Previous
It has come to my attention that Eliminate is undergoing major changes. At current it has 1 RT activation, and lasts a duration of 9ish seconds, on test. For one melee attack you ignore armor and shield. This is a very drastic change from what eliminate did for many years, and thus i think it needs to be re-evaluated entirely. Ricinus has made it very clear that Eliminate must have some sort of RT, so the old system for an instant, short duration eliminate of one hit is in the past. So how much RT should it be? And how long do we have to make that one strike?
I think we should also consider requesting to have the -shield penalty removed. The duration and potency of Eliminate as set by Ricinus is being influenced by the existence of the -shield debuff, which 99% of thieves don't use since eliminate is intended for backstab. In short, Eliminate is weaker and shorter than its potential, because it includes the shield debuff.
My idea for eliminate.. I think the armor debuff is helpful and loved by all, but the duration is outright painful. I think the shield debuff should be swapped out for something we actually use, like longer duration, more than one hit, bonus FoI on the attack, or reduced RT on the one attack.
These are my personal opinions as a thief, i ask my fellow thieves out there to give input on this as well, so eliminate can be made into a tool we can all love and enjoy.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
DEFOL
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/21/2013 03:43 AM CST
<< I think we should also consider requesting to have the -shield penalty removed.
Isn't shield still contested if you fail the stealth check? Then it would be still pretty useful, especially for snipe.
<< This is a very drastic change from what eliminate did for many years, and thus i think it needs to be re-evaluated entirely.
I don't know, from the sound of it, only for the better. Don't forget, as of 3.0 armor is a big deal and it doesn't matter, any straight hit will cause considerable damage. I can't give you any insight from PVP point of view but it sounds good in theory at least.
Now, Eliminate has always been a PVP niche, what i would like to see is this ability made useful in a PVE situation when there is no armor involved. Maybe some kind of flat damage bonus for PVE?
>khri start eliminate
Honing your mind and body to a single purpose, you prepare to execute the perfect strike against a Misenseor resuscitant, clearly noticing a weak spot.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
>stalk
You quickly slip into hiding to prepare to stalk.
You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
You are convinced that your stalking went unobserved.
You move into position to stalk a Misenseor resuscitant when it moves.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>backstab
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Misenseor resuscitant!
< Moving as one fluid extension of power, you thrust a haralun stiletto at a Misenseor resuscitant. A Misenseor resuscitant attempts to dodge, avoiding only some of the blow. The stiletto lands a strong hit to the resuscitant head.
[You're nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
>
Your concentration fails, as you lose focus on your target.
...
>backstab
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Misenseor resuscitant!
< Driving in like an adept combatant, you thrust a haralun stiletto at a Misenseor resuscitant. A Misenseor resuscitant attempts to dodge, moving directly into the blow. The stiletto lands a solid hit to the resuscitant neck.
[You're bruised, adeptly balanced and in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
Isn't shield still contested if you fail the stealth check? Then it would be still pretty useful, especially for snipe.
<< This is a very drastic change from what eliminate did for many years, and thus i think it needs to be re-evaluated entirely.
I don't know, from the sound of it, only for the better. Don't forget, as of 3.0 armor is a big deal and it doesn't matter, any straight hit will cause considerable damage. I can't give you any insight from PVP point of view but it sounds good in theory at least.
Now, Eliminate has always been a PVP niche, what i would like to see is this ability made useful in a PVE situation when there is no armor involved. Maybe some kind of flat damage bonus for PVE?
>khri start eliminate
Honing your mind and body to a single purpose, you prepare to execute the perfect strike against a Misenseor resuscitant, clearly noticing a weak spot.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
>stalk
You quickly slip into hiding to prepare to stalk.
You melt into the background, convinced that your attempt to hide went unobserved.
You are convinced that your stalking went unobserved.
You move into position to stalk a Misenseor resuscitant when it moves.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>backstab
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Misenseor resuscitant!
< Moving as one fluid extension of power, you thrust a haralun stiletto at a Misenseor resuscitant. A Misenseor resuscitant attempts to dodge, avoiding only some of the blow. The stiletto lands a strong hit to the resuscitant head.
[You're nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
>
Your concentration fails, as you lose focus on your target.
...
>backstab
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Misenseor resuscitant!
< Driving in like an adept combatant, you thrust a haralun stiletto at a Misenseor resuscitant. A Misenseor resuscitant attempts to dodge, moving directly into the blow. The stiletto lands a solid hit to the resuscitant neck.
[You're bruised, adeptly balanced and in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
ROBERTDH
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/21/2013 02:01 PM CST
>Now, Eliminate has always been a PVP niche, what i would like to see is this ability made useful in a PVE situation when there is no armor involved. Maybe some kind of flat damage bonus for PVE?
Are critters that don't have invisible armor?
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
Are critters that don't have invisible armor?
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/21/2013 03:08 PM CST
> Isn't shield still contested if you fail the stealth check? Then it would be still pretty useful, especially for snipe.
eliminate only works with melee weapons. I would not be opposed to having it work with 1 attack in general though
> I don't know, from the sound of it, only for the better. Don't forget, as of 3.0 armor is a big deal and it doesn't matter, any straight hit will cause considerable damage. I can't give you any insight from PVP point of view but it sounds good in theory at least.
An opponent who rivals you in defensive skill will take barely any extra damage from 1 single attack due to barriers and the way defenses/damage is calculated, armor vs armorless only shows through when you outclass the person. The armor reduction just serves as a way to pick on people easier.
> Now, Eliminate has always been a PVP niche, what i would like to see is this ability made useful in a PVE situation when there is no armor involved. Maybe some kind of flat damage bonus for PVE?
I do like the idea of eliminate having a flat damage bonus for the attack, it would help to make eliminate worth while on level and while hunting. The benefits don't necessarily have to be damage based though. What if eliminate caused your next attack to keep you in hiding, or lowered the RT of the next attack.
eliminate only works with melee weapons. I would not be opposed to having it work with 1 attack in general though
> I don't know, from the sound of it, only for the better. Don't forget, as of 3.0 armor is a big deal and it doesn't matter, any straight hit will cause considerable damage. I can't give you any insight from PVP point of view but it sounds good in theory at least.
An opponent who rivals you in defensive skill will take barely any extra damage from 1 single attack due to barriers and the way defenses/damage is calculated, armor vs armorless only shows through when you outclass the person. The armor reduction just serves as a way to pick on people easier.
> Now, Eliminate has always been a PVP niche, what i would like to see is this ability made useful in a PVE situation when there is no armor involved. Maybe some kind of flat damage bonus for PVE?
