Hello Necromancers,
I have made some updates to the zombie and construct.
1. The zombie can no longer be capped with ~1300 TM. This means that a Necromancer with 1300 TM can no longer summon a level 250 zombie with 2000 ranks in every skill. Before you panic, however, Socharis did find a bug/weirdness with how creatures with shields and weapons were being affected by DFA spells. Essentially, they were only being allowed to use 60% of their evasion skill against DFA. This could be especially nasty versus holy DFA spells. This has been fixed, so that zombies/creatures are treated more like players against DFA. This means you should see a marked improvement in zombie survivability versus DFA spells.
2. The construct is no longer capped at level 140. Its level is now derived very similarly to that of the zombie, so it should be much more useful to you guys on the high end who were running into the level cap.
3. Zombie and construct defense skills are now modified by the integrity of the spell. More integrity = more defenses. Potency and TM skill determine the overall level, as they did in the past.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
DR-MELETE
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/09/2014 09:15 PM CST
Interesting and neat! One question; if TM and potency are affecting level and skills, and increasing integrity = more defense, will/could increasing integrity at the cost of potency reduce the level/skills more than what is offset by the increase of defenses? Assuming we're willing to sacrifice duration, how should we be casting CFB to optimize the zombies capabilities, with respect to integrity/potency?
ASHAMAN1
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/09/2014 09:30 PM CST
Melete - popped in briefly with Zerreck to look at the construct.
Looks Awesome. Pretty much exactly what I think it should be power wise.
Samsaren
Looks Awesome. Pretty much exactly what I think it should be power wise.
Samsaren
DRFREAK
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/09/2014 09:32 PM CST
Melete,
I have fallen for you, Let me count the ways.
Construct is awesome. I will get a group together to test cleric hax on the Zombie/construct. But you have my faith. Stuns and everything else landing well.
-Zerreck
DR-MELETE
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/09/2014 10:04 PM CST
>>Assuming we're willing to sacrifice duration, how should we be casting CFB to optimize the zombies capabilities, with respect to integrity/potency?
Mainly we just wanted to give ya'll another axis by which to modify/customize your summons. The interaction will probably vary a lot depending on where in the level spectrum you are. Just test it and see how you feel about it, if it turns out to not make sense, we can easily scrap it or change it.
One unrelated caveat -- the pet system rewrite is still going to be a thing (this is where Risen will come in). So all of this will likely be shaken up significantly once we get to that point. These changes are meant to get things into a reasonable state while the pet system is pending. Right now the zombie is set up as the strongest Necro summon, but when the risen comes along the balance of strengths will probably shift around. No timeline -- I'm pretty much totally uninvolved in that stuff. :]
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
Mainly we just wanted to give ya'll another axis by which to modify/customize your summons. The interaction will probably vary a lot depending on where in the level spectrum you are. Just test it and see how you feel about it, if it turns out to not make sense, we can easily scrap it or change it.
One unrelated caveat -- the pet system rewrite is still going to be a thing (this is where Risen will come in). So all of this will likely be shaken up significantly once we get to that point. These changes are meant to get things into a reasonable state while the pet system is pending. Right now the zombie is set up as the strongest Necro summon, but when the risen comes along the balance of strengths will probably shift around. No timeline -- I'm pretty much totally uninvolved in that stuff. :]
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
GORTEOUS
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/09/2014 10:28 PM CST
>> Essentially, they were only being allowed to use 60% of their evasion skill against DFA.
From what I seen in certain situations, this makes a lot of sense. Glad it was un-capped.
>> 1. The zombie can no longer be capped with ~1300 TM. This means that a Necromancer with 1300 TM can no longer summon a level 250 zombie with 2000 ranks in every skill.
Thank you. The arguments I had with people about this were asinine - fan-boys who could not apply a principle across the boards and refused to bring any of their own data to the table(not talking about Zerreck).
>> The construct is no longer capped at level 140. Its level is now derived very similarly to that of the zombie, so it should be much more useful to you guys on the high end who were running into the level cap.
Neat. Depending on how good or bad they turn out, necros might become DPS steamrollers.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
From what I seen in certain situations, this makes a lot of sense. Glad it was un-capped.
>> 1. The zombie can no longer be capped with ~1300 TM. This means that a Necromancer with 1300 TM can no longer summon a level 250 zombie with 2000 ranks in every skill.
Thank you. The arguments I had with people about this were asinine - fan-boys who could not apply a principle across the boards and refused to bring any of their own data to the table(not talking about Zerreck).
>> The construct is no longer capped at level 140. Its level is now derived very similarly to that of the zombie, so it should be much more useful to you guys on the high end who were running into the level cap.
Neat. Depending on how good or bad they turn out, necros might become DPS steamrollers.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
ALGOTHI
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 12:11 AM CST
Very nice Melete! Constructs are looking a lot more useful for me. Very minor request, any change we could get some more size adjectives for the constructs? Having all 600+ TM capped Construct being Immense is a little boring. Id love to see Giant, Massive, Colossal, Gargantuan, and Monolithic as possible new size adjectives.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DR-MELETE
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 03:59 AM CST
>>construct adjectives
I'm down with adding more adjectives assuming your advocate and ally are down with it; it's just that "Giant, Massive, Colossal, Gargantuan, and Monolithic" don't really sort into a predictable order in my brain. If someone can come up with a list that's clearly ordered I can run it past them and see what they think.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
I'm down with adding more adjectives assuming your advocate and ally are down with it; it's just that "Giant, Massive, Colossal, Gargantuan, and Monolithic" don't really sort into a predictable order in my brain. If someone can come up with a list that's clearly ordered I can run it past them and see what they think.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
DRFREAK
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 08:44 AM CST
>If someone can come up with a list that's clearly ordered I can run it past them and see what they think.
For anyone who plays D&D or Pathfinder, Size order is fair clear with...
Immense
Gargantuan
Colossal
Monolithic
I know this only adds 3 more steps from what we already have, but that is likely enough.
-Grave Lord Zerreck Arkarm
STILVA
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 12:08 PM CST
>Before you panic, however, Socharis did find a bug/weirdness with how creatures with shields and weapons were being affected by DFA spells. Essentially, they were only being allowed to use 60% of their evasion skill against DFA.
This is just an observation, but wouldn't that have actually been correct if they were stanced to parry or use shield? (default is 100/60, after all.)
Unless they're stanced to be 100% in all three defenses at all times, anyways...
This is just an observation, but wouldn't that have actually been correct if they were stanced to parry or use shield? (default is 100/60, after all.)
Unless they're stanced to be 100% in all three defenses at all times, anyways...
STILVA
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 12:11 PM CST
(double post)
Default is 100/80, actually. I think. I'm super tired, sorry about that.
Still curious to if they're meant to be all 100s in stance or such though!
Default is 100/80, actually. I think. I'm super tired, sorry about that.
Still curious to if they're meant to be all 100s in stance or such though!
ASHAMAN1
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 12:12 PM CST
Critter skills/stances don't work quite like ours do. Leave it at 'Was bugged, now fixed'. It WAS a case of zombie dodged X all day, hand him a shield, BLAMMO. Now its better.
Samsaren
Samsaren
DR-MELETE
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 10:15 PM CST
>>Still curious to if they're meant to be all 100s in stance or such though!
No, creatures don't get all 100s. Keeping in mind that I didn't make this change -- from what I understand creatures were not getting the benefit of this:
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:DFA_Spells_-_11/25/2012_-_10:41
And now they are.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
No, creatures don't get all 100s. Keeping in mind that I didn't make this change -- from what I understand creatures were not getting the benefit of this:
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:DFA_Spells_-_11/25/2012_-_10:41
And now they are.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 10:22 PM CST
I noticed after all of this that my zombie is around the same skill wise. Question... Offense wise there wasn't a whole lot of difference between Zerreck's zombie and mine in test the last time we were in there. I'm pretty worried because of the fact that Samsaren is around my skill range rather then Zerreck's, and while my zombie was barely hurting him, Zerreck's really wasn't doing much better. I'm not sure if this is more an issue with zombies an heavy armor or what, but its disconcerting. I know people have raved about the insane defensive nature of Zerreck's zombies but on the flipside watching it attack somebody that was most likely 300+ ranks less or more in defenses vs his TM was sad. It basically was just a slight bother.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 10:27 PM CST
The current change helped, Zerreck's construct was whomping me pretty well post tweak.
Samsaren
Samsaren
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/10/2014 10:44 PM CST
It was his zombie that was failing to harm you to bad last time, did you guys test a zombie again? It was just kind of funky because the disparity between the zombies defense and offense was apparently appalling. There's no doubt besides the DFA funkiness that the zombie was pretty crazy defensively. I'm just not sure what about these current changes would have changed his zombies actual offensive ability. I can understand the construct scaling higher, but its odd that a current scaling construct would whoop you when a capped 250 zombie didn't before.
DRFREAK
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/11/2014 10:51 AM CST
I am certain that me and Sam will have other tests coming up soon. Part of the issue is when a paladin has a group and can LEAD, suddenly the paladin is a whole lot better. when buffed i am around 1320 TM. The construct may actually have a little more offense then the zombie now. But I will do further testing and let you folks know.
-Grave Lord Zerreck Arkarm
DRFREAK
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/11/2014 02:11 PM CST
So after some testing today with Warbrolus, Traim, and Liurilias, Constructs seem a bit too defensive, though not unstoppable. But the stun was almost never happening. Also the melee DPS on them was real low.
Testing with the same people, Zombie seemed about right, damage without giving it a crazy weapon was also really low. BUT with a crazy weapon was good. Once handed a shield, it was instantly ripped apart. So there might be something going on with shield and pets.
Overall pets seem to have awesome defences, somewhat low health, low damage.
I tried zombies while stance potency and integrity. They seemed identical. This may be cause i am capping the spell, and getting max for both?
If there is anything else you want tested with pets let me know, and I would be happy to.
-Grave Lord Zerreck Arkarm
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/11/2014 02:26 PM CST
>>I tried zombies while stance potency and integrity. They seemed identical. This may be cause i am capping the spell, and getting max for both?
AFAIK, spell stances just determine how quickly you reach that particular capped aspect of the spell. Once you hit the cap of that aspect, the additional mana past that point is distributed between the other two aspects, and once you hit the cap of that second aspect, the rest goes into the final aspect.
TL;DR: Yes.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
AFAIK, spell stances just determine how quickly you reach that particular capped aspect of the spell. Once you hit the cap of that aspect, the additional mana past that point is distributed between the other two aspects, and once you hit the cap of that second aspect, the rest goes into the final aspect.
TL;DR: Yes.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/11/2014 03:14 PM CST
Something definately seems off with pet HP. Its like they're stuck on 2.0 model. Maybe something never converted quite right for them
DRFREAK
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/11/2014 03:20 PM CST
Yeah, It's either people miss always, or it gets destroyed in like 2-3 hits. It has amazing defenses, so its immune to a lot of people. But as soon as its hit, it dies. Making necrotic reconstruction somewhat of a waste, once injured no time to heal it.
Also, before i get the silly posts from people. ALL OF THESE TESTS ARE FOR PVP.
I understand in PVE the pets work amazingly, and are just great.
-Grave Lord Zerreck Arkarm
ALGOTHI
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/11/2014 03:40 PM CST
>Yeah, It's either people miss always, or it gets destroyed in like 2-3 hits.
Hmm, could be a Hitpoint issue or maybe even an Armor issue?
>Also, before i get the silly posts from people. ALL OF THESE TESTS ARE FOR PVP.
LOL.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Hmm, could be a Hitpoint issue or maybe even an Armor issue?
>Also, before i get the silly posts from people. ALL OF THESE TESTS ARE FOR PVP.
LOL.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
STILVA
Re: Zombie and Construct Changes
01/12/2014 02:52 PM CST
>Yeah, It's either people miss always, or it gets destroyed in like 2-3 hits. It has amazing defenses, so its immune to a lot of people. But as soon as its hit, it dies. Making necrotic reconstruction somewhat of a waste, once injured no time to heal it.
Shot in the dark here, but I'm wondering if it's armor ranks weren't/improperly updated and still read as having [leather armor, light chain, heavy chain, etc.] - None of the old skill namings are valid anymore, so they may not work correctly. It would be like having no armor ranks at all and severely skew it's ability to take hits.
Shot in the dark here, but I'm wondering if it's armor ranks weren't/improperly updated and still read as having [leather armor, light chain, heavy chain, etc.] - None of the old skill namings are valid anymore, so they may not work correctly. It would be like having no armor ranks at all and severely skew it's ability to take hits.
