hmm... i think that is very unlikely to happen. If you're worried that someone might abuse your character while you're sleeping just log off.

You're much more likely to be caught in the middle of an invasion and killed in an out of the way location than you are of helping someone gain more than 10% in stealing skill while you sleep.

There are still two reasons to stay in game sleeping:

1) It drops your mind state from frozen -> clear. Being logged in not only runs this timer, but the related timers that get you to go clear->fluid->murky more quickly.

2) Staying in game and allowing absorption is faster than the absorption logged out. If you're not going to be logged out for 8 hours (or you have a warning), it is beneficial to stay logged in for field xp drain.

I commonly leaved my character logged in (and allow myself to idle out) to at least run down the fluid->clear related timers somewhat.

>>The game does automatically boot someone who is unresponsive, so unless they are scripting somehow they can't remain in class indefinately. However, I know plenty of folks, myself included, who will listen to classes on a slow night and eventually get sidetracked doing something else. Are we to no longer be allowed this leisure?

This "leisure" was never allowed under the old policy, either. The bulk of the actual policy hasn't changed aside from some re-wording for clarity's sake; essentially only the penalties are different.

~player of Gulphphunger

<<The exact same harm there is in allowing someone dozing off late at night or some such to combat script or run routes, learning a bit more from their actions before fully retiring for the night.>>

In these cases, however, the player is scripting and thus this keeps one logged in almost indefinately. All forms of scripting do, and I can see why that is problematic. The learning can continue unsupervised and without effort conceivably for as long as the servers remain available.

In the scenario I described, however, there is a definite amount of time after which the player is logged off for inactivity. There is no purposeful attempt to bypass or exploit game mechanics, there is no running of a script, there is no ill intent. Am I to be expected to have the presence of mind to actively enter sleep mode, or stop listening to a class, or log off entirely every time I look away to some other matter outside of the game, due to risk of my distraction?

If the answer is yes, so be it. It's certainly within my power to put forth the extra effort and discipline needed to remember to cancel out of classes when not watching my screen closely. It strikes me as an inconvenience, and if enforced I would see it as adhering to the letter of the law rather than to the spirit, but it's not my call by any means.

I adamantly oppose scripting without monitoring. I frown heavily upon exploitation and unfair advantages. I cannot condone those who strive to cheat and purposefully manipulate the mechanics of a game system. I understand entirely why this clarification has come about, and I support it in its spirit. But I would urge you to consider with care those situations where someone, without intent, meets the technical qualifications of a violation, without meeting the spiritual and intential qualifications of such.

At the very least, might I suggest an inactivity timer be put into place? If the time between last command input and logoff due to inactivity is too long to allow for a player to learn passively in, perhaps have a player's experience gain freeze automatically after a shorter period of time? Thus, someone who is listening to a class and forgets to leave that class during a time of AFK inactivity would spend at most a few minutes learning from the class, before their gains would freeze and they would simply absorb their current field experience thereafter.

<<Am I to be expected to have the presence of mind to actively enter sleep mode, or stop listening to a class, or log off entirely every time I look away to some other matter outside of the game, due to risk of my distraction?

Yes.

<<But I would urge you to consider with care those situations where someone, without intent, meets the technical qualifications of a violation, without meeting the spiritual and intential qualifications of such.

The GMs have zero chance of being able to determine this.

__________________________________________

This is basically the crux of the problem for us. We have no way to determine why you (generically speaking) are doing what you are. Did you glance away for a minute? Answer a phone call? Deliberately go and cook dinner for 30 minutes while you avoided the boring part of the game? All we can determine is if you respond to us or not and our decision has to then be based purely upon that outcome.

GM Oolan Jeel

Utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!

<<If someone goes out on a shoplifting run, fills up the secondary pool, it is considered AFK experience gain to then go into an out of the way place to let the secondary pool drain into the primary pool and into ranks, correct?>>

correct. The secondary pool is active EXP bits.


Yamcer

---

"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

<<What legitimate harm is there in allowing someone dozing off late at night or some such to linger in their thoughts a short while, learning a bit more from their class before fully retiring for the night?>>

>>The exact same harm there is in allowing someone dozing off late at night or some such to combat script or run routes, learning a bit more from their actions before fully retiring for the night.

My concern is not with AFK activity under this policy but getting discoed in a learning situation, like a class or even hunting.

In your example, if someone discos then their script stops, so no learning going on there.

How is a GM supposed to tell the difference between someone who is AFK in a class and letting themselves get dumped for inactivity or learning defenses in combat with a trigger to feign disco on script-check and someone who has discoed and not been dropped yet?

I'd really hate to get script-checked when I'm not even connected to the game and come back to find some pretty nasty penalties and a warning and of course no one will believe the excuses, because we have lost the benefit of the doubt.

Please explain where I am missing something here.

-pete

>>How is a GM supposed to tell the difference between someone who is AFK in a class and letting themselves get dumped for inactivity or learning defenses in combat with a trigger to feign disco on script-check and someone who has discoed and not been dropped yet?

>>Please explain where I am missing something here.

Well, in short, to me it boils down to three things.

-I think the GMs know that discos can happen
-I don't think they are dying to warn and penalize the player base at large
-This part of the policy is the same as it has been for years, and we're still here.

As such, while I don't have a red name and may not be able to completely assuage your concerns, I feel confident enough to say "don't worry too much about this."

To quote a relevant portion of the new policy:

"Warnings for using triggers, running scripts, or any other activities while being unresponsive to the gaming environment are based on the Staff's observation of the character, and the Staff's judgment may vary from instance to instance; therefore each instance will be judged independently."

Note: it does not say "...while being unresponsive to the gaming environment will automatically result in a penalty."

That's just my opinion on the matter, of course.

~player of Gulphphunger

>>Still, what then of my suggestion for an inactivity safeguard system? I imagine if it were feasible to add, it would save GMs a lot of manual efforts later on.

There's already an inactivity safe guard. Just make sure you are toggled to the short time. The chances of you getting script checked and failing in the 5 min or so before you get logged are minimal

>>If you're ATK and you disco, you will more than likely do your best to reconnect as quickly as possible.

Some reasons for disco don't always make it easy to reconnect, such as power outages, computer, router, or ISP problems. I've been through all of these while playing over the years.

Anyhow, I believe that GMs will give most players the benefit of the doubt if there isn't a pattern of suspicious behavior.

I'd just hate to see someone get nailed for something that is no fault of their own. We've all seen how zero-tolerance rules usually mean zero common sense.

-pete

When you're ghosting, you're not sending commands to the game to keep yourself active. If you're not doing that, then you have nothing to worry about.

Really, you're making it sound so much worse than it is -- the means of determination haven't changed, just the result.

SGM Riel Mystsong,
CE Team Leader

>>Deliberately go and cook dinner for 30 minutes while you avoided the boring part of the game?

Isn't that part of why people script and/or lose attention in the first place?

>>Deliberately go and cook dinner for 30 minutes while you avoided the boring part of the game?

>>Isn't that part of why people script and/or lose attention in the first place?

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. What I meant was whatever portion of the game that person conciders to be boring. Not everyone agrees on this detail though there is often a good deal of overlap which we are trying to reduce as we tackle mumified systems.

GM Oolan Jeel

"One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs." Robert Firth

I found myself nodding a little last night while testing out some new combat scripts I've written up, and was about to go the usual route of turning off the scripts just to be safe when a thought struck me. A little quick work with google and I had a solution: now my scripts regularly play a catchy little song clip I dug up:

Ta ra ra boom de ay,
Did you get yours today?
I got mine yesterday,
That's why I walk this way.

I'm pleased to report no further sleepiness issues while running those scripts, and recommend this method to anyone who has scripts that involve lots of loops. It gets a tad annoying after awhile, and I'll probably replace some of the clips, but it sure is effective.


XXXXX: Wait... you wear heavy plate, use a shield, and don't steal? Why not just roll a Paladin?
Me: Because I don't think my sudden urges to flip out and kill stuff fit the Paladin mentality very well.

When ya tire of that, get Banana Phone!

This one is done.


Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.