I'm moving this over here from the previous thread I had going at http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/Survival%20Skills%20-%20Stealth/thread/1717259?get_newest=true
The issue is that there appears to be someone wrong going on in regards to PvP Stance and stealing from PCs. Given the 4-hour and 48-hour timer, it takes a while to test, but this is what I learned this morning...
For starters, I could swear I remember the auto-Open lock that happens when you steal from a PC also reverting you to your former PvP setting when the 4-hour timer expires, but this appears to not be happening. Either something is broken, or something has changed, or I'm misremembering entirely. Is it intended that when you steal from another PC you are set to PvP Open permanently, with a temporary 4-hour lock?
Secondly, I set my PvP Stance to Guarded (from Open) this morning and was given a message indicating that I'd be unable to change my stance for the next 48 hours. However, a little over an hour later I went to change it to Closed (from Guarded) and didn't get any sort of indication from the game that this wasn't allowed; in fact, I got the same "if you do this you can't change it again for 48 hours" message. I didn't confirm it, so it's possible the failure message doesn't fire until I attempt to confirm; I'm doing other testing and I'll have more info on this later today.
Third, when I am set to PvP Open (manually set to Open, not automatically set due to stealing) and I attempt to steal from another PC, I get no message indicating that I am going to be locked Open; this may be intended, but I feel as if it might be nice to at least get some notification of what has happened.
Finally, I believe the 4-hour timer for being locked Open, which I've read somewhere is supposed to count only time spent in game, may not be doing so; I went to bed last night with two hours left on my timer and the moment I logged in I was able to change my PvP stance. I'm going to test this again later today to confirm that it wasn't user error on my part the first time around.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
KUYKEND9
NINEVAH1
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/20/2015 02:34 PM CDT
>>Third, when I am set to PvP Open (manually set to Open, not automatically set due to stealing) and I attempt to steal from another PC, I get no message indicating that I am going to be locked Open; this may be intended, but I feel as if it might be nice to at least get some notification of what has happened.
No, just no. This would be extremely annoying and pointless.
No, just no. This would be extremely annoying and pointless.
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/20/2015 03:31 PM CDT
>> No, just no. This would be extremely annoying and pointless.
I'm guessing, based on the vehemence of your language, that you think I was suggesting that every stealing attempt should be accompanied by a message about being locked open, but that's just silly because not even someone who is PvP Closed gets that; you get one message every four hours, at most, and if one message every four hours would be extremely annoying to you, then I'd be quite surprised, being that this is a text-based game. If it is that much of an irritation, you could always squelch it. In any case, I didn't make a suggestion of any kind; I simply said that it would be nice to get some notification of our locked-Open status.
Since we're on the topic though, I guess the best way would be to add something to the Profile change message; currently, if you're locked Open due to stealing and you try to change your stance, you get the message that you can't. If you were set to Open (intentionally or otherwise) when the original stealing attempt took place, you may be unaware of the reason for your inability to change your stance. A reasonable way to remedy this would be to add to the stance-change failure message some indicator as to why you can't change it, such as, "You will have to wait roughly 3 hours before you can change your PvP stance, due to your recent stealing activity."
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
I'm guessing, based on the vehemence of your language, that you think I was suggesting that every stealing attempt should be accompanied by a message about being locked open, but that's just silly because not even someone who is PvP Closed gets that; you get one message every four hours, at most, and if one message every four hours would be extremely annoying to you, then I'd be quite surprised, being that this is a text-based game. If it is that much of an irritation, you could always squelch it. In any case, I didn't make a suggestion of any kind; I simply said that it would be nice to get some notification of our locked-Open status.
Since we're on the topic though, I guess the best way would be to add something to the Profile change message; currently, if you're locked Open due to stealing and you try to change your stance, you get the message that you can't. If you were set to Open (intentionally or otherwise) when the original stealing attempt took place, you may be unaware of the reason for your inability to change your stance. A reasonable way to remedy this would be to add to the stance-change failure message some indicator as to why you can't change it, such as, "You will have to wait roughly 3 hours before you can change your PvP stance, due to your recent stealing activity."
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
NINEVAH1
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/20/2015 04:10 PM CDT
If everyone it pertains to squelches it then what is the point of it being there?
IMO if someone is comfortable enough to set themselves to Open and steal from a PC but decides to change their PvP stance afterwards deserves the surprise. They are not acting in the spirit of the PvP stance system and are more than likely trying to cause policy issues or avoid the repercussions of their actions. I don't see a reason to give people who are willing to act like this a warning.
For everyone else it will be a pointless warning that everyone already knows. The majority of people who play Open stay Open 24/7, and I don't see a point in warning these people.
TLDR: I don't see the point in it and it will only annoy players.
IMO if someone is comfortable enough to set themselves to Open and steal from a PC but decides to change their PvP stance afterwards deserves the surprise. They are not acting in the spirit of the PvP stance system and are more than likely trying to cause policy issues or avoid the repercussions of their actions. I don't see a reason to give people who are willing to act like this a warning.
For everyone else it will be a pointless warning that everyone already knows. The majority of people who play Open stay Open 24/7, and I don't see a point in warning these people.
TLDR: I don't see the point in it and it will only annoy players.
THAYET
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/20/2015 04:30 PM CDT
Speaking personally I have to admit that having a big monsterbold warning reminding me I'll be locked Open pop up when I tried to steal from someone, even if it only happened once a day or whatever, would be not only annoying but stressful as I associate giant monsterbold messages about my profile with successful necromancy accusations.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/20/2015 05:23 PM CDT
>> IMO if someone is comfortable enough to set themselves to Open and steal from a PC but decides to change their PvP stance afterwards deserves the surprise... I don't see a reason to give people who are willing to act like this a warning.
They would still get the surprise, but would get an explanation (not a warning) alongside it. It would unobtrusively answer the question of why with the simple addition of six words at the end of a message. Also, people who aren't changing their PvP stance would never even see it, so you're literally arguing that a thing you would never encounter would annoy you simply because it exists. This is hilariously illogical.
>> Speaking personally I have to admit that having a big monsterbold warning reminding me I'll be locked Open pop up when I tried to steal from someone, even if it only happened once a day or whatever, would be not only annoying but stressful as I associate giant monsterbold messages about my profile with successful necromancy accusations.
Once again, nobody suggested that. My suggestion was, to graphically represent it, that we could change this...
>profile /set pvp closed
You will have to wait roughly 3 hours before you can change your PvP stance.
...to this...
>profile /set pvp closed
You will have to wait roughly 3 hours before you can change your PvP stance, due to your recent stealing activity.
Furthermore, it could also say something like this...
>profile /set pvp closed
You will have to wait roughly 3 hours before you can change your PvP stance, due to being accused of Necromancy.
Or whatever else makes sense, like Gwethsmashing or whatever.
In other news, I've discovered the following about PvP Stance as it pertains to PvP stealing.
When you manually change your PvP stance, you are unable to change it again for 48 hours, however if you steal from a PC, it will be automatically changed to OPEN for 4 hours, at the end of which period it will be automatically changed back to whatever it was previously, even during the aforementioned 48-hour period. At this time, you will be unable to change your PvP stance for 24 hours.
There are two interesting features of this new 24-hour lock. First, it overrides the 48-hour lock, meaning that I could change my PvP stance at 1pm today, steal from someone immediately, and then at 5pm tomorrow (4+24 hours later) I would again be able to change my PvP stance, even though I should have another 20 hours left on my original timer. Secondly, while in the 24-hour lock, stealing will result in an automatic change to Open for 4 hours (according to the messaging), but the 4-hour timer does not actually exist; the player is instead locked Open for whatever time is remaining on the 24-hour timer. I can definitely see an argument for why this might be intended (repeated stealing over a 24-hour period is the sort of thing one would expect to result in a lengthy locked-Open period) but even if it is purposeful, the messaging is not reflecting what is occurring. There's at least one bug here, possibly two or more, but even if some of it is working correctly, the messaging isn't.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
They would still get the surprise, but would get an explanation (not a warning) alongside it. It would unobtrusively answer the question of why with the simple addition of six words at the end of a message. Also, people who aren't changing their PvP stance would never even see it, so you're literally arguing that a thing you would never encounter would annoy you simply because it exists. This is hilariously illogical.
>> Speaking personally I have to admit that having a big monsterbold warning reminding me I'll be locked Open pop up when I tried to steal from someone, even if it only happened once a day or whatever, would be not only annoying but stressful as I associate giant monsterbold messages about my profile with successful necromancy accusations.
Once again, nobody suggested that. My suggestion was, to graphically represent it, that we could change this...
>profile /set pvp closed
You will have to wait roughly 3 hours before you can change your PvP stance.
...to this...
>profile /set pvp closed
You will have to wait roughly 3 hours before you can change your PvP stance, due to your recent stealing activity.
Furthermore, it could also say something like this...
>profile /set pvp closed
You will have to wait roughly 3 hours before you can change your PvP stance, due to being accused of Necromancy.
Or whatever else makes sense, like Gwethsmashing or whatever.
In other news, I've discovered the following about PvP Stance as it pertains to PvP stealing.
When you manually change your PvP stance, you are unable to change it again for 48 hours, however if you steal from a PC, it will be automatically changed to OPEN for 4 hours, at the end of which period it will be automatically changed back to whatever it was previously, even during the aforementioned 48-hour period. At this time, you will be unable to change your PvP stance for 24 hours.
There are two interesting features of this new 24-hour lock. First, it overrides the 48-hour lock, meaning that I could change my PvP stance at 1pm today, steal from someone immediately, and then at 5pm tomorrow (4+24 hours later) I would again be able to change my PvP stance, even though I should have another 20 hours left on my original timer. Secondly, while in the 24-hour lock, stealing will result in an automatic change to Open for 4 hours (according to the messaging), but the 4-hour timer does not actually exist; the player is instead locked Open for whatever time is remaining on the 24-hour timer. I can definitely see an argument for why this might be intended (repeated stealing over a 24-hour period is the sort of thing one would expect to result in a lengthy locked-Open period) but even if it is purposeful, the messaging is not reflecting what is occurring. There's at least one bug here, possibly two or more, but even if some of it is working correctly, the messaging isn't.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/21/2015 12:39 AM CDT
Another update: according to Elanthipedia, "When forced PvP Open, only time in gain counts for time elapsed." I can say with certainty that this is not true; I logged a character in who was PvP Closed (default), stole from someone to trigger him being automatically changed to PvP Open, logged out, and logged back in a moment ago to find I had only 18 minutes left of my Open period. Is Elanthipedia incorrect, or is the system failing to work properly?
The only thing I have left to test is that when changing from PvP Open to any other stance, there is a 1-hour waiting period for the change to take effect, and I believe (I'm about 99.9% certain) that the 1-hour waiting period overrides the 48-hour waiting period between changing stances. Which is to say I could change from PvP Open to PvP Guarded, which should prevent me from changing again for 2 days, but after 1 hour I am able to change it again. It would appear, somewhat comically, that virtually every waiting period relating to PvP stance is bugged in some way.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
The only thing I have left to test is that when changing from PvP Open to any other stance, there is a 1-hour waiting period for the change to take effect, and I believe (I'm about 99.9% certain) that the 1-hour waiting period overrides the 48-hour waiting period between changing stances. Which is to say I could change from PvP Open to PvP Guarded, which should prevent me from changing again for 2 days, but after 1 hour I am able to change it again. It would appear, somewhat comically, that virtually every waiting period relating to PvP stance is bugged in some way.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/21/2015 12:04 PM CDT
Two more glitches to report. Well, one to report, one to confirm.
If you are not logged-in when the 4-hour locked-Open timer from stealing expires, you are a) not set back to your previous PvP stance, and b) not affected by the 24-hour block to editing your PvP stance.
The 1-hour wait timer between changing your PvP stance from Open to Guarded or Closed does in fact remove the general 48-hour block on changing your PvP stance.
I believe this concludes my testing. To recap...
When you change your PvP stance, you are supposed to be prevented from changing it again for 48 hours, but...
* The 1-hour wait time for your stance to take effect after changing from OPEN to GUARDED/CLOSED overwrites the 48-hour block.
* The 4-hour locked-OPEN period (followed 24-hour block) from PvP stealing overwrites the 48-hour block.
* If the 4-hour locked-OPEN period expires while you are outside of the game, none of the normal expiration mechanics take place.
* The 24-hour block prevents the 4-hour PvP-stealing block from working; specifically, you are never set back to your previous stance, which results in a variable-length locked-OPEN period of anywhere from 4-24 hours.
* PvP OPEN players get no explanation for their inability to change stances. (Possibly intended, but potentially confusing.)
All of the timers listed above are real-time, not time spent in-game, except the 1-hour wait when switching from PvP OPEN to another stance.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
If you are not logged-in when the 4-hour locked-Open timer from stealing expires, you are a) not set back to your previous PvP stance, and b) not affected by the 24-hour block to editing your PvP stance.
The 1-hour wait timer between changing your PvP stance from Open to Guarded or Closed does in fact remove the general 48-hour block on changing your PvP stance.
I believe this concludes my testing. To recap...
When you change your PvP stance, you are supposed to be prevented from changing it again for 48 hours, but...
* The 1-hour wait time for your stance to take effect after changing from OPEN to GUARDED/CLOSED overwrites the 48-hour block.
* The 4-hour locked-OPEN period (followed 24-hour block) from PvP stealing overwrites the 48-hour block.
* If the 4-hour locked-OPEN period expires while you are outside of the game, none of the normal expiration mechanics take place.
* The 24-hour block prevents the 4-hour PvP-stealing block from working; specifically, you are never set back to your previous stance, which results in a variable-length locked-OPEN period of anywhere from 4-24 hours.
* PvP OPEN players get no explanation for their inability to change stances. (Possibly intended, but potentially confusing.)
All of the timers listed above are real-time, not time spent in-game, except the 1-hour wait when switching from PvP OPEN to another stance.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
BRYCOLE83
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/21/2015 03:16 PM CDT
>> It would appear, somewhat comically, that virtually every waiting period relating to PvP stance is bugged in some way.
Your posts might get more traction if you were less condescending.
Also, you appear to ignore posts that actually answer some of your questions.
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/21/2015 03:36 PM CDT
>> Your posts might get more traction if you were less condescending.
It's not condescension; I genuinely find it comical. Being able to laugh is a crucial to handling the invariable crazy glitches that arise in GSL.
>> Also, you appear to ignore posts that actually answer some of your questions.
The issue is that some people provide "answers" that they don't have evidence to support, and on this issue specifically, a few people have made claims of answers that my testing has proven false.
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Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
It's not condescension; I genuinely find it comical. Being able to laugh is a crucial to handling the invariable crazy glitches that arise in GSL.
>> Also, you appear to ignore posts that actually answer some of your questions.
The issue is that some people provide "answers" that they don't have evidence to support, and on this issue specifically, a few people have made claims of answers that my testing has proven false.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/21/2015 07:54 PM CDT
Alright, I know I said I'd finished testing, but something occurred to me just now, so I gave it a shot and discovered that a hunch I had was correct.
If you change your PvP stance from OPEN to GUARDED or CLOSED, it kicks off a 1-hour waiting period for the change to take effect; I mentioned this in a previous post. What I discovered however is that during this 1-hour period, you can steal from other PCs without them waiting period being affected. So, I could literally set my PvP stance from OPEN to CLOSED, wait 59 minutes, steal from someone, and then 60 seconds later I am PvP Closed. This could potentially be used to bait someone into attacking you by stealing in front of them (not from them) when your timer is near expiration.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
If you change your PvP stance from OPEN to GUARDED or CLOSED, it kicks off a 1-hour waiting period for the change to take effect; I mentioned this in a previous post. What I discovered however is that during this 1-hour period, you can steal from other PCs without them waiting period being affected. So, I could literally set my PvP stance from OPEN to CLOSED, wait 59 minutes, steal from someone, and then 60 seconds later I am PvP Closed. This could potentially be used to bait someone into attacking you by stealing in front of them (not from them) when your timer is near expiration.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
THAYET
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/21/2015 07:58 PM CDT
That's pretty naked and obvious mechanics abuse though. Like I imagine any GM looking at it during a consult where that happened would be able to suss out what they did, unless things aren't logged as thoroughly as I think they are.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/21/2015 08:03 PM CDT
>> That's pretty naked and obvious mechanics abuse though. Like I imagine any GM looking at it during a consult where that happened would be able to suss out what they did, unless things aren't logged as thoroughly as I think they are.
Oh, certainly. But it should still be fixed.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
Oh, certainly. But it should still be fixed.
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Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
DR-NAOHHI
DR-RICINUS
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/23/2015 02:06 PM CDT
Though a most of the assumptions here were flawed, the 48 hour timer wasn't getting applied at all unless profile switched was being done through the /edit window. The 24 hour timer after a profile revert was working fine, the 48 hour timer when it was added worked, as did the 4 hour timer from stealing. None of the timers were ever overwritten in any way, certainly not by the ~1 hour Open->Guarded survival timer. I did add a check when the survival timer expires to check for any new profile locks. I also switched the (now fully functional) 48 hour timer to 24 hours, so that there aren't multiple durations to wait for profile switching to cause confusion.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/23/2015 03:39 PM CDT
>> Though a most of the assumptions here were flawed, the 48 hour timer wasn't getting applied at all unless profile switched was being done through the /edit window.
I can say with certainty that it was getting applied when not using the window. I did all of my testing with the command "profile /set pvp <option>" and I know that the 48-hour timer worked at least once, because I have a specific recollection of noticing that it was actually only 47 hours, not 48. It was a minor error, so I forgot to mention it. It might be that the timer wasn't getting applied when you were setting from OPEN to something else; in the case where I know the timer worked, I was changing from GUARDED to CLOSED, as I recall.
>> The 24 hour timer after a profile revert was working fine, the 48 hour timer when it was added worked, as did the 4 hour timer from stealing.
Okay, so to be clear, it is intended that if you steal from someone during the 24-hour post-revert period (when you stop being locked Open) that you will be locked Open again, but instead of being a 4-hour lock, it is the remaining duration on the 24-hour lock? I can accept that this might be intentional; I just want to be absolutely sure, since you say it was working fine. If it is intended, it might also be good to adjust the messaging to reflect this.
>> None of the timers were ever overwritten in any way, certainly not by the ~1 hour Open->Guarded survival timer.
I guess I assumed it was being overwritten, when in fact it was (as you said above) never getting applied at all. My use of the phrase 'overwritten' in regards to the 24-hour post-revert timer and the 4-hour stealing timer might have been better phrased as 'superseded.'
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Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
I can say with certainty that it was getting applied when not using the window. I did all of my testing with the command "profile /set pvp <option>" and I know that the 48-hour timer worked at least once, because I have a specific recollection of noticing that it was actually only 47 hours, not 48. It was a minor error, so I forgot to mention it. It might be that the timer wasn't getting applied when you were setting from OPEN to something else; in the case where I know the timer worked, I was changing from GUARDED to CLOSED, as I recall.
>> The 24 hour timer after a profile revert was working fine, the 48 hour timer when it was added worked, as did the 4 hour timer from stealing.
Okay, so to be clear, it is intended that if you steal from someone during the 24-hour post-revert period (when you stop being locked Open) that you will be locked Open again, but instead of being a 4-hour lock, it is the remaining duration on the 24-hour lock? I can accept that this might be intentional; I just want to be absolutely sure, since you say it was working fine. If it is intended, it might also be good to adjust the messaging to reflect this.
>> None of the timers were ever overwritten in any way, certainly not by the ~1 hour Open->Guarded survival timer.
I guess I assumed it was being overwritten, when in fact it was (as you said above) never getting applied at all. My use of the phrase 'overwritten' in regards to the 24-hour post-revert timer and the 4-hour stealing timer might have been better phrased as 'superseded.'
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/23/2015 04:08 PM CDT
>>Okay, so to be clear, it is intended that if you steal from someone during the 24-hour post-revert period (when you stop being locked Open) that you will be locked Open again, but instead of being a 4-hour lock, it is the remaining duration on the 24-hour lock? I can accept that this might be intentional; I just want to be absolutely sure, since you say it was working fine. If it is intended, it might also be good to adjust the messaging to reflect this.
Yep, it has always been intended. We added the auto-revert feature at the request of players to change the profile back for convenience, not as a way to circumvent the profile timer. So, to be clear...
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open and locked for 4 hours
4 Hours Later
Open -> Change to Guarded (through the auto revert or on your own) -> Profile Locked for 24 Hours
2 Hours Later
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open, no new lock applied since longer lock exists
22 Hours Later
You can change your profile again.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
Yep, it has always been intended. We added the auto-revert feature at the request of players to change the profile back for convenience, not as a way to circumvent the profile timer. So, to be clear...
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open and locked for 4 hours
4 Hours Later
Open -> Change to Guarded (through the auto revert or on your own) -> Profile Locked for 24 Hours
2 Hours Later
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open, no new lock applied since longer lock exists
22 Hours Later
You can change your profile again.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/23/2015 04:18 PM CDT
Excellent! Thanks for looking into it and answering my questions. Any chance of adding some messaging to make that evident to people who haven't read this thread? Something like, when the 24-hour post-Open message and you get the "You've been set back to Guarded and can't change for 24 hours," another bit about "further stealing will set you back Open for the remainder of the 24-hour timer." And possibly a "you can't change your profile because of stealing activity" or some such if you try to change it before the timer expires.
Again, I really appreciate your work here. Thanks for taking the time to explain; the language around this whole issue has been eye-crossing-ly confusing, I know.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
Again, I really appreciate your work here. Thanks for taking the time to explain; the language around this whole issue has been eye-crossing-ly confusing, I know.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
ABSOLON
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
06/29/2015 05:40 PM CDT
<<Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open and locked for 4 hours
<<4 Hours Later
<<Open -> Change to Guarded (through the auto revert or on your own) -> Profile Locked for 24 Hours
<<2 Hours Later
<<Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open, no new lock applied since longer lock exists
<<22 Hours Later
<<You can change your profile again.
Would it be possible to have the 24 hour lock be only for reducing your profile?
My current situation:
Closed (default) -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open
4 Hours later
Open -> Change to Closed (default) via auto revert -> Profile locked for 24 hours.
I want to be in Guarded stance, but there's no way to do that currently short of not stealing from players for 24 hours. While this isn't a huge hardship, I also don't see a reason why I shouldn't be able to upgrade from closed to guarded or even to open. I can definitely see why you would want to prevent movement in the other direction, of course. I can't even choose to keep the open stance during the 4 hour auto-open phase rather than auto-revert.
Maybe I'm missing some syntax that will let me do this without having to go cold turkey on theft for a while?
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
<<4 Hours Later
<<Open -> Change to Guarded (through the auto revert or on your own) -> Profile Locked for 24 Hours
<<2 Hours Later
<<Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open, no new lock applied since longer lock exists
<<22 Hours Later
<<You can change your profile again.
Would it be possible to have the 24 hour lock be only for reducing your profile?
My current situation:
Closed (default) -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open
4 Hours later
Open -> Change to Closed (default) via auto revert -> Profile locked for 24 hours.
I want to be in Guarded stance, but there's no way to do that currently short of not stealing from players for 24 hours. While this isn't a huge hardship, I also don't see a reason why I shouldn't be able to upgrade from closed to guarded or even to open. I can definitely see why you would want to prevent movement in the other direction, of course. I can't even choose to keep the open stance during the 4 hour auto-open phase rather than auto-revert.
Maybe I'm missing some syntax that will let me do this without having to go cold turkey on theft for a while?
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/05/2015 11:32 PM CDT
Just a heads up: at least two of the loopholes/glitches I listed previously - revert not occurring when logged out and 1-hour switching-from-Open timer preventing the 4-hour open-lock from working - are still in effect. Not trying to be a nag, just mentioning it in case you folks were under the impression you squashed them all. If you're aware and still working on fixing them, please disregard. Happy bug-hunting.
I
"I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness." - Thayet
I
"I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness." - Thayet
DR-RICINUS
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/05/2015 11:59 PM CDT
Something happening while logged out wasn't ever anything I was very concerned about. I'm not sure what would lead you to think that the change from Open timer has anything to do with or could possible prevent the 4 hour lock. If you want to elaborate, I'll look into it, otherwise things seem to be working as intended.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 12:52 AM CDT
>> Something happening while logged out wasn't ever anything I was very concerned about.
Oh. That's a little odd though, because the fact that the reversion doesn't take place if the player is logged out is a fairly easy mechanism to bypass the subsequent 24-ish-hour locked-open period from repetitive stealing, which you did say was intentional. The example timeline you gave, as an instance of what you wanted to occur, was...
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open and locked for 4 hours
4 Hours Later
Open -> Change to Guarded (through the auto revert or on your own) -> Profile Locked for 24 Hours
2 Hours Later
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open, no new lock applied since longer lock exists
22 Hours Later
You can change your profile again.
(Total time locked open: 26 hours)
However, I could easily do this...
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open and locked for 4 hours
3.99 Hours Later
Player Logs Out
5 minutes Later
Player Logs In -> still Open (no auto revert timer)
2 Hours Later
Open -> Steal -> Profile locked from changing for 4 hours
4 Hours Later
No revert occurs (was already Open) -> Manually Change Profile to Guarded
1 Hours Later
Change to Guarded takes effect -> Profile Locked for 24 Hours
(Total time locked open: 9 hours)
I mean, if you're fine with this, then it doesn't really matter, but as I said the aforementioned intentional 24-hour locked-open thing is very easily bypassed.
>> I'm not sure what would lead you to think that the change from Open timer has anything to do with or could possible prevent the 4 hour lock.
What led me to think this was that it was happening; I was able to, on several occasions, steal from a player during my change-from-Open timer, and then when the timer expired I'd be set to Guarded (or whatever) even though I'd stolen from a PC literally minutes prior. However it does appear that I jumped the gun in reporting it as still misbehaving, because it seems to be working properly now; I thought it wasn't because the messaging wasn't any different from before. My mistake; sorry about that.
I
"I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness." - Thayet
Oh. That's a little odd though, because the fact that the reversion doesn't take place if the player is logged out is a fairly easy mechanism to bypass the subsequent 24-ish-hour locked-open period from repetitive stealing, which you did say was intentional. The example timeline you gave, as an instance of what you wanted to occur, was...
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open and locked for 4 hours
4 Hours Later
Open -> Change to Guarded (through the auto revert or on your own) -> Profile Locked for 24 Hours
2 Hours Later
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open, no new lock applied since longer lock exists
22 Hours Later
You can change your profile again.
(Total time locked open: 26 hours)
However, I could easily do this...
Guarded -> Steal -> Profile Changed to Open and locked for 4 hours
3.99 Hours Later
Player Logs Out
5 minutes Later
Player Logs In -> still Open (no auto revert timer)
2 Hours Later
Open -> Steal -> Profile locked from changing for 4 hours
4 Hours Later
No revert occurs (was already Open) -> Manually Change Profile to Guarded
1 Hours Later
Change to Guarded takes effect -> Profile Locked for 24 Hours
(Total time locked open: 9 hours)
I mean, if you're fine with this, then it doesn't really matter, but as I said the aforementioned intentional 24-hour locked-open thing is very easily bypassed.
>> I'm not sure what would lead you to think that the change from Open timer has anything to do with or could possible prevent the 4 hour lock.
What led me to think this was that it was happening; I was able to, on several occasions, steal from a player during my change-from-Open timer, and then when the timer expired I'd be set to Guarded (or whatever) even though I'd stolen from a PC literally minutes prior. However it does appear that I jumped the gun in reporting it as still misbehaving, because it seems to be working properly now; I thought it wasn't because the messaging wasn't any different from before. My mistake; sorry about that.
I
"I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness." - Thayet
DR-RICINUS
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 01:06 AM CDT
It's not a 24 hour lock to Open. It's a 24 lock on changing your profile. The situation you described isn't useful compared to the original timeline because it doesn't end with Steal->Set Open as the one I listed does.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
BRYCOLE83
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 01:59 AM CDT
>> I mean, if you're fine with this, then it doesn't really matter, but as I said the aforementioned intentional 24-hour locked-open thing is very easily bypassed.
I finally see what you are saying. There is an "auto-revert" that changes you back to guarded and causes the 24-hour profile lock (from changing profile). However, if you are logged off during the 4 hour auto-revert, it doesn't trigger and you can change your profile whenever you want.
You could have made that a lot less convoluted. :P
Personally, I would think the 4 hour auto-revert causing a profile change lock (24 hour) is not intended since the player didn't active change the profile. I will be happy to log out during that 5 minute period to avoid being forced back to guarded when I go on my next (or was that first?) stealing spree. Thank you for heads up.
I finally see what you are saying. There is an "auto-revert" that changes you back to guarded and causes the 24-hour profile lock (from changing profile). However, if you are logged off during the 4 hour auto-revert, it doesn't trigger and you can change your profile whenever you want.
You could have made that a lot less convoluted. :P
Personally, I would think the 4 hour auto-revert causing a profile change lock (24 hour) is not intended since the player didn't active change the profile. I will be happy to log out during that 5 minute period to avoid being forced back to guarded when I go on my next (or was that first?) stealing spree. Thank you for heads up.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 02:08 AM CDT
>>I finally see what you are saying. There is an "auto-revert" that changes you back to guarded and causes the 24-hour profile lock (from changing profile). However, if you are logged off during the 4 hour auto-revert, it doesn't trigger and you can change your profile whenever you want.
It's also not true. The auto revert still happens, it just happens later than when you could change it yourself because you were logged off for some time.
>>Personally, I would think the 4 hour auto-revert causing a profile change lock (24 hour) is not intended since the player didn't active change the profile.
It is intended. Just a few weeks ago it was a 24 lock for the auto-revert, 48 hours for changing the profile yourself. I changed them to all be 24 hours to avoid confusion with various values. The auto-revert was added as a convenience a long time ago because it was requested by players, and it was never intended to be a method to circumvent restrictions on changing profiles regularly.
>>I will be happy to log out during that 5 minute period to avoid being forced back to guarded when I go on my next (or was that first?) stealing spree.
Ok, but just because you hear a player claim something works some particular way here doesn't make it true.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
It's also not true. The auto revert still happens, it just happens later than when you could change it yourself because you were logged off for some time.
>>Personally, I would think the 4 hour auto-revert causing a profile change lock (24 hour) is not intended since the player didn't active change the profile.
It is intended. Just a few weeks ago it was a 24 lock for the auto-revert, 48 hours for changing the profile yourself. I changed them to all be 24 hours to avoid confusion with various values. The auto-revert was added as a convenience a long time ago because it was requested by players, and it was never intended to be a method to circumvent restrictions on changing profiles regularly.
>>I will be happy to log out during that 5 minute period to avoid being forced back to guarded when I go on my next (or was that first?) stealing spree.
Ok, but just because you hear a player claim something works some particular way here doesn't make it true.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 11:15 AM CDT
>> It's not a 24 hour lock to Open. It's a 24 lock on changing your profile. The situation you described isn't useful compared to the original timeline because it doesn't end with Steal->Set Open as the one I listed does.
That statement makes me wonder if you've misunderstood my whole point, which I openly admit is entirely possible, because...
>> You could have made that a lot less convoluted. :P
Yeah... Sorry, man. I've been trying to avoid confusion, but I've clearly fostered some by accident. :( This whole system is pretty convoluted though, and I've tried to make it as clear as I can that what I've encountered seemed to be working differently than the messaging indicates, but every time I tried to clarify it got more muddled... I mean, for example, if you steal while set Guarded, wait 5 hours, and then steal again, the net result is you being locked Open for the following 23 hours, and this is apparently intended. However, if you steal while Guarded, then log out 3.9 hours later for 5 minutes, then initiate a PvP profile change and steal again, in 4 hours you'll be back to Guarded, but this is also intended. I can fully accept that the latter example is working as it should, since it's working exactly as it appears would be logically correct, but it completely bypasses the former example's intention.
To address the claim that "[t]he situation you described isn't useful compared to the original timeline," I'd say it very much is, because Timeline #1 results in the player being locked from changing his profile for 24 hours while it is set to Open, and Timeline #2 results in the player being locked from changing his profile for 24 hours while it is set to Guarded (or Closed). I can see many situations in which that could be highly useful.
>> It's also not true. The auto revert still happens, it just happens later than when you could change it yourself because you were logged off for some time.
Again, I think there's a miscommunication here somehow. The auto-revert does not happen in this scenario. If you steal from someone, and are logged out when the 4-hour lock-Open period ends, you will not revert to your former PvP Stance. That is absolutely true; the benefits of this can be debated, but the fact that you will never auto-revert from that particular stealing attempt is undeniable.
>> The auto-revert was added as a convenience a long time ago because it was requested by players, and it was never intended to be a method to circumvent restrictions on changing profiles regularly.
Again, if this is the case, then there's an issue to be addressed, because the fact that the auto-revert doesn't fire allows exactly this to happen. Hypothetically, I can be set to Closed, Guarded, and Open all within a 12-hour period due to this auto-revert not firing on logged-out characters. I'm not sure that's a very useful thing to do; my point is simply that if the intention is to restrict changing your PvP profile numerous times in a 24-hour span, this loophole does in fact allow that.
>> I will be happy to log out during that 5 minute period to avoid being forced back to guarded when I go on my next (or was that first?) stealing spree. Thank you for heads up.
Likewise. I enjoy the potentiality of PvP conflict, but I don't like being set to Open all the time because I dislike the prospect of getting ganked by someone 10x my skill while hunting or something; I actually was set PvP Open when I originally made this character but went Guarded when just such an event occurred. My primary reason for reporting this whole series of issues with PvP Stance was that I discovered them by accident, and believed that I must be abusing mechanics, since I found ways to avoid being locked Open for long stretches. Apparently though, this is working as intended. It seems a little odd to me, and it's highly inconsistent since it actually rewards players for exploiting log-off mechanics, which is normally red zone for Warning territory, but if the official ruling is that it's an intentional loophole then I'm going to keep on using it.
>> Ok, but just because you hear a player claim something works some particular way here doesn't make it true.
Granted: my claim that it works this particular way doesn't make it true. However, the fact that it does work this particular way is indisputable.
I
"I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness." - Thayet
That statement makes me wonder if you've misunderstood my whole point, which I openly admit is entirely possible, because...
>> You could have made that a lot less convoluted. :P
Yeah... Sorry, man. I've been trying to avoid confusion, but I've clearly fostered some by accident. :( This whole system is pretty convoluted though, and I've tried to make it as clear as I can that what I've encountered seemed to be working differently than the messaging indicates, but every time I tried to clarify it got more muddled... I mean, for example, if you steal while set Guarded, wait 5 hours, and then steal again, the net result is you being locked Open for the following 23 hours, and this is apparently intended. However, if you steal while Guarded, then log out 3.9 hours later for 5 minutes, then initiate a PvP profile change and steal again, in 4 hours you'll be back to Guarded, but this is also intended. I can fully accept that the latter example is working as it should, since it's working exactly as it appears would be logically correct, but it completely bypasses the former example's intention.
To address the claim that "[t]he situation you described isn't useful compared to the original timeline," I'd say it very much is, because Timeline #1 results in the player being locked from changing his profile for 24 hours while it is set to Open, and Timeline #2 results in the player being locked from changing his profile for 24 hours while it is set to Guarded (or Closed). I can see many situations in which that could be highly useful.
>> It's also not true. The auto revert still happens, it just happens later than when you could change it yourself because you were logged off for some time.
Again, I think there's a miscommunication here somehow. The auto-revert does not happen in this scenario. If you steal from someone, and are logged out when the 4-hour lock-Open period ends, you will not revert to your former PvP Stance. That is absolutely true; the benefits of this can be debated, but the fact that you will never auto-revert from that particular stealing attempt is undeniable.
>> The auto-revert was added as a convenience a long time ago because it was requested by players, and it was never intended to be a method to circumvent restrictions on changing profiles regularly.
Again, if this is the case, then there's an issue to be addressed, because the fact that the auto-revert doesn't fire allows exactly this to happen. Hypothetically, I can be set to Closed, Guarded, and Open all within a 12-hour period due to this auto-revert not firing on logged-out characters. I'm not sure that's a very useful thing to do; my point is simply that if the intention is to restrict changing your PvP profile numerous times in a 24-hour span, this loophole does in fact allow that.
>> I will be happy to log out during that 5 minute period to avoid being forced back to guarded when I go on my next (or was that first?) stealing spree. Thank you for heads up.
Likewise. I enjoy the potentiality of PvP conflict, but I don't like being set to Open all the time because I dislike the prospect of getting ganked by someone 10x my skill while hunting or something; I actually was set PvP Open when I originally made this character but went Guarded when just such an event occurred. My primary reason for reporting this whole series of issues with PvP Stance was that I discovered them by accident, and believed that I must be abusing mechanics, since I found ways to avoid being locked Open for long stretches. Apparently though, this is working as intended. It seems a little odd to me, and it's highly inconsistent since it actually rewards players for exploiting log-off mechanics, which is normally red zone for Warning territory, but if the official ruling is that it's an intentional loophole then I'm going to keep on using it.
>> Ok, but just because you hear a player claim something works some particular way here doesn't make it true.
Granted: my claim that it works this particular way doesn't make it true. However, the fact that it does work this particular way is indisputable.
I
"I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness." - Thayet
DR-RICINUS
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 02:16 PM CDT
>>This whole system is pretty convoluted though
If the constant switching back and forth from Open to Guarded, various timers to try to remember for how long you have before you can switch again, and all the other details are convoluted to you - you are a prime candidate for someone who should just remain open, both as a reason to make your life easier, and because your actions are obviously such that the crux of your behavior is better reflected being open rather than bouncing back and forth.
>>Again, I think there's a miscommunication here somehow. The auto-revert does not happen in this scenario. If you steal from someone, and are logged out when the 4-hour lock-Open period ends, you will not revert to your former PvP Stance. That is absolutely true; the benefits of this can be debated, but the fact that you will never auto-revert from that particular stealing attempt is undeniable.
There is not a miscommunication here. There is a a GM that has the ability to test your hypothetical claim easily, and has told you it is false. If you really want to continue asserting that your untested beliefs are more absolute than my testing while I sit and read the code that produces the results, then I think you need to reevaluate. Don't get me wrong, there may very well be something that causes the auto revert to shut off and not work, but the scenerio of Guarded->Steal->Wait 3.9 hours->Logout for 5 minutes->Login->No Auto Revert Ever does not do this. If you really want to test that particular scenerio yourself and let me know what you find, that would be great. Otherwise, please stop spouting your hunches as fact.
I'll give you an example that you may find truely indisputable, if it helps. On 6/18 you logged in PvP Open. A little less than an hour later, since you hadn't done any stealing, the auto-revert changed you back to Guarded. If you have logs, I'm sure you can verify this without having to take the trouble of testing it again by hand.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
If the constant switching back and forth from Open to Guarded, various timers to try to remember for how long you have before you can switch again, and all the other details are convoluted to you - you are a prime candidate for someone who should just remain open, both as a reason to make your life easier, and because your actions are obviously such that the crux of your behavior is better reflected being open rather than bouncing back and forth.
>>Again, I think there's a miscommunication here somehow. The auto-revert does not happen in this scenario. If you steal from someone, and are logged out when the 4-hour lock-Open period ends, you will not revert to your former PvP Stance. That is absolutely true; the benefits of this can be debated, but the fact that you will never auto-revert from that particular stealing attempt is undeniable.
There is not a miscommunication here. There is a a GM that has the ability to test your hypothetical claim easily, and has told you it is false. If you really want to continue asserting that your untested beliefs are more absolute than my testing while I sit and read the code that produces the results, then I think you need to reevaluate. Don't get me wrong, there may very well be something that causes the auto revert to shut off and not work, but the scenerio of Guarded->Steal->Wait 3.9 hours->Logout for 5 minutes->Login->No Auto Revert Ever does not do this. If you really want to test that particular scenerio yourself and let me know what you find, that would be great. Otherwise, please stop spouting your hunches as fact.
I'll give you an example that you may find truely indisputable, if it helps. On 6/18 you logged in PvP Open. A little less than an hour later, since you hadn't done any stealing, the auto-revert changed you back to Guarded. If you have logs, I'm sure you can verify this without having to take the trouble of testing it again by hand.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
BRYCOLE83
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 02:52 PM CDT
>> Ok, but just because you hear a player claim something works some particular way here doesn't make it true.
Haha. Good point. To be fair I've never gone on a stealing spree nor plan too, so it was mostly in jest.
>> If the constant switching back and forth from Open to Guarded, various timers to try to remember for how long you have before you can switch again, and all the other details are convoluted to you - you are a prime candidate for someone who should just remain open, both as a reason to make your life easier, and because your actions are obviously such that the crux of your behavior is better reflected being open rather than bouncing back and forth.
In before Ricinus permanently locks you PVP open!
KUYKEND9
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 03:04 PM CDT
>> If the constant switching back and forth from Open to Guarded, various timers to try to remember for how long you have before you can switch again, and all the other details are convoluted to you
It isn't convoluted to me, it's just convoluted. To be fair to the designers of the system, I think it might be more that I'm failing to properly communicate a glitch than that there are conflicting intended outcomes of the same action.
>> There is a a GM that has the ability to test your hypothetical claim easily, and has told you it is false. If you really want to continue asserting that your untested beliefs are more absolute than my testing while I sit and read the code that produces the results, then I think you need to reevaluate. Don't get me wrong, there may very well be something that causes the auto revert to shut off and not work, but the scenerio of Guarded->Steal->Wait 3.9 hours->Logout for 5 minutes->Login->No Auto Revert Ever does not do this.
It's not a hypothetical claim; I've repeatedly bypassed the auto-revert by not being logged in at the time it expires. You can tell me that I'm wrong, but I've demonstrated repeatedly that I'm correct. The above example (logging out for 5-ish minutes to prevent the auto-revert) is one I actually did yesterday. I'll cover that right here...
>> On 6/18 you logged in PvP Open. A little less than an hour later, since you hadn't done any stealing, the auto-revert changed you back to Guarded.
Sounds like in the example you're using the timer ended while I was logged in, rather than logged out, so it's not at all what I'm talking about. It's stuff like this that makes me think we've got a communication disconnect. I'm not saying that logging out while the timer is running will kill the auto-revert, I'm saying that being logged out at the exact moment when the auto-revert would have fired will keep it from ever firing at all. If you're already deep in the CCC, then pull up my logs from yesterday and try this one, instead:
On 7/5 I logged out PvP Open (locked). 10-15 minutes later I logged in, after the auto-revert had expired, and was still PvP Open with no auto-revert scheduled and no 24-hour block preventing me from changing my Profile.
In this particular example it was actually entirely on accident, and since I wasn't intentionally testing I might have some minor points wrong here, but the facts are: 1) I was PvP Guarded originally; 2) I got locked Open from stealing; 3) I was never reverted to Guarded. Add to that the fact that I was apparently logged out during the time when the auto-revert would have occurred, and that I've bypassed the auto-revert by being logged out at least three times before now, then it stands to reason that being logged out was the cause. I suppose that me being logged out could be coincidental, and that a different confounding factor is at play, but that seems fairly unlikely to me.
When you posted before that everything was working as intended now, I assumed you'd nipped this one in the bud, so I didn't think anything of it. I just happened to blow a fire ant trap when I was nearing my auto-revert, and logged out because I was dealing with something out of game and didn't want to manage the hassle. I logged back in, went and took care of my injuries, and checked my PvP stance to see if my timer had expired yet for a theft attempt I'd tried a while earlier. That's when I discovered that I was still Open, and had not been reverted like normal, nor had I been locked from changing my profile. I get that you're having trouble replicating this, and I'm not sure what you're doing differently that is causing the issue, but I too have been behind the scenes, reading the logs and looking at the code, and I know from experience that what a GM sees is not always the end-all-be-all; players seem to have a preternatural skill at breaking things. Either way, I assure you that I have reliably and consistently prevented the auto-revert from occurring while testing this system. I'm currently in a 24-hour lock on changing my profile (because I remained logged in so that the auto-revert would actually occur) and can't do any more testing for about 14 more hours, but when this expires I'll gladly repeat my steps under supervision to help you nail it down.
I also really want to express that the purpose of me testing this and reporting it is that I'm trying to help. It could be just a failing of the text-based medium in which we're communicating, but the tone of your writing seems (to me) somewhat hostile and defensive; I want to clarify that I am absolutely not trying to attack you or this system, I am simply trying to help close what I can see is a loophole, which bypasses the intention with which this system was designed. If I've misread your demeanor in any way then I apologize.
I
"I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness." - Thayet
It isn't convoluted to me, it's just convoluted. To be fair to the designers of the system, I think it might be more that I'm failing to properly communicate a glitch than that there are conflicting intended outcomes of the same action.
>> There is a a GM that has the ability to test your hypothetical claim easily, and has told you it is false. If you really want to continue asserting that your untested beliefs are more absolute than my testing while I sit and read the code that produces the results, then I think you need to reevaluate. Don't get me wrong, there may very well be something that causes the auto revert to shut off and not work, but the scenerio of Guarded->Steal->Wait 3.9 hours->Logout for 5 minutes->Login->No Auto Revert Ever does not do this.
It's not a hypothetical claim; I've repeatedly bypassed the auto-revert by not being logged in at the time it expires. You can tell me that I'm wrong, but I've demonstrated repeatedly that I'm correct. The above example (logging out for 5-ish minutes to prevent the auto-revert) is one I actually did yesterday. I'll cover that right here...
>> On 6/18 you logged in PvP Open. A little less than an hour later, since you hadn't done any stealing, the auto-revert changed you back to Guarded.
Sounds like in the example you're using the timer ended while I was logged in, rather than logged out, so it's not at all what I'm talking about. It's stuff like this that makes me think we've got a communication disconnect. I'm not saying that logging out while the timer is running will kill the auto-revert, I'm saying that being logged out at the exact moment when the auto-revert would have fired will keep it from ever firing at all. If you're already deep in the CCC, then pull up my logs from yesterday and try this one, instead:
On 7/5 I logged out PvP Open (locked). 10-15 minutes later I logged in, after the auto-revert had expired, and was still PvP Open with no auto-revert scheduled and no 24-hour block preventing me from changing my Profile.
In this particular example it was actually entirely on accident, and since I wasn't intentionally testing I might have some minor points wrong here, but the facts are: 1) I was PvP Guarded originally; 2) I got locked Open from stealing; 3) I was never reverted to Guarded. Add to that the fact that I was apparently logged out during the time when the auto-revert would have occurred, and that I've bypassed the auto-revert by being logged out at least three times before now, then it stands to reason that being logged out was the cause. I suppose that me being logged out could be coincidental, and that a different confounding factor is at play, but that seems fairly unlikely to me.
When you posted before that everything was working as intended now, I assumed you'd nipped this one in the bud, so I didn't think anything of it. I just happened to blow a fire ant trap when I was nearing my auto-revert, and logged out because I was dealing with something out of game and didn't want to manage the hassle. I logged back in, went and took care of my injuries, and checked my PvP stance to see if my timer had expired yet for a theft attempt I'd tried a while earlier. That's when I discovered that I was still Open, and had not been reverted like normal, nor had I been locked from changing my profile. I get that you're having trouble replicating this, and I'm not sure what you're doing differently that is causing the issue, but I too have been behind the scenes, reading the logs and looking at the code, and I know from experience that what a GM sees is not always the end-all-be-all; players seem to have a preternatural skill at breaking things. Either way, I assure you that I have reliably and consistently prevented the auto-revert from occurring while testing this system. I'm currently in a 24-hour lock on changing my profile (because I remained logged in so that the auto-revert would actually occur) and can't do any more testing for about 14 more hours, but when this expires I'll gladly repeat my steps under supervision to help you nail it down.
I also really want to express that the purpose of me testing this and reporting it is that I'm trying to help. It could be just a failing of the text-based medium in which we're communicating, but the tone of your writing seems (to me) somewhat hostile and defensive; I want to clarify that I am absolutely not trying to attack you or this system, I am simply trying to help close what I can see is a loophole, which bypasses the intention with which this system was designed. If I've misread your demeanor in any way then I apologize.
I
"I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness." - Thayet
DR-RICINUS
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 11:36 PM CDT
>>Sounds like in the example you're using the timer ended while I was logged in, rather than logged out, so it's not at all what I'm talking about.
>>On 7/5 I logged out PvP Open (locked). 10-15 minutes later I logged in, after the auto-revert had expired, and was still PvP Open with no auto-revert scheduled and no 24-hour block preventing me from changing my Profile.
7/5
19:12:11 Last steal attempt, 4 hour lock and auto-revert timers begins.
22:52:16 Logoff, Autorevert timer has 00:19:55 left.
23:07:16 Login, Autorevert timer still has 00:19:55 left, since this timer doesn't track while offline. 00:04:55 Remain on the lock, since it does track offline time.
23:20:20 You initiate a PvP change manually. There was 00:06:51 left before the auto revert would have kicked in. Autorevert is now ignored because you are trying to change your profile manually.
This needs to stop now please. It isn't helpful to continue posting wrong information, and if it continues I'm going to need to end the discussion in a rather abrupt and definitive manner. I'd rather not do that, so if anyone has anything new or germane to the discussion, feel free to give your thoughts. Otherwise, the issues brought up here have been exhaustively addressed, and the topics need no further attention.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
>>On 7/5 I logged out PvP Open (locked). 10-15 minutes later I logged in, after the auto-revert had expired, and was still PvP Open with no auto-revert scheduled and no 24-hour block preventing me from changing my Profile.
7/5
19:12:11 Last steal attempt, 4 hour lock and auto-revert timers begins.
22:52:16 Logoff, Autorevert timer has 00:19:55 left.
23:07:16 Login, Autorevert timer still has 00:19:55 left, since this timer doesn't track while offline. 00:04:55 Remain on the lock, since it does track offline time.
23:20:20 You initiate a PvP change manually. There was 00:06:51 left before the auto revert would have kicked in. Autorevert is now ignored because you are trying to change your profile manually.
This needs to stop now please. It isn't helpful to continue posting wrong information, and if it continues I'm going to need to end the discussion in a rather abrupt and definitive manner. I'd rather not do that, so if anyone has anything new or germane to the discussion, feel free to give your thoughts. Otherwise, the issues brought up here have been exhaustively addressed, and the topics need no further attention.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
DR-RICINUS
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/06/2015 11:59 PM CDT
Some posts were removed. sigh.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
BRYCOLE83
Re: Stealing and PvP Stance
07/07/2015 01:00 PM CDT
>> Otherwise, the issues brought up here have been exhaustively addressed, and the topics need no further attention.
Damn. Sorry you had to do all that testing Ricinus. I'm sure you would have been much happier coding up some goodies for us.