I do like the idea of eliminate having a flat damage bonus for the attack, it would help to make eliminate worth while on level and while hunting. The benefits don't necessarily have to be damage based though. What if eliminate caused your next attack to keep you in hiding, or lowered the RT of the next attack.
DEFOL
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/22/2013 03:00 AM CST
<< Are critters that don't have invisible armor?
No idea but if they did i would have hoped to see a lot more damage. I've literally been destroyed by goblin level critters when i had no armor - of course that's combined with an environment stun.
No idea but if they did i would have hoped to see a lot more damage. I've literally been destroyed by goblin level critters when i had no armor - of course that's combined with an environment stun.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/24/2013 09:31 PM CST
Having taken another look at this move in test tonight I've a few thoughts:
1, As it stands even with a hefty cooldown this move feels amazingly too powerful. Being able to remove both shield AND armor takes far too big a chunk out of someone far too fast. In an example tonight I asked a thief to use only Strike and Eliminate, and using a handful of JABS managed to take off almost 30% of my vit - fully buffed.
2, With the potential of making any follow on attack DFA without the inherent accuracy DFA penalty is a very awesome ability. I think Eliminate should be either Armor skip, or Shield skip, not entire skillset skip.
2a Changing Eliminate to skipping armor leaves it as an extremely peppy finisher combined with Backstab
2b Changing Eliminate to skipping shield gives the thief the ability to use any weapon as DFA, giving a healthy list of options.
Samsaren
1, As it stands even with a hefty cooldown this move feels amazingly too powerful. Being able to remove both shield AND armor takes far too big a chunk out of someone far too fast. In an example tonight I asked a thief to use only Strike and Eliminate, and using a handful of JABS managed to take off almost 30% of my vit - fully buffed.
2, With the potential of making any follow on attack DFA without the inherent accuracy DFA penalty is a very awesome ability. I think Eliminate should be either Armor skip, or Shield skip, not entire skillset skip.
2a Changing Eliminate to skipping armor leaves it as an extremely peppy finisher combined with Backstab
2b Changing Eliminate to skipping shield gives the thief the ability to use any weapon as DFA, giving a healthy list of options.
Samsaren
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/24/2013 11:12 PM CST
> Having taken another look at this move in test tonight I've a few thought
You only saw that big of a difference because you are in plate and likely outclassed, eliminate was created specifically to solve a problem with plate and barriers. If you actually rivaled yer opponent in skill, eliminate would not show a gigantic benefit in damage done.
You only saw that big of a difference because you are in plate and likely outclassed, eliminate was created specifically to solve a problem with plate and barriers. If you actually rivaled yer opponent in skill, eliminate would not show a gigantic benefit in damage done.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/24/2013 11:42 PM CST
Yup - you're right, I've no clue what I'm talking about. I get it, you want a win button. My bad.
Samsaren
* Attacking weakly, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You dodge, leaning to one side with no room to spare.
[You're off balance with opponent in good position.]
* With weak timing, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You dodge, just stepping out of harm's way.
[You're off balance with opponent in strong position.]
* Moving weakly, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You dodge, just stepping out of harm's way.
[You're off balance with opponent in excellent position.]
Insert Khri:
* Driving in with naturally fluid movements, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You attempt to dodge, moving directly into the blow.
The pokey thing lands a hard hit to your chest.
[You're bruised, slightly off balance with opponent in excellent position.]
>
* Moving with incredible power and control, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You fail to evade, taking the full blow.
The pokey thing lands a strong hit to your right leg.
[You're hurt, slightly off balance with opponent in excellent position.]
* Moving with incredible power and control, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You fail to dodge, taking the full blow.
The pokey thing lands a hard hit to your abdomen.
[You're battered, slightly off balance with opponent dominating.]
* Moving in with powerful grace, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You fail to evade, leaning wrong and blundering into the blow.
The pokey thing lands a strong hit that barely punctures the skin on the upper chest causing a slight welt.
[You're beat up, solidly balanced with opponent dominating.]
* Driving in like an unbeatable force, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You attempt to evade, failing miserably.
The pokey thing lands a heavy strike that pricks your back (Get your needle work out!), lightly stunning you.
[You're very beat up, very badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
Samsaren
* Attacking weakly, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You dodge, leaning to one side with no room to spare.
[You're off balance with opponent in good position.]
* With weak timing, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You dodge, just stepping out of harm's way.
[You're off balance with opponent in strong position.]
* Moving weakly, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You dodge, just stepping out of harm's way.
[You're off balance with opponent in excellent position.]
Insert Khri:
* Driving in with naturally fluid movements, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You attempt to dodge, moving directly into the blow.
The pokey thing lands a hard hit to your chest.
[You're bruised, slightly off balance with opponent in excellent position.]
>
* Moving with incredible power and control, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You fail to evade, taking the full blow.
The pokey thing lands a strong hit to your right leg.
[You're hurt, slightly off balance with opponent in excellent position.]
* Moving with incredible power and control, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You fail to dodge, taking the full blow.
The pokey thing lands a hard hit to your abdomen.
[You're battered, slightly off balance with opponent dominating.]
* Moving in with powerful grace, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You fail to evade, leaning wrong and blundering into the blow.
The pokey thing lands a strong hit that barely punctures the skin on the upper chest causing a slight welt.
[You're beat up, solidly balanced with opponent dominating.]
* Driving in like an unbeatable force, ThiefyXXX jabs a pokey thing at you. You attempt to evade, failing miserably.
The pokey thing lands a heavy strike that pricks your back (Get your needle work out!), lightly stunning you.
[You're very beat up, very badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
GORTEOUS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 12:11 AM CST
What's scary OP about eliminate is:
1) He didn't use called shots which shatter balance into a million pieces.
2) He did that with a kythe. Imagine someone jab-spamming called shots with a greatsword. Insta-doom.
These were my original arguments against abilities that act like DFA but do not damage like DFA. They are game breaking.
This includes maneuvers, which are also insanely overpowered. They take a lot more prep time, but still do godly amounts of damage.
I don't believe these kind of game-breaking abilities should exist.
If the stance change where you defaulted to 'best defense' came along with 3.1, these points would probably be somewhat moot. But as it stands, they are srs bizniss.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
1) He didn't use called shots which shatter balance into a million pieces.
2) He did that with a kythe. Imagine someone jab-spamming called shots with a greatsword. Insta-doom.
These were my original arguments against abilities that act like DFA but do not damage like DFA. They are game breaking.
This includes maneuvers, which are also insanely overpowered. They take a lot more prep time, but still do godly amounts of damage.
I don't believe these kind of game-breaking abilities should exist.
If the stance change where you defaulted to 'best defense' came along with 3.1, these points would probably be somewhat moot. But as it stands, they are srs bizniss.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 12:32 AM CST
If he hits you that hard samsaren, you are doing something wrong. For the same setup my hits on gorteous for draws generally never went over good. With that said, i don't think eliminate is even close to being "thiefly", it is focused specifically for jabbing tiny attacks at people in mass, not at all tiered for making one big attack with backstab. Reminds me of a combat rogue in WoW, which is the most lame class in all of online gaming.
I think the best ideal for eliminate would be one BIG attack that bypasses barriers and armor, or a sequence of formidable precision attacks that are not time based.
I think the best ideal for eliminate would be one BIG attack that bypasses barriers and armor, or a sequence of formidable precision attacks that are not time based.
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 01:02 AM CST
>I think the best ideal for eliminate would be one BIG attack that bypasses barriers and armor, or a sequence of formidable precision attacks that are not time based
Sounds like thief mischief to me!
Sounds like thief mischief to me!
DR-RICINUS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 06:55 AM CST
While I'm not going to truly defend the current incarnation of Eliminate, as it was the most worrisome of the new abilities I wrote, and the one I knew I'd have to keep the closest eye on for balance:
It only works with small edged weapons, and certainly not greatswords.
Right now, I could probably use more real world style testing to see how the ability fares.
For those using it that say it doesn't do enough, are you fighting an opponent that you can beat without it?
For those on the receiving end that say it does too much, can you still come back and win the fight?
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
It only works with small edged weapons, and certainly not greatswords.
Right now, I could probably use more real world style testing to see how the ability fares.
For those using it that say it doesn't do enough, are you fighting an opponent that you can beat without it?
For those on the receiving end that say it does too much, can you still come back and win the fight?
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
JARAGONA
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 06:56 AM CST
I knew when I read 'bah humbug' as your review, you were covering something up. From the log Samsaren posted, it's obvious that's a bit ridiculous, as it is completely bypassing an entire set of skills for multiple strikes.
As an aside, the one line of defense concept is also pretty detrimental to combat playability and should be reconsidered, anyway.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
As an aside, the one line of defense concept is also pretty detrimental to combat playability and should be reconsidered, anyway.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 10:40 AM CST
Heh. So 100% evading attacks, which means Samsaren outclasses the thief, at least defensively. To Very Beat up in 5 seconds.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
YAMCER
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 10:44 AM CST
<<I get it, you want a win button.>>
They didn't win, they got 4 hard to heavy hits, and a light stun.
I'm not seeing what is so overpowered. It went from missing to hits, but didn't kill you. It isn't like they went from miss, miss, miss, hit, hit, dead. Most likely it would get a few hits, than go back to missing again since it is such short duration with a considerable cool down.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
They didn't win, they got 4 hard to heavy hits, and a light stun.
I'm not seeing what is so overpowered. It went from missing to hits, but didn't kill you. It isn't like they went from miss, miss, miss, hit, hit, dead. Most likely it would get a few hits, than go back to missing again since it is such short duration with a considerable cool down.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 11:37 AM CST
>>Heh. So 100% evading attacks, which means Samsaren outclasses the thief, at least defensively. To Very Beat up in 5 seconds.
I could have sworn that "bob evades" doesn't always mean "bob does this just from evasion".
If it was a mix of shield/evasion before, it might still say "evades". So, if the shield is removed from the equation, that means a hit could happen. Toss in the fact that eliminate removes armor from consideration, the damage would be notably increased, too.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I could have sworn that "bob evades" doesn't always mean "bob does this just from evasion".
If it was a mix of shield/evasion before, it might still say "evades". So, if the shield is removed from the equation, that means a hit could happen. Toss in the fact that eliminate removes armor from consideration, the damage would be notably increased, too.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 11:48 AM CST
> I knew when I read 'bah humbug' as your review, you were covering something up. From the log Samsaren posted, it's obvious that's a bit ridiculous, as it is completely bypassing an entire set of skills for multiple strikes.
I said bah humbug because im tired of arguing about eliminate. Eliminate is gonna turn into a big tug-o-war because people are whiny, so my intent is to forget eliminate exists and focus on the other aspects of thief. Judging by Samsaren's log i doubt that thief was able to do much else to finish samsaren off, 30% vitality out of a paladins pool is not much. If both sides are equally set up, prepared, and not doing something stupid, then the extra damage from eliminate is not all that great.
> I could have sworn that "bob evades" doesn't always mean "bob does this just from evasion".
I should be burned alive, i actually agree with pureblade. Just because you dodge does not mean evasion alone is soaking up anything, that is a theory of combat 2.0. evasion + shield can actually make it appear like your evasion is higher than it truely is.
I said bah humbug because im tired of arguing about eliminate. Eliminate is gonna turn into a big tug-o-war because people are whiny, so my intent is to forget eliminate exists and focus on the other aspects of thief. Judging by Samsaren's log i doubt that thief was able to do much else to finish samsaren off, 30% vitality out of a paladins pool is not much. If both sides are equally set up, prepared, and not doing something stupid, then the extra damage from eliminate is not all that great.
> I could have sworn that "bob evades" doesn't always mean "bob does this just from evasion".
I should be burned alive, i actually agree with pureblade. Just because you dodge does not mean evasion alone is soaking up anything, that is a theory of combat 2.0. evasion + shield can actually make it appear like your evasion is higher than it truely is.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 11:50 AM CST
>>I could have sworn that "bob evades" doesn't always mean "bob does this just from evasion".
Yeah I think you are right - it used to be evasion is contested first than parry/shield but I think it changed. Messaging may reflect what defense is doing the highest amount of protecting now..?
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Yeah I think you are right - it used to be evasion is contested first than parry/shield but I think it changed. Messaging may reflect what defense is doing the highest amount of protecting now..?
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
TIGARCLAW
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 01:51 PM CST
>>These were my original arguments against abilities that act like DFA but do not damage like DFA. They are game breaking.
Spoken like a PvPr. keep in mind that 75% of us dont PvP or care about it in Prime. Most of us care about being able to hunt X creature being a thief which means skulking in the shadows using light armor and small weapons.
Spoken like a PvPr. keep in mind that 75% of us dont PvP or care about it in Prime. Most of us care about being able to hunt X creature being a thief which means skulking in the shadows using light armor and small weapons.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 05:35 PM CST
Something to consider from the log I posted - Thief was using Strike before to boost melee - was unable to land hits at all. Using backstab, was landing average of good hits (lighter with maf, heavier once I lost some vit). After Khri Eliminates hits I was at 55% vit, no balance, crap position, and the thief continued to land light hits (where I was avoiding all damage at full vit/normal balance). Could I potentially have pulled out of this position? Maybe, but doubtful. Between the then constant landing of hits to continue to chip away at vit and compound wounds for constant stuns, as well as punishing my position and balance via the jab attack for half the RT of my LE I was pretty much screwed.
While I hate to agree off the cuff with Gort I'm finding in the 3.x era that anything that completely removes a defense (Paladin max success shatter, BStab, Eliminate, DFA) is problematic at best as we're now in a 2 defense or die paradigm. Skill debuffs with judicious caps of power (barb roars, Malediction, non-paladin-max-success shatter) are peppy without being overwhelming as you still have SOMETHING in the way. Being able to turn an entire defense off bugs me. And, before someone starts typing in all caps something about seeing the first hit punch through my shield and swap to a parry stance, its the age of genie and triggers, giving someone a free shot with whatever ranged ability they wanna use because I swapped stances isn't viable, and is another problem entirely.
Samsaren
While I hate to agree off the cuff with Gort I'm finding in the 3.x era that anything that completely removes a defense (Paladin max success shatter, BStab, Eliminate, DFA) is problematic at best as we're now in a 2 defense or die paradigm. Skill debuffs with judicious caps of power (barb roars, Malediction, non-paladin-max-success shatter) are peppy without being overwhelming as you still have SOMETHING in the way. Being able to turn an entire defense off bugs me. And, before someone starts typing in all caps something about seeing the first hit punch through my shield and swap to a parry stance, its the age of genie and triggers, giving someone a free shot with whatever ranged ability they wanna use because I swapped stances isn't viable, and is another problem entirely.
Samsaren
TIGARCLAW
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 05:53 PM CST
>>While I hate to agree off the cuff with Gort I'm finding in the 3.x era that anything that completely removes a defense (Paladin max success shatter, BStab, Eliminate, DFA) is problematic at best as we're now in a 2 defense or die paradigm.
Folks this is not a PvP game. There is less than 25% of ppl in Prime who PvP at all and less than 10% who do it on regular bases. I really wish we would not base every ability that is out on how it stacks up in PvP. In fact I wish we would have PvE only abilities and/or some PvP only abilities like most other games do.
Lets not base every decision on an ability and its validity on how it does in PvP.
A too few ppl PvP for it to be THE measuring stick
B too many variables in PvP there is no such thing as Equal anything in PvP in DR. So many variables like quality of armor, hinderance, burden at the time, spells up, rank differences, etc.
Bottom line; for PvE Small edge needs help against heavily armored critters. For a thief to be thief unels they get a boost of some srot that can handle that thiefs end up being pigeonholed hunting 4 legged beasts (which are in the wilds so we get NO urban bonus) or look for the few and far inbetween lightly armored 2 legged huntables.
Folks this is not a PvP game. There is less than 25% of ppl in Prime who PvP at all and less than 10% who do it on regular bases. I really wish we would not base every ability that is out on how it stacks up in PvP. In fact I wish we would have PvE only abilities and/or some PvP only abilities like most other games do.
Lets not base every decision on an ability and its validity on how it does in PvP.
A too few ppl PvP for it to be THE measuring stick
B too many variables in PvP there is no such thing as Equal anything in PvP in DR. So many variables like quality of armor, hinderance, burden at the time, spells up, rank differences, etc.
Bottom line; for PvE Small edge needs help against heavily armored critters. For a thief to be thief unels they get a boost of some srot that can handle that thiefs end up being pigeonholed hunting 4 legged beasts (which are in the wilds so we get NO urban bonus) or look for the few and far inbetween lightly armored 2 legged huntables.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 06:05 PM CST
> Spoken like a PvPr. keep in mind that 75% of us dont PvP or care about it in Prime. Most of us care about being able to hunt X creature being a thief which means skulking in the shadows using light armor and small weapons.
Don't be so naive, people don't hunt X creature just to hunt, everyone has a reason they hunt. A majority of the population is also founded on the love of great PvP DR has always had, thus they try very hard to balance it. Pansies like you only make up 1% of the population of DR, and thank the gods for that, if 75% of DR was like you i would end up killing people in a murderous rage every other day. 99% of DR consider PvP a plausible option for fun and entertainment, some more than others. A great chunk of DR even consider PvP to be recreation, motivation, and a way of life, These are the people i am proud to walk Elanthia with.
Don't be so naive, people don't hunt X creature just to hunt, everyone has a reason they hunt. A majority of the population is also founded on the love of great PvP DR has always had, thus they try very hard to balance it. Pansies like you only make up 1% of the population of DR, and thank the gods for that, if 75% of DR was like you i would end up killing people in a murderous rage every other day. 99% of DR consider PvP a plausible option for fun and entertainment, some more than others. A great chunk of DR even consider PvP to be recreation, motivation, and a way of life, These are the people i am proud to walk Elanthia with.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 06:08 PM CST
>>Bottom line; for PvE Small edge needs help against heavily armored critters. For a thief to be thief unels they get a boost of some srot that can handle that thiefs end up being pigeonholed hunting 4 legged beasts (which are in the wilds so we get NO urban bonus) or look for the few and far inbetween lightly armored 2 legged huntables.
No, you don't. You can hunt all the way up the ladder with all weapons without buffs. Trying to shout ermegurd I needs it hunt xyz is silly at best.
Samsaren
No, you don't. You can hunt all the way up the ladder with all weapons without buffs. Trying to shout ermegurd I needs it hunt xyz is silly at best.
Samsaren
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 06:18 PM CST
> While I hate to agree off the cuff with Gort I'm finding in the 3.x era that anything that completely removes a defense (Paladin max success shatter, BStab, Eliminate, DFA) is problematic at best as we're now in a 2 defense or die paradigm. Skill debuffs with judicious caps of power (barb roars, Malediction, non-paladin-max-success shatter) are peppy without being overwhelming as you still have SOMETHING in the way. Being able to turn an entire defense off bugs me. And, before someone starts typing in all caps something about seeing the first hit punch through my shield and swap to a parry stance, its the age of genie and triggers, giving someone a free shot with whatever ranged ability they wanna use because I swapped stances isn't viable, and is another problem entirely.
