IMO, the problem with wail/strike are diminishing returns and the problem with nerfing diminishing returns is (imo) that it seems like a significant portion of barbarian attacking power was sacrificed to allow us to be able to chain our debuffs/disablers - there's really no reason to explain the insignificant duration other then that they were meant to be chained. They have the lowest durations of any debuffs, and being able to only fire them off once or twice in a 5m+ fight totally defeats their usefulness as our only debuffs/disablers and the other side of barbarian attack power.

Leilond's example was a bad example in that hes one of the only people that a roar mask is required to 'blow through the last iota of resistance' and let's not forget that if a roar doesn't succeed once, not counting additional boosters it will fail outright every time.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>> I dunno, in that bad example of mine you were getting some hefty immobilization times... Like 30+ seconds minimum each time. That was with the mask though -- Maybe you're talking about without using any props.

I was making two points. Firstly, that if diminishing returns on wail/strike get looked at, so should diminishing returns on other guild's disablers. Just because they're easier for barbs to chain/trigger doesn't mean that other guilds can't chain theirs to infinity, either. I've seen how absurd building balance can be in combat - I reckon that if you can keep someone stunned long enough to build your balance while keeping theirs neutral, pairing that with your guild offensive weapon buffs can allow you to overcome tremendous rank differences. If you can stack debuffs on top of those, even moreso - land the debuffs first, then devote all mana to disablers. The same result could be achieved albeit at a slightly higher cost.

The other point was just to clarify that the disablers are in need of tweaking, and not the debuffs. I bring this up because people seem to think 'roars are broken' when being able to chain debuffs grants us nothing that other guilds can't already do for much longer durations. It's really just strike and wail - I would imagine the concentration stun could use looking at too, unless mages like their ability to cast spells being permanently frozen while fighting barbarians, lol.

Comment on your post about boosters, I really don't think the enhancers that are making a big difference. With cyclone and paint up, I was probably barely below being able to roar you. I'm thinking the mask just pushed me over the edge(remember, I failed a few times as well even using the mask).

Psychic shield and whatever bard buff you were using seem to have different effects. PS reduced the duration of wail by about half and didn't affect strike at all, whereas yours just made roars in general harder to land. We never tested strike either, but I have a feeling that anti-stun you were using would've broken through it.

Oh, and sorry for the topic change. I thought I hit reply and didn't bother to check the title thread, so when I hit post it told me I had to enter a subject, but then proceeded to post it anyways(think its a bug).

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>>Chain-anything

Sux. Disablers (web/stun/sleep/etc) need to some sort of effect timer that doesn't allow them to stack.

Ex:

1) Diggan BranchBreaks Leilond
2) Leilond is stunned for 20 seconds
2a) 20s should be the cap for completely disabled, maybe longer for webs, or spell stoppers, say 30seconds)
3) Leilond has a "branch break spell effect" on him for 60seconds that makes him immune to bb
or
3a) Diggan can't summon the forces of nature to drop on him again that quickly.

This way, the worst case scenario is that Leilond has 40sec to FLEE or get in the Fight.

Should be the same for everyone, otherwise you have the same thing you have now with Moon Mages (kings of PvP!).

Besides, sitting there and taking a beating like a rag doll for anything more than 20 seconds is really frustrating.

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Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry

>> All Barbarian disablers should be using the same mechanics as spell and other types of disablers - including duration.

I was referring to our debuffs which last about 30 seconds tops.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>> I was referring to our debuffs

Magical debuffs only last around 30 seconds now? Hmm, not sure how I overlooked that.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

The disablers that barbs use last more than standard magical disablers. Not sure how you missed that, or how they did either.

As far as I've tested, max success on most disablers lasts 20-25 seconds at the high end. From what was posted before, barb disablers were going up to the 60 second range. Sounds a little fishy to me.

<I said debuffs, not disablers. On disablers, I didn't miss it, I'm the person who discovered that it was an issue. It's really not wise to talk when you don't have a grasp on what's being discussed.

Pretty sure I do have a grasp on whats being discussed. Regardless, like whats been talked about before with barbarian roars, they are instantaneous and unless a debuff is cast with a crapton of mana they aren't worth a crap either... If they even succeed in the first place. Yes, with spells the less mana you use does matter with the outcome if the spell hits or not.

>> Pretty sure I do have a grasp on whats being discussed. Regardless, like whats been talked about before with barbarian roars, they are instantaneous and unless a debuff is cast with a crapton of mana they aren't worth a crap either... If they even succeed in the first place. Yes, with spells the less mana you use does matter with the outcome if the spell hits or not.

They're instantanious, but they have a 2 second RT which makes them difficult to stack since their max duration is ~30 seconds, which is the highest I've gotten on anyone with 87 Charisma and every other stat the same or higher. Mana regens much faster than voice(especially at the lower end of the mana pool), and from my experience magical debuffs tend to last a lot longer on average. Not the case with every debuff, but certainly overall.

I'm really not sure how their effectiveness compares to other debuffs. I'll test it when I get the chance.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>>Granted I could get that same 20 seconds with like 50 mana or so,

Spell disabler/debuff duration should depend mostly on the amount of mana used. If not, something is likely wrong. You shouldn't get 20 seconds at 50 mana, and 20 seconds at 100 mana.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>Spell disabler/debuff duration should depend mostly on the amount of mana used. If not, something is likely wrong. You shouldn't get 20 seconds at 50 mana, and 20 seconds at 100 mana.

I thought there was a cap on how long certain things last, like stuns/immobilizations/webs/etc. If people are blowing their targets out of the water in those checks, wouldn't they hit the cap to those way before dumping the maximum amount of mana possible?

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>>If people are blowing their targets out of the water in those checks, wouldn't they hit the cap to those way before dumping the maximum amount of mana possible?

No. Otherwise mana really means nothing in the contest once you have some skill. Why make spells cost mana at all? Granted, mana isn't the old factor in the duration. But a min mana spell should always have less duration than a capped spell.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Yeah, once folks return from vacation we'll investigate.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes