Any chance that with 3.0 rolling out, the number of TDPs that Thieves and to a lesser extent Barbs could be looked at? Right now, magic users (MUs) get to train way more skills in combat at the same time than non-magic users (NMUs), and this is just getting worse with the magic split in 3.0. I know eventually Thieves will get access to some kind of supernatural skillset, but even then the number of skill we are able to train will still be far lower, making the difference in TDPs huge especially at higher circles.
Some ideas to compensate:
1. Give NMUs more TDPs per circle
2. Give NMUs more TDPs per rank gained
MAGIC1300
REWYN
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 03:02 PM CST
With the exception of arcana and sorcery, what magic skills wont Thieves be able to train eventually? Inner Fire(Silence?) replaces Harness. I do pity the situation that certain guilds are in given the changes to skills, but I believe the idea is over time they will work themselves out. Guilds that are going very negative are also getting very large bonus pools due to disappearing skills (which effects thieves a lot!). I believe the idea here is you will make back those tdps quicker, and coupled with grand fathering for supernatural skills you would be back to something around normal.
That is at least how I understand the situation. If they mess with the TDP formula in the short term to bring guilds up to speed, then what happens when you get grand fathered magic skills? Should you also loose those bonus pools you are receiving for skills that will longer exists?
Basically trying to stitch up one hole will create other ones down the way. I spent a decade as a thief, so this is not a GvG thing. I feel following 3.0 release the priority should be to get Barbs, Thieves and Traders on board with the supernatural skill set, and things like expertise and endurance can wait.
That is at least how I understand the situation. If they mess with the TDP formula in the short term to bring guilds up to speed, then what happens when you get grand fathered magic skills? Should you also loose those bonus pools you are receiving for skills that will longer exists?
Basically trying to stitch up one hole will create other ones down the way. I spent a decade as a thief, so this is not a GvG thing. I feel following 3.0 release the priority should be to get Barbs, Thieves and Traders on board with the supernatural skill set, and things like expertise and endurance can wait.
MAGIC1300
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 03:18 PM CST
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Barbs in 3.0 have 4 supernatural/magic skills (Augmentation, Debilitation, Warding, and Inner Fire). That leaves arcana, TM, PM, and utility off from being trained by Barbs. Assuming this will eventually be the same for thieves, we only have half of the magic skillset trainable.
EDERICK
GERSTEINJ2
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 03:25 PM CST
When i've gone thru my characters at the same levels, i've found that TDPs are pretty much equal between my barbs/thieves, and MUs per circle. The only character i come up short with are my traders. There the difference is quite glaring with 2000 less total skills per level <and this is in 3.0>, which of course, comes up to less tdps per level <and I have 'em all on a spreadsheet>. I'm hoping once traders get magic this will be offset somewhat, but the difference right now is glaring. Because of the skill combinations, I am seeing lesser total for barbs, but she still trains enough weapons to make up for it, and with the previously non-counted survivals now counting for thief survival, my thieves are making up for the skill combinations with starting to train those skills as well.
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
REWYN
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 03:34 PM CST
I may stand corrected here in a second, but I dont think there is any hard rule that barbs would never get Utility (or thieves), just that they have nothing at the moment that fills that role. I'll admit this is entirely my speculated guess, so take that with a pound of salt.
I do generally agree that if there is a large discrepancy between the amount of skills you can train vs another guild, that is a problem. I believe a good idea would be to have every skill trainable by every guild, with each guild then having 1 'unique' skill in their primary skill set. I have never been a fan of the general barring of NMU guilds from using magical arcane items (see runes & thieves). I hope with 'magic' becoming 'supernatural' that the definition of the underlying skills such as TM can be made more vague to allow for NMU abilities to funnel off them. We have already established that every guild is in some respect supernatural in 3.0, so I no longer see the issue with Thieves and Barbs doing something fancy and flashy, as long as it adheres to their style and keeps the general flavor of the guild in mind.
TLDR: I generally agree with you, but think things wont be as bad as they seem.
I do generally agree that if there is a large discrepancy between the amount of skills you can train vs another guild, that is a problem. I believe a good idea would be to have every skill trainable by every guild, with each guild then having 1 'unique' skill in their primary skill set. I have never been a fan of the general barring of NMU guilds from using magical arcane items (see runes & thieves). I hope with 'magic' becoming 'supernatural' that the definition of the underlying skills such as TM can be made more vague to allow for NMU abilities to funnel off them. We have already established that every guild is in some respect supernatural in 3.0, so I no longer see the issue with Thieves and Barbs doing something fancy and flashy, as long as it adheres to their style and keeps the general flavor of the guild in mind.
TLDR: I generally agree with you, but think things wont be as bad as they seem.
NINEVAH1
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 03:49 PM CST
Thieves will only be able to train Inner Magic, Augmentation, and maybe Warding with their abilities. Arcana will probably be able to be trained by everyone in some form or fashion once new enchanting is released.
That said I don't really think that anyone should get anymore TDPs per circle than anyone else. This is a dead horse argument that the GMs have said isn't accurate. When it comes down to it your guild really doesn't decide how many TDPs you get, it's your training style. Some guilds may have an easier time gaining them than others, but it really comes down to how you play your character.
Also I'm pretty sure that in 3.0 the skill distribution is pretty even across all the skillsets so everyone should have around the same amount of skills in their primary skillset (except maybe weapons).
That said I don't really think that anyone should get anymore TDPs per circle than anyone else. This is a dead horse argument that the GMs have said isn't accurate. When it comes down to it your guild really doesn't decide how many TDPs you get, it's your training style. Some guilds may have an easier time gaining them than others, but it really comes down to how you play your character.
Also I'm pretty sure that in 3.0 the skill distribution is pretty even across all the skillsets so everyone should have around the same amount of skills in their primary skillset (except maybe weapons).
TEVESHSZAT
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 04:35 PM CST
1) Barbarians can use almost all magic skills. I think the only ones they can't use are TM an Arcana, right?
2) Since Thieves will someday have their skills set to run on magic, I have a feeling that it will be kinda insane to give them some default TDP bonus just for the sake of not being able to get TDPs from magic outside of learning, since it would then eventually be taken away. Also, it's a bit of a silly way to resolve the disparity.
3) If anything, it's Thieves and Traders who are missing out on TDPs from magic, but even then they'll both be using magic eventually.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
2) Since Thieves will someday have their skills set to run on magic, I have a feeling that it will be kinda insane to give them some default TDP bonus just for the sake of not being able to get TDPs from magic outside of learning, since it would then eventually be taken away. Also, it's a bit of a silly way to resolve the disparity.
3) If anything, it's Thieves and Traders who are missing out on TDPs from magic, but even then they'll both be using magic eventually.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
DANFORDS2
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 04:46 PM CST
>the only ones they can't use are TM an Arcana
I don't think they'll have access to Attunement and Sorcery, either. They can train Arcana, it just hurts their IF pool I believe. I think that should go away, personally. Why would knowing how to wave a wand, or use some other self-activating device, hurt your IF?
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
I don't think they'll have access to Attunement and Sorcery, either. They can train Arcana, it just hurts their IF pool I believe. I think that should go away, personally. Why would knowing how to wave a wand, or use some other self-activating device, hurt your IF?
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
TEVESHSZAT
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 04:51 PM CST
>>I don't think they'll have access to Attunement and Sorcery, either.
I didn't realize that IF doesn't use Attunement, and I completely forgot about Sorcery. I think someone else mentioned that they don't have any Utility things (yet?), either.
>>They can train Arcana, it just hurts their IF pool I believe. I think that should go away, personally. Why would knowing how to wave a wand, or use some other self-activating device, hurt your IF?
IMO, it shouldn't be a matter of knowing a skill and work more like Divine/Teleological Corruption. So using/doing/etc magic stuff can corrupt your IF, but it eventually goes away (to an extent) if you stop it. But that's a whole different discussion.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
I didn't realize that IF doesn't use Attunement, and I completely forgot about Sorcery. I think someone else mentioned that they don't have any Utility things (yet?), either.
>>They can train Arcana, it just hurts their IF pool I believe. I think that should go away, personally. Why would knowing how to wave a wand, or use some other self-activating device, hurt your IF?
IMO, it shouldn't be a matter of knowing a skill and work more like Divine/Teleological Corruption. So using/doing/etc magic stuff can corrupt your IF, but it eventually goes away (to an extent) if you stop it. But that's a whole different discussion.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
BEVERAGEK
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 06:00 PM CST
IIRC Inner Fire is the equivalent of Primary Magic + Attunement. Targeted Magic and Sorcery are the only magic skills that Barbarians won't be able to train, and possibly Utility.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
VEE-REX
Re: TDP imbalance
01/03/2013 07:55 PM CST
The TDP imbalance has been somewhat fixed for Barbs vs. magic using guilds, or it at least brings one side closer to the other. I have no complaints in those regards.
Remember, circle is an absolutely terrible way to weigh tdp imbalances because circle does not take time into account. You had 80th Barbarians who took 6 years to get there and trained every weapon compared to 80th mages who got there in 1 year and it just wasn't an accurate reflection on the whole situation.
Anyway, it's an equine cemetery topic and even though I do believe the imbalance is still there (it's pretty nuts for guilds that can train so many skills nearly at once in and out of combat 24/7), over time things should balance out a bit more. Thieves and Traders are the ones that suffer more right now but eventually they'll get there.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Remember, circle is an absolutely terrible way to weigh tdp imbalances because circle does not take time into account. You had 80th Barbarians who took 6 years to get there and trained every weapon compared to 80th mages who got there in 1 year and it just wasn't an accurate reflection on the whole situation.
Anyway, it's an equine cemetery topic and even though I do believe the imbalance is still there (it's pretty nuts for guilds that can train so many skills nearly at once in and out of combat 24/7), over time things should balance out a bit more. Thieves and Traders are the ones that suffer more right now but eventually they'll get there.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
GERSTEINJ2
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 12:20 AM CST
<<circle is an absolutely terrible way to weigh tdp imbalances because circle does not take time into account.>>
i'm only comparing my own characters <to each other> who are the same circle, and i pretty much spend the equivalent amount of time on each.<i.e. i'll spend one week training my barb, the next week training my wm, etc.>
Again, i'm only seeing disparity on the trader.
the tdp negative on my prime thief will not be a fun thing though. but i really don't spend that much time in prime, so, eh..
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
i'm only comparing my own characters <to each other> who are the same circle, and i pretty much spend the equivalent amount of time on each.<i.e. i'll spend one week training my barb, the next week training my wm, etc.>
Again, i'm only seeing disparity on the trader.
the tdp negative on my prime thief will not be a fun thing though. but i really don't spend that much time in prime, so, eh..
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
VEE-REX
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 12:43 AM CST
>>i'm only comparing my own characters <to each other> who are the same circle, and i pretty much spend the equivalent amount of time on each.<i.e. i'll spend one week training my barb, the next week training my wm, etc.>
>>Again, i'm only seeing disparity on the trader.
The disparity grows wider the higher the characters are. If I take two newbs and train them up to circle 30, it won't be as bad if it's even noticable.
If I push them both to 150+, and that WM has 5 magic skills all at 800-1000+ ranks, the tdp difference is a lot more noticable assuming both were given the equal amount of time to train. Not to mention differences in min-maxing, the effects of being able to train more skills out of combat when you want to socialize/RP (if I want to socialize/RP a lot on both, by the time they get higher the WM will blow the Barb out of the water in terms of tdps gained), along with other variables and you'll see a wider range of imbalances in prime. Of course, a well-trained NMU can match the tdp gain of a poorly trained MU, and this is sometimes the case when comparing just circles (and not time invested, although this would be too much of a hassle anyway). That's all I meant.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
>>Again, i'm only seeing disparity on the trader.
The disparity grows wider the higher the characters are. If I take two newbs and train them up to circle 30, it won't be as bad if it's even noticable.
If I push them both to 150+, and that WM has 5 magic skills all at 800-1000+ ranks, the tdp difference is a lot more noticable assuming both were given the equal amount of time to train. Not to mention differences in min-maxing, the effects of being able to train more skills out of combat when you want to socialize/RP (if I want to socialize/RP a lot on both, by the time they get higher the WM will blow the Barb out of the water in terms of tdps gained), along with other variables and you'll see a wider range of imbalances in prime. Of course, a well-trained NMU can match the tdp gain of a poorly trained MU, and this is sometimes the case when comparing just circles (and not time invested, although this would be too much of a hassle anyway). That's all I meant.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
MAGIC1300
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 10:35 AM CST
The imbalance will be worse in 3.0. Thieves and Barbs are losing skills from their primary skillset, while MUs are gaining skills in their magic skillset. I'm not asking for a temporary solution to bridge the gap between when Thieves get a few magic skills, I'm asking for a permanent solution to the fact that MUs have 4 extra skills in the magic skillset that they can train without too much effort that leads to a large disparity.
In a game where the stats play a large role in contests, a well trained character from any guild should have roughly the same number of TDPs as a well trained character from another guild. That's not possible in 3.0 and should really be addressed.
In a game where the stats play a large role in contests, a well trained character from any guild should have roughly the same number of TDPs as a well trained character from another guild. That's not possible in 3.0 and should really be addressed.
LHALLFIN
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 10:57 AM CST
>I'm not asking for a temporary solution to bridge the gap between when Thieves get a few magic skills, I'm asking for a permanent solution to the fact that MUs have 4 extra skills in the magic skillset that they can train without too much effort that leads to a large disparity.
Sorry what? You don't want a stop gap, but you're like "fix it naow!"
They know some guilds are getting the tdp shaft right now. They have acknowledged it. It's something that is going to have to wait.
3.0 is NOT the end product.
3.0 is the beginning.
3.0 is the scaffolding on which a lot of things can be built.
For some things. You may have to wait longer (but hopefully not another 5 years).
P.S. I'm losing about 5000 tdps, Really dont care. I'm going to go negative. Not reroll (so Im not losing a single thing) and in a no time flat thanks to my MASSIVE Survival Bonus Pool, I'll be raking in the points again.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 11:07 AM CST
>>That's not possible in 3.0 and should really be addressed.
I'm all for addressing it, but giving some guilds more TDPs isn't the solution.
Right now, the setup is...
So there are 6 armors, 9 lore, 9 magic, 9 survival, and 18 weapons, at least if didn't leave anything out that isn't a guild skill. So that's a total of 51 skills.
Most guilds have 100% access to all those skills. Non-Barbarian NMUs lack access to ~18% of skills in the game. Do I think that is an issue? Yes. That's a notable chunk of skills! Do I think the solution is more TDPs? No. I think the solution is to integrate khri into running on magic skills. Traders are already being theoretically addressed by plans to give them a lunar-based spellbook. Barbarians are already being integrated into the magic skillset rather well, and now just need a utility. IMO, IF should also use attunement somehow, but that's my armchair GMing. Give them the abililty to learn arcana via chakrel and/or self-activating/invoked MDs and they'd be pretty much set. Locking NMUs out from just sorcery is no biggie to me, since it's just one skill that they could learn via classes if they really wanted.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
I'm all for addressing it, but giving some guilds more TDPs isn't the solution.
Right now, the setup is...
| skillset | |||||
| armor | brigandine | chain | defending | light | plate |
| shield | |||||
| lore | alchemy | appraisal | enchanting | engineering | forging |
| outfitting | performance | scholarship | tactics | ||
| magic | arcana | attunement | augmentation | debilitation | primary magic |
| sorcery | targeted magic | utility | warding | ||
| survival | athletics | evasion | first aid | locksmithing | outdoorsmanship |
| perception | skinning | stealth | thievery | ||
| weapon | bows | brawling | crossbows | light thrown | large blunt |
| large edged | heavy thrown | melee mastery | missile mastery | offhand weapon | |
| parry | polearms | slings | small blunt | small edged | |
| staves | two handed blunt | two handed edged |
So there are 6 armors, 9 lore, 9 magic, 9 survival, and 18 weapons, at least if didn't leave anything out that isn't a guild skill. So that's a total of 51 skills.
Most guilds have 100% access to all those skills. Non-Barbarian NMUs lack access to ~18% of skills in the game. Do I think that is an issue? Yes. That's a notable chunk of skills! Do I think the solution is more TDPs? No. I think the solution is to integrate khri into running on magic skills. Traders are already being theoretically addressed by plans to give them a lunar-based spellbook. Barbarians are already being integrated into the magic skillset rather well, and now just need a utility. IMO, IF should also use attunement somehow, but that's my armchair GMing. Give them the abililty to learn arcana via chakrel and/or self-activating/invoked MDs and they'd be pretty much set. Locking NMUs out from just sorcery is no biggie to me, since it's just one skill that they could learn via classes if they really wanted.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
SHADOW7988
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 11:11 AM CST
>3.0 is the scaffolding on which a lot of things can be built.
I agree with everything your saying, besides that. I think what your trying to say that 3.0 is titanium rebar reinforced foundation, on which everything can be build up from.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
I agree with everything your saying, besides that. I think what your trying to say that 3.0 is titanium rebar reinforced foundation, on which everything can be build up from.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
MELLIONM6
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 11:42 AM CST
Wasn't there going to be a change to the way TDPs were going to be calculated that would more or less negate this problem anyhow? Fewer skills counting towards TDPs at a faster rate with remaining skills counting for much, much less? Warranted, I've been out of that loop for quite some time, so if it's changed, let me know and I'll speak no further until I have better information.
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
MAGIC1300
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 12:00 PM CST
> Sorry what? You don't want a stop gap, but you're like "fix it naow!"
I'm saying that I want them to fix it for Barbs and Thieves now, since barbs are locked out of 4 skills from the magic skillset and I assume once Thieves are given supernatural abilities, they'll be in roughly the same boat. It's a permanent solution that would leave Barbs on more equal footing at the start of 3.0, and Thieves/Traders eventually.
I think we can all agree that Barbs/Thieves get the shaft TDP-wise, even if we disagree on potential solutions. 3.0 is the right time for figuring out the correct solution to a real problem. Some thoughts:
1. Give all guilds access to the entire magic skillset with ways to train
2. Give the guilds without full magic access extra TDPs from some other source to compensate
2a. Extra TDPs from circling
2b. Extra TDPs from their guild only skill
2c. Extra TDPs from their primary skillset
3. Make mentals cheaper for us since they do less
I'd like to hear other people's suggestions too... most any solution would be better than nothing.
I'm saying that I want them to fix it for Barbs and Thieves now, since barbs are locked out of 4 skills from the magic skillset and I assume once Thieves are given supernatural abilities, they'll be in roughly the same boat. It's a permanent solution that would leave Barbs on more equal footing at the start of 3.0, and Thieves/Traders eventually.
I think we can all agree that Barbs/Thieves get the shaft TDP-wise, even if we disagree on potential solutions. 3.0 is the right time for figuring out the correct solution to a real problem. Some thoughts:
1. Give all guilds access to the entire magic skillset with ways to train
2. Give the guilds without full magic access extra TDPs from some other source to compensate
2a. Extra TDPs from circling
2b. Extra TDPs from their guild only skill
2c. Extra TDPs from their primary skillset
3. Make mentals cheaper for us since they do less
I'd like to hear other people's suggestions too... most any solution would be better than nothing.
REWYN
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 12:08 PM CST
Not intending to GvG here, but I think this will sort itself out. Also there are other instances where skills are bared or soft bared from guilds (Paladins and stealing/training hiding effectively). Not being able to train 2 or 3 skills is hardly the end of the world.
I think we need to see how things settle after the introduction of new skills, new abilities, and the furthering of the arcana skill with enchanting.
I think we need to see how things settle after the introduction of new skills, new abilities, and the furthering of the arcana skill with enchanting.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 12:48 PM CST
>>Wasn't there going to be a change to the way TDPs were going to be calculated that would more or less negate this problem anyhow? Fewer skills counting towards TDPs at a faster rate with remaining skills counting for much, much less? Warranted, I've been out of that loop for quite some time, so if it's changed, let me know and I'll speak no further until I have better information.
All the other TDP models essentially caused an even bigger imbalance than they solved, so they were scrapped.
>>2. Give the guilds without full magic access extra TDPs from some other source to compensate
This is the wrong way to go for two reasons.
1) It assumes that the "extra TDPs" based on a theoretical idea, that NMUs would train magic in manner X if they could.
2) If it over assumes how hard those NMUs would train, then when they are fully linked to magic they'll have their TDPs go down then. And then we'll have this same argument because their magics will probably be grandfathered based on minimum circle requirements, which is the only reasonable metric to use for grandfathering in a void.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
All the other TDP models essentially caused an even bigger imbalance than they solved, so they were scrapped.
>>2. Give the guilds without full magic access extra TDPs from some other source to compensate
This is the wrong way to go for two reasons.
1) It assumes that the "extra TDPs" based on a theoretical idea, that NMUs would train magic in manner X if they could.
2) If it over assumes how hard those NMUs would train, then when they are fully linked to magic they'll have their TDPs go down then. And then we'll have this same argument because their magics will probably be grandfathered based on minimum circle requirements, which is the only reasonable metric to use for grandfathering in a void.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
DANFORDS2
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 12:58 PM CST
My solution to the "TDP imbalance" every time it's come up in the past has been to remove TDPs entirely, and make stats train the same way as skills. When you use it, you get better at it.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
LHALLFIN
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 01:18 PM CST
>I agree with everything your saying, besides that. I think what your trying to say that 3.0 is titanium rebar reinforced foundation, on which everything can be build up from.
Yeah I get what your saying, I just don't think of it as a foundation because the core of DR is very much still there. Just spent 2 hours in test running my usual routine without really changing a thing.
I guess what I mean in my mind is that the test and launch of 3.0 is the scaffolding from which DR 2.0 can be renovated, like a old building.
Yay semantics. Yay no edit post button.
REWYN
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 01:27 PM CST
>>My solution to the "TDP imbalance" every time it's come up in the past has been to remove TDPs entirely, and make stats train the same way as skills. When you use it, you get better at it.
Adore this idea. Not sure how it would be implemented now though.
Adore this idea. Not sure how it would be implemented now though.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 03:05 PM CST
>>Yeah I get what your saying, I just don't think of it as a foundation because the core of DR is very much still there. Just spent 2 hours in test running my usual routine without really changing a thing.
A lot of the 3.0 stuff involved back end development. It's not meant to be visually different as much as provide the structure that allows new things to be created in an easier/more consistant/reasonable manner.
The fact that you're running your usual routine without notable differences means it is working.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
A lot of the 3.0 stuff involved back end development. It's not meant to be visually different as much as provide the structure that allows new things to be created in an easier/more consistant/reasonable manner.
The fact that you're running your usual routine without notable differences means it is working.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
GERSTEINJ2
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 10:05 PM CST
<<The imbalance will be worse in 3.0. Thieves and Barbs are losing skills from their primary skillset, while MUs are gaining skills in their magic skillset. I'm not asking for a temporary solution to bridge the gap between when Thieves get a few magic skills, I'm asking for a permanent solution to the fact that MUs have 4 extra skills in the magic skillset that they can train without too much effort that leads to a large disparity.>>
It still evens out though.Here's my WM and Barb: both are circle 61 platside, where 3.0 has been in now for a few months.Skills and stats:
It still evens out though.Here's my WM and Barb: both are circle 61 platside, where 3.0 has been in now for a few months.Skills and stats:
| Skillset | Barbarian | WM |
| survival | 1435 | 965 |
| weapon | 2768 | 1292 |
| armor | 1168 | 854 |
| magic | 399 | 2435 |
| lore | 694 | 785 |
| TOT | 6464 | 6331 |
| STAT | 263 | 261 |
| <<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>> |
BLUESUEDESHOES
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 10:42 PM CST
>>It still evens out though.<<
No. It does not.
My 150th warmage had over 6,000 more total ranks than my 150th barbarian. This is what Vinjince and others have been saying. At high levels the tdp disparity is huge. 61st circle anything is a n00b. It might take me 3 month to get any character of any guild to 61st circle. I would not expect a tdp or rank difference at such a low circle, but it becomes evident about 90 to 100, and drastic at 125+. Get back to us when you pass the 100 circle mark.
Elvis has left the building.
No. It does not.
My 150th warmage had over 6,000 more total ranks than my 150th barbarian. This is what Vinjince and others have been saying. At high levels the tdp disparity is huge. 61st circle anything is a n00b. It might take me 3 month to get any character of any guild to 61st circle. I would not expect a tdp or rank difference at such a low circle, but it becomes evident about 90 to 100, and drastic at 125+. Get back to us when you pass the 100 circle mark.
Elvis has left the building.
DANFORDS2
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 11:01 PM CST
>No. It does not.
Since the GMs (who have way more data than your two data points) have said it does. No TDP Imbalance exists in 2.0. Insisting it does is a dead horse, and you should really stop.
In 3.0, I imagine if one does exist it will be gone once bonus pools drain. The major exception is Thieves who are losing skills and gaining none, which will eventually be remedied.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
Since the GMs (who have way more data than your two data points) have said it does. No TDP Imbalance exists in 2.0. Insisting it does is a dead horse, and you should really stop.
In 3.0, I imagine if one does exist it will be gone once bonus pools drain. The major exception is Thieves who are losing skills and gaining none, which will eventually be remedied.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
GERSTEINJ2
Re: TDP imbalance
01/04/2013 11:02 PM CST
<<It might take me 3 month to get any character of any guild to 61st circle>>
evidently you have too much time on your hands. <G> it's taken me 3 years :-)
although i've also trained every other guild to 40th <except rangers>, and a cleric,thief and trader to 50+, and a necro to 108 in that time frame as well :-) i'd compare stats on the thief vs necro, but one is still 2.0 while the other is 3.0, so i'll have to wait until they are the same circle.
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
evidently you have too much time on your hands. <G> it's taken me 3 years :-)
although i've also trained every other guild to 40th <except rangers>, and a cleric,thief and trader to 50+, and a necro to 108 in that time frame as well :-) i'd compare stats on the thief vs necro, but one is still 2.0 while the other is 3.0, so i'll have to wait until they are the same circle.
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
BLUESUEDESHOES
Re: TDP imbalance
01/05/2013 05:48 AM CST
>>Since the GMs (who have way more data than your two data points) have said it does. No TDP Imbalance exists in 2.0. Insisting it does is a dead horse, and you should really stop.<<
I know what the GM's have said, yet this is still an issue that keeps popping up. Players of NMU's, recognizing that there IS a disparity, end up training all 23 weapons, not because they enjoy it, but to make up the tdp differential. They also end up wearing patchwork armor while training because... ah, there's that tdp differential. Yes, I know this is equine cemetary material, but so many NMU's compensate by training skills they would otherwise leave out...
Elvis has left the building.
I know what the GM's have said, yet this is still an issue that keeps popping up. Players of NMU's, recognizing that there IS a disparity, end up training all 23 weapons, not because they enjoy it, but to make up the tdp differential. They also end up wearing patchwork armor while training because... ah, there's that tdp differential. Yes, I know this is equine cemetary material, but so many NMU's compensate by training skills they would otherwise leave out...
Elvis has left the building.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: TDP imbalance
01/05/2013 06:04 AM CST
actually, using patchwork armor is not recommended in 3.0. They're talking about <not yet implemented> adding RT for taking off/putting on various types of armor. Although my barbarian continues to use such - not because of tdps alone - but because the only roar helm with actual protection is chain, and her primary armor is leather, so... she trained both by default.
As far as I'm aware the roar "helms" at recent fests made of leather were not protective of head/eyes,neck, besides which they are upwards of 50 plat and thats just not an investment I can purchase every time they change templates. Plus i like the "look" of the one i already have.
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
As far as I'm aware the roar "helms" at recent fests made of leather were not protective of head/eyes,neck, besides which they are upwards of 50 plat and thats just not an investment I can purchase every time they change templates. Plus i like the "look" of the one i already have.
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
VEE-REX
Re: TDP imbalance
01/05/2013 08:23 AM CST
>>Since the GMs (who have way more data than your two data points) have said it does. No TDP Imbalance exists in 2.0. Insisting it does is a dead horse, and you should really stop.
The GMs have went back into the Barb folder after years and said there might be a TDP Imbalance, and it's one of the reasons Barbs will use Supernatural skillset in 3.0. I say there definitely is. You are right that it's a dead horse and should stop.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
The GMs have went back into the Barb folder after years and said there might be a TDP Imbalance, and it's one of the reasons Barbs will use Supernatural skillset in 3.0. I say there definitely is. You are right that it's a dead horse and should stop.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: TDP imbalance
01/09/2013 12:37 AM CST
>>You are right that it's a dead horse and should stop.
This.
Nobody is getting a TDP boost. Eventually (short term goal, here), all guilds will be using all skillsets, and this won't be an issue. Giving a temporary boost really only leads to unnecessary complexity in the code and a pain in the butt to remove properly later.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
This.
Nobody is getting a TDP boost. Eventually (short term goal, here), all guilds will be using all skillsets, and this won't be an issue. Giving a temporary boost really only leads to unnecessary complexity in the code and a pain in the butt to remove properly later.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
