where exact data is needed you're right.
We live in the real world. We use statistics to understand it. There is no such thing as a "statistical world".
I think what you're trying to say is that people have their own instincts and ways of, essentially, feeling out whether there's a pattern. It's true. We are remarkably good at it sometimes, but remarkably bad at it at other times. Yellot (1969) is a good study to look at -- it shows how people tend to think there's always a pattern, even in randomness.
>>However, given all the people that have posted anecdotally, I'd say a small sample is enough to prove that something is up.
For the record, anecdotal evidence is pretty awful. It tends to combine confirmation bias (people only remembering those times that agree with their theory) with volunteer bias (people only reporting a problem when it's extreme for them).
That said, if I were a GM and it would only take a minute, I'd poke around and check it. I mean, if it doesn't hurt, why not.
Since I'm not, the best I can do is offer to present some really convincing evidence, enough that it warrants a GM's time no matter if it's a small or more medium cost.
>>asking for 30 boxes with a toothpick is asking a lot.
I could do the test with fewer, it would just lower our chances of detecting an effect (if it's truly there). You could try 10 boxes in addition to the 5 already posted. That said, you don't have to. It's just an offer.
>>PAFO is cute and all, but when PAFO becomes a 9th grade stat project, frankly, I don't think most of us pay for that.
Speak for yourself. I love stats. ;)
-- Player of Eyuve
We live in the real world. We use statistics to understand it. There is no such thing as a "statistical world".
I think what you're trying to say is that people have their own instincts and ways of, essentially, feeling out whether there's a pattern. It's true. We are remarkably good at it sometimes, but remarkably bad at it at other times. Yellot (1969) is a good study to look at -- it shows how people tend to think there's always a pattern, even in randomness.
>>However, given all the people that have posted anecdotally, I'd say a small sample is enough to prove that something is up.
For the record, anecdotal evidence is pretty awful. It tends to combine confirmation bias (people only remembering those times that agree with their theory) with volunteer bias (people only reporting a problem when it's extreme for them).
That said, if I were a GM and it would only take a minute, I'd poke around and check it. I mean, if it doesn't hurt, why not.
Since I'm not, the best I can do is offer to present some really convincing evidence, enough that it warrants a GM's time no matter if it's a small or more medium cost.
>>asking for 30 boxes with a toothpick is asking a lot.
I could do the test with fewer, it would just lower our chances of detecting an effect (if it's truly there). You could try 10 boxes in addition to the 5 already posted. That said, you don't have to. It's just an offer.
>>PAFO is cute and all, but when PAFO becomes a 9th grade stat project, frankly, I don't think most of us pay for that.
Speak for yourself. I love stats. ;)
-- Player of Eyuve
DANFORDS2
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 06:20 PM CST
>asking for 30 boxes with a toothpick is asking a lot.
It's a 24 hour cool down, so this takes a week to accomplish with five of them. Less if other people are willing to use their toothpicks to help create some hard evidence.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
It's a 24 hour cool down, so this takes a week to accomplish with five of them. Less if other people are willing to use their toothpicks to help create some hard evidence.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 09:38 PM CST
>>We use statistics to understand it.
You use statistics to understand it. As far as I know, when the first Native America sat down and ate the purple berry, then died, the tribe didn't sit down and ask 30 people to eat the berry and see if they died before going, "Eh, maybe we shouldn't eat the purple berries"
I appreciate that you like stats, and I wasn't putting down your offer or trying to say it wasn't a valid way of testing things. I was poking a bit of fun at you that you like to take everything and wrap it up in a nice little statistical package. In this case, it's just not necessary.
I know there is confirmation bias, and all manner of studies done that show humans have bad memories and very selective memories. That being said, when you get a group of consistent posters together (the 15 of us as someone else pointed out) and we're all seeing the same thing. Then someone posts a very small test that jives with that gut feel, and on top of that you throw one posters Theory about # of traps & # of locks determining treasure (which is documented, verified, and in stone) and one can pretty much just nod and go, "Yep, toothpicks give you the minimum level of treasure".
And that's what's great about the world; it takes all types. If someone wants to get me 5 boxes, I'll open one a day for the next 5 days and help Eyuve prove what the rest of us Indians know.
