<< It's hitting again but the damage is way down from what it usually is.

I don't have any of the buffs at my disposal right now but I'm getting about the same hard/solid hits as i do in live and i agree, it is indeed about the same as a regular SE attack. The damage sure sucks for a guild gimmick but i don't think this has anything to do with the stance changes anymore. My best guess is that it got a bit unfairly capped out along with combat 3.0, the same as all other hard hitting attacks.

>>Probably because sometimes you want to get hit with dillo webs to learn athletics?

Folks you just been served grade AAA Srilon steak, juicy, tender done to perfection. Lets enjoy it not pick it apart to fit every single "personal whim" in every possible scenario.

>> -Shield is pretty usless now other than you need to carry one you dont actually have to train it.

NO idea where this comes from - pure hyperbole.

My Parry is several tiers higher than Shield(highest in prime) and would still get beaten badly by Shield.

The only people the 100/80/80 would greatly benefit are people who completely ignored Shield. Even a tert is going to be within 20-25% of a primary if given equal training time(which is ideally all that can be asked for).

Let's stop making stuff up.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

In prime @ 11:02am CST 01/12/2014:

H> app int careful
You are certain that the Dragon Priest intercessor is healthy.
You are certain that it is about as strong as you are.
You are certain that it is about as agile as you are.
You are certain that it is about as disciplined as you are.
You are certain that it is about as quick to react as you are.
You are certain that it is about as conditioned as you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a shadowy black nightmaster's shield displaying a glossy midnight black durgauldite and a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the Dragon Priest intercessor is a less skilled opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the Dragon Priest intercessor is something that you could tear to shreds.
If you attacked with a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you threw the blade at the enemy you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train rather well.
You remain concealed by your surroundings, convinced that your appraisal of a Dragon Priest intercessor went unobserved.

HR> mark all int

You carefully size up the Dragon Priest intercessor, gauging her overall perception.
As you consider stealing from the Dragon Priest intercessor, you believe that perhaps it's a little risky (8/13).
You also eye the Dragon Priest intercessor over, trying to discern how much wealth she is carrying.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider hiding around the Dragon Priest intercessor, you believe she shouldn't catch you (3/13).
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider an attempt to stalk the Dragon Priest intercessor, you believe she shouldn't catch you (3/13).
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider a stealthy assault on the Dragon Priest intercessor, it's about even odds (7/13).
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 2 sec.

A fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip is a medium edged melee-ranged weapon.
A fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip trains the small edged skill.
The nightmaster's blade is ill suited, but usable, for backstabbing.

You are certain that it could do:
very heavy (10/26) puncture damage
somewhat fair (4/26) slice damage
low (3/26) impact damage
no (0/26) fire damage
no (0/26) cold damage
no (0/26) electric damage

The nightmaster's blade is dismally (2/17) designed for improving the force of your attacks.

You are certain that the blade is very well (10/17) balanced and is poorly (3/17) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the nightmaster's blade is very strong against damage (14/18), and is rather scuffed up (70-79%).

The nightmaster's blade is made with metal.
You are certain that the nightmaster's blade weighs exactly 30 stones.
The nightmaster's blade looks to be custom-made.
You are certain that the nightmaster's blade is worth exactly 3608000 Dokoras.
You sense a deep connection with the nightmaster's blade, as if it will be with you always.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.

R> smirk
You smirk to yourself, knowing you are at the absolute top of your game (+5)
Your surroundings fit your talents perfectly.

> khri check
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 17 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 17 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Prowess meditation, which should last around 17 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Focus meditation, which should last around 17 roisaen.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.

> exp mods
The following skills are currently under the influence of a modifier:

+ Backstab

HR> back

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Moving like a striking snake, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor fails to dodge, failing miserably.
The blade lands a heavy strike (7/22) that scratches her in a slash from behind, lightly stunning her.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

HR> back

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Moving with powerful grace, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor attempts to dodge, moving directly into the blow.
The blade lands a massive strike (11/22) that punctures deeply into the right bicep, severing a small artery.
[You're winded, adeptly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

HR> back

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Driving in like an adept combatant, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor attempts to evade, mis-stepping and blundering into the blow.
The blade lands a powerful strike (10/22) that skewers a perfect hole between the shoulder blades (Heart Burn!).
The Dragon Priest intercessor's body goes still, the deadly spark of life within him having been extinguished.
[You're incredibly balanced]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

______________________

In test @ 11:10am CDT 01/12/2014

H> app int careful
You are certain that the Dragon Priest intercessor is healthy.
You are certain that it is about as strong as you are.
You are certain that it is about as agile as you are.
You are certain that it is not quite as disciplined as you are.
You are certain that it is about as quick to react as you are.
You are certain that it is about as conditioned as you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a shadowy black nightmaster's shield displaying a glossy midnight black durgauldite and a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the Dragon Priest intercessor is a less skilled opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the Dragon Priest intercessor is something you could wipe the floor with.
If you attacked with a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you threw the blade at the enemy you are certain that it would train very well, provided you can land a blow.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train rather well.
You remain concealed by your surroundings, convinced that your appraisal of a Dragon Priest intercessor went unobserved.

[Roundtime: 10 seconds]

H> mark all int

You carefully size up the Dragon Priest intercessor, gauging her overall perception.
As you consider stealing from the Dragon Priest intercessor, you believe it's about even odds (7/13).
You also eye the Dragon Priest intercessor over, trying to discern how much wealth she is carrying.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider hiding around the Dragon Priest intercessor, you believe she shouldn't catch you (3/13).
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider an attempt to stalk the Dragon Priest intercessor, you believe she shouldn't catch you (3/13).
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
As you consider a stealthy assault on the Dragon Priest intercessor, you believe she has a low chance of stopping your attack (4/13).
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.

A fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip is a medium edged melee-ranged weapon.
A fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip trains the small edged skill.
The nightmaster's blade is ill suited, but usable, for backstabbing.

You are certain that it could do:
very heavy (10/26) puncture damage
somewhat fair (4/26) slice damage
low (3/26) impact damage
no (0/26) fire damage
no (0/26) cold damage
no (0/26) electric damage

The nightmaster's blade is dismally (2/17) designed for improving the force of your attacks.

You are certain that the blade is very well (10/17) balanced and is poorly (3/17) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the nightmaster's blade is very strong against damage (14/18), and is rather scuffed up (70-79%).

The nightmaster's blade is made with metal.
You are certain that the nightmaster's blade weighs exactly 30 stones.
The nightmaster's blade looks to be custom-made.
You are certain that the nightmaster's blade is worth exactly 3608000 Dokoras.
You sense a deep connection with the nightmaster's blade, as if it will be with you always.
You remain concealed by your surroundings, convinced that your appraisal of a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip went unobserved.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.

H> smirk
You smirk to yourself, knowing you are at the absolute top of your game (+5)
Your surroundings fit your talents perfectly.
H> khri check

H>
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.

H> exp mods
The following skills are currently under the influence of a modifier:

+ Small Edged
+ Bow
+ Crossbow
+ Light Thrown
+ Heavy Thrown
+ Brawling
+ Evasion
+ Backstab

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Moving with incredible power and control, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor attempts to dodge, mis-stepping and blundering into the blow.
The blade lands a strong hit (6/22) to the intercessor back.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and in strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

H> back

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Moving like a striking snake, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor fails to evade, taking the full blow.
The blade lands a solid hit (4/22) to the intercessor back.
[You're winded, adeptly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

HR> back

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< With the speed and temerity of a swooping falcon, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor fails to evade, leaning wrong and blundering into the blow.
The blade lands a heavy strike (7/22) that cuts a ragged line across the back, stunning her.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

H> back

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Driving in with naturally fluid movements, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor attempts to evade, mis-stepping and blundering into the blow.
The blade lands a hard hit (5/22) that nicks the intercessor neck.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

HR> back

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Driving in like an adept combatant, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor attempts to evade, moving directly into the blow.
The blade lands a hard hit (5/22) to the intercessor head.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

H> back

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Driving in like an unbeatable force, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor fails to dodge, moving directly into the blow.
The blade lands a heavy strike (7/22) that bites deeply into the neck and pokes a neat little hole in the jugular, knocking her completely senseless.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab a Dragon Priest intercessor!
< Driving in like an unbeatable force, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at a Dragon Priest intercessor. A Dragon Priest intercessor attempts to evade, mis-stepping and blundering into the blow.
The blade lands a strong hit (6/22) that skewers a perfect hole between the shoulder blades (Heart Burn!).
The Dragon Priest intercessor's body goes still, the deadly spark of life within him having been extinguished.
[You're incredibly balanced]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

I know this is just one example from each instance, but It perfectly outlines what I saw during my entire hour of testing. If you need more detail than that, I'll email you.

I might also chalk this up to debug messaging. It's obviously not intended to be there when the game is live, but it's probably there now so when GMs run tests to make sure things are working, they're actually triggering. I do that all the time when I'm testing out scripts with things like "NOW STARTING THIS PART" or "NOW STARTING THAT PART" and so on, so I know where things are freezing up if/when they do.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>* Give brigandine and plate armor a chance to critical-protect against damage with special messaging. Brigandine hasn't been adopted as widely as chain/plate, so it needs a little something.

