TAKE [person] WOUND/SCAR only takes vitality.
At 230 Empathy, TAKE [PERSON] ALL heals all this;
She has severe scarring about the head, a constant twitching in the neck, a constant twitching in the right arm, a constant twitching in the left arm, a constant twitching in the right leg, an occasional twitching in the left leg, faint scuffing to the right hand, a constant twitching in the right hand, severe scarring along the left hand, a constant twitching in the chest area, severe scarring along the abdomen, a constant twitching in the back, a constant twitching in the right eye, a constant twitching in the left eye, slight difficulty moving her arms and legs.
In one pulse. Partner in the test had 181 Empathy, and healed it all back in two pulses.
JHALIASCLERIC
DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/09/2013 04:15 PM CST
>>TAKE [person] WOUND/SCAR only takes vitality.
Fixed. Inputting just WOUND/SCAR/INTERNAL/EXTERNAL now just defaults to ALL of the specified malady.
>>She has severe scarring about the head, a constant twitching in the neck, a constant twitching in the right arm, a constant twitching in the left arm, a constant twitching in the right leg, an occasional twitching in the left leg, faint scuffing to the right hand, a constant twitching in the right hand, severe scarring along the left hand, a constant twitching in the chest area, severe scarring along the abdomen, a constant twitching in the back, a constant twitching in the right eye, a constant twitching in the left eye, slight difficulty moving her arms and legs.
Does it seem excessive to you? Keeping in mind that there are two new healing techniques for higher level Empaths to grow into now. I have permission for another one even higher as well, though of course no time frame as ever.
In the new system the max you can transfer is 2/3 of useless wound. Not sure what it is in the old one. Also, higher level Empaths get the transfer reduction perk which takes a loooong time to max out.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
Fixed. Inputting just WOUND/SCAR/INTERNAL/EXTERNAL now just defaults to ALL of the specified malady.
>>She has severe scarring about the head, a constant twitching in the neck, a constant twitching in the right arm, a constant twitching in the left arm, a constant twitching in the right leg, an occasional twitching in the left leg, faint scuffing to the right hand, a constant twitching in the right hand, severe scarring along the left hand, a constant twitching in the chest area, severe scarring along the abdomen, a constant twitching in the back, a constant twitching in the right eye, a constant twitching in the left eye, slight difficulty moving her arms and legs.
Does it seem excessive to you? Keeping in mind that there are two new healing techniques for higher level Empaths to grow into now. I have permission for another one even higher as well, though of course no time frame as ever.
In the new system the max you can transfer is 2/3 of useless wound. Not sure what it is in the old one. Also, higher level Empaths get the transfer reduction perk which takes a loooong time to max out.
Melete
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Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
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JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/09/2013 04:46 PM CST
>Does it seem excessive to you? Keeping in mind that there are two new healing techniques for higher level Empaths to grow into now. I have permission for another one even higher as well, though of course no time frame as ever.
I am by no means someone who should be answering this in whole, but my impression as someone with a 40thish circle Empath is that yes, the pulse size for TRANSFER ALL is too high, given the scope of what UNITY is supposed to do. Again, I'm saying this as someone who has not experimented with UNITY, having only 230 Empathy, so, what are the RT's involved in UNITY? If two RT-less commands result in a full heal of everything on a patient in approximately 5-6ish seconds, my feeling is UNITY is going to have to be doing something better, faster, stronger.
Of course, again, I'm saying this as someone with only 230 Empathy. Maybe the wound reduction that kicks in makes TRANSFER ALL a continually useful option, especially if paired with REDIRECT (another ability I'm not yet capable of examining).
I also tested this with an Empath; I've no idea how or if the XP scales while healing with this technique.
I am by no means someone who should be answering this in whole, but my impression as someone with a 40thish circle Empath is that yes, the pulse size for TRANSFER ALL is too high, given the scope of what UNITY is supposed to do. Again, I'm saying this as someone who has not experimented with UNITY, having only 230 Empathy, so, what are the RT's involved in UNITY? If two RT-less commands result in a full heal of everything on a patient in approximately 5-6ish seconds, my feeling is UNITY is going to have to be doing something better, faster, stronger.
Of course, again, I'm saying this as someone with only 230 Empathy. Maybe the wound reduction that kicks in makes TRANSFER ALL a continually useful option, especially if paired with REDIRECT (another ability I'm not yet capable of examining).
I also tested this with an Empath; I've no idea how or if the XP scales while healing with this technique.
DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/09/2013 05:25 PM CST
>>take all vs. unity
Unity's niche is that it's truly instantaneous. There's no delay between starting the transfer and it happening.
It doesn't leave scars. So an Empath who uses unity will have fewer wounds to heal up afterward. They get only the wounds the patient has, not the wounds, then the scars from healing the wounds.
Lastly, I want it to teach better. Not sure if that's the case now due to a dearth of testing, but that's the idea.
If you still think TAKE ALL is too close to unity (and if others want to weigh in) I can certainly downtweak the standard healing a bit. The consequence of this is that partial transfers might have to be a bit harder, since you can't use take half until you are able to transfer half of a wound in one go, etc.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
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Unity's niche is that it's truly instantaneous. There's no delay between starting the transfer and it happening.
It doesn't leave scars. So an Empath who uses unity will have fewer wounds to heal up afterward. They get only the wounds the patient has, not the wounds, then the scars from healing the wounds.
Lastly, I want it to teach better. Not sure if that's the case now due to a dearth of testing, but that's the idea.
If you still think TAKE ALL is too close to unity (and if others want to weigh in) I can certainly downtweak the standard healing a bit. The consequence of this is that partial transfers might have to be a bit harder, since you can't use take half until you are able to transfer half of a wound in one go, etc.
Melete
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LAMBL
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/09/2013 06:12 PM CST
>>take all vs. unity
I figured I'd do a little test. I put the hurty thing at 1 so that I don't just lock the crap out of Empathy right away. I killed myself to clear exp pools between methods.
800 Empathy ranks.
Unity
-Empathy went to 26/34
-1 cast of FoC at 77 mana and 130% potency completely healed me afterward
Take All Quick
-Empathy went to 32/34 (more than Unity)
-I ended up with Negligible wounds and scars inside and out everywhere instead of Minor wounds inside and out.
-1 cast of FoC the same as before completely healed me afterward
So TAKE ALL QUICK ended up being better for experience and taking insignificantly longer (I got everything in one healing pulse).
I then cranked the hurty thing up to 2 to try and get a better idea of how much healing I needed to perform on myself after each method.
Unity
-Empathy went to 34/34
-One FoC cast healed all but 5.5 areas and left the other .5 at Minor instead of Harmful
-The second FoC cast fully healed me and left me at 89% vitality and 30% fatigue
Take All Quick
-Empathy went to 34/34
-I ended up with Minor wounds/scars everywhere
-One FoC left 3 areas unhealed and one with just Negligible internal scars remaining
-The second FoC fully healed me and left me at 91% vitality and 78% fatigue
TAKE ALL QUICK wins again here: I still needed 2 FoC casts, but the second one cost me less than when I healed with Unity.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
I figured I'd do a little test. I put the hurty thing at 1 so that I don't just lock the crap out of Empathy right away. I killed myself to clear exp pools between methods.
800 Empathy ranks.
Unity
-Empathy went to 26/34
-1 cast of FoC at 77 mana and 130% potency completely healed me afterward
Take All Quick
-Empathy went to 32/34 (more than Unity)
-I ended up with Negligible wounds and scars inside and out everywhere instead of Minor wounds inside and out.
-1 cast of FoC the same as before completely healed me afterward
So TAKE ALL QUICK ended up being better for experience and taking insignificantly longer (I got everything in one healing pulse).
I then cranked the hurty thing up to 2 to try and get a better idea of how much healing I needed to perform on myself after each method.
Unity
-Empathy went to 34/34
-One FoC cast healed all but 5.5 areas and left the other .5 at Minor instead of Harmful
-The second FoC cast fully healed me and left me at 89% vitality and 30% fatigue
Take All Quick
-Empathy went to 34/34
-I ended up with Minor wounds/scars everywhere
-One FoC left 3 areas unhealed and one with just Negligible internal scars remaining
-The second FoC fully healed me and left me at 91% vitality and 78% fatigue
TAKE ALL QUICK wins again here: I still needed 2 FoC casts, but the second one cost me less than when I healed with Unity.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/09/2013 06:31 PM CST
The wound no scar transfer is pretty neat certainly, I hadn't thought of that. Despite how potent regen and foc are, I wager that's still a pretty huge saving, as karthor showed.
But yeah, the speed thing seems problematic, given how fast transference is. If it was a convenience only, and not speed utility, I'd still use it.
Maybe unity needs a buff? Or wound reduction enhancement options, like healing slower results in more rwduction, and healing individual wounds results in more reduction?
But yeah, the speed thing seems problematic, given how fast transference is. If it was a convenience only, and not speed utility, I'd still use it.
Maybe unity needs a buff? Or wound reduction enhancement options, like healing slower results in more rwduction, and healing individual wounds results in more reduction?
DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/09/2013 09:47 PM CST
Based on your feedback:
* I increased the EXP from the unity ability. (Note: Though I suppose it's possible that normal healing just teaches too well in test right now. Does it feel comparable to prime? That's what I'm aiming for. I will probably do some tests of my own regarding this.)
* I added a mechanic that scales wound reduction difficulty based on quick/slow. So a quick transfer requires more skill to get a wound reduction. A slow one requires less skill.
* I added a small delay to take all, based on skill. This is only for the big groups of wounds, take ALL, take all externals, take all scars, take all wounds, etc. Not take all head scars or take all head, or things like that.
Let me know how it feels.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
* I increased the EXP from the unity ability. (Note: Though I suppose it's possible that normal healing just teaches too well in test right now. Does it feel comparable to prime? That's what I'm aiming for. I will probably do some tests of my own regarding this.)
* I added a mechanic that scales wound reduction difficulty based on quick/slow. So a quick transfer requires more skill to get a wound reduction. A slow one requires less skill.
* I added a small delay to take all, based on skill. This is only for the big groups of wounds, take ALL, take all externals, take all scars, take all wounds, etc. Not take all head scars or take all head, or things like that.
Let me know how it feels.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
SPOILEDBRAT
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/10/2013 01:49 AM CST
It seems like take all is just a bit high yet on experience. For the same "generate minor injuries" take all locked me up at 597 empathy where unity gets me to 26/34. I'll keep testing.
DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/10/2013 04:35 AM CST
Gave unity an EXP bump. Let me know how it feels. It should be slightly better than a normal transfer but not OMGBBQ levels of better.
Melete
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Empath Advocate
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Melete
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Empath Advocate
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LAMBL
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/10/2013 05:59 PM CST
Looks like the adjustments are working okay. One thing I noticed though, that makes me think my previous test shows a problem with FoC. When I take half of an area's injuries using the NORMAL option (so no severity reduction), I end up with the same amount of injury as when I do a complete transfer without it. This suggests to me that I'm reducing about half of the injuries I transfer.
That means that I should end up with about the same amount of injury as when I use Unity (half as much injury in twice as many places, because of the scars), but FoC has an easier time healing me when it's wounds and scars from the traditional transfer as opposed to wounds only from Unity. That seems...odd.
If Unity is intended to have the benefit of reducing the burden of self-healing afterward, maybe Unity could have a lingering effect for the duration of the cooldown that makes your own injuries easier to heal during that time. So it would take less potency to heal the same injuries, or more injuries could be healed for the same potency. Or something?
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
That means that I should end up with about the same amount of injury as when I use Unity (half as much injury in twice as many places, because of the scars), but FoC has an easier time healing me when it's wounds and scars from the traditional transfer as opposed to wounds only from Unity. That seems...odd.
If Unity is intended to have the benefit of reducing the burden of self-healing afterward, maybe Unity could have a lingering effect for the duration of the cooldown that makes your own injuries easier to heal during that time. So it would take less potency to heal the same injuries, or more injuries could be healed for the same potency. Or something?
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/10/2013 11:17 PM CST
>>problem with FoC.
I'll open 'er up and see what's under the hood. It's been a while since I dug into the workings of that spell.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
I'll open 'er up and see what's under the hood. It's been a while since I dug into the workings of that spell.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
LAMBL
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/11/2013 11:30 AM CST
>>problem with FoC.
On further review, I think I oversimplified things with my previous "half as much injury in twice as many places" assessment. I failed to account for the fact that healing your own wounds generates scars. It turns out that the half-severity wounds and scars actually is less to heal than full-severity wounds only. Here's why:
Let x = the amount of wounds on the patient
Using Unity, you end up with x on yourself. But then healing those x wounds creates x scars as well, so the total self-healing you need to perform is x wounds and (0 + x) scars, where (0 + x) is of the form (transferred scars + scars from self-healed wounds). This comes to a total of 2x healing to perform on yourself.
Now let's do it again assuming a 50% severity reduction on a traditional transfer. Here you have x/2 wounds to heal and (x/2 + x/2) scars. This comes out to 1.5x, which is less than what you see with Unity.
My numbers might not match how it actually works, but the concept makes sense. For instance, there's probably some sort of cap on how much scarring you can generate by healing your own wounds (otherwise you couldn't heal your wounds if you already have nasty scars on the wounded area), and that might muddy things up some.
My current hypothesis is that when FoC heals some wounds, it creates scars which it then has to go back and spend more power to heal. This and the above reasoning would explain why it has a harder time healing my "Unity heal" than the traditional healing.
Is it a design goal to have Unity leave yourself with less to heal up afterward compared to a normal transfer assuming maximum possible severity reduction, or are you okay with letting high-level severity reductions win out on that? If it's the former, maybe instead of my previous brainstorm about making wounds easier to heal, Unity could create a lingering "healing your own wounds doesn't leave scars" effect, again only for the duration of the cooldown on Unity.
Sorry if I sent you on a wild goose chase into FoC for no reason :/
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
On further review, I think I oversimplified things with my previous "half as much injury in twice as many places" assessment. I failed to account for the fact that healing your own wounds generates scars. It turns out that the half-severity wounds and scars actually is less to heal than full-severity wounds only. Here's why:
Let x = the amount of wounds on the patient
Using Unity, you end up with x on yourself. But then healing those x wounds creates x scars as well, so the total self-healing you need to perform is x wounds and (0 + x) scars, where (0 + x) is of the form (transferred scars + scars from self-healed wounds). This comes to a total of 2x healing to perform on yourself.
Now let's do it again assuming a 50% severity reduction on a traditional transfer. Here you have x/2 wounds to heal and (x/2 + x/2) scars. This comes out to 1.5x, which is less than what you see with Unity.
My numbers might not match how it actually works, but the concept makes sense. For instance, there's probably some sort of cap on how much scarring you can generate by healing your own wounds (otherwise you couldn't heal your wounds if you already have nasty scars on the wounded area), and that might muddy things up some.
My current hypothesis is that when FoC heals some wounds, it creates scars which it then has to go back and spend more power to heal. This and the above reasoning would explain why it has a harder time healing my "Unity heal" than the traditional healing.
Is it a design goal to have Unity leave yourself with less to heal up afterward compared to a normal transfer assuming maximum possible severity reduction, or are you okay with letting high-level severity reductions win out on that? If it's the former, maybe instead of my previous brainstorm about making wounds easier to heal, Unity could create a lingering "healing your own wounds doesn't leave scars" effect, again only for the duration of the cooldown on Unity.
Sorry if I sent you on a wild goose chase into FoC for no reason :/
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/11/2013 04:35 PM CST
>>My current hypothesis is that when FoC heals some wounds, it creates scars which it then has to go back and spend more power to heal. This and the above reasoning would explain why it has a harder time healing my "Unity heal" than the traditional healing.