"The purple ones taste like burning."
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
You use statistics to understand it. As far as I know, when the first Native America sat down and ate the purple berry, then died, the tribe didn't sit down and ask 30 people to eat the berry and see if they died before going, "Eh, maybe we shouldn't eat the purple berries"
I appreciate that you like stats, and I wasn't putting down your offer or trying to say it wasn't a valid way of testing things. I was poking a bit of fun at you that you like to take everything and wrap it up in a nice little statistical package. In this case, it's just not necessary.
I know there is confirmation bias, and all manner of studies done that show humans have bad memories and very selective memories. That being said, when you get a group of consistent posters together (the 15 of us as someone else pointed out) and we're all seeing the same thing. Then someone posts a very small test that jives with that gut feel, and on top of that you throw one posters Theory about # of traps & # of locks determining treasure (which is documented, verified, and in stone) and one can pretty much just nod and go, "Yep, toothpicks give you the minimum level of treasure".
And that's what's great about the world; it takes all types. If someone wants to get me 5 boxes, I'll open one a day for the next 5 days and help Eyuve prove what the rest of us Indians know.
"The purple ones taste like burning."
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
CARDINALE01
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 10:00 PM CST
Has anyone tried getting a Moon Mage's help in testing this? Or I think I've got a couple Clear Vision runes. I assume CV can still see through a box to see what type of treasure it has in it, I haven't kept up with Moon Mages since I've returned. Unless CVing locks the rewards in place since it's been "seen" already, you could look inside the box as you disarm and pick through multiple traps and locks and see if the treasure changes. If it does, then the most likely answer is that bypassing any extra locks and traps only gives you the baseline loot.
Zadraes already responded to this thread when it was first started that the toothpick doesn't effect loot generated at all and does nothing but disarm the trap and open the box and suggested moving this discussion over to the disarm/lockpicking folders so someone more familiar with boxes would see it and be able to answer why using the toothpick is giving less of a reward.
Zadraes already responded to this thread when it was first started that the toothpick doesn't effect loot generated at all and does nothing but disarm the trap and open the box and suggested moving this discussion over to the disarm/lockpicking folders so someone more familiar with boxes would see it and be able to answer why using the toothpick is giving less of a reward.
GRIM45
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 10:05 PM CST
>>I know there is confirmation bias, and all manner of studies done that show humans have bad memories and very selective memories.
Ok, on the right path here so far.
>>That being said, when you get a group of consistent posters together (the 15 of us as someone else pointed out) and we're all seeing the same thing. Then someone posts a very small test that jives with that gut feel, and on top of that you throw one posters Theory about # of traps & # of locks determining treasure (which is documented, verified, and in stone) and one can pretty much just nod and go, "Yep, toothpicks give you the minimum level of treasure".
:boggle:
>>You use statistics to understand it.
More accurate: Rational people use statistics to understand it.
>>As far as I know, when the first Native America sat down and ate the purple berry, then died, the tribe didn't sit down and ask 30 people to eat the berry and see if they died before going, "Eh, maybe we shouldn't eat the purple berries"
It's a good thing that doesn't come close to what's happening here.
tl;dr: You very clearly either don't understand statistics, or don't value them (or B because of A). So just stop.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Ok, on the right path here so far.
>>That being said, when you get a group of consistent posters together (the 15 of us as someone else pointed out) and we're all seeing the same thing. Then someone posts a very small test that jives with that gut feel, and on top of that you throw one posters Theory about # of traps & # of locks determining treasure (which is documented, verified, and in stone) and one can pretty much just nod and go, "Yep, toothpicks give you the minimum level of treasure".
:boggle:
>>You use statistics to understand it.
More accurate: Rational people use statistics to understand it.
>>As far as I know, when the first Native America sat down and ate the purple berry, then died, the tribe didn't sit down and ask 30 people to eat the berry and see if they died before going, "Eh, maybe we shouldn't eat the purple berries"
It's a good thing that doesn't come close to what's happening here.
tl;dr: You very clearly either don't understand statistics, or don't value them (or B because of A). So just stop.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
GRIM45
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 10:06 PM CST
>>Has anyone tried getting a Moon Mage's help in testing this? Or I think I've got a couple Clear Vision runes. I assume CV can still see through a box to see what type of treasure it has in it, I haven't kept up with Moon Mages since I've returned. Unless CVing locks the rewards in place since it's been "seen" already, you could look inside the box as you disarm and pick through multiple traps and locks and see if the treasure changes. If it does, then the most likely answer is that bypassing any extra locks and traps only gives you the baseline loot.
PG. And it does lock the loot IIRC.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
PG. And it does lock the loot IIRC.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 11:05 PM CST
>You use statistics to understand it. As far as I know, when the first Native America sat down and ate the purple berry, then died, the tribe didn't sit down and ask 30 people to eat the berry and see if they died before going, "Eh, maybe we shouldn't eat the purple berries"
Arguably, that's a perfect execution of statistics. The wieghting there was simply so incredibly heavy in favor of 'one death' being too much cost that the outcome was deemed un-wanted.
Pants.
Arguably, that's a perfect execution of statistics. The wieghting there was simply so incredibly heavy in favor of 'one death' being too much cost that the outcome was deemed un-wanted.
Pants.
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/19/2013 11:20 PM CST
>>So just stop.
I'll stop as soon as you stop being the most narcissist troll on the forums.
And more on topic: you do recall correctly, PG locks in the treasure.
Anyways, call me irrational, but I've seen enough to believe that toothpicks should be the final resort if you want to maximize treasure.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
I'll stop as soon as you stop being the most narcissist troll on the forums.
And more on topic: you do recall correctly, PG locks in the treasure.
Anyways, call me irrational, but I've seen enough to believe that toothpicks should be the final resort if you want to maximize treasure.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
ALEPH-ONE
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug?
02/20/2013 02:09 AM CST
>>You use statistics to understand it.
I won't deny that sometimes statistics aren't needed. Sometimes we can detect patterns very clearly (or the cost of testing is clearly too high, e.g. the death berry). But in this case we have good reasons to want more evidence: confirmation/volunteer bias, Zadraes's previous comment that toothpicks don't affect loot, and the fact that no GMs yet have jumped to look at the toothpick code.
I didn't realize the cost of gathering the evidence was so high, since I'm not familiar with the toothpicks. But my offer stands if anyone wants to take me up on it.
>>Zadraes already responded to this thread when it was first started that the toothpick doesn't effect loot generated at all and does nothing but disarm the trap and open the box and suggested moving this discussion over to the disarm/lockpicking folders so someone more familiar with boxes would see it and be able to answer why using the toothpick is giving less of a reward.
We could also try this. I'm too tired at the moment to navigate our easy-to-use forums but maybe later.
-- Player of Eyuve
I won't deny that sometimes statistics aren't needed. Sometimes we can detect patterns very clearly (or the cost of testing is clearly too high, e.g. the death berry). But in this case we have good reasons to want more evidence: confirmation/volunteer bias, Zadraes's previous comment that toothpicks don't affect loot, and the fact that no GMs yet have jumped to look at the toothpick code.
I didn't realize the cost of gathering the evidence was so high, since I'm not familiar with the toothpicks. But my offer stands if anyone wants to take me up on it.
>>Zadraes already responded to this thread when it was first started that the toothpick doesn't effect loot generated at all and does nothing but disarm the trap and open the box and suggested moving this discussion over to the disarm/lockpicking folders so someone more familiar with boxes would see it and be able to answer why using the toothpick is giving less of a reward.
We could also try this. I'm too tired at the moment to navigate our easy-to-use forums but maybe later.
-- Player of Eyuve
MOD-HELJE
Re: LTB Toothpick Bug? ::NUDGE::
02/20/2013 07:39 AM CST
Despite my love of statistics, it nor the accompanying conflict are appropriately on topic for this folder. If you feel the need to continue with either subject, please feel free to check out the Social Side of Dragonrealms folder.
Helje
DragonRealms Board Monitor
If you have any questions or comments, please contact me at MOD-Helje@play.net, Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at DR-Sidatura@play.net, or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl DR-Annwyl@play.net.
Helje
DragonRealms Board Monitor
If you have any questions or comments, please contact me at MOD-Helje@play.net, Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at DR-Sidatura@play.net, or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl DR-Annwyl@play.net.