As a brigandine and plate armor wearing war mage, I'm very excited to see how this works out.

bah another reason if I'd start over, I'd prolly go brigandine

_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

Do you really lose the shield hinderance effect just by standing to parry?

<< No.

You don't? Okay, then no issue there. That's all i could come up with.

I only feel like I see one problem with the autostance mechanic. Essentially this allows a person to really only need a evasion/parry stance. As parry will distribute stance points into shield as needed to block ranged attacks. Essentially giving it the same versatility(though somewhat mechanically different) as evasion. Evasion gets kind of a potency penalty for having such a wide range of versatility. But in this stance, you basically are toggling the best melee, and the best ranged defense, almost free, assuming the ranks are there. To me, more and more mechanics like this are making DR a kind of just a stand around and automatically be awesome in combat game. Aside from optimal training routines, this mechanic contributes a 100% benefit to just permanently stay evasion/parry stance, with absolutely no drawbacks.

While I agree that parry needs some love, I feel it can be found in other ways. I just feel a completely 100% distribution ability like this kind of circumvents things like choices and making decisions in combat. It becomes more reliance on character, and less on player. Which, when pushed further and further = boring.


~Van

>Maybe when Parry is able to contribute to ranged defense in some manner we can rethink stancing a bit.

Weaker, any-guild version via combat feats? People seem to forget (quite often) that it'll be a "thing" at one point, and it'd certainly be something worth getting.

Also you should look at the FOI idea earlier. (For once what I said wasn't completely stupid and whiny, I swear), maybe it'll spark an idea? - I just feel that rather than make parry identical to shield, each should be better/worse in their own ways.

Back to the cave...

>I only feel like I see one problem with the autostance mechanic. Essentially this allows a person to really only need a evasion/parry stance.

It's still possible to use evasion/shield all the time if you want.

>Think the point was that most are weapon secondary/armor tertiary and will have quite a bit more parry than shield. The flaw to this design is that while people can use their [most likely higher] parrying skill now...all it really does is make meleeing slightly less effective against those people. It has absolutely zero impact vs throw spam or ranged attacks, and parry continues to be useless against them. Which was kind of the entire complaint people had to begin with...just wanted to point that out.

Yeah its kinda two separate issues.

1) Make using parry not leave you wide open to ranged attacks = Autostance
2) Make parry help with ranged attacks or other defensive re-write = Pending Development.

>Incidentally, does this also not completely destroy the purpose of combat maneuvers? i.e. bypassing shield but won't they just autostance into parry now?

Yes, it did. So Kodius changed maneuvers to work differently.

http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Dragon%20Realms%203.1%20Test/Combat/view/486

Set 1: 50 Backstabs in Prime
Set 2: 50 Backstabs in Test, before autostance was added
Set 3: 50 Backstabs in Test, after autostance was added

	Set 1	Set 2	Set 3
mean	11.02	10.38	4.68
median	11	10	5
mode	11	9	5
St dev	3.86	2.85	1.15

Thank you that was very nice.

>>Incidentally, does this also not completely destroy the purpose of combat maneuvers? i.e. bypassing shield but won't they just autostance into parry now?

Assuming equal ranks in everything, and your shield protects as well as what you're parrying with, I guesso.
And probably guild spells or perks too, shield size/where it's worn(does anyone hold a shield?), and maybe weapon choice.

I'd use AEG over MOF depending on the enemy if my shield was high enough. For now the agility boost outweighs any shield benefit for me.

-another combat rewrite after enchanting comes out?
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

oh, and cleave would still murder a bow user.

_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

>Is the before/after stuff also before/after the change to DFA and critters? Might be that Backstab is being effected by creatures having more defense to DFA style attacks now.

Set 1: 50 Backstabs in Prime on 01/15/2014:
22,12,5,7,14,12,12,9,11,13,11,16,13,9,10,14,17,9,14,6,10,9,17,7,9,15,11,6,5,9,11,7,11,7,11,11,22,9,8,7,9,13,11,17,10,14,11,13,10,5
_________

Set 2: 50 Backstabs in Test on 12/30/2014, before autostance was added:
11,6,9,12,8,11,9,12,13,11,7,10,17,18,8,10,6,13,7,12,9,11,11,13,7,15,5,14,14,12,11,9,11,7,10,8,9,7,14,9,9,10,12,9,10,8,9,16,9,11
_________

Set 3: 50 Backstabs in Test on 1/11/2014 (and verified on 01/15/2014), after autostance was added:
5,4,6,3,7,4,4,5,4,4,5,4,4,3,3,6,6,5,3,6,5,7,7,4,3,4,4,5,5,6,7,6,6,5,4,3,4,5,4,5,5,5,5,4,3,3,5,5,4,5

	Set 1	Set 2	Set 3
mean	11.02	10.38	4.68
median	11	10	5
mode	11	9	5
St dev	3.86	2.85	1.15

There I added dates, I must of missed posts about changes to DFA and critters or that just isn't ringing a bell in my memory. I will say I don't recall noticing anything wrong with backstab until it broke at the exact time that autostance was added, and then was fixed... but looking back in my logs it may of been down quite a bit from other changes too...

So here's a fourth set of data from 01/01/2014
7,7,8,6,8,7,9,7,7,6,8,9,8,8,8,5,8,4

While it is the same critter that's all I have from that log. Guess I just really didn't notice damage was already down quite a bit at that time from just two nights prior, but looks like whatever happened more recently brought it down even more.

Autostance seems to have watered down shatter quite a bit. I posted about it in the Elanthipedia magic complaints, but figured I'd post about it here as well since it has to do with autostance.

Shatter has a second shield skill debuff component, but it isn't really noticeable (to me?) on creatures and players. It would probably be more effective if the no-shield portion were scrapped in favor of something like khri eliminate or another debuff effect (offense or stats?)

>>When it comes to data like that I think the median and the mode are just as relevant as the average because a few vastly dfferent numbers have a greater effect on the average than the other two; so I also included those.

So, statistics is what I do. Please forgive me; I am about to be all educative at you.

In general, the average + standard deviation is fine. The median is really a smart move to include, though, because it's the safest bet: Averages get messed up if your numbers don't come from what we call a normal distribution -- and there's definitely some stuff in DR that isn't normal. That's what may be the case with the few really different numbers you noticed.

The mode doesn't really mean anything here. It's just the number that appears the most. So it would only be meaningful if we suspected something was specifically making, say, 5s appear really often (say if 4s got replaced with 5s).

The way to tell if two groups of numbers are truly different is with a statistical test. However, in this case it's painfully obvious that they are different so we don't really need to run one. That's why I didn't chime in sooner. LHALLFIN, your numbers were actually a great presentation that made this easy to see. The summary mean and median were also nice to see.

/end education tangent /sorry again


-- Player of Eyuve

>>Incidentally, does this also not completely destroy the purpose of combat maneuvers? i.e. bypassing shield but won't they just autostance into parry now?

Maneuvers no longer bypass defenses as it was breaking the math. Entirely possible to 1-hit kill everything due to players losing 50% of their defense and overkill mechanics coming into play. This will change once I've finished the defense rewrite.


Critters use a different mechanics than players.

The vast majority of critters only use 1 defense (evasion) and would insta-die at-circle without a different approach. It was estimated to be a multi-year project to rewrite combat AND rewrite every critter to support something different, so we let them swap a penalized portion of their unused shield/parry stance to make up the difference. This penalty decreases if they have a parry item or shield, and is negated if they have both. This is why sword/shield using enemies are so much harder to hit in melee. It is also why natural critters are easier to hit.

Every time a defense is ignored the critter suffers a cumulative 10% stance point penalty when stance points are traded. If they only have one defense and you ignore that defense, I believe the penalty is higher - but they always have some defense.

Not sure if I want to try something like this with players. It gets tricky because with critters there are only 4 possible start conditions, and with players it is infinite*.

Personally I'd like to see defense ignoring attacks penalize the ignored defense - not ignore it completely.

For example...

Ranged - not considered defense-ignoring. Stays pretty much the same and allows swapping parry to shield stance at or near-100% efficiency determined by DEFENDING skill check.

Single Defense ignore - Not allowed to swap ignored defense stance points. Ignored skill can still used with a 15%-30% penalty depending on DEFENDING skill check.

Two Defense ignore - Not allowed to swap stance points from either skill. Ignored skills can still be used with a 15-30% penalty depending on DEFENDING skill check.

System Pros/Cons:

* Ranged remains the same as it is today in Test

* Defense ignoring attacks are very useful (15-30% penalty is sufficient), without being grossly unbalanced. DFA spell accuracy/damage can increase since they aren't so overpowered.

* Prevents DFA from insta-killing someone because they dropped instantly from 1500 defense to 750 defense.

* Defenses aren't really ignored, just heavily penalized

* Many special attacks/spell messaging might break if the parry or shield contest succeeds



The alternative approach would to be something like...

If only 1 defense is contested, increase that defense by skill points equal to 75-90% of the ignored defenses. Keep ranged autostancing how it is in Test today.

* Prevents breaking of many abilities/spells

* Hard to understand, because you get better at one defense via other defenses

* Otherwise solves many of the same problems raised above

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes