This skill implies that it should cover those things necessary to survive and move in the wilderness. Can we get Outdoorsmanship to include scouting in addition to forage and animal lore?

Of if not in Outdoorsmanship, can you put scouting in Athleticism (second choice of skill group).

It's interesting that combining the skills in game haven't really shortened the list of skills much.

Zinaca and her fully-grown raccoon, Shadow

>scouting

This is a guild only skill. That's why it wasn't combined. Supposedly at some point in time we're supposed to get perks with this skill. We should start a thread with suggestions.

I would like to see us be able to >track people that we successfully >hunt. I could see this evolving from maybe only being able to track people 1 room away with 50 ranks of scouting to the full 6 rooms or whatever it is with 500 ranks.

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Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry

Heh, I just posted this exact sentiment in the 2.0 boards. Great minds?

But seriously, I'm all for disbanding Scouting and starting fresh.

GENT

About scouting being the guild only skill and suggestions to drop it and get a new one. I agree, I like using trails and would love some expansion of it which is promised by Sithix after companions whenever he does that, but would love another guild only skill other than scouting.

Thanks for the input though--now I won't get my hopes up.

Zinaca and her fully-grown raccoon, Shadow

>It's interesting that combining the skills in game haven't really shortened the list of skills much.

It was not a combine to 'shorten' skill lists. It was a rewrite, combine, and expansion, to accomodate different skill pathings because DR needed to grow in different directions and the number of skills is hard-capped at roughly how many we have now, so they could not create new skills without doing away with old ones.

>which is promised by Sithix

Is he even on staff any more? I haven't seen him post in a long time, and the GMs have been pretty up front about 'no, I am no bound to whatever promises were made by people before me'.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

You can use HUNT on things like the scarecrow, kitten, begger, etc for the first 40 ranks. I believe scout awareness also works Scouting a little bit, too.

GENT

My low level ranger was finding no difficulty training scouting through the use of Hunt verb in rats in 2.0; I will do a test of this as well as fighting some rats in 3.0 when I am able to.

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

>Hunt verb in rats in 2.0

I had no problems what so ever until about 400 ranks, then you hit a wall.

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Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry

What does scouting truly bring to the table for Rangers other than a requirement for circle? What does scounting do to make us different? Trails? Are they an advantage of any type?

Arctuniol

Just an FYI, I am not trying to mock. I am trying to understand. Too many times in our skilset, we have had supposed advantages that have been removed or nerfed because of outrage of other guilds. Yet when we have we get told to buck it up. I guess, I am curious as to what the point of having scouting itself is. I just haven't had any reason overall for it to be usefull, not since the change from old tracking. I just think overall there has been too many bad juju for Rangers and in some cases after reading this whole change over is just another round of some bad juju without much direction for what a Ranger is, or what we have that makes us unique.

Arct

I don't think definition is the problem. I think usefullness is. YOu can have a skill defined as narrowly as you want but making it useful with a purpose and a skill to want to be learned outside of for circle is something different. Scounting to me, could be useful and something wanted to be learned if there was a benefit. An area only accesible to scouting proficient guilds. Being able to bypass easily specific barriers, faster travel....ability to over hunt I mean something. Granted my ideas are old and outdated but reality is the skill itself is old and outaded and been on the block to become useful but nothing ever happened, bandaid here or there to make it learnable because it was required but never useful, or wanted to be learned.

Arc

>>What about taking a cue from the Bards and having the skill named Natural Lore (or Nature Lore) or if you want to keep it not sounding like a lore skillset skil how about Wilderness Survival.

Hmm. I like your idea better. You're right, it would be a Bad Thing to have Outdoorsmanship do too much. I think renaming is the best idea.

It would be nice to have something that encompasses the Nature theme of Rangers: beseeches, companions, trails, etc. I just don't see how any of these systems could be made to scale to 1750 ranks. Like Arc said, it has to do something useful outside of being trained.

GENT

>>You have a guild skill that is trainable, though by no means useful, which is better than many guilds. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss it, but I think you folks need to tone down the "woe is me, Rangers are getting nerfed again." It's not helping and it's likely annoying the GMs.

This from the guy that has a GM basically chained to a desk working on his two favorite things??? Where as Ranger's have been promised trails rewrite, companion rewrite and beseech rewrite for almost a decade?

Get back in your forge and let us rant in own folders, it's the only way to pass the time while running trails or "hunting" for 40 minutes to get a skill that we need to circle but have absolutely no benefit for ranking to maybe 12/34 if you're lucky.

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Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry

Lets play the fun game called when was your guild overhauled/added to last...

Barbarian- being overhauled/added to as we speak
Bard- I've lost count of how much and often they've been added to lately
Cleric- yep same here as the bards
Empath- overhauled/added to as we speak
Moon Mage- added to recently
Necromancer the whole guild is what 4, 5 years old?
Paladin- 3.0 is making their primary skill set better/more useful
Thief- overhauled just recently and on the docket to move over to the magic system
Trader- being completely overhauled and having magic added
Warrior Mage- added to recently
Ranger- Our bonus was tweaked 3 years ago, new trails were added around the time P5 came out, and thats about it as far a ranger only ability development. I think before that was our beseeches which were what 10+ years ago?

You don't like listening to the woe is me from rangers, then how about we stop having every rangeresque update given out to everyone "for the good of the game".
Sniping
Advanced skinning
Hunting
...
The double standard with regards to "guild only" development is just mind boggling. Guild exclusivity applies to everyone but us.


But hey we're rangers right? Kick us in the groin and add another millstone around our neck cause that's what were here for.
The only thing missing from this thread is the parade of non-rangers popping in to tell us how to be rangers and or stuff it.



List off the top of my head of things that should be looked at, changed, or added for our guild(no particular order):
*Scouting
*Companions
*traps/snares
*beseeches and spells (not just updated to work in 3.0 but where they are all useful)(Three TM spells that are basically the same; beseech the wind to clean and compost are the same too)
*creature spawn management(not just increase but being able to decrease it as well)
*item foraging management(being able to find items out of season, better quality, not normally found in that area)
*a beseech/spell to make a natural raw material better/worth more (thinking ore/wood/bone/skins, expand HOL for this)

Definations are useful--allows coders to have a handle on the direction to code--usefulllness is better! Please GMs listen to what these smart folks are saying and do something about this. This isn't complaining, it is suggesting and GMs have a wonderful opportunity to address this now in 3.0.

Zinaca and her fully-grown raccoon, Shadow

What it comes down to is this: Would you rather wait for a GM who likes rangers and will code good stuff for them, or immediately get a GM who doesn't want to do it and will only do enough to keep the complaining down?

It's the nature of DR. Nothing good comes from GMs coding things they don't care about.

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

<<The GMs are not going to magically have time to undertake a whole bloody new system creation, rewrite, whatever. They are volunteers with families and jobs, and making the new core engine, as well as all the attachments they've put on it already, work at least well enough to release some initial form, is taking all their time and energy. And if it's not obvious that that's what's happening, and why that's what's happening, you (collective) need to get off the forums because you (collective) are an idiot, and there's no nice way to say that.>>

Simu should consider paying them for working on overdue/needed systems. I respect our volunteers, but the excuse that guilds cant get development because the volunteer group does not want to address it is I feel an issue with the base organization behind game masters and simutronics not wanting to pay someone to do this professionally, or at least someone to work on the stuff that the other GM's dont want to work on.

Before anyone points it out, I'm aware this is the same argument I have brought up in the microtrans thread :)

I never intended for my ideas to be construed as GvG. I was not trying to be negative or snarky. I realize now that my comments came across as such.

My suggestion that Backstabbing and Scouting be renamed for 3.0 does belong in these folders, as I believe this is the best opportunity for such a discussion (and potential change) to take place. I believe the other posters' remarks about Scouting development thus far evidence the fact that a renaming discussion is salient at this point.

I am not asking for a complete guild overhaul at this point, that obviously makes no sense. I was just hoping to spur a discussion regarding the merits of renaming the two skills in question.

Thanks
GENT

>>Slight tangent: Did Awaken Forest make the change over? I saw it on the list of tentative spells but not listed under the 3.0 spells on elanthipedia.

I notice that too, but it appears to be working. I'm not too familiar with the spell myself, but I didn't notice anything weird?

My observations:

1. The spell doesn't teach any skills in Test. I'm not sure which skill it would teach, Utility?
2. The room-based cooldown is absurdly high. In Prime it is 4-5 minutes. In test it increases with mana. At 55 mana (my personal cap) it is over 70 minutes long.
3. The spawn duration in Prime is extremely short, but they don't appear to dissipate in Test unless you release the spell.
4. The spawns seems to be pretty weaksauce. In 2.0 my spawn appraises at my level:

You are certain that the slimy spawn is healthy.
You are certain that it is somewhat less agile than you are.
You are certain that it is rather less quick to react than you are.
You are certain that it is not quite as strong as you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with no weapon, you are certain that the slimy spawn is a truly skilled opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with no weapon, you are certain that the slimy spawn is a difficult opponent.

In test, however:

You are certain that the slimy spawn is healthy.
You are certain that it is somewhat less agile than you are.
You are certain that it is definitely less quick to react than you are.
You are certain that it is somewhat weaker than you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a crocodile-skin buckler and a dark lacquered parry stick, you are certain that the slimy spawn is a less skilled opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with your fists, you are certain that the slimy spawn is a very easy opponent.

I don't expect this spell to be of much use, considering how easily it would die at-level, and given how long the cool down is.

For reference, my Test skills are:
Life Magic: 392 95% clear (0/34) Attunement: 401 24% thoughtful (4/34)
Arcana: 233 69% learning (3/34) Targeted Magic: 126 95% clear (0/34)
Augmentation: 353 52% clear (0/34) Debilitation: 313 73% clear (0/34)
Utility: 294 16% clear (0/34) Warding: 275 12% clear (0/34)
Sorcery: 0 00% clear (0/34)

Probably 20-25 ranks higher in Prime.

GENT

>Targeted Magic: 126 95% clear (0/34)

This is probably your problem. Most (all?) minion spells run off TM for effectiveness.

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance