BUUWL
Scripting policy talk
04/26/2013 09:38 PM CDT
on second thought, I probably wouldn't quit, I'd just dust off my TF scripts update them, and let em' run.
My thoughts on the policy as a whole.
Don't make AFK legal, keep it Illegal with well defined much less costly non-PERMANENT penalties, and enforce the hell out of it. I.E. more checks etc...
Something like the following with 10Xs the amount of checks currently done.
If caught scripting first offense you learn all skills 75% slower for 3 weeks paid subscription time with a 90 day probation period. More on probation in a bit.
If caught scripting second offense in the probation period the 75% penalty resets and lasts for a new total 6 weeks paid subscription time. Probation rests again for a new total of 90 days.
If caught scripting third offense in the three month probation period, 100% learning penalty 90 days, i.e. no learning.
Your probation period is always 90 days, once you dont get caught in your probation period, slate is wiped clean, and everything is reset. I.E. If caught scripting first offense you learn all skills 75% slower for 3 weeks paid subscription time with a 90 day probation period all over again.
Probation is listed on log in, no guesswork, all is transparent.
Lets also take 1-2k gold per time you get caught being AFK. This would also double every time caught in probation to discourage someone from just farming and not caring about EXP gain. (Might as well sink plats out of the system) if you don't have the money it goes into a debt that auto pays.
Thats how I'd do it, but again this is predicated on them being more vigilant and busting more people since the penalties are more minor.
- Buuwl
- Buuwl
REASONMJ
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/26/2013 10:43 PM CDT
The penalties for scripting are already extremely harsh. Losing 10% of your ranks is WAY worse than anything you listed. I'd take a 90 day penalty with zero learning any day over no learning penalty but having to spend 6+ months re-training the skills that I already had (sure, losing 10% of your skills doesn't hurt much if your skills are low - but in that case who even cares if you are scripting?)
Are there really that many people AFK scripting? Like real, long-term overnight AFK scripting? Most of the people I run into who are unresponsive and seem AFK usually end up responding 5-10 minutes later (which is risky, but technically all you need to pass scripting checks). The current penalties basically ruin your character if you ever get caught after a first warning. I'm sure there are some who get away with it, but I just don't think it's worth worrying that much about - if you keep at it too long, it's bound to catch up to you at some point
I think the current system is actually pretty good, unless the point of your suggestions is that the current system is TOO harsh
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
Are there really that many people AFK scripting? Like real, long-term overnight AFK scripting? Most of the people I run into who are unresponsive and seem AFK usually end up responding 5-10 minutes later (which is risky, but technically all you need to pass scripting checks). The current penalties basically ruin your character if you ever get caught after a first warning. I'm sure there are some who get away with it, but I just don't think it's worth worrying that much about - if you keep at it too long, it's bound to catch up to you at some point
I think the current system is actually pretty good, unless the point of your suggestions is that the current system is TOO harsh
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
BUUWL
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/27/2013 06:13 AM CDT
APU that is what I meant, make the penalties less harsh and less permanent. Sometimes it seems like they cut a leg off for shop lifting. In the end I dont really care, but at this point, I'd rather not lose any more subscribers. My suggestions would encourage people to stick out their waiting period since their character isn't ruined. I'm sure the GMs would say the games better without the cheaters anyway. Maybe that is the case, I don't know, I just play the game.
- Buuwl
- Buuwl
RAIST
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/27/2013 06:18 AM CDT
The reason it's so harsh is an attempt to discourage people from doing it, even if the chances of getting caught are low.
However, people are dumb, and will often do things regardless of the consequences as long as they think they won't get caught.
plus I'd assume there's the assumption if you've done it once, you've done it a lot and so they try to hit you for all of them at once.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
However, people are dumb, and will often do things regardless of the consequences as long as they think they won't get caught.
plus I'd assume there's the assumption if you've done it once, you've done it a lot and so they try to hit you for all of them at once.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
BUUWL
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/27/2013 06:24 AM CDT
Yeah I guess it all makes sense. Most people I know over the years who get caught, immediately click the unsubscibe button and go elsewhere. I was trying to brainstorm a way around this, that would also keep AFK from being effective. The policy as it stands may be the best route I guess. LIke I said, I just play the game, but that TF poster made me think about the policy as a whole the past few days.
- Buuwl
- Buuwl
MICHAELP2002
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/27/2013 10:50 PM CDT
Probably wouldnt want them to say have at in Prime, cause then there would be very little interaction at all in game. However, I wouldnt mind them figuring out a way to allow a prime character to transport back and forth between prime and TF, even if they had to go back and forth naked. Would allow people to script all they want in TF(prime side could consider some chaotic alternate reality), would give TF people more targets if they wanted it, and would encourage people to drop an extra $5 a month for the ability to travel between worlds to fulfill training/interaction requirements.
The only real downside, depending on how you view it, is this would allow more people to skill up to endgame faster which would crowd the few hunting areas more, or lead to more interaction as people no longer need to skill up to compete.
C0UGAR
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/29/2013 01:26 AM CDT
Frankly, if someone gets hit with afk penalty, it means its their second one in a certain amount of time, and I dont have a problem with them quiting because of it. I dont want to lose people from the game either, but I also dont like people cheating and getting an unfair advantage because they dont get caught afk scripting, or if they do, its a slap on the wrist. I'd rather lose those players, because they arent playing within the best interest of them game anyway.
Falker
Falker
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/29/2013 02:11 PM CDT
>>because they arent playing within the best interest of them game anyway.
I don't know if that's exactly true. Personally, I'd rather have someone who scripts 22 hours a day AFK, and then when they are ATK they spend 2 hours roleplaying and not worrying about the numbers going up.
It sure beats having people that can only play 2 hours a day, scripting in Gryphons, Dillos, Sprites, etc while they somewhat watch the screen and surf the boards, news, or watch Walking Dead, etc.
But that's just me, I completely understand that it negates people's ability to compare themselves to others. It would also keep pushing people towards an endgame that doesn't exist, and that's really why they don't want people to script 24/7.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
I don't know if that's exactly true. Personally, I'd rather have someone who scripts 22 hours a day AFK, and then when they are ATK they spend 2 hours roleplaying and not worrying about the numbers going up.
It sure beats having people that can only play 2 hours a day, scripting in Gryphons, Dillos, Sprites, etc while they somewhat watch the screen and surf the boards, news, or watch Walking Dead, etc.
But that's just me, I completely understand that it negates people's ability to compare themselves to others. It would also keep pushing people towards an endgame that doesn't exist, and that's really why they don't want people to script 24/7.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
YAMCER
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/29/2013 02:54 PM CDT
<<Personally, I'd rather have someone who scripts 22 hours a day AFK, and then when they are ATK they spend 2 hours roleplaying and not worrying about the numbers going up.>>
As I see it, this mentality has a couple issues. Firstly is that a person who afk scripting for 22 hours is trying their hardest to min/max their time and RP is pretty much the antithesis of min/max-ing. Secondly, if I've got a RP plot going with said person any social value drops to zero 92% of the potential interaction time.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
As I see it, this mentality has a couple issues. Firstly is that a person who afk scripting for 22 hours is trying their hardest to min/max their time and RP is pretty much the antithesis of min/max-ing. Secondly, if I've got a RP plot going with said person any social value drops to zero 92% of the potential interaction time.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/29/2013 05:21 PM CDT
>>As I see it, this mentality has a couple issues.
If someone is a "min/max"er, then you aren't going to get their 2 hours no matter what you do, they are watching the numbers go up, and are probably skirting the edge of AFK/ATK most of the time anyway.
Then you have the RP crew, that have 0.5 to 168 hours a week to play and they RP because, darn it, that's how they roll and the numbers will be what they will be.
I'm talking about the people that have maybe 4-8 hours a week to play. Would they convert "Training time" to "RP time" if they didn't have to choice? If I knew Diggan was still gaining on his foes 6-10 hour a day as the scripts ran, I would probably be a lot more inclined to spar, talk trash around the green, chase a few necros, and poke fun at the moonies when I did have an hour or so to kill after work.
A minor problem with DR is the way training is juxtaposed to RP. In {most} tabletop games the RP comes from everyone going out and doing stuff, and you get EXP for doing that stuff together.
In DR, combats are a pain in groups (although getting better), and there really isn't anything else you can together that also awards exp.
The game itself has put people in two boxes, you either Train or Roleplay. <-- Yes, I know you can Train, RP & Drain, and repeat, but if your RP is going to include a chance for death, people get awfully touchy about getting killed when their pools are full (a lot less touchy now with the recent changes, but still).
It would be interesting to see the task system, or a quest system put in place where you can get EXP as a group (like the treasure maps give an individual player when you complete). A group of thieves could band together to go crack a safe in X building, and if they do it successfully it fills thievery, stealth, and locksmithing. Sorry, end of tangent.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
If someone is a "min/max"er, then you aren't going to get their 2 hours no matter what you do, they are watching the numbers go up, and are probably skirting the edge of AFK/ATK most of the time anyway.