Ohh, I think I know what is happening here. It's a peculiarity of healing on an engine level, that behaves in a way most people would not anticipate. I'll have to think about the best way to address it.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
Ohh, I think I know what is happening here. It's a peculiarity of healing on an engine level, that behaves in a way most people would not anticipate. I'll have to think about the best way to address it.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/11/2013 05:29 PM CST
>>Ohh, I think I know what is happening here. It's a peculiarity of healing on an engine level, that behaves in a way most people would not anticipate. I'll have to think about the best way to address it.
Would this potentially also help how Devour functions?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Would this potentially also help how Devour functions?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/11/2013 05:30 PM CST
>>Would this potentially also help how Devour functions?
No, but I haven't forgotten about Devour or Heal. I started to revisit those recently, but decided that my first idea for improving them was still kind of weaksauce, so I've gone back to the drawing board with a new idea to see if I can get approval for it.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
No, but I haven't forgotten about Devour or Heal. I started to revisit those recently, but decided that my first idea for improving them was still kind of weaksauce, so I've gone back to the drawing board with a new idea to see if I can get approval for it.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/11/2013 05:34 PM CST
And -- to be clear, the way FoC works isn't exactly buggy, it's just (probably) behaving in an unanticipated way. Which, that may seem like splitting hairs, but eh. It behaves the same way as all other healing, it's just that the way other healing behaves is quirky and in some rare instances can make things act in a way that most people would not expect.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
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Melete
Events Lead
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Empath Advocate
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DR-MELETE
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/12/2013 08:38 PM CST
More FoC stuff. Digging through the code, FoC actually sidestepped the problem I thought it might have, so that's good, but while I was in there I discovered that the updates to fatigue and health pools might have significantly nerfed the amount of healing possible with FoC.
So I reworked that. According to the comments, the maximum possible healing is meant to be half of a disintegrated moon mage. This is wounds (internal and external) only, not including scars. So it should be about to that level again.
Let me know how it feels. I'll continue to mull the unity thing.
Melete
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So I reworked that. According to the comments, the maximum possible healing is meant to be half of a disintegrated moon mage. This is wounds (internal and external) only, not including scars. So it should be about to that level again.
Let me know how it feels. I'll continue to mull the unity thing.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
LAMBL
Re: Take WOUNDS/SCARS/ALL
12/14/2013 08:08 AM CST
<<So I reworked that. According to the comments, the maximum possible healing is meant to be half of a disintegrated moon mage. This is wounds (internal and external) only, not including scars. So it should be about to that level again.>>
Yeah the amount of healing is definitely a lot better. My 77 mana cast healed everything but my nerves and an insignificant amount of skin after being hit by the hurty thing at "damaging" (which should be half of a disintegrated Moon Mage, I think). Those same damaging wounds reduced via transference from Testone were completely healed by one cast.
I'm not stunning anymore, and it's only consuming about 10% of my vitality and 3% of my fatigue. It's costing little enough that I'm not even getting the message about vitality/fatigue consumption after the "leaving you <amount> healed" part, even after motoring through as many devastating injuries as it could manage (which was all but about 6ish locations inside and out). Not sure if that's right or not, but it seemed like it could conceivably be an unintended side effect of the adjustment so I figured I'd mention it.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
Yeah the amount of healing is definitely a lot better. My 77 mana cast healed everything but my nerves and an insignificant amount of skin after being hit by the hurty thing at "damaging" (which should be half of a disintegrated Moon Mage, I think). Those same damaging wounds reduced via transference from Testone were completely healed by one cast.
I'm not stunning anymore, and it's only consuming about 10% of my vitality and 3% of my fatigue. It's costing little enough that I'm not even getting the message about vitality/fatigue consumption after the "leaving you <amount> healed" part, even after motoring through as many devastating injuries as it could manage (which was all but about 6ish locations inside and out). Not sure if that's right or not, but it seemed like it could conceivably be an unintended side effect of the adjustment so I figured I'd mention it.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
