Ok, well this is a post on a spell that isn't out yet, but I wanted to make a suggestion because it was something I disagreed with before and think it fits well with the goals of 3.0. Now, I remember the spell battery function being added into Moonblade as a means of making the spell more attractive as it was deemed as dull by most people before. Now, with 3.0, I know one of the goals is to make it so spells don't suffer needlessly from this sort of dullness and have appropriate spellslot costs for their functions. As such, it makes sense that the spell battery function of Moonblade should be separated out into its own slot through a metaspell, but I want to suggest that the functionality be separated entirely and not even be a metaspell. The reason for this, is that i think the thematic connection between this function and Moonblade is slightly weak and not necessary. They actually are completely different in nature. It is also a great ability that I don't think should be limited to having chosen Moonblade first(A personal taste but still part of my argument.). My suggestion would be to just have a spell called Empower and to have it work on either Moonbeam or Moonblade (Thus taking nothing away from its functionality with Moonblade but opening up a few more choices). Now, I realize one of the big differences would be that Moonblade must be held while Moonbeams arn't, but I don't really see that being a big balancing scheme to begin with in regards to this aspect of Moonblade.
TLDR:
-Empower Moonblade separate from Moonblade/Moonblade Metaspell and renamed Empower.
-Castable on Moonblades or Moonbeams.
-This wouldn't entail any changes in slot costs as it is already being separated out but would give it more flexibility and appeal.
Other "Synergy" Aspect:
I might be getting greedy here, but also, why not allow us to create slivers for TKT with Moonbeam as well? Moonblade only costs one slot, so I don't see how much this ability has as an impact on that cost.
It just feels like Moonblade was really dull before and was given lots of neat effects to make it more appealing, but I thought the goal of 3.0 was to limit this.
CONDEJ
DANFORDS2
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 07:51 PM CST
>spell battery function
I would really like to see this as an option in Enchanting.
>Moonblade only costs one slot
And this is a problem, IMO. It creates a weapon, certainly worthy of a spell slot by itself, and acts as a spell battery. Awesome deal for one slot. I wish the WM weapon creation spells were this great. I'll have to wait and see once they're released, but that's supposed to be post 3.0 I believe.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
I would really like to see this as an option in Enchanting.
>Moonblade only costs one slot
And this is a problem, IMO. It creates a weapon, certainly worthy of a spell slot by itself, and acts as a spell battery. Awesome deal for one slot. I wish the WM weapon creation spells were this great. I'll have to wait and see once they're released, but that's supposed to be post 3.0 I believe.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
GRIM45
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 07:55 PM CST
Moonblade itself costs 1 slot. You want the spell battery, you need to spend an extra slot to get it. It is still less than it would have cost in DR2.0
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
CONDEJ
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 07:56 PM CST
<And this is a problem, IMO. It creates a weapon, certainly worthy of a spell slot by itself, and acts as a spell battery. Awesome deal for one slot. I wish the WM weapon creation spells were this great. I'll have to wait and see once they're released, but that's supposed to be post 3.0 I believe.>
In 3.0, Moonblade doesn't have this ability, and instead, it is a planned as a metaspell addition to Moonblade, Empower Moonblade. Thus, my post was just an idea before that metaspell is created to get it on a slightly different path.
In 3.0, Moonblade doesn't have this ability, and instead, it is a planned as a metaspell addition to Moonblade, Empower Moonblade. Thus, my post was just an idea before that metaspell is created to get it on a slightly different path.
DANFORDS2
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 07:58 PM CST
>Moonblade itself costs 1 slot
Somehow I missed that. I'm not super familiar with Moon Mage spells in 3.0. My bad. I still hope spell batteries are craftable in Enchanting 3.0, even if it remains an aspect of Moonblade.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
Somehow I missed that. I'm not super familiar with Moon Mage spells in 3.0. My bad. I still hope spell batteries are craftable in Enchanting 3.0, even if it remains an aspect of Moonblade.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
GRIM45
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 07:58 PM CST
>>In 3.0, Moonblade doesn't have this ability, and instead, it is a planned as a metaspell addition to Moonblade, Empower Moonblade. Thus, my post was just an idea before that metaspell is created to get it on a slightly different path.
Again, you need to look at spell slots 2.0 vs 3.0. To do this in 2.0 (Full use of all forms) you needed to spend two, 2.0 spell slots. In 3.0 that would mean six slots. To do that in DR 3.0, it's three spell slots, IE, one, 2.0 spell slot. You're coming out ahead.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Again, you need to look at spell slots 2.0 vs 3.0. To do this in 2.0 (Full use of all forms) you needed to spend two, 2.0 spell slots. In 3.0 that would mean six slots. To do that in DR 3.0, it's three spell slots, IE, one, 2.0 spell slot. You're coming out ahead.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
CONDEJ
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:04 PM CST
<Again, you need to look at spell slots 2.0 vs 3.0. To do this in 2.0 (Full use of all forms) you needed to spend two, 2.0 spell slots. In 3.0 that would mean six slots. To do that in DR 3.0, it's three spell slots, IE, one, 2.0 spell slot. You're coming out ahead.>
I'm not quite sure if that's how it works. From what I gather, spell functions are given a slot cost and total spell cost reflects this functionality. Now, we don't know how much Empower Moonblade will cost when it is released but whatever cost it is given, there is no reason that this cost is directly tied to the cost of Moonblade. If it costs 1 or 2 slots, that would be its cost if it were a stand alone spell, no? This depends on if there is or isn't a deduction in slot cost for meta-spells, but I thought metaspell just meant it became an added function of an existing spell which did not need to be cast separately.
I'm not quite sure if that's how it works. From what I gather, spell functions are given a slot cost and total spell cost reflects this functionality. Now, we don't know how much Empower Moonblade will cost when it is released but whatever cost it is given, there is no reason that this cost is directly tied to the cost of Moonblade. If it costs 1 or 2 slots, that would be its cost if it were a stand alone spell, no? This depends on if there is or isn't a deduction in slot cost for meta-spells, but I thought metaspell just meant it became an added function of an existing spell which did not need to be cast separately.
DARKANGEL23
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:18 PM CST
Im not really sure what good putting spells into a moonbeam would be. That and a moonblade is a solid object whereas the moonbeams are just a brightened/darkened area so it doesnt seem to click for me that Id be able to weave a spell of any sort into it... its more like an anchor than anything else. I do agree though that Im not really finding all the metaspells for moonblade all that attractive. Shape.. ok I saw that comin since thats how it was built in the first place. But having to pick another metaspell just to get the spell nodes back seems... meh. Now if it added elemental "moonfire" damage extras to the blade, let us weave any spell into it (damage spells included), made it work more like OM, could power a cyclic, maybe gave us the ability to generate tkt shards from it without destroying the blade, or any number of other things than just the nodes then Id be far more interested.
>>It just feels like Moonblade was really dull before and was given lots of neat effects to make it more appealing, but I thought the goal of 3.0 was to limit this.
As it is though Moonblade is very weak... in the age of forged weapons they really serve little purpose other than RP reasons. Most folks (Id almost hazard everyone) that hunt probably carry around the weapons they specialize in. And Id lean more toward the probability that they are carrying new forged, festival forged quality, or special metal weapons than just a standard crossing shop weapon. Throw in the need for a moon to be up and Id be willing to bet that really the only reason anyone ever uses the spell (other than the few RP scenarios) is just to break it for shards or use the spell battery to quicken a task (like the Astral travel scenario from another thread). This is supposed to be one of our iconic spells and its rarely used... that screams fix me. But I dont think the answer is to take things away from the spell
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
>>It just feels like Moonblade was really dull before and was given lots of neat effects to make it more appealing, but I thought the goal of 3.0 was to limit this.
As it is though Moonblade is very weak... in the age of forged weapons they really serve little purpose other than RP reasons. Most folks (Id almost hazard everyone) that hunt probably carry around the weapons they specialize in. And Id lean more toward the probability that they are carrying new forged, festival forged quality, or special metal weapons than just a standard crossing shop weapon. Throw in the need for a moon to be up and Id be willing to bet that really the only reason anyone ever uses the spell (other than the few RP scenarios) is just to break it for shards or use the spell battery to quicken a task (like the Astral travel scenario from another thread). This is supposed to be one of our iconic spells and its rarely used... that screams fix me. But I dont think the answer is to take things away from the spell
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
GRIM45
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:18 PM CST
>>I'm not quite sure if that's how it works. From what I gather, spell functions are given a slot cost and total spell cost reflects this functionality. Now, we don't know how much Empower Moonblade will cost when it is released but whatever cost it is given, there is no reason that this cost is directly tied to the cost of Moonblade. If it costs 1 or 2 slots, that would be its cost if it were a stand alone spell, no? This depends on if there is or isn't a deduction in slot cost for meta-spells, but I thought metaspell just meant it became an added function of an existing spell which did not need to be cast separately.
