After glancing through some of this thread on grave robbing, I decided to note a few things. First of all, as I'm sure has been noted, DR is a game which should be focusing toward providing for a fun experience to the majority of it's players. Unfortunately for those who enjoy graverobbing(ignoring the reason why for the moment), the majority of the players on this game would prefer that someone not pilfer an item they've worked hard on getting.

Therefore graverobbing will likely never become any more sanctioned than it is already and why it's likely it'll be as restricted as it currently is.

And that's fine with me. Personally, I would rather not have some punk, for their own enjoyment or profit, stealing an item that I spent(weeks, months, years?) time working on getting. Be it a bit of fluff or an effective weapon or piece of armor. Sentimentality is a human emotion that defies logic and cries of "but it's just a game". As well, with some of the more verbed items and alterations, they're made a part of the character's IC RP. Thus stealing them is ruining the person's ability to enjoy their character as customized and forcing them to slog through whatever work it took to get the item in the first place to replace it(assuming it can be replaced).

That, but against the enjoyment of a scant few in graverobbing leaves no room for contest and graverobbing will lose every time. I'm sorry if that is a bummer for some of you but.. well, it's just a game after all.

<<Do you repeatedly steal even when you've been caught on the ferry from 20th circlers just because you can Schvartz? I'm sure you don't, it's really just boring doing that.>>

not to mention it doesn't teach for crap.

heh.

But,

1.usually I don't steal on the ferry.... no place to escape in the event that you do get caught.

2. I dont pick my targets based on circle, i pick 'em based on coinage & location. usually traders have been my target of choice. I don't pick on people hunting, whether it be goblins or adan'f; and I usually steal in those locations that make it easier for me <i.e. in town> by the mechanics developed for my guild to do so.

3. I try not to steal from empaths except during festival times when everyone loads up their empath "relatives" with coins. Everyone is a target at festival time.

And also there is another significant difference. There is skill involved. The true thief, imho, steals for coinage, and tries not to get caught, and does everything to train himself/herself to be better at that craft. There is a stealing skill in the game, thievery is condoned by my guild, and my guild leaders tell me to do more of it if I were to fall behind in the skill.

Anyone out of the character manager can graverob, it takes no skill.

However - this may or may not change when necromancers walk the lands. However, I believe that graverobbery will continue to be seperate and differenciated in policy from the necro that may decide to take the corpse of Joe Paladins left leg for .... whatever evil reason. :-)
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

Basically Graverobbing needs to be added to the "accuse" function.


---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

I can think of 2 things which could be added to make GR-ing more conforming with policy.

1. adding it to the 'in-town' accusal-justice system.

2. for out of town graverobbers, only 1 guild, and 1 guild only has an ability to be able to punish graverobbers in any way. And thats the Thieves, and they can only utilize this ability on their own members. And only if they have a good reputation with their guild at the time. <haven't been accused of pilfering etc too much lately>. And its on a timer, just like the graverobbed item itself. This would need to be expanded to either enable the same thieves that already have the ability to utilize it on non-thief-guild-members, or perhaps let Paladins get a similar ability to utilize it on the other folks.

Or else change the policy to where anyone and everyone would have "consent" on the graverobber for as long as they held the item in question - not only the victim. Or the victim could designate a champion or small group to fight on their behalf.


---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

I too definitely am anxiously awaiting necromancers and what is deciding along the lines of your thought. I do disagree though, there IS skill to Graverobbing, and you cannot do it if you are new to the realms. It's like PVP, ranks are a major part, but also a major part is the SKILL of each person, how well they fight that matters.

In response to your numbers:
1. Like I said, it's just absurd to do so, not worth it. Just like graverobbing items of only sentimental value.
2. I don't pick my targets on basis of circle either, I go by how much cash they have worth of item on them.
3. I try not to graverob empaths as well, unless they deserve it in my book. It's the same story as festivals for you. The protection empaths enjoy is subjective to them not asking for it.

The skill in graverobbing is there, it is just not one you can train to gain TDPs. You can practice just like a military order practices maneuvers against a non-existant enemy, but never gains ranks. While your thief practices the art of never being caught, mine practices the art of escape after being caught and sneaking around now that he knows his name is on "the list."

-Previous Player of Fenildur Enildurson

Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039

<<~1st note :Many find an invasion as it springs up around them....while they have thier best weapons/armor on(An its a rare player me thinks that carries several sets of plaitmail on them for different instances of fighting)>>

Armor is quite a bit safer than a weapon. It's in no immediate danger when you die. With that said, anyone who DEPARTS mid invasion with their fancy armor on is, indeed, a moron.

<<~2nd note :My comments were not advicating the End of GR for those dapper 'thrill-seekers', if in fact the ajoining words and ideas were read, that would have been evident. But rather ideas were given, so both sides of the fence had better chances and more RP oppertunities (if in fact you care to RP at all)>>

If, in fact, the adjoining words and ideas were presented in a legible fashion, they might be read.

<<~3rd note :Yes I understand that if you know you are going into an invasion, the best way to secure your favorite weapon(perhaps a special weapon a hero wishes associated with their name.) is to vault it... just pointing out how non-plussed it is to gain a 'grand-weapon' something which to 'defend' the realms with...yet having the driving need, lest one become a moron , to rarely use a weapon you spent plats and plats on. Just a sad commentary, in my opinion.>>

Again: You are free to use it whenever you want. You simply have to simultaneously accept the risk associated with that. Someone ganks it? Tough. Take it up with them instead of crying about how unfair it is that your magical sword of uberness that meant the world to you was stolen, when you didn't even make a very good effort to protect it.

<<~4th note :If in Fact ""anyone who uses their best gear in an invasion situation is a moron.""" should hold true to your(as sadly I belive even GMs 'suggest' is the way to go.. just so much they can do with the mechs the way they are * shrugs *) way of thinking, then perhaps the US Military should go back to issuing sling-shots and wooden shields to our Troops(defending and away) LOL (Agin as in previous posts, pleeeeeez pleeeeeeez note da sarcasm ;) )>>

...Actually, if you bothered to actually think for a moment, no one was suggesting that anyone use ineffective gear.

The gear the military issues to foot soldiers? Guess what! It's essentially the equivalent of a crossing broadsword. It's standard issue gear. It's not an ancient weapon of power. It's not a rare antique. Absolutely NONE of it is unique. Weapons get lost on the battle field? No one cares. They're mass produced and there is nothing special about them from one to the next.

Theelos, I hate to sound rude, but your posts lately have been fairly unorganized as to promote easy understanding of where you're quoting and where you are speaking. I'm not saying this as an attack on you so much as I am saying I am occasionally having difficulty in separating what you are quoting and what you are saying. Please in the future could you organize your posts a bit more? The last one was completely fine, but the others before that were a bit jumbled. I think that is what Mors was addressing when he said "not legible." I know they confused me a little bit.
As to your ideas.
1. No. Not just instantly should you know who took your item. I would maybe be in favor of a collaborative effort between a few characters. Your requiring the help of a Cleric and a Moon Mage for instance would satisfy me. Maybe the cleric traces the spirit of the taint and the Moon Mage locates who the person is. More joint work between guilds would be excellent for this.
2. Guarding graves I don't think is needed. There are already enough ways to stop graverobbing. I haven't even gotten a successful mark in about two weeks of trying, and that's WITH the invasions killing people left and right. People are routinely glyphed or rezzed, it's near impossible to lead a life as a graverobber as it is, making it harder is NOT what is needed.
3. In all seriousness, these mistakes don't occur too often, and when they do usually they're fixed near immediately. I wouldn't mind having to type get X from Johnston grave though, just a little bit more to type, not a problem.

Fact of the matter is Theelos, a person is not a moron just because he uses his forged glaes blade-o-doom in defending the town during an invasion. He is a moron if he expects no one to try and nab it. People are ungrateful that he is saving them, he should know that by now. He should use his super blade by all means granted he knows he's taking the risk of a stray arrow catching him with him falling dead and being drug off and someone sticking his sword in their pack to sell later. My comp professor would smack me for that last sentence, but it gets the point accross.

-Previous Player of Fenildur Enildurson

P.S. Hey Mors, if you see this, send me an IM sometime to discuss a few things if ya don't mind. AIM is Fenildur.

Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039

In the end GRing will continue as long as GMs promote it.... I just think a few mechanics could be introduced to actually help 'policy' and provide further depth to RP and the Fun of all in the Realms... not just a small majority that seems to enjoy GRing just for the pleasure they get from Knowingly... premeditatedly.. ruining another 'Paying Players'(ie:real persons') Fun... under the premise of "Well the GMs said we could." and other such comments as, "hunting is boring."
Have you ever tried picking the pocket of a person who is being guarded.... why is that such a bad idea for graves....or do you think that is an unreasonable 'risk' or 'chalange' you would not wish to take, to rob from a guarded induvidual ?


~End of rambling on this issue...as it goes nowhere except under a pile of negative posts.

>>>First to Amagaim. Hunting in DR carries the risk of death at all times. It is again risk vs. reward.

First off, tell me this. What is the "reward" in being a victim of graverobbing, aside from being able to actually use the gear that their characters possess, at least up until the point of their character's death? In this state, it's risk versus risk for all but the graverobber. Only to them is it a risk v reward situation.

>>>(btw, kinda certain here that the more characters in the area, the higher the gen rate multiplier)

Precisely why some of the low population areas have the attraction. For a vast majority of the hunting areas, more hunters = more critters, less hunters = less critters. And for those that do not desire to be in high swarm areas, those areas with low populations are gold. If my original statement was less than clear, then read that sentence as being a correction/clarification.

>>>For one person digging alone using a shovel it'll take 10-20 minutes depending on how long the grave has been there.

Incorrect. I've dug and emptied two graves in Sicle Grove for those that had to take the ferry back over from Haven, and completed the entire process before they got back, which is at most 12 minutes. Admittedly, the people in question were my hunting partners for that trip, (who would've died yet again from the environmental effects of the area due to low vitality) but they departed without granting any form of system-recognized consent, making it just as hard for me as for an actual graverobber.

>>>The system just might win example where you're competing against the system is false. The system winning also puts you at risk to those who would rob you when you die. [snip] You are not playing a game of "beat the computer monsters" when you sign onto DR.

Following that up with the statement of "a game in which you can hunt those monsters if you want, or you can become a healer, or a thieving graverobber" seems a bit incongruous, don't you think?

>>>I STILL can't show my face in Crossing without some guy tracking my bum down and trying to shoot me in the face when I haven't even SEEN them in weeks or monthes!

Sounds to me like you're complaining about a system of socially imposed penalties drawn upon you by your own actions. And to me, this sounds just like the sour-grapes style of complaining you can hear in any minimum-security prison, which again is a socially imposed penalty drawn upon someone due to their own actions.

No graverobbing on your part and none of these things would've ever occured. Instead, you decided to become a graverobber, knowing in advance that this would happen in responce. So based on your acknowledged actions, your laundry-list of what you can or cannot do in game is far from a convincing argument.

>>>You're making it sound like the Graverobber gets away easily with really no skill or penalty whatsoever and this truely is not the case.
>>>GRing is the same as cointheft, just on a much larger scale with much larger consequences.

System-based requirements for a character to graverob: Minimum Circle 5.
System-based requirements for a character to use the STEAL verb: Skill vs. skill check.

How simple is it to powerscript some character 5th circle? Depending on the guild, I can do it in 4 days, even under the limitations imposed under the Scripting Policy for Prime, and I'm not even close to being an advanced script-writer.

In other words, there's not much actual character skill needed to graverob.

What you seem to be arguing is that the player skill to graverob is much higher than the character skill. Knowledge of the area, how fast one can get from A to B, "safe" areas that will cause spirit hits, and other minutiae of the environment, the line where policy ends and consent begins... Quite frankly, I had all of that information down in my head within the first 9 months of joining the game. Not much player skill required for that, just intelligence plus logical and intuitive abilities.

>>>This idea that GRing is different than coin theft is also completely nonsensical.

See the above comparison. There is a fundamental difference between using the Stealing skill and being a graverobber.

>>>Detroit police would have a horribly hard time tracking down a murderer who commited his crime in the plains of Montana.

False comparison. A crime committed in a specific geographical area is the responsibility of those law enforcement types of that area, so a detective from Detroit would have no chance to even attempt to investigate a murder in Montana in the first place. And that is exactly where the comparison breaks down, as there is no associated law enforcement area outside the city walls where one can report a crime. Now, if you had brought an example from one of the Mad Max movies, which had large tracts of land where the only defense a person has is their weapons (or at least the weapons of their allies), then you just might have had a comparative example.

That is precisely what we have in DR, where the Justice system ends precisely where the powers of the guardhouses end where the walls do. Yet the Justice system does not acknowledge graverobbing as a punishable offense, even when performed within the city walls, which does not prevent a graverobber that wishes to make his name from camping in the Cleric guild during a busy time and, desiring to use the scroll of spell preps, cambrinth snaps, and "So-and-so gets something from an opened So-and-so's grave" messages, grabbing what they can and hotfooting it for the hills. After all, there is not always a Paladin willing to draw a glyph or a Cleric capable of the Ressurection quest available at all times of the day, while the supply of corpses never entirely sleeps.

Nor does it prevent that someone from, when finally located and tracked down, simply refusing to return the item. In that case, the only recourse of those victims would be violence, which carries a two-fold difficulty. First, the victim would need to be capable of killing the graverobber, which is not always a given. Second, the graverobber could, in return and (just barely, with one foot on the other side of the grey area) within policy, claim consent for being the victim of graverobbing, track down the original victim, and kill them off, thus continuing the circle. Once this is begun, the only possible recourse for the original victim is the REPORT verb, which is far from being in character and (gasp!) roleplaying, the latter of which some of you have stated as what you desire from the whole process.

And I can hear the response from some defenders of graverobbing now. "But I don't do that! I give the items back once I've been tracked down. I do this simply for the thrill of the chase."

Let me respond to this in advance. By defending graverobbing, you defend those whose motivations might not be so pure as your own and, as you are involved in the same base actions as those in the above example, your actions are tarred with the same brush as the ones that are simply in it for the profit. The only difference is that you handed us the brush with which to paint the picture with broad strokes.

Now, from your response to the Gonif:
>>>In response to your numbers:
>>>1. Like I said, it's just absurd to do so, not worth it. Just like graverobbing items of only sentimental value.
And following it up with your response to an example from SYLER, as quoted from only 13 minutes later:
>>>If I GRed that I'd be selling that if not back to you, to the first buyer who offered up the plats. It has definitely coin worth for sure. Say for instance that item DID NOT belong to you in the first place, but to someone else. How much would you pay to have it? The fact that it is rare and unique just makes it worth MORE money on the market, ESPECIALLY to you because you tailor made it for yourself.

Self-serving is, quite frankly, the only word I can use when describing this argument. Any object in the game that is specifically tailor-made by the player is, by definition, an item of sentimental value. It may have actual coin value, as does any object in the game, but one who purchases or sells someone else's individually designed items is not concerned with the item's sentimental value to the original owner, but only the uniqueness of the item. To use a currently unresolved situation, another player is attempting to recover an altered backtube that was sold, without his knowledge or permission, through one of the Yahoo lists. This item was definately unique and sentimental, yet had a final coin value well into the 400 platinum range. When he finally gets it returned to him, by any pseudo-reasonable analysis, the final price could reach into the thousands.

So by saying you won't take anything of only sentimental value and then turning around (in the very next post, at that) saying that anything that is altered by the player (and therefore sentimental) will have an additional and possibly very large monetary value, you effectively limit yourself by only excluding rubbable lockets and bonded pilgrim's badges from the possibility of graverobbing, and, as long as you just sell it back to the original owner at a highly inflated price, not even that.

How magnanimous of you.[/sarcasm]

Amagaim; the player of,

---

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.

<<My final points, upheld by evidence aforementioned...>>

There has certainly been no evidence presented that uphelds your final points. Mostly just a lot of opinion and a lot of complaints that ultimately have more to do with mechanics abuse and poor enforcement of policy than they do graverobbing.

<<The policy doesnt' reflect the IC consequences of a crime so grave (pun) as graverobbing, and the OOC consequences only result in a series of head aches for the one losing items... >>

From an IC standpoint, it's actually not that grave of a crime. From an IC standpoint, murder is most definitely the more serious of crimes. It's only from an OOC standpoint that graverobbing is the ultimate taboo.

<<The system is out of wack, and exists purely for unconsented PvP conflict. It requires reconsideration, reevaluation, and redesign.>>

Actually, no, it's not. "Unconsentual PvP" has a very specific definition.

Theft does not fall under it.

"The problem with guarding a grave is that it immediately grants consent to the guarder of the grave on MY head. This is a problem considering now I have two schmos after my hide."

This is a problem for you. Why should I care if its a problem for a self proclaimed grave robber? The majority of players(note players not characters) put GR on the same level as we react to those caught practising Necrophilia in real life(hey Necrophilia doesn't actually hurt anyone.....). I don't find that the chance of being grave robbed enriches my gaming experience. Others may enjoy the possibility of being grave robbed, while others, due to their multiple mules don't have to worry about it. I have no more sympathy for a grave robber in game than I do for an arsonist out of the game.

" Lets lighten the restrictions a bit shall we? Make people SERIOUSLY grateful about getting a glyph or a rezz. The clerics complain about people being ungrateful and thinking they deserve rezz's, graverobbing being more of a threat would seriously make them be grateful."

As the player of the cleric I am thrilled that you are doing this on my behalf- but stop being so generous. No the folks who aren't grateful to clerics won't be so if GR is made easier- they will be more demanding.

Bottom line is- I see no reason to making GR easier so you can get your twisted jollies at the expense of the rest of the players. I am sure that you are most careful to do so within policy. And if as you say that you never report those who kill you or attempt to walk you...then good for you....but I have no reason to believe you. Why should I believe anything a self proclaimed GR says?

As far to the claim that it is OOC to view GR as being worse than murder in DR, I don't see anything OOC about it at all. What are the moral codes IG that make that stance OOC? Are there some biblical type commandments that proclaim murder as the worst crime commitable? True there are laws within cities that list crimes, but the laws by themselves have no moral standing. And since a large portion of GR occurs outside of cities, the laws themselves have no standing.

From a characters standpoint what is worse? My character has died, losing a favor about 30 odd times. With resurrections thats probably double- so say 60 some deaths. My character would prefer not to die, but knows it will happen at times, and actually risks it often enough. From his point of view, death is less of a penalty than spraining my ankle would be to me.

Now my character has a few prized possessions- either irreplacable or extremely costly to replace. Lets take my old Travellers pack. My character bought that from a trader up in Theran oh so many years ago. It is larger than most containers, but it also has sentimental value as an item collected a long time ago from a merchant that is likely to never return. If my Travellers pack were stolen, I probably couldn't afford to replace it on todays market. Even if I could- it wouldn't be the same pack to my character.

So why would it be OOC for my character to view the loss of a prized item more seriously than death? From my characters point of view there is absolutely no doubt about which impacts him more. You are just bringing your own OOC morality into the game and making that judgement.

You are obviously a .....oh I suppose I could use some word impugning your intelligence or judgement but since I really dislike it when others do it- I will just say- in my opinion you are wrong. You can disagree and I still won't call you stupid or a moron. Because it is a game after all.

Flavius

<<<<Bottom line is- I see no reason to making GR easier so you can get your twisted jollies at the expense of the rest of the players. I am sure that you are most careful to do so within policy. And if as you say that you never report those who kill you or attempt to walk you...then good for you....but I have no reason to believe you. Why should I believe anything a self proclaimed GR says?>>

Because the character, not the player, is the graverobber.

Apparently it's the anti-graverobbing camp that ultimately has a hard time keeping it IC.

<<As far to the claim that it is OOC to view GR as being worse than murder in DR, I don't see anything OOC about it at all. What are the moral codes IG that make that stance OOC? Are there some biblical type commandments that proclaim murder as the worst crime commitable?>>

The associated IC penalties for murder Vs. theft is a pretty good indicator, I would say.

<<Consider the IC Legal penalties of Extortion or Blackmail vs Theft/murder.

Though you say it is a good indicator, it obviously is not.
>>

Sure it is. The comparison is between murder and theft.

Murder carries higher IC penalties, thus it is considered the more severe crime from an IC standpoint. When comparing murder to theft, all other crimes and their associated penalties are utterly meaningless.

We can accurately conclude from the IC penalties associated with murder Vs. theft that murder is considered a crime more severe than theft - from an IC standpoint.

<<All fish swim. Humans swim. Therefore we can accurately conclude that humans are fish...>>


Please show me where a qualitative comparison was made categorizing the two crimes under the same heading based on one shared property? Oh, wait - no such comparison was ever made.

The comparison being drawn was quantitative.

Which crime is considered more severe from an IC standpoint: Murder, or theft?

According to any measurable IC reference, it's most definitely murder. The in game penalties administered by the justice system are more severe for murder than they are for theft. Quantitative.

It does not matter what penalty is administered for any crime except murder, or theft. We're not determining the grand scale of criminal penalties - just whether theft, or murder, is more severe.

Bringing another crime into it - for example, extortion, is the epitome of irrelevance.

If you were comparing the speed of two cars Vs. eachother, would you include in your argument that a third car - completely unrelated to the first two - somehow had any effect on the speed of the first two cars when compared to eachother? Of course not.

<<All fish swim. Humans swim. Therefore we can accurately conclude that humans are fish...>>

Not exactly. There is no place in your argument that states that everything that swims is a fish. Had it said: "All things that swim are fish. Humans swim. Therefore we can accurately conclude that humans are fish" you would have been correct.

Further, based on your statement, since not all humans are able to swim, does it therefore mean that only some humans are fish?

Tangent over.

--Just a "clueless" Squire

Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.

<<The point of extortion is to illustrate that the IC world is incomplete, and is an incoherent basis for determining the severity of the Graverobbing crime..>>

No, it really isn't - because in terms of the IC world, the two items being compared are "complete".

Once again: If we were looking at a grand hierarchy of crime, you would have a point. We're not.

We're comparing two crimes which are both "complete" in that they have mechanics, policy, and IC repercussions associated with them.

"The associated IC penalties for murder Vs. theft is a pretty good indicator, I would say."

Guess you didn't read my entire post- or perhaps you just chose to ignore that which didn't support your arguement?

Laws in limited jurisdictions are not the same thing as moral indicators of how our characters should be acting or reacting. For instance- it may be illegal to kill an animal within a specified sanctuary but not illegal to kill it outside of the sanctuary. Does this mean people observing the killing will only be upset by the illegal killing, but not the legal- or vice versa?

There is no written moral code within Dragonrealms that I am aware of. If you as a player have decided that the laws of the cities guide provide the framework of your characters moral decision making process, then that is fine. But to state that because is a crime with the highest penalties in certain legal jurisdictions that all characters must therefore view murder has an act more heinous as grave robbery, and are therefore acting OOC if they don't react as you say, is a very poorly and unsupported arguement. Show me a moral code for all of DR that supports your arguement, or even a law.

Flavius

<<Laws in limited jurisdictions are not the same thing as moral indicators of how our characters should be acting or reacting. >>

Whether you like it or not, the justice system is, in fact, the only objective IC source we have for comparing the severity of crimes in DR.

It reflects how the elanthian society - which is not restricted to player characters - as a whole views crime.

<<Show me a moral code for all of DR that supports your arguement, or even a law. >>

I don't see you leaping to do the same - or do you not hold your own arguments to the same standard? The statement was made that graverobbing is the "gravest of crimes" in DR. There is absolutely nothing in mechanics, in game law -or- in game moral stands, or OOC policy that supports that.

Your character is welcome to have his own morality - it is something, after all, that tends to be very subjective. Just be aware that placing theft above murder doesn't necessarily mesh with the views of Elanthian society as a whole.


<<Actually, that is only true for those characters who haven't stolen very much. If you have indulged in as much theft as I have, you'd know that the theft fines are much higher than murder fines.>>

You conveniently ignored the fact that murder fines escalate similarly, which renders the point moot. The in game justice system administers an additional penalty to repeat offenders. On that note, care to guess which fine grows faster?

<<The game doesn't consider graverobbing theft via mechanics so I would say it would be incorrect to use the fines for pilfering, pickpocketing, and felony stealing for why graverobbing wouldn't be as bad as murder.>>

I've seen the standard felony thieving charges applied to graverobbers inside town before. It takes a bit of GM intervention to do it, as the "passerby" isn't coded for it.

Regardless of that, however: Theft is theft. The IG governments certainly don't care about your sentimental attachment to your items. Stealing a broadsword from a store, or a freshly purchased broadsword from a newb that just died is ultimately the theft of a broadsword.

<<The statement was made that graverobbing is the "gravest of crimes" in DR. There is absolutely nothing in mechanics, in game law -or- in game moral stands, or OOC policy that supports that.>>

I have to agree with this. First, from an IC standpoint it seems to me that the worst "crimes" are those that are perpetrated against the state, e.g. simply having a difference of opinion with the ruling power will get you killed. In fact, from an IC standpoint people are encouraged to graverob, be it from rats or be it from one of the 7 (now 11) "races" (think Thugs, pirates, gypsys, etc.).

Now from an IC standpoint being graverobbed sucks, you want to get even, and justifiably so. However, the morality that surrounds the issue is grey on so many different levels that there is no way to truly make a completely IC justification as to why some may be and some may not be graverobbed. What I would love to see is a logical IC justification for being allowed to graverob "critters" or GMPC's and not PC's. The person who develops a coherent policy wins all the prizes...

From a purely player standpoint: I DON'T WANT TO BE GRAVEROBBER. However, in real life, as well as in the game theft exists and it is something that one cannot spend all their time worrying about or you would never get anything accomplished...

--Just a "clueless" Squire

Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.