So it feels with the changes to magic that in general, charisma is less of a guild focus in 3.0
Now lots of this is based off my understanding in 2.0, but Charisma from what I understood was a utilized stat (defensively) in any Stat vs WILL based contests (i believe the stats were disc and charisma, where as for vs PHYSICAL contests it was disc and stamina).
I also believe it was used offensively in a number of will vs will type contests, like HALT (might be wrong on this).
Glancing at 3.0, it seems in general Charisma is heavily devalued for Paladins.
Charisma is no longer in any defensive calculations, and when it comes to offense it seems in areas paladins have very few spells in: that being Fear, Charm and Spirit. In the examples spells noted, Halt is a mind spell(so no charisma) and Stun Foe is a Spirit Spell (So charisma is secondary). My presumption is that shatter is going to be a power based contest based off its nature.
More startling I feel to me, is that Will Power Defensive contests rely on Disc, Wisdom and Int. I feel Charisma fits better than Wisdom or Intelligence (more so Intelligence) for the ability for your spirit and mind to shake off the persuasion of others.
I feel the case for really training for charisma was a fairly weak one in 2.0, other stats were simply better for our guild in general, and now in 3.0 the stat becomes quite a bit weaker. Its hard to really weigh this against stats like strength, stamina, reflexes and discipline as those have such better and more immediate benefits.
I suppose it be nice, drawing on a bit of 3.0/3.5 D&D Lore if Paladins had some way to utilize charisma in lie of another attribute in certain contests, but this is just a spit ball idea.
REWYN
ASHAMAN1
Re: Charisma not as important in 3.0?
12/12/2012 12:04 PM CST
I wouldn't neglect Charisma. Stun Foe, and HoW's stun both call on it, Smite pool is effected by it. Soul pool and size is effected by it, in fact, raising my charisma a big chunk let me take quite a few soul hits in test before coming off pristine - so yeah, handy.
Now, if you don't plan to use disablers and play the solo version of DR where you never use powers and just watch numbers climb, then by all means skimp on charisma.
Now, if you don't plan to use disablers and play the solo version of DR where you never use powers and just watch numbers climb, then by all means skimp on charisma.
REWYN
Re: Charisma not as important in 3.0?
12/12/2012 03:23 PM CST
Soul Pool is also dictated by circle, as is the smite pool. And while it has a baring with Stun Foe and How's stun, its a secondary attribute. You are better off increasing discipline point for point until the relative tdp cost is high enough to not warrant any more investment. That has to also be weighted against the fact discipline is used in a ALOT more computations. Its determines your TM, your primary will defense, and all sorts of other things.
Charisma is in the contests we interact with it, not a primary factor, and its effect on our paladin unique stuff is generally in parallel to circle and group size (for lead).
I'm not saying its NOT important, but its hard to say its as valuable as it used to be, and more so I think you can make a very easy case as to say that any of the attributes I listed earlier generally pull their weight more than charisma does.
Charisma is in the contests we interact with it, not a primary factor, and its effect on our paladin unique stuff is generally in parallel to circle and group size (for lead).
I'm not saying its NOT important, but its hard to say its as valuable as it used to be, and more so I think you can make a very easy case as to say that any of the attributes I listed earlier generally pull their weight more than charisma does.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Charisma not as important in 3.0?
12/13/2012 05:10 PM CST
While I don't disagree charisma's lost weight in stat contests, I don't know if I'd say paladins won't have reason to train it alongside or close to other valuable attributes; I think it remains the only attribute that impacts all paladin abilities. Moreover, it does indirectly impact the fortitude defense because it's the weighted far more than other attributes in spirit calculation.
On a separate note, based on testing I did, I think shatter is actually spirit for offense like SF. Makes my Rakash sad but I'll deal with it; love 3.0.
On a separate note, based on testing I did, I think shatter is actually spirit for offense like SF. Makes my Rakash sad but I'll deal with it; love 3.0.
REWYN
Re: Charisma not as important in 3.0?
12/13/2012 06:03 PM CST
I didnt say useless, just heavily devalued. Anyone spending tdps faces with the current choices looking to improve their combat capabilities is going to have the least value out of charisma compared to other stats. I realize it does 'stuff' for our guild, but its not really very significant compared to the effects of other attributes. If i want better magical effects, ill take discipline, as it effects FAR more contests than Charisma. Outside that Str/Ref/Stam are really the primary attributes of 3.0.
This is more an issue of we have old systems that I do not think scale very well. Charisma gives you more soul pool, but its a rather pitiful increase. I tested this in Prime by quickly increasing my charisma nearly ten points and monitoring my smite pool, trying to time my training between the 'ticks'. An increase of 10 charisma for me increased by smite pool by about 2% (i went from 100% to 98% filled following my training). Given the cost per smite, this effect really is not very profound, and while I'm sure you can make a case that over large numbers enough charisma makes an impact, I think everyone is better served with those same values anywhere else.
As it is, very few damage sources in the game attack spirit health, so its effect there is noted and more or less only relevant vs certain clerics or the rare type of creature that can deal damage there. Shop prices are a joke, with inflation in DR 'shop' prices may as well not exist, players are trading with each other. When we sell stuff (bundles, pouches) we tend to go through traders, making personal charisma less important. Its no longer a factor in any stat defense calculations, effects one maybe two of our spells (if shatter is spirit) as a secondary attribute.
I honestly cant say I've really had an issue with soul after 70th, I can glyph mana when I hunt if I need it, and periodically use light, but glyphs are not powers we throw down 'all the time', so a larger soul pool is really just a matter of convenience.
Just to reitterate, I'm not saying its a useless stat, but im saying "Boy its kind of funny that as a Paladin, I think the returns on charisma are pretty terrible, despite it being considered a 'main' attribute for us and within our Sphere of Influence (despite having no boosters to charisma. Oddly we get Intelligence though..?)"
This is more an issue of we have old systems that I do not think scale very well. Charisma gives you more soul pool, but its a rather pitiful increase. I tested this in Prime by quickly increasing my charisma nearly ten points and monitoring my smite pool, trying to time my training between the 'ticks'. An increase of 10 charisma for me increased by smite pool by about 2% (i went from 100% to 98% filled following my training). Given the cost per smite, this effect really is not very profound, and while I'm sure you can make a case that over large numbers enough charisma makes an impact, I think everyone is better served with those same values anywhere else.
As it is, very few damage sources in the game attack spirit health, so its effect there is noted and more or less only relevant vs certain clerics or the rare type of creature that can deal damage there. Shop prices are a joke, with inflation in DR 'shop' prices may as well not exist, players are trading with each other. When we sell stuff (bundles, pouches) we tend to go through traders, making personal charisma less important. Its no longer a factor in any stat defense calculations, effects one maybe two of our spells (if shatter is spirit) as a secondary attribute.
I honestly cant say I've really had an issue with soul after 70th, I can glyph mana when I hunt if I need it, and periodically use light, but glyphs are not powers we throw down 'all the time', so a larger soul pool is really just a matter of convenience.
Just to reitterate, I'm not saying its a useless stat, but im saying "Boy its kind of funny that as a Paladin, I think the returns on charisma are pretty terrible, despite it being considered a 'main' attribute for us and within our Sphere of Influence (despite having no boosters to charisma. Oddly we get Intelligence though..?)"