Then you have the RP crew, that have 0.5 to 168 hours a week to play and they RP because, darn it, that's how they roll and the numbers will be what they will be.
I'm talking about the people that have maybe 4-8 hours a week to play. Would they convert "Training time" to "RP time" if they didn't have to choice? If I knew Diggan was still gaining on his foes 6-10 hour a day as the scripts ran, I would probably be a lot more inclined to spar, talk trash around the green, chase a few necros, and poke fun at the moonies when I did have an hour or so to kill after work.
A minor problem with DR is the way training is juxtaposed to RP. In {most} tabletop games the RP comes from everyone going out and doing stuff, and you get EXP for doing that stuff together.
In DR, combats are a pain in groups (although getting better), and there really isn't anything else you can together that also awards exp.
The game itself has put people in two boxes, you either Train or Roleplay. <-- Yes, I know you can Train, RP & Drain, and repeat, but if your RP is going to include a chance for death, people get awfully touchy about getting killed when their pools are full (a lot less touchy now with the recent changes, but still).
It would be interesting to see the task system, or a quest system put in place where you can get EXP as a group (like the treasure maps give an individual player when you complete). A group of thieves could band together to go crack a safe in X building, and if they do it successfully it fills thievery, stealth, and locksmithing. Sorry, end of tangent.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
YAMCER
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/29/2013 05:57 PM CDT
<<I'm talking about the people that have maybe 4-8 hours a week to play. Would they convert "Training time" to "RP time" if they didn't have to choice? If I knew Diggan was still gaining on his foes 6-10 hour a day as the scripts ran, I would probably be a lot more inclined to spar, talk trash around the green, chase a few necros, and poke fun at the moonies when I did have an hour or so to kill after work. >>
The one upmanship mentality is what drives people to 24/7 afk scripting. Your "foes" would be thinking the same thing and push it to 10-12 hours of training. You go, well now I should do 14-16. Ect. Also the people you talk trash to or chase or poke fun at might want more interaction during your "training" hours. Now they get afk zombie who doesn't enhance the game atmosphere one iota.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
The one upmanship mentality is what drives people to 24/7 afk scripting. Your "foes" would be thinking the same thing and push it to 10-12 hours of training. You go, well now I should do 14-16. Ect. Also the people you talk trash to or chase or poke fun at might want more interaction during your "training" hours. Now they get afk zombie who doesn't enhance the game atmosphere one iota.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
BUUWL
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/29/2013 07:23 PM CDT
I love how this topic always veers into crazy tangents. Cool, I'll just drop it nevermind, leave things as they are.
- Buuwl
- Buuwl
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/29/2013 07:34 PM CDT
>>Also the people you talk trash to or chase or poke fun at might want more interaction during your "training" hours. Now they get afk zombie who doesn't enhance the game atmosphere one iota.
You are saying if you can't RP with someone 100% of the time they are in game, then you don't want them to RP with them at all? I think that's taking the argument to the Nth degree, but I could see how it would feel that you are being forced to RP on the "scripters" schedule. Even though, that's the case whether someone is scripting or not.
>>The one upmanship mentality is what drives people to 24/7 afk scripting.
Yep, I get it. But, my argument is that those people aren't the people at which the policy changed is aimed. If someone is a min/max player they are going to be a min/max player whether or not this policy changes.
I can completely see your side. Truth be known, I don't think it's an idea that I'm 100% behind either. In reality, a change to the scripting policy probably isn't going to happen for hundreds of reasons. I do believe, however, that RP & Training are for the most part mutually exclusive and that is a problem, which may or may not be helped with a change to scripting policy.
And, while I'm on this little soap box, I will say that if you are going to have a scripting policy, it should be enforced. Right now, people script with impunity. At the same time, I can see where Simu is coming from on this. They want to enforce the policy, but every time they levy a penalty they risk losing $10+ a month. Not really something you want to enforce while struggling to keep a player base.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
You are saying if you can't RP with someone 100% of the time they are in game, then you don't want them to RP with them at all? I think that's taking the argument to the Nth degree, but I could see how it would feel that you are being forced to RP on the "scripters" schedule. Even though, that's the case whether someone is scripting or not.
>>The one upmanship mentality is what drives people to 24/7 afk scripting.
Yep, I get it. But, my argument is that those people aren't the people at which the policy changed is aimed. If someone is a min/max player they are going to be a min/max player whether or not this policy changes.
I can completely see your side. Truth be known, I don't think it's an idea that I'm 100% behind either. In reality, a change to the scripting policy probably isn't going to happen for hundreds of reasons. I do believe, however, that RP & Training are for the most part mutually exclusive and that is a problem, which may or may not be helped with a change to scripting policy.
And, while I'm on this little soap box, I will say that if you are going to have a scripting policy, it should be enforced. Right now, people script with impunity. At the same time, I can see where Simu is coming from on this. They want to enforce the policy, but every time they levy a penalty they risk losing $10+ a month. Not really something you want to enforce while struggling to keep a player base.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/29/2013 07:42 PM CDT
>>I love how this topic always veers into crazy tangents. Cool, I'll just drop it nevermind, leave things as they are.
I think because the scripting policy is a very dark grey place for both players and "the man".
It affects so many aspects of the game that it's far too encompassing.
Just off the top of my head things that this affects:
1) managing a player base where 90% of the people are at the end of a game with no end
2) resources of having more people in game for longer periods
3) player balance of scripters vs. non
4) the economy and what 24/7 plat production would do to an already inflated economy with no plat sinks
5) player interaction, inevitably, with learning rates and guild reqs, you'd end up with mostly HLCs and Newbs with very little middle.
6) environment development you'd need many more rooms with much better spawn mechanics and higher level critters to avoid crowding and fighting
I love the discussion, I think in a game like this you need to have discussions about policy, but this is a pretty broad one?
I apologize I borked your thread.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
I think because the scripting policy is a very dark grey place for both players and "the man".
It affects so many aspects of the game that it's far too encompassing.
Just off the top of my head things that this affects:
1) managing a player base where 90% of the people are at the end of a game with no end
2) resources of having more people in game for longer periods
3) player balance of scripters vs. non
4) the economy and what 24/7 plat production would do to an already inflated economy with no plat sinks
5) player interaction, inevitably, with learning rates and guild reqs, you'd end up with mostly HLCs and Newbs with very little middle.
6) environment development you'd need many more rooms with much better spawn mechanics and higher level critters to avoid crowding and fighting
I love the discussion, I think in a game like this you need to have discussions about policy, but this is a pretty broad one?
I apologize I borked your thread.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
ROBERTDH
Re: Scripting policy talk
04/30/2013 12:26 PM CDT
>You are saying if you can't RP with someone 100% of the time they are in game, then you don't want them to RP with them at all? I think that's taking the argument to the Nth degree, but I could see how it would feel that you are being forced to RP on the "scripters" schedule. Even though, that's the case whether someone is scripting or not.
I don't think it's even about RP. RP is a fun, but not core, part of the game. It's fine if you want to opt-out or rp-lite it. But I feel strongly that opting-out of even petty social interaction is massively missing the point of being logged in to a multiplayer game.
There's room for players who want to play without interaction, but I think it's more than fair if other players proceed to ignore their existence. It's basically what they're doing to the entire game.
I don't think it's even about RP. RP is a fun, but not core, part of the game. It's fine if you want to opt-out or rp-lite it. But I feel strongly that opting-out of even petty social interaction is massively missing the point of being logged in to a multiplayer game.
There's room for players who want to play without interaction, but I think it's more than fair if other players proceed to ignore their existence. It's basically what they're doing to the entire game.
BUUWL
STILVA
Re: Scripting policy talk
07/06/2013 01:55 AM CDT
>Are there really that many people AFK scripting? Like real, long-term overnight AFK scripting?
I know three miners that, if you logged in any hour of the day, they'd be on. One of them dropped their pickaxe (maybe tingle?) and was clawing at the ground. When I returned the next morning they were clawing at the ground still.
I can also point you in the direction of a Necromancer who actually afkscripts a VERY popular hunting area - But he does it while pvp open, so props to him on that I guess.
There was 'someone' in Sky Giants that was quite notorious for doing it, even hunted into other people's rooms and looted their crap. He vanished lately, so I'm unsure if someone busted him or if he moved on to tougher creatures.
>if your RP is going to include a chance for death, people get awfully touchy about getting killed when their pools are full (a lot less touchy now with the recent changes, but still).
I still vote for Rezz returning ALL learnrate and just cost a favor or such. Maybe raise the favor costs every x deaths (10, 20, whatever), but do -something- to allow the return of learnrates. With all due respect to the GMs, dying at 34/34 and being revived at 5/34 is a slap to the face and all it does is save most adventurers 3-4 minutes of a 30-minute hunting trip.
>And, while I'm on this little soap box, I will say that if you are going to have a scripting policy, it should be enforced. Right now, people script with impunity. At the same time, I can see where Simu is coming from on this. They want to enforce the policy, but every time they levy a penalty they risk losing $10+ a month. Not really something you want to enforce while struggling to keep a player base.
That is, fortunately or not, why they may want to change the penalties incurred. If they're afraid to enforce it, then whats the point? It's technically lose-lose...there are plenty of people who don't afk script but when they see people who do afk script and go unpunished, there is the chance that THEY quit. AFKScripting does ruin quite a few things for others, and anyone who disagrees is either oblivious or putting up a bad defense for 'someone' they know.
I know three miners that, if you logged in any hour of the day, they'd be on. One of them dropped their pickaxe (maybe tingle?) and was clawing at the ground. When I returned the next morning they were clawing at the ground still.
I can also point you in the direction of a Necromancer who actually afkscripts a VERY popular hunting area - But he does it while pvp open, so props to him on that I guess.
There was 'someone' in Sky Giants that was quite notorious for doing it, even hunted into other people's rooms and looted their crap. He vanished lately, so I'm unsure if someone busted him or if he moved on to tougher creatures.
>if your RP is going to include a chance for death, people get awfully touchy about getting killed when their pools are full (a lot less touchy now with the recent changes, but still).
I still vote for Rezz returning ALL learnrate and just cost a favor or such. Maybe raise the favor costs every x deaths (10, 20, whatever), but do -something- to allow the return of learnrates. With all due respect to the GMs, dying at 34/34 and being revived at 5/34 is a slap to the face and all it does is save most adventurers 3-4 minutes of a 30-minute hunting trip.
>And, while I'm on this little soap box, I will say that if you are going to have a scripting policy, it should be enforced. Right now, people script with impunity. At the same time, I can see where Simu is coming from on this. They want to enforce the policy, but every time they levy a penalty they risk losing $10+ a month. Not really something you want to enforce while struggling to keep a player base.
That is, fortunately or not, why they may want to change the penalties incurred. If they're afraid to enforce it, then whats the point? It's technically lose-lose...there are plenty of people who don't afk script but when they see people who do afk script and go unpunished, there is the chance that THEY quit. AFKScripting does ruin quite a few things for others, and anyone who disagrees is either oblivious or putting up a bad defense for 'someone' they know.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Scripting policy talk
07/06/2013 02:25 AM CDT
>>With all due respect to the GMs, dying at 34/34 and being revived at 5/34 is a slap to the face and all it does is save most adventurers 3-4 minutes of a 30-minute hunting trip.
Well, being raised with a decent number of favors after dying with 34/34 leaves you with 9/34 not 5/34. MF does a bit better than that number. I'm not sure how this addition is a slap to the face, considering that prior to its arrival you would have had nothing when you were raised. It is set where it is for right now, but other methods to increase these percentages could come along at some point.
AGM Ricinus
Dev Systems
Cleric Advocate
Well, being raised with a decent number of favors after dying with 34/34 leaves you with 9/34 not 5/34. MF does a bit better than that number. I'm not sure how this addition is a slap to the face, considering that prior to its arrival you would have had nothing when you were raised. It is set where it is for right now, but other methods to increase these percentages could come along at some point.
AGM Ricinus
Dev Systems
Cleric Advocate
DARKEVILWHATEVER
BUUWL
Re: Scripting policy talk
07/08/2013 01:18 PM CDT
Is this from the post from 3 months ago? Cool.
- Buuwl
- Buuwl
DARKEVILWHATEVER
STILVA
Re: Scripting policy talk
07/17/2013 01:23 PM CDT
>I'm not sure how this addition is a slap to the face, considering that prior to its arrival you would have had nothing when you were raised
Sorry if my post came/comes off as disrespectful, I know you guys have a lot on your plate.
The exp return...many still depart immediately, unless they want to try to get a spell scroll back. MF costing a favor on top of the not-so-great returns makes it worse than being Rezzed in my opinion (unless that's a bug?), because the learnrate I had to torch just to get that favor back was far greater than the amount it saved me.
I'd rather the reward be great and the process itself get more increasingly difficult than how it is now. If it (some better return) comes in the form of a feat that'd be great, but as-is it would seem that Rezz is still laughed off by quite a few people.
Sorry if my post came/comes off as disrespectful, I know you guys have a lot on your plate.
The exp return...many still depart immediately, unless they want to try to get a spell scroll back. MF costing a favor on top of the not-so-great returns makes it worse than being Rezzed in my opinion (unless that's a bug?), because the learnrate I had to torch just to get that favor back was far greater than the amount it saved me.
I'd rather the reward be great and the process itself get more increasingly difficult than how it is now. If it (some better return) comes in the form of a feat that'd be great, but as-is it would seem that Rezz is still laughed off by quite a few people.