As i said, you just see the biggest difference because you are in plate, Samsaren. For accurate testing, you are going to have to bring a non-paladin into the testing so you can see what im talking about. Other classes don't see even half the difference, paladins are the only class that can even WEAR plate effectively in current DR, so eliminate effects you the greatest. Deal with it, armors and barriers are far too effective in current DR, that is why abilities like eliminate are being released.
As i said, you just see the biggest difference because you are in plate, Samsaren. For accurate testing, you are going to have to bring a non-paladin into the testing so you can see what im talking about. Other classes don't see even half the difference, paladins are the only class that can even WEAR plate effectively in current DR, so eliminate effects you the greatest. Deal with it, armors and barriers are far too effective in current DR, that is why abilities like eliminate are being released.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 06:32 PM CST
>>A great chunk of DR even consider PvP to be recreation, motivation, and a way of life, These are the people i am proud to walk Elanthia with.
Happy for you sir. For the majority of us and yes we are in the majority we dont care for PvP. Simu did a study just last year on that ask the GMs what the numbers say about PvP and DR Prime.
Look let me put it the another way. You are a Paladin Khri to you = edge against you in PvP. To a thief Khri are what the guild is about. When a lot of the khri are bonusing the Small Edged weapons and ONLY those or things like Backstab/Ambuish which we can only do with small weapons they need to be effective in order for the guild to be fun/enjoyable. I'd love to backstab with a Greatsword but I cant, cant use a Mattock for it either, nor many other weapons with better OMPH.
Give you an example currently in prime not on Test I am using a Kertig ME stabbing in the eye with it. Overpowering my opponents by a fair margin Krhis. Talking about creatures not PvP. This is what I get and keep in mind I get a killshot every umm... 30 hits mebe:
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to dodge.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike to the celpeze's left eye, lightly stunning it.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to evade.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike to the celpeze'
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to evade.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike to the celpeze's left eye.
[You're nimbly balanced with opponent in better position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to dodge.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit that fills the left eye with blood from a deep cut across the socket, knocking it completely senseless.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to evade.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit that rubs away the eyebrow and surrounding tissue above the left eye.
[You're nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to evade.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit that rubs away the eyebrow and surrounding tissue above the left eye.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit that causes the left eye to swim with tears with a bloodless nick across the pupil, severely stunning it.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike that causes the left eye to swim with tears with a bloodless bop across the pupil.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to dodge.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike that causes the left eye to swim with tears with a bloodless bop across the pupil, lightly stunning it.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit to the celpeze's left eye.
[You're nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike to the celpeze's left eye, lightly stunning it.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
Now that was the SAME celp. It did not die. Takes about 20 to 30 shots and than it bleeds to death more offten than not.
Weapon:
You are certain that it could do:
very heavy (10/26) puncture damage
somewhat fair (4/26) slice damage
low (3/26) impact damage
no fire damage
no cold damage
no electric damage
The pasabas is dismally designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the pasabas is extremely well balanced and is dismally (2/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the pasabas is unusually resilient to damage (16/18), and has some minor scratches (60-69%).
The pasabas is made with metal.
You are certain that the pasabas weighs exactly 30 stones.
You are certain that the pasabas is worth exactly 203280 Lirums.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Nothing wrong with the weapon. Stats:
Strength : 41 Reflex : 98
Agility : 100 Charisma : 40
Discipline : 75 Wisdom : 75
Intelligence : 51 Stamina : 52
Agility is the one that matters for Backstab/Ambuish. Nothing wrong with the stats.
Backstab: 705 76.24% clear (0/34)
Yeah I can barely move my Backstabbing doing that all day. That is how high I am above the thing I'm hunting. Yet I cant kill it using the thief "Signature" attack with Khri Spar up (focus, prowess, steady, strike). If you see nothing wrong with the above and dont think Thiefs need help than your only interest here is "I dont want to lose to a thief in PvP" and really should be taken to the PvP folders not Thief abilities folders please.
Happy for you sir. For the majority of us and yes we are in the majority we dont care for PvP. Simu did a study just last year on that ask the GMs what the numbers say about PvP and DR Prime.
Look let me put it the another way. You are a Paladin Khri to you = edge against you in PvP. To a thief Khri are what the guild is about. When a lot of the khri are bonusing the Small Edged weapons and ONLY those or things like Backstab/Ambuish which we can only do with small weapons they need to be effective in order for the guild to be fun/enjoyable. I'd love to backstab with a Greatsword but I cant, cant use a Mattock for it either, nor many other weapons with better OMPH.
Give you an example currently in prime not on Test I am using a Kertig ME stabbing in the eye with it. Overpowering my opponents by a fair margin Krhis. Talking about creatures not PvP. This is what I get and keep in mind I get a killshot every umm... 30 hits mebe:
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to dodge.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike to the celpeze's left eye, lightly stunning it.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to evade.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike to the celpeze'
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to evade.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike to the celpeze's left eye.
[You're nimbly balanced with opponent in better position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to dodge.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit that fills the left eye with blood from a deep cut across the socket, knocking it completely senseless.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to evade.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit that rubs away the eyebrow and surrounding tissue above the left eye.
[You're nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to evade.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit that rubs away the eyebrow and surrounding tissue above the left eye.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit that causes the left eye to swim with tears with a bloodless nick across the pupil, severely stunning it.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike that causes the left eye to swim with tears with a bloodless bop across the pupil.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze attempts to dodge.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike that causes the left eye to swim with tears with a bloodless bop across the pupil, lightly stunning it.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge.
The pasabas lands a solid (5/23) hit to the celpeze's left eye.
[You're nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
You masterfully position yourself to strike at the asaren celpeze's left eye.
You leap out of hiding and ambush an asaren celpeze, completely surprising it.
< You thrust a kertig pasabas at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge.
The pasabas lands a good (4/23) strike to the celpeze's left eye, lightly stunning it.
[You're nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
Now that was the SAME celp. It did not die. Takes about 20 to 30 shots and than it bleeds to death more offten than not.
Weapon:
You are certain that it could do:
very heavy (10/26) puncture damage
somewhat fair (4/26) slice damage
low (3/26) impact damage
no fire damage
no cold damage
no electric damage
The pasabas is dismally designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the pasabas is extremely well balanced and is dismally (2/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the pasabas is unusually resilient to damage (16/18), and has some minor scratches (60-69%).
The pasabas is made with metal.
You are certain that the pasabas weighs exactly 30 stones.
You are certain that the pasabas is worth exactly 203280 Lirums.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Nothing wrong with the weapon. Stats:
Strength : 41 Reflex : 98
Agility : 100 Charisma : 40
Discipline : 75 Wisdom : 75
Intelligence : 51 Stamina : 52
Agility is the one that matters for Backstab/Ambuish. Nothing wrong with the stats.
Backstab: 705 76.24% clear (0/34)
Yeah I can barely move my Backstabbing doing that all day. That is how high I am above the thing I'm hunting. Yet I cant kill it using the thief "Signature" attack with Khri Spar up (focus, prowess, steady, strike). If you see nothing wrong with the above and dont think Thiefs need help than your only interest here is "I dont want to lose to a thief in PvP" and really should be taken to the PvP folders not Thief abilities folders please.
JARAGONA
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 06:33 PM CST
But you are going from missing completely to hitting pretty hard, not hitting with grazing blows to hitting pretty hard. The issue is eliminating (get it!!) an entire skillset. The single line of defense penalty is too harsh in the current system.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
ASHAMAN1
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 07:06 PM CST
>>Yeah I can barely move my Backstabbing doing that all day. That is how high I am above the thing I'm hunting. Yet I cant kill it using the thief "Signature" attack with Khri Spar up (focus, prowess, steady, strike). If you see nothing wrong with the above and dont think Thiefs need help than your only interest here is "I dont want to lose to a thief in PvP" and really should be taken to the PvP folders not Thief abilities folders please.
Sooo, you're taking a critter you overpower (so rank buffs to weapons do nothing), taking on a massive penalty for attacking the eye, a non-critical body part, and using that as a way to state SE needs more damage? Riiiiight. I too use SE, at level it takes 8-10 hits to kill a Resus, using SB, 8-10, using 2HE 6-8. Seems fine to me.
Raikage:
I get it, you can't one shot heavy armors and it bugs you. Again, I weep. Guys - Khri Eliminate being able to turn off an entire skillset is insanely OP. There's no two ways about it. Being able to get a handful of attacks only makes it worse. The argument of my wearing plate makes it seem worse wouldn't matter overmuch as the thief went from NOT CONNECTING to taking off 45% of my vit, fulled buffed (stam booster included 96 stam) is beyond making sense. If the thief had simply typed JAB CHEST x 6 dealing those kind of hits odds are my chest would have popped. If thats your idea of balanced I'm done talking to you.
Samsaren
Sooo, you're taking a critter you overpower (so rank buffs to weapons do nothing), taking on a massive penalty for attacking the eye, a non-critical body part, and using that as a way to state SE needs more damage? Riiiiight. I too use SE, at level it takes 8-10 hits to kill a Resus, using SB, 8-10, using 2HE 6-8. Seems fine to me.
Raikage:
I get it, you can't one shot heavy armors and it bugs you. Again, I weep. Guys - Khri Eliminate being able to turn off an entire skillset is insanely OP. There's no two ways about it. Being able to get a handful of attacks only makes it worse. The argument of my wearing plate makes it seem worse wouldn't matter overmuch as the thief went from NOT CONNECTING to taking off 45% of my vit, fulled buffed (stam booster included 96 stam) is beyond making sense. If the thief had simply typed JAB CHEST x 6 dealing those kind of hits odds are my chest would have popped. If thats your idea of balanced I'm done talking to you.
Samsaren
TIGARCLAW
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 07:12 PM CST
>>I get it, you can't one shot heavy armors and it bugs you. Again, I weep. Guys - Khri Eliminate being able to turn off an entire skillset is insanely OP.
Strictly PvP speaking you are right. Eliminate is really a PvP only skill in the end it only lasts a few seconds and has what a 10 min CD timer on reuse? So yeah it is.
I want to see a PvE only ability that gives me a tad of OMPH as a thief using my Signature ability and Signature weapon at least when I have enough ranks for them to mean something.
Strictly PvP speaking you are right. Eliminate is really a PvP only skill in the end it only lasts a few seconds and has what a 10 min CD timer on reuse? So yeah it is.
I want to see a PvE only ability that gives me a tad of OMPH as a thief using my Signature ability and Signature weapon at least when I have enough ranks for them to mean something.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 07:20 PM CST
Sam couple of things to keep in mind. That is a 4 legger. I cant Bacstab it. I have to Ambuish it. I cant just attack from hidding as it defaults to "brawling" not weapon in hand. I have to either Jab, thrust, feint a body part to use the weapon, Thrust is the best of the 3 for damage. I do the eye because the harder to hit the body part is the better it trains. If I just hit chest or other easier to hit places that are move vital. It will die faster but I learn next to zero from it and if I hit areas that train it will die... eventualy to a thousand paper cuts. Anything I can train Backstab "at level" wont train nearly as well as any weapon i can train from simply attacking outright AND it will rip me to shreds.
If I could I'd not train Backstab. Its a guild Signature skill, 3.1 is supposed to bring back "useful" to Backstab as it should be.
If I could I'd not train Backstab. Its a guild Signature skill, 3.1 is supposed to bring back "useful" to Backstab as it should be.
MOCKERJB
DR-RICINUS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 11:41 PM CST
>>3.1 is supposed to bring back "useful" to Backstab as it should be.
I don't know of anything in particular that was mentioned about 3.1 and backstab.
As far as some of the rest of this discussion - I'm just not understanding some of it. On one hand we have a paladin fighting a thief, are they what they consider to be 'at level' with each other? If they are, then why can the thief do no damage to the paladin prior to using Eliminate? And if it allows the thief to suddenly get some hits in, then why is that a bad thing for balance?
So, let's assume the thief is considered a bigger threat than the paladin, since I really don't know. In this case then... why can the thief do no damage to the paladin prior to using Eliminate? And if it allows the thief to suddenly get some hits in, then why is that a bad thing for balance?
Ok, so maybe the paladin is a bigger threat than the thief. Why is the paladin just standing there getting hit instead of actively fighting? In my opinion, this is a fair question to ask regardless of standing, since testing vs an ability using a worse case scenario (standing around, fully buffed perhaps, but afk) is not the kind of info I would want to use to make any changes.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
I don't know of anything in particular that was mentioned about 3.1 and backstab.
As far as some of the rest of this discussion - I'm just not understanding some of it. On one hand we have a paladin fighting a thief, are they what they consider to be 'at level' with each other? If they are, then why can the thief do no damage to the paladin prior to using Eliminate? And if it allows the thief to suddenly get some hits in, then why is that a bad thing for balance?
So, let's assume the thief is considered a bigger threat than the paladin, since I really don't know. In this case then... why can the thief do no damage to the paladin prior to using Eliminate? And if it allows the thief to suddenly get some hits in, then why is that a bad thing for balance?
Ok, so maybe the paladin is a bigger threat than the thief. Why is the paladin just standing there getting hit instead of actively fighting? In my opinion, this is a fair question to ask regardless of standing, since testing vs an ability using a worse case scenario (standing around, fully buffed perhaps, but afk) is not the kind of info I would want to use to make any changes.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 11:48 PM CST
<While I hate to agree off the cuff with Gort I'm finding in the 3.x era that anything that completely removes a defense (Paladin max success shatter, BStab, Eliminate, DFA) is problematic at best as we're now in a 2 defense or die paradigm.
Agree. Some of this stuff gets pretty crazy, especially with folks who use light armors. Take the same person suffering the same type of effects and disable them first and it gets REALLY crazy, especially when the disablers stack.
<Folks this is not a PvP game. There is less than 25% of ppl in Prime who PvP at all and less than 10% who do it on regular bases. I really wish we would not base every ability that is out on how it stacks up in PvP. In fact I wish we would have PvE only abilities and/or some PvP only abilities like most other games do.
I doubt those numbers are really accurate, but say 40% of the DR population does PVP and 60% does not. Now, make abilities that are designed for PVE that severely break game mechanics and allow some guilds to flourish while others falter. There goes 30% or more of DR that don't want to deal with that type of crap. That's why folks do make sure PVP is balanced and why pretty much every game has just went to the point of giving everybody the same type of attacks in different styles.
BTW i'm not saying that some of these abilities are OMG game breaking. Hell, honestly DFA used to be pretty bad, but with current TM mechanics its from what I've seen, not in the same ballpark. Also, I like guild differentiation and think maybe things just need to be worked out if they are out of line to a point that is manageable.
Agree. Some of this stuff gets pretty crazy, especially with folks who use light armors. Take the same person suffering the same type of effects and disable them first and it gets REALLY crazy, especially when the disablers stack.
<Folks this is not a PvP game. There is less than 25% of ppl in Prime who PvP at all and less than 10% who do it on regular bases. I really wish we would not base every ability that is out on how it stacks up in PvP. In fact I wish we would have PvE only abilities and/or some PvP only abilities like most other games do.
I doubt those numbers are really accurate, but say 40% of the DR population does PVP and 60% does not. Now, make abilities that are designed for PVE that severely break game mechanics and allow some guilds to flourish while others falter. There goes 30% or more of DR that don't want to deal with that type of crap. That's why folks do make sure PVP is balanced and why pretty much every game has just went to the point of giving everybody the same type of attacks in different styles.
BTW i'm not saying that some of these abilities are OMG game breaking. Hell, honestly DFA used to be pretty bad, but with current TM mechanics its from what I've seen, not in the same ballpark. Also, I like guild differentiation and think maybe things just need to be worked out if they are out of line to a point that is manageable.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/25/2013 11:53 PM CST
* A post was hidden *
Please remember that this is a folder for testing notes and discussion. We can talk about abilities all day long here, but if you want to attack each other, take it to conflicts.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Please remember that this is a folder for testing notes and discussion. We can talk about abilities all day long here, but if you want to attack each other, take it to conflicts.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 12:05 AM CST
<Ok, so maybe the paladin is a bigger threat than the thief. Why is the paladin just standing there getting hit instead of actively fighting? In my opinion, this is a fair question to ask regardless of standing, since testing vs an ability using a worse case scenario (standing around, fully buffed perhaps, but afk) is not the kind of info I would want to use to make any changes.
What if the thief has no business really hitting the paladin, but the thief does damage due to the khri in question. Also, what if the thief with broken inviso, and ambushing that has seemed pretty damn skewed in favor of the thief, renders the paladin prone and stunned before activating said ability. I've done some limited testing just with ambushes and the like that has had me wondering why i'm even getting hit by them, considering how I can see the person easily and they have a bit less relevant skills vs my defenses and perception. I'd have to do some recent hard testing to get any really concrete data, but I think something like this scenario is what folks are more worried about.
What if the thief has no business really hitting the paladin, but the thief does damage due to the khri in question. Also, what if the thief with broken inviso, and ambushing that has seemed pretty damn skewed in favor of the thief, renders the paladin prone and stunned before activating said ability. I've done some limited testing just with ambushes and the like that has had me wondering why i'm even getting hit by them, considering how I can see the person easily and they have a bit less relevant skills vs my defenses and perception. I'd have to do some recent hard testing to get any really concrete data, but I think something like this scenario is what folks are more worried about.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 12:26 AM CST
>>but I think something like this scenario is what folks are more worried about.
I'm worried about the possibility as well, so please don't misunderstand me or think I'm making a defense of something that may in fact need tweaking. I absolutely cannot actively PvP with myself. Nor would I be as good at handling a thief or a paladin player who is used to PvPing with those guilds even if I managed the feat. What I want from any ability set is at least the belief that two equally trained, and skilled, opponents square off that there is the opportunity for victory for both of them. The only way I get to that point is with people doing actual real combat tests, because I already know the abilities do what they're supposed to do.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
I'm worried about the possibility as well, so please don't misunderstand me or think I'm making a defense of something that may in fact need tweaking. I absolutely cannot actively PvP with myself. Nor would I be as good at handling a thief or a paladin player who is used to PvPing with those guilds even if I managed the feat. What I want from any ability set is at least the belief that two equally trained, and skilled, opponents square off that there is the opportunity for victory for both of them. The only way I get to that point is with people doing actual real combat tests, because I already know the abilities do what they're supposed to do.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
JARAGONA
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 06:04 AM CST
It's akin to how the GMs don't want us hunting creature X because it doesn't have a shield, so we mow it down with a ranged weapon to farm plats, gems, skins and boxes quickly, taking advantage of an obvious game mechanic weakness. So the idea was brought up to (eventually) give it some form of inherent "shield" to eliminate that issue. Abilities like this cause melee/pole weapons to act like that mechanic, causing a major disadvantage. If two guys are completely equal, skillwise, but guy A's guild has eliminate, and he gets off 6 hits, and causes a serious stun, there is a very good chance that's all he needs to finish off guy B very quickly afterward. Personally, I hate how the combat system is set up for multiple lines of defense, because it causes every guild to -have- to use the paladin guild's best skill (shield) to stand a real chance in PvP. Remove that and now the paladin guild is forced to survive off their worst skill (evasion). Shield, parry and evasion should all be viable options to defend on their own, in my opinion. The survival guilds ought to be able to flourish with evasion, barbarians with parry, and paladins with shield. Anyone not primary should do well if they are secondary in any of these.