IIRC I thought all metaspells take 1 slot. In addition, I think you're misunderstanding my point.
DR 2.0 One Spell slot = DR 3.0 three spell slot.
DR 2.0 Moonblade (Native Empowred) + Shape Moonblade = 2 2.0 spell slots = 2 * 3 = 6 3.0 Spell slots
DR 3.0 Moonblade + Empower Moonblade + Shape Moonblade = 3 3.0 spell slots
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
IIRC I thought all metaspells take 1 slot. In addition, I think you're misunderstanding my point.
DR 2.0 One Spell slot = DR 3.0 three spell slot.
DR 2.0 Moonblade (Native Empowred) + Shape Moonblade = 2 2.0 spell slots = 2 * 3 = 6 3.0 Spell slots
DR 3.0 Moonblade + Empower Moonblade + Shape Moonblade = 3 3.0 spell slots
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
GRIM45
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:19 PM CST
>>As it is though Moonblade is very weak... in the age of forged weapons they really serve little purpose other than RP reasons.
Moonblades can hit MC steel stats IIRC (with the right forging technique.)
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Moonblades can hit MC steel stats IIRC (with the right forging technique.)
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
BISCLAVRET
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:20 PM CST
>>DR 2.0 One Spell slot = DR 3.0 three spell slot.
Is this science fact? I don't recall anyone official ever breaking it down like that before.
Is this science fact? I don't recall anyone official ever breaking it down like that before.
DARKANGEL23
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:23 PM CST
>>Is this science fact?
In 2.0 we get one spell slot per 3 circles. In 3.0 we get a spell slot for every circle till 50th then a spell slot every other circle till 100th. So what hes sayin is that looking at pre 50th in 3.0 every three slots we get would have equaled one slot in 2.0.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
In 2.0 we get one spell slot per 3 circles. In 3.0 we get a spell slot for every circle till 50th then a spell slot every other circle till 100th. So what hes sayin is that looking at pre 50th in 3.0 every three slots we get would have equaled one slot in 2.0.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
DANFORDS2
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:23 PM CST
>Is this science fact?
I'm pretty sure the average is two slots.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
I'm pretty sure the average is two slots.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
BEVERAGEK
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:27 PM CST
IMO it'd be sweet if moon blades acted like a signet ring or something.
i.e. if you get your hands on a tyrium scimitar, you could cast moonblade and then use some verb(TRANSCRIBE SCIMITAR INTO BLADE) so that whenever you cast moon blade from that point forward it would have the stats of the tyrium scimitar. The tyrium scimitar would of course be destroyed by the process.
The benefit would be that in the case that you did lose the tyrium scimitar, you could always just cast moonblade to effectively have a tyrium scimitar again that looks awesome in the form of a moon blade :P
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
i.e. if you get your hands on a tyrium scimitar, you could cast moonblade and then use some verb(TRANSCRIBE SCIMITAR INTO BLADE) so that whenever you cast moon blade from that point forward it would have the stats of the tyrium scimitar. The tyrium scimitar would of course be destroyed by the process.
The benefit would be that in the case that you did lose the tyrium scimitar, you could always just cast moonblade to effectively have a tyrium scimitar again that looks awesome in the form of a moon blade :P
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
GRIM45
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:30 PM CST
>>I'm pretty sure the average is two slots.
I went back and looked, and I swore they had indicated 3, but indeed it is 2. It changes my math, but not the point. You (general) still come out ahead, just less dramatically so.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
I went back and looked, and I swore they had indicated 3, but indeed it is 2. It changes my math, but not the point. You (general) still come out ahead, just less dramatically so.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
DARKANGEL23
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:30 PM CST
I wouldnt even think it would need to be tyrium level. Some good forged steel stats with a bit of fire or cold (depending on moon) damage tossed in would make this spell AMAZING to me.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
BEVERAGEK
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 08:33 PM CST
>>The benefit would be that in the case that you did lose the tyrium scimitar, you could always just cast moonblade to effectively have a tyrium scimitar again that looks awesome in the form of a moon blade
I should clarify -- This should read, in the case that you were to lose access to a physical weapon that you were using, you could always just cast moonblade to have a tyrium scimitar quality weapon in the form of a moon blade.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
I should clarify -- This should read, in the case that you were to lose access to a physical weapon that you were using, you could always just cast moonblade to have a tyrium scimitar quality weapon in the form of a moon blade.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
CONDEJ
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 09:03 PM CST
Ok, confused by the spellslot costs discussion a bit, but thanks for explaining it that way. I get what you mean by being ahead in general compared to 2.0 in terms of total spell costs. However, I don't think it would matter if we consider 3.0 on its own. Whatever spellslot cost Empower Moonblade is given, I think that cost is unrelated to Moonblade 2.0 or Moonblade 3.0 and only related to whatever value the GMs decide Empower Moonblade is worth. Now considering that prereqs have no impact on a spell's ability or cost from what I understand in 3.0, then my suggestion would change nothing in terms of costs in 3.0. Whatever they decide to give Empower Moonblade will be the cost whether it has Moonblade as a prerequisite or not. This of course is wrong if metaspells do get some sort of break in their spellslot cost to functionality ratio, but I don't think this is the case.
GRIM45
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 09:13 PM CST
>>Ok, confused by the spellslot costs discussion a bit, but thanks for explaining it that way. I get what you mean by being ahead in general compared to 2.0 in terms of total spell costs. However, I don't think it would matter if we consider 3.0 on its own. Whatever spellslot cost Empower Moonblade is given, I think that cost is unrelated to Moonblade 2.0 or Moonblade 3.0 and only related to whatever value the GMs decide Empower Moonblade is worth. Now considering that prereqs have no impact on a spell's ability or cost from what I understand in 3.0, then my suggestion would change nothing in terms of costs in 3.0. Whatever they decide to give Empower Moonblade will be the cost whether it has Moonblade as a prerequisite or not. This of course is wrong if metaspells do get some sort of break in their spellslot cost to functionality ratio, but I don't think this is the case.
Wat.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Wat.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 09:28 PM CST
<and only related to whatever value the GMs decide Empower Moonblade is worth.
Didn't a gm just post in the WM folder stating that to unlock all the aspects for the moonblade spell it would be 5 slots? I think thats where i saw that.
Didn't a gm just post in the WM folder stating that to unlock all the aspects for the moonblade spell it would be 5 slots? I think thats where i saw that.
CONDEJ
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/24/2012 09:44 PM CST
<Wat.>
Just to reiterate my position.
-Empower Moonblade is a planned metaspell that will give back the "spell battery function" of Moonblade 2.0.
-Suggestion: Don't tie Empower Moonblade directly Moonblade. Instead, make it a separate spell that can function with either Moonblade or Moonbeam. Reason: Its function is quite different than Moonblade in general and so, in my opinion, would be better as a stand alone spell.
-If Empower Moonblade's cost is decided to be 2 slots, it would be the same cost whether its a Moonblade metaspell or standalone spell.
-I'm proposing no changes in spellslot costs to anything.
<Didn't a gm just post in the WM folder stating that to unlock all the aspects for the moonblade spell it would be 5 slots? I think thats where i saw that.>
If so then in 3.0 it will be:
Moonblade - 1 Slot.
Shape Moonblade - 2 Slots.
Empower Moonblade - Unknown, but if what you said is true, then 2 Slots.
RAIST
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/25/2012 01:34 AM CST
>Suggestion: Don't tie Empower Moonblade directly Moonblade. Instead, make it a separate spell that can function with either Moonblade or Moonbeam. Reason: Its function is quite different than Moonblade in general and so, in my opinion, would be better as a stand alone spell.
Just for your edification: Moonblade was designed along the lines of the classic mage's staff, blade-ness not withstanding. Thus with that idea in mind, it makes perfect sense.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Just for your edification: Moonblade was designed along the lines of the classic mage's staff, blade-ness not withstanding. Thus with that idea in mind, it makes perfect sense.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
DR-ARMIFER
Re: On Empower Moonblade
12/25/2012 10:27 AM CST
In Lorez terms, it's important to remember that during the formation of the Moon Mage Guild, there was little to no social distinction between Lunar magic and Sorcery. Lunar magic traditions were being wiped out until the Lunar Accord presented a large enough body of Lunar mages to make a political and magical force.
There was an era where having your wizard's staff be a sword was very prudent.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
There was an era where having your wizard's staff be a sword was very prudent.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