Also, 6 seconds of DFA per 10 minutes is actually a big deal in PvP. By the time guy B is back up and ready to go at it again, it's very likely 10 minutes is over. And we all know how it works in DR. People love using the same tactics over and over to win, especially ones that take advantage of poor mechanics. The only way to make stuff like this fair would be to give every single guild the identical ability with some other fancy label slapped on it, even if it wouldn't be a very good idea to do so. Disclaimer: I do train a thief daily who is a couple ranks from 150th. I still think stuff like this is not good for the game.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Also, 6 seconds of DFA per 10 minutes is actually a big deal in PvP. By the time guy B is back up and ready to go at it again, it's very likely 10 minutes is over. And we all know how it works in DR. People love using the same tactics over and over to win, especially ones that take advantage of poor mechanics. The only way to make stuff like this fair would be to give every single guild the identical ability with some other fancy label slapped on it, even if it wouldn't be a very good idea to do so. Disclaimer: I do train a thief daily who is a couple ranks from 150th. I still think stuff like this is not good for the game.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 11:58 AM CST
> Shield, parry and evasion should all be viable options to defend on their own, in my opinion. The survival guilds ought to be able to flourish with evasion, barbarians with parry, and paladins with shield. Anyone not primary should do well if they are secondary in any of these.
I fully agree with this. Forcing people to use shield ruined many fun aspects of DR
I fully agree with this. Forcing people to use shield ruined many fun aspects of DR
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 12:46 PM CST
>>Forcing people to use shield ruined many fun aspects of DR
The main issue is that players see any weakness as being forced to address that weakness.
You're not forced to use shield. You just need to know you're not going to defend optimally against missile weapons. And, because you're not going to be able to defend against them optimally, people conclude that they're forced to use shields.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The main issue is that players see any weakness as being forced to address that weakness.
You're not forced to use shield. You just need to know you're not going to defend optimally against missile weapons. And, because you're not going to be able to defend against them optimally, people conclude that they're forced to use shields.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
MOCKERJB
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 02:33 PM CST
Let's not confuse DFA alone with "DFA and Ignores Armor." There's a monster huge world of difference between those two, and it's hard for me to conceptualize the implementation of the latter in any way that is not overpowered. It should be a good single lead in strike. Frankly, what's the point of backstab if there's an ability that's even better and you don't even have the main challenge of backstab (actually being hidden and approaching, and passing the backstab check).
Ricinus, from a PvP perspective, anything that bypasses skill-checks entirely is inherently suspect. Backstab always has had an excuse for ignoring shield and getting a damage multiplier because it's tough to pull off (and it has a skill-check on the front-side anyway). Burn has had its damage and accuracy nerfed. Inviso has been through a range of nerfs and adjustments over the years (and people clamor for more still). For my part, I think it's important, when designing an ability like khri eliminate or, for example, soul attrition, to think about the Defender's options ASSUMING that the Attacker has enough OF to hit.
So, for example, I would ask: if I assume the attacker can hit with his/her offensive choice and this developed-ability, what defensive options will the defender have?
If the only answer for the Defender is "kill the attacker faster," then the ability is probably too much. DFA is particularly susceptible to this problem because it's completely unfeasible for a defender to ever have a single defense trained high enough to "avoid" an at-level attack. Thus, DFA *will hit* at level; you can't train a defense to mitigate that. Versus backstab, the answer justifying its power has always been "well, you can train perception." That's fair. But a DFA that bypasses armor, is usable for repeated attacks, and can be used with no limiting environmental factor (i.e., hidden etc)? The only way it could get meaner is if it followed the Defender and killed them after they escaped the room.
I kid, mostly, but maybe the general point is helpful.
<<On one hand we have a paladin fighting a thief, are they what they consider to be 'at level' with each other? If they are, then why can the thief do no damage to the paladin prior to using Eliminate? And if it allows the thief to suddenly get some hits in, then why is that a bad thing for balance?>>
There's a middle ground between "thief can't hurt paladin" and "thief bypasses the paladin's two major defenses without a skillcheck."
Ricinus, from a PvP perspective, anything that bypasses skill-checks entirely is inherently suspect. Backstab always has had an excuse for ignoring shield and getting a damage multiplier because it's tough to pull off (and it has a skill-check on the front-side anyway). Burn has had its damage and accuracy nerfed. Inviso has been through a range of nerfs and adjustments over the years (and people clamor for more still). For my part, I think it's important, when designing an ability like khri eliminate or, for example, soul attrition, to think about the Defender's options ASSUMING that the Attacker has enough OF to hit.
So, for example, I would ask: if I assume the attacker can hit with his/her offensive choice and this developed-ability, what defensive options will the defender have?
If the only answer for the Defender is "kill the attacker faster," then the ability is probably too much. DFA is particularly susceptible to this problem because it's completely unfeasible for a defender to ever have a single defense trained high enough to "avoid" an at-level attack. Thus, DFA *will hit* at level; you can't train a defense to mitigate that. Versus backstab, the answer justifying its power has always been "well, you can train perception." That's fair. But a DFA that bypasses armor, is usable for repeated attacks, and can be used with no limiting environmental factor (i.e., hidden etc)? The only way it could get meaner is if it followed the Defender and killed them after they escaped the room.
I kid, mostly, but maybe the general point is helpful.
<<On one hand we have a paladin fighting a thief, are they what they consider to be 'at level' with each other? If they are, then why can the thief do no damage to the paladin prior to using Eliminate? And if it allows the thief to suddenly get some hits in, then why is that a bad thing for balance?>>
There's a middle ground between "thief can't hurt paladin" and "thief bypasses the paladin's two major defenses without a skillcheck."
DR-RICINUS
Re: Khri Eliminate
12/26/2013 02:45 PM CST
>>Backstab always has had an excuse for ignoring shield and getting a damage multiplier because it's tough to pull off (and it has a skill-check on the front-side anyway)
So does Eliminate. There's an SvS contest that can be won or lost. Following that, the only attacks that then skip shield and armor have to come from the person who successfully applied the Eliminate effect, and have to be from a SE type weapon. I've heard plenty of arguments for and against what it does. What I'm looking for now is actual real world style testing.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
So does Eliminate. There's an SvS contest that can be won or lost. Following that, the only attacks that then skip shield and armor have to come from the person who successfully applied the Eliminate effect, and have to be from a SE type weapon. I've heard plenty of arguments for and against what it does. What I'm looking for now is actual real world style testing.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
