Previous
Yeah you can get some quasi-decent learning done without combat. It sounded like Futility was trying to claim scriptomages held some huge tdp advantage over barbarians, and it just doesn't make sense. Combat is king; every time someone tries to make a case for combat being some sort of tdp inhibitor I face-palm.
CRITTERDASLT
FUTILITY
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 09:46 AM CST
They do, provided you approach it logically.
Skill gain isn't just about TDPs, it's also about circling. Not entering combat at all minimizes your risks to just getting randomly killed, which is notably superior to crit-roulette at high levels of combat, which maximizes your learning time.
I don't know why you'd even bother trying to argue that isn't true; a Barbarian with 15,000 overall ranks is likely just breaking 100th, compared to a Moon Mage with 15,000 ranks who is likely sitting at 150th.
That's actually one of the things the new TDP system actively addresses; by limiting the number of skills per skillset you can gain primary TDPs from, you dissolve some of the advantage magic-users have over NMUs. Socharis even said as much in response to my questioning/opining re: magic primary characters, and Hanryu's question regarding why 3 and not 4 prime-TDP skills in the primary skillset.
The 3/6/3 model actually benefits Barbarians exceptionally well when you consider that keeping Tactics and two Supernatural skills moving in combat doesn't look like it will be much of a challenge at all.
I realize this may boggle your mind, but at the point a Barbarian typically approaches 1k in ANY skill, my Moon Mage has 4 skills that he can keep locked virtually all the time nearing 1.2k. Not noticeable at lower circles, very distinct at higher circles.
Skill gain isn't just about TDPs, it's also about circling. Not entering combat at all minimizes your risks to just getting randomly killed, which is notably superior to crit-roulette at high levels of combat, which maximizes your learning time.
I don't know why you'd even bother trying to argue that isn't true; a Barbarian with 15,000 overall ranks is likely just breaking 100th, compared to a Moon Mage with 15,000 ranks who is likely sitting at 150th.
That's actually one of the things the new TDP system actively addresses; by limiting the number of skills per skillset you can gain primary TDPs from, you dissolve some of the advantage magic-users have over NMUs. Socharis even said as much in response to my questioning/opining re: magic primary characters, and Hanryu's question regarding why 3 and not 4 prime-TDP skills in the primary skillset.
The 3/6/3 model actually benefits Barbarians exceptionally well when you consider that keeping Tactics and two Supernatural skills moving in combat doesn't look like it will be much of a challenge at all.
I realize this may boggle your mind, but at the point a Barbarian typically approaches 1k in ANY skill, my Moon Mage has 4 skills that he can keep locked virtually all the time nearing 1.2k. Not noticeable at lower circles, very distinct at higher circles.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 10:06 AM CST
I'm not sure what the previous statements are cause i didn't read or forget, but Mage's magics are normally pretty high\therfore gain faster TDPs because they can train them in and out of combat. Not that combat isn't KING, it is. But normal players don't spend all there time IG in combat. What other skills can you do that with? I guess mech if you use pyramids. Vocals, only when training defenses (except bards). But I would say a lot of people when they train defenses choose brawling over vocals? Oh yeah...Perception now if you use hunt.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
BEVERAGEK
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 10:16 AM CST
Ohh, I wasn't arguing NMU vs MU TDPs or anything, I was merely saying combat has and probably will always be the premier way of generating TDPs. The whole NMU vs MU thing will probably be moot when Magic 3.0 comes out and the supernatural skillset opens up for Thieves and Barbarians. Alas, I weep for Traders.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
VIOLENTXSHINOBI
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 10:38 AM CST
Oh, this again?
-Reverend Gidien
"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."
~Miyamoto Musashi
-Reverend Gidien
"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."
~Miyamoto Musashi
PENDUS
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 11:07 AM CST
>>The 3/6/3 model actually benefits Barbarians exceptionally well when you consider that keeping Tactics and two Supernatural skills moving in combat doesn't look like it will be much of a challenge at all.<<
Well this also depends on the guild rewrite. Right now, with the ability to dance literally forever, my augmentation skill would probably stay mindlocked. If roars teach debilitation well, I'll be roaring as often as possible also.
Well this also depends on the guild rewrite. Right now, with the ability to dance literally forever, my augmentation skill would probably stay mindlocked. If roars teach debilitation well, I'll be roaring as often as possible also.
FUTILITY
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 12:01 PM CST
>>Well this also depends on the guild rewrite. Right now, with the ability to dance literally forever, my augmentation skill would probably stay mindlocked. If roars teach debilitation well, I'll be roaring as often as possible also.
Kodius hasn't indicated that Barbarians are in for really big changes as far as use of abilities, only implementation and what factors into them. Considering that Supernatural is tert for Barbarians, I don't foresee too many issues keeping Augmentation and one other Supernatural skill moving, whatever that may be.
Kodius hasn't indicated that Barbarians are in for really big changes as far as use of abilities, only implementation and what factors into them. Considering that Supernatural is tert for Barbarians, I don't foresee too many issues keeping Augmentation and one other Supernatural skill moving, whatever that may be.
VEE-REX
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 12:19 PM CST
>>I realize this may boggle your mind, but at the point a Barbarian typically approaches 1k in ANY skill, my Moon Mage has 4 skills that he can keep locked virtually all the time nearing 1.2k.
This x10.
Often times, when comparing skills of similar circles, my Barb has a hundred or so more combat ranks than that of a War Mage. But that same War Mage has 200+ more ranks of PM, Harness, PP, than of my highest skill, all of which I have 0 ranks in. Yes, I learn weapons faster, evasion faster, shield faster, but the mere 100 extra ranks my combats have over theirs doesn't compare to the 1000+ extra ranks of PM/HA/PP that they have over mine. And that's not counting TM and Arcana.
Just food for thought.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
This x10.
Often times, when comparing skills of similar circles, my Barb has a hundred or so more combat ranks than that of a War Mage. But that same War Mage has 200+ more ranks of PM, Harness, PP, than of my highest skill, all of which I have 0 ranks in. Yes, I learn weapons faster, evasion faster, shield faster, but the mere 100 extra ranks my combats have over theirs doesn't compare to the 1000+ extra ranks of PM/HA/PP that they have over mine. And that's not counting TM and Arcana.
Just food for thought.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
FUTILITY
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 03:25 PM CST
>>Just food for thought.
Matches up just fine with mine.
This is and has been the crux of the gap, perceived or real. There's another problem that hasn't really been hit upon yet (ignoring MO) but there's a finite limit on primary skill set skills for Barbarians and Paladins, since their primary skill sets revolve around combat, which require enablers that don't currently exist (i.e. higher level critters).
These are issues that the new TDP solution addresses squarely, if imperfectly. The original proposal essentially quashed the primary component, e.g. primary skill set bloat for non-combat primary guilds, but didn't do much of anything to address that secondary problem, and also significantly penalized the combat primary guilds because they were the most likely to rely heavily upon diversification in training to attenuate the difference in TDP generation from primary skill set skills.
There are several other issues (to include the difference in effort and risk and thus time involved in circling) that only further exacerbate the primary concern, and all of it adds up to, currently, at the very least a perceived gap. That's not a perception you want as a game designer, particularly if that perception is even a shadow of the truth.
As Vin has pointed out before, the issue is divisive, because people tend to feel their primary character is getting the short shrift no matter which side they're on. I happen to have characters on both sides of the issue and I perceive it to be real. Take from that what you will, but suffice it to say you're not going to change my mind, or the minds of several other players who've taken the time to really examine the issue from both sides.
As Obi-Wan Kenobi once pointed out, "you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
Matches up just fine with mine.
This is and has been the crux of the gap, perceived or real. There's another problem that hasn't really been hit upon yet (ignoring MO) but there's a finite limit on primary skill set skills for Barbarians and Paladins, since their primary skill sets revolve around combat, which require enablers that don't currently exist (i.e. higher level critters).
These are issues that the new TDP solution addresses squarely, if imperfectly. The original proposal essentially quashed the primary component, e.g. primary skill set bloat for non-combat primary guilds, but didn't do much of anything to address that secondary problem, and also significantly penalized the combat primary guilds because they were the most likely to rely heavily upon diversification in training to attenuate the difference in TDP generation from primary skill set skills.
There are several other issues (to include the difference in effort and risk and thus time involved in circling) that only further exacerbate the primary concern, and all of it adds up to, currently, at the very least a perceived gap. That's not a perception you want as a game designer, particularly if that perception is even a shadow of the truth.
As Vin has pointed out before, the issue is divisive, because people tend to feel their primary character is getting the short shrift no matter which side they're on. I happen to have characters on both sides of the issue and I perceive it to be real. Take from that what you will, but suffice it to say you're not going to change my mind, or the minds of several other players who've taken the time to really examine the issue from both sides.
As Obi-Wan Kenobi once pointed out, "you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
CRITTERDASLT
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 06:28 PM CST
I don't have access to the magic skillset and I'm not experiencing a lack of tdp's at all. I guess I can empathize that when leaving combat you suffer a tdp dropoff compared to an MU. Maybe a part of the issue is I spend probably 99% of my time attempting to train at the most efficient rate possible(combat), and maybe 1% socializing/causing a ruckus. If your ratio is more weighted towards the latter I could see magic being a boon.
Barb in combat- 7+ primary, 12 secondary, 3 tert. Thats
5 weapons, Mo, parry, evasion, perception, stalking, hiding, skinning, foraging, fa, 4 armors, shield, app, vocals, mech.
WM in combat- 5 primary, 9 secondaries, 12 tert. Thats
4 weapons, Mo, parry, evasion, perception, stalking, hiding, skinning, foraging, fa, 4 armors, shield, app, vocals, mech.
This has them using the same skills except the barb picks up another weapon while the mage does TM. The barbarian also has the advantage of advancing up the creature ladder(and maintaining optimum xp rates) at a secondary learning rate. The WM is stuck waiting on evasion/shield tertiary.
Out of combat I'd give the edge back to the WM. I just find it hard to believe most people spend more than 5% of their time socializing.
<<There are several other issues (to include the difference in effort and risk and thus time involved in circling) that only further exacerbate the primary concern, and all of it adds up to, currently, at the very least a perceived gap. That's not a perception you want as a game designer, particularly if that perception is even a shadow of the truth.
Everyone who wants to gain tdp's optimally needs to spend a gigantic majority of their time in combat. If the WM sits at the guild listening to classes while you're progressing up the creature ladder you will take a big dump on them, combat and tdp-wise.
Barb in combat- 7+ primary, 12 secondary, 3 tert. Thats
5 weapons, Mo, parry, evasion, perception, stalking, hiding, skinning, foraging, fa, 4 armors, shield, app, vocals, mech.
WM in combat- 5 primary, 9 secondaries, 12 tert. Thats
4 weapons, Mo, parry, evasion, perception, stalking, hiding, skinning, foraging, fa, 4 armors, shield, app, vocals, mech.
This has them using the same skills except the barb picks up another weapon while the mage does TM. The barbarian also has the advantage of advancing up the creature ladder(and maintaining optimum xp rates) at a secondary learning rate. The WM is stuck waiting on evasion/shield tertiary.
Out of combat I'd give the edge back to the WM. I just find it hard to believe most people spend more than 5% of their time socializing.
<<There are several other issues (to include the difference in effort and risk and thus time involved in circling) that only further exacerbate the primary concern, and all of it adds up to, currently, at the very least a perceived gap. That's not a perception you want as a game designer, particularly if that perception is even a shadow of the truth.
Everyone who wants to gain tdp's optimally needs to spend a gigantic majority of their time in combat. If the WM sits at the guild listening to classes while you're progressing up the creature ladder you will take a big dump on them, combat and tdp-wise.
CRITTERDASLT
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 06:30 PM CST
Actually the barb could probably grab 2 weapons while the mage does the 5 magic skills, I forgot about the RT involved in cambrinth
VEE-REX
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 06:36 PM CST
>>Out of combat I'd give the edge back to the WM. I just find it hard to believe most people spend more than 5% of their time socializing.
This is the whole thing in a nutshell right here. TF Barbs may not see any differences, nor would Prime Barbs that train 99-100% of the time.
But yes, some Barbs in Prime do like to socialize. Some like to RP. Some like to spar, etc... the list goes on. And I don't think they should be penalized for being anything other than combat script bots. Looks like the upcoming changes are fixing a lot of things at once.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
This is the whole thing in a nutshell right here. TF Barbs may not see any differences, nor would Prime Barbs that train 99-100% of the time.
But yes, some Barbs in Prime do like to socialize. Some like to RP. Some like to spar, etc... the list goes on. And I don't think they should be penalized for being anything other than combat script bots. Looks like the upcoming changes are fixing a lot of things at once.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
CRITTERDASLT
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 06:53 PM CST
I guess there would be an edge for the WM in that situation. I've always viewed out of combat reqs as a huge pain in the ass, not a benefit like Futility is portraying. Every time I used to have to exit combat to train locks/disarm/stealing I'd cry, and try to get back to combat as quickly as possible.
It's harder to make an out of combat skill list because you don't know if you have access to stealing/climbing/swimming.
barb- 0 primary,4 secondary, 3 tert foraging,perception, fa, 1 of stealing/climb/swim mech, vocals, app
wm- 4 primary, 3 secondary, 4 tert ^same as above
I'm making quite a few assumptions here, but if you assume you weight equally your out of combat, and in combat time. Addup my skill lists for in and out of combat it's:
barb 7-9 primary, 16 secondary, 6 tert
wm 9 primary, 12 secondary, 16 tert
I'm still just not seeing this huge training advantage.
It's harder to make an out of combat skill list because you don't know if you have access to stealing/climbing/swimming.
barb- 0 primary,4 secondary, 3 tert foraging,perception, fa, 1 of stealing/climb/swim mech, vocals, app
wm- 4 primary, 3 secondary, 4 tert ^same as above
I'm making quite a few assumptions here, but if you assume you weight equally your out of combat, and in combat time. Addup my skill lists for in and out of combat it's:
barb 7-9 primary, 16 secondary, 6 tert
wm 9 primary, 12 secondary, 16 tert
I'm still just not seeing this huge training advantage.
CRITTERDASLT
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 07:03 PM CST
<<Skill gain isn't just about TDPs, it's also about circling. Not entering combat at all minimizes your risks to just getting randomly killed, which is notably superior to crit-roulette at high levels of combat, which maximizes your learning time.
No. Combat is a vastly more efficient use of your time, death does not change that.
<<There's another problem that hasn't really been hit upon yet (ignoring MO) but there's a finite limit on primary skill set skills for Barbarians and Paladins, since their primary skill sets revolve around combat, which require enablers that don't currently exist (i.e. higher level critters).
Oh, and this is just nonsense and you know it. I don't think anyone has capped a single weapon in prime. Even had they, the possible tdp pool for weapons is immensely larger than it is for magic. Not even close.
<<I happen to have characters on both sides of the issue and I perceive it to be real. Take from that what you will, but suffice it to say you're not going to change my mind, or the minds of several other players who've taken the time to really examine the issue from both sides.
I'll admit I only have a 150th on the NMU side of the coin. The cleric I play is at 112th for now so I haven't fully examined it from that side.
No. Combat is a vastly more efficient use of your time, death does not change that.
<<There's another problem that hasn't really been hit upon yet (ignoring MO) but there's a finite limit on primary skill set skills for Barbarians and Paladins, since their primary skill sets revolve around combat, which require enablers that don't currently exist (i.e. higher level critters).
Oh, and this is just nonsense and you know it. I don't think anyone has capped a single weapon in prime. Even had they, the possible tdp pool for weapons is immensely larger than it is for magic. Not even close.
<<I happen to have characters on both sides of the issue and I perceive it to be real. Take from that what you will, but suffice it to say you're not going to change my mind, or the minds of several other players who've taken the time to really examine the issue from both sides.
I'll admit I only have a 150th on the NMU side of the coin. The cleric I play is at 112th for now so I haven't fully examined it from that side.
FUTILITY
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 10:39 PM CST
>>I guess there would be an edge for the WM in that situation. I've always viewed out of combat reqs as a huge pain in the ass, not a benefit like Futility is portraying. Every time I used to have to exit combat to train locks/disarm/stealing I'd cry, and try to get back to combat as quickly as possible.
I routinely duck out of combat on my Barbarian to lock up Survival skills, despite the fact that I don't need any Survival skills any more. It's a net positive gain TDP-wise to take 30 minutes to lock Stealing, Climbing, Swimming, Foraging, Vocals, and/or (sometimes) Perception. As long as no more than 3 weapons drain out during the course of it, you'll come out ahead.
I have never found a hunting area where 4 of the 6 are not trainable. Locks/disarm is a whole different beast and I happen to think that there is never going to be a happy solution to that problem, which is among the reasons I no longer play a Thief. Mech is a waste of time TDP-wise unless you're gaining it passively or simply want it (which is one of the biggest problems I foresee with the new crafting systems). I don't necessarily recommend running around with multiple bleeders to keep First Aid moving, but I often end up doing just that.
We're not arguing that combat is not fabulous for learning, but there's a world of difference between having a Barbarian's weapon requirements (or a Paladin's armor requirements) and the amount of time required to take risks to gain rewards and the amount of time and risks it takes for, in particular, magic primary guilds.
I have a 27th circle WM who has never fought anything harder than a field goblin, circa 1998.
I can't even begin to imagine that scenario applying to a Barbarian.
As I said before, you're not going to change my mind. If you're arguing for the sake of the audience, by all means, but please stop trying to prove I'm wrong when I've already stated it's a matter of perception.
I routinely duck out of combat on my Barbarian to lock up Survival skills, despite the fact that I don't need any Survival skills any more. It's a net positive gain TDP-wise to take 30 minutes to lock Stealing, Climbing, Swimming, Foraging, Vocals, and/or (sometimes) Perception. As long as no more than 3 weapons drain out during the course of it, you'll come out ahead.
I have never found a hunting area where 4 of the 6 are not trainable. Locks/disarm is a whole different beast and I happen to think that there is never going to be a happy solution to that problem, which is among the reasons I no longer play a Thief. Mech is a waste of time TDP-wise unless you're gaining it passively or simply want it (which is one of the biggest problems I foresee with the new crafting systems). I don't necessarily recommend running around with multiple bleeders to keep First Aid moving, but I often end up doing just that.
We're not arguing that combat is not fabulous for learning, but there's a world of difference between having a Barbarian's weapon requirements (or a Paladin's armor requirements) and the amount of time required to take risks to gain rewards and the amount of time and risks it takes for, in particular, magic primary guilds.
I have a 27th circle WM who has never fought anything harder than a field goblin, circa 1998.
I can't even begin to imagine that scenario applying to a Barbarian.
As I said before, you're not going to change my mind. If you're arguing for the sake of the audience, by all means, but please stop trying to prove I'm wrong when I've already stated it's a matter of perception.
BEVERAGEK
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 10:59 PM CST
Not that this applies to the current conversation going on or anything...
Person A says, "2 + 2 = 4! Get it right."
Person B says, "Actually, 2 + 2 = 5. It's all a matter of perspective."
In the above scenario Person B could technically be right, given that Person A's understanding of the math system is limited in some way that Person A cannot comprehend.
:)
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
Person A says, "2 + 2 = 4! Get it right."
Person B says, "Actually, 2 + 2 = 5. It's all a matter of perspective."
In the above scenario Person B could technically be right, given that Person A's understanding of the math system is limited in some way that Person A cannot comprehend.
:)
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
FUTILITY
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 11:06 PM CST
>>In the above scenario Person B could technically be right, given that Person A's understanding of the math system is limited in some way that Person A cannot comprehend.
Except that this discussion is calculus, and thus the definitive answer is not as simple as 2+2 and involves variables we can never find out.
For instance:
Ti + Ri = Re is the basic formula for how things should work. What we actually have is:
(Ti * 0.75) + (Ri * 0) = Re, and yet both equations come out to the same result. How can you possibly apply a solid valuation to Ti or Ri?
You can't, and thus it becomes a question of perception.
Except that this discussion is calculus, and thus the definitive answer is not as simple as 2+2 and involves variables we can never find out.
For instance:
Ti + Ri = Re is the basic formula for how things should work. What we actually have is:
(Ti * 0.75) + (Ri * 0) = Re, and yet both equations come out to the same result. How can you possibly apply a solid valuation to Ti or Ri?
You can't, and thus it becomes a question of perception.
TECHNOGEEK
Re: TDP Gap
01/06/2011 11:48 PM CST
I don't always agree with the way Futility puts things, but I have to agree with him here. Since death tracking started I have died 45 times training 7 of my top 8 skills. My very good WM friend not died once training any of her highest 7 (her highest is about to hit 500 at about 3 circles ahead of me and my highest is about to hit 320). Even though we train about the same number of skills (I train more survivals actively than her so the number evens out) she has more TDPs and much higher stats than I do even taking into account the circle TDPs and the skill gain TDPs between our circles. We're in the 75-80 circle range.
Another example is a cleric friend. Her stats are higher with approximately the same number of skills trained (she actually trains 2 more than me I believe), her highest are above 400, and she's a smaller circle than me.
If there's not a TDP gap then I've been doing something incredibly wrong. If there's no disparity, why does my WM friend have skills in the 500 range while mine are in the 300 range? Why does she have exactly 0 deaths from her top 7 while I have 45 from 7 of my top 8?
I'm not saying Futility is right and everyone on the other side of the fence is wrong. I'm saying that if he does happen to be wrong then I want to know what I'm doing wrong and how I can correct it.
I didn't put in their guilds to start a GvG war. I only did it to illustrate that they're both magic primary while I am not.
Another example is a cleric friend. Her stats are higher with approximately the same number of skills trained (she actually trains 2 more than me I believe), her highest are above 400, and she's a smaller circle than me.
If there's not a TDP gap then I've been doing something incredibly wrong. If there's no disparity, why does my WM friend have skills in the 500 range while mine are in the 300 range? Why does she have exactly 0 deaths from her top 7 while I have 45 from 7 of my top 8?
I'm not saying Futility is right and everyone on the other side of the fence is wrong. I'm saying that if he does happen to be wrong then I want to know what I'm doing wrong and how I can correct it.
I didn't put in their guilds to start a GvG war. I only did it to illustrate that they're both magic primary while I am not.
CRITTERDASLT
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 01:39 AM CST
So would the solution be something like dropping the barbarian reqs to 3-4 weapon ranks/circle and adding a ton of lore/survival requirements?
Even if they change the tdp formula barbarians are always going to be higher on the critter level by circle than anyone else without a requirements change. I wouldn't be against hamstringing barbs with a big mech/athletics requirement or something if that's what we're angling for. I prefer combat, but there could be a niche for crafting barbarians in the guild.
It would definitely enable ya'll to sit out of combat and train safely and those people that want to stay in combat could pursue that path.
Even if they change the tdp formula barbarians are always going to be higher on the critter level by circle than anyone else without a requirements change. I wouldn't be against hamstringing barbs with a big mech/athletics requirement or something if that's what we're angling for. I prefer combat, but there could be a niche for crafting barbarians in the guild.
It would definitely enable ya'll to sit out of combat and train safely and those people that want to stay in combat could pursue that path.
FUTILITY
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 01:48 AM CST
>>It would definitely enable ya'll to sit out of combat and train safely and those people that want to stay in combat could pursue that path.
Strawman.
The point here is that all training actions should deliver reward equal to the risk incurred during training. For instance, learning Sorcery should be easy, because it's also easy to die doing Sorcery. Learning primary magic should be hard, since it's very hard to die doing primary magic.
This does several things: one, it encourages most everyone to go hunting, and two, it puts the risk back in the equation for reward, which means that it's not so skewed. Finally, it makes it almost impossible to learn skills past critter caps, putting everyone on the same footing.
Is it contextually possible? Yes. Would it be a lot of hard work for the development team? Yes. Would it be worth it? Depends greatly on your own point of view.
Strawman.
The point here is that all training actions should deliver reward equal to the risk incurred during training. For instance, learning Sorcery should be easy, because it's also easy to die doing Sorcery. Learning primary magic should be hard, since it's very hard to die doing primary magic.
This does several things: one, it encourages most everyone to go hunting, and two, it puts the risk back in the equation for reward, which means that it's not so skewed. Finally, it makes it almost impossible to learn skills past critter caps, putting everyone on the same footing.
Is it contextually possible? Yes. Would it be a lot of hard work for the development team? Yes. Would it be worth it? Depends greatly on your own point of view.
CRITTERDASLT
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 02:53 AM CST
Combat poses the most 'risk' in that every couple days your script will need to hit 'depart items'. Combat also yields the most efficient rank/tdp gain per unit of your time. Is that what you're shooting for?
DEVAN
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 03:12 AM CST
>>Learning primary magic should be hard, since it's very hard to die doing primary magic.
Alternatively, the best way to learn any skill should be like hunting: limited by widget availability, bracketed in ranges, threaten field experience loss upon critical failures, and functional for groups.
Thus, magic should be learned in laboratories.
Yes, that would screw Thieves.
Alternatively, the best way to learn any skill should be like hunting: limited by widget availability, bracketed in ranges, threaten field experience loss upon critical failures, and functional for groups.
Thus, magic should be learned in laboratories.
Yes, that would screw Thieves.
PENDUS
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 06:36 AM CST
>>If there's not a TDP gap then I've been doing something incredibly wrong. If there's no disparity, why does my WM friend have skills in the 500 range while mine are in the 300 range? Why does she have exactly 0 deaths from her top 7 while I have 45 from 7 of my top 8?<<
My guess is the GMs look at it per circle and see that it's close. But it also depends on how the mage trains. If they train just to circle, the barb will have better tdp generation. If the mage trains more like a barb with magic thrown in, they will blow the barb out of the water.
My guess is the GMs look at it per circle and see that it's close. But it also depends on how the mage trains. If they train just to circle, the barb will have better tdp generation. If the mage trains more like a barb with magic thrown in, they will blow the barb out of the water.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 07:17 AM CST
>>It would definitely enable ya'll to sit out of combat and train safely and those people that want to stay in combat could pursue that path.
You're citing skills that aren't trainable in combat. We would need skills that were both trainable in and out of combat to make it even.
I do believe there is a gap because if you have a skill where you can train every waking moment IG it's going to be scaling way faster than those that can't be trained all the time. It's pretty much as simple as that IMO, higher skills grant way more TDPs per rank. (yes they take longer to rank but I believe the TDP generation of the higher skill outpaces the time increases).
I don't really think it's a huge problem, because currently there is things you can do to offset it (ie train a couple armors etc). However the TDP changes inbound will make it much harder to keep up IMO as any skills you train to close the gap earn half as much TDPs.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
You're citing skills that aren't trainable in combat. We would need skills that were both trainable in and out of combat to make it even.
I do believe there is a gap because if you have a skill where you can train every waking moment IG it's going to be scaling way faster than those that can't be trained all the time. It's pretty much as simple as that IMO, higher skills grant way more TDPs per rank. (yes they take longer to rank but I believe the TDP generation of the higher skill outpaces the time increases).
I don't really think it's a huge problem, because currently there is things you can do to offset it (ie train a couple armors etc). However the TDP changes inbound will make it much harder to keep up IMO as any skills you train to close the gap earn half as much TDPs.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
TYCH
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 07:49 AM CST
<<If the mage trains more like a barb with magic thrown in, they will blow the barb out of the water.
This. I train my moonie like I train my barb and circle for circle my moonie will kick Drevid's butt.
Player of Drevid and Jhaval
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. --John Wayne
This. I train my moonie like I train my barb and circle for circle my moonie will kick Drevid's butt.
Player of Drevid and Jhaval
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. --John Wayne
FUTILITY
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 09:50 AM CST
>>Alternatively, the best way to learn any skill should be like hunting: limited by widget availability, bracketed in ranges, threaten field experience loss upon critical failures, and functional for groups.
Not necessarily. Perhaps it should be pointed out that simply providing a specific task that involves a commensurate amount of risk to learn magic skills after a point is the solution.
>>Thus, magic should be learned in laboratories.
Or in combat, which should, in all fairness, teach magic as well as it does currently, since it has equivalent risk involved.
>>Yes, that would screw Thieves.
I'm not seeing it. Stealing has inherent risk. Boxes have inherent risk. The only really sticky part of their training regimen is Mech Lore, which sucks no matter how you slice it, and I'm expecting their Mech Lore requirement to just be dropped, and Thieves who choose to create get to do so with all the benefits of being Lore secondary.
Honestly, the downsides of crafting unto itself (essentially only being able to learn one skill at a time, teaching aside) are significant enough that minor financial loss (from failed attempts) seems adequate.
This leaves Survival as the odd man out, which really just means that chances of falling to your death/drowning (Athletics), getting bitten by a centipede/a mining mishap (Outdoorsmanship), and the like need to be added to the system. All in all it would make Survival a more compelling skill set.
Not necessarily. Perhaps it should be pointed out that simply providing a specific task that involves a commensurate amount of risk to learn magic skills after a point is the solution.
>>Thus, magic should be learned in laboratories.
Or in combat, which should, in all fairness, teach magic as well as it does currently, since it has equivalent risk involved.
>>Yes, that would screw Thieves.
I'm not seeing it. Stealing has inherent risk. Boxes have inherent risk. The only really sticky part of their training regimen is Mech Lore, which sucks no matter how you slice it, and I'm expecting their Mech Lore requirement to just be dropped, and Thieves who choose to create get to do so with all the benefits of being Lore secondary.
Honestly, the downsides of crafting unto itself (essentially only being able to learn one skill at a time, teaching aside) are significant enough that minor financial loss (from failed attempts) seems adequate.
This leaves Survival as the odd man out, which really just means that chances of falling to your death/drowning (Athletics), getting bitten by a centipede/a mining mishap (Outdoorsmanship), and the like need to be added to the system. All in all it would make Survival a more compelling skill set.
DEVAN
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 11:37 AM CST
>>I'm not seeing it.
Thieves can train magic. If magic were near-untrainable without the hand-wave of laboratories, they would lose that ability and consequently be unable to SURPRISE LIGHTNING BOLT.
>>Honestly, the downsides of crafting unto itself (essentially only being able to learn one skill at a time, teaching aside) are significant enough that minor financial loss (from failed attempts) seems adequate.
Well, field experience is what people seem to care about in this thread, so field experience is what I used. It doesn't have to be death, though that sort of makes sense with the Survival skills, but a critical failure (like failing to retreat when you're overwhelmed) should have roughly the same consequence.
Of course, death also has a potential-to-real financial loss associated, too. "Significant" is anyone's guess. I haven't heard anyone whine about losing money when dying in forever.
Honestly figuring out the minutiae of designing grinds is possibly my least favorite thing in the world. Makes me feel like I'm building a soul-crushing corporation in a noir film.
Thieves can train magic. If magic were near-untrainable without the hand-wave of laboratories, they would lose that ability and consequently be unable to SURPRISE LIGHTNING BOLT.
>>Honestly, the downsides of crafting unto itself (essentially only being able to learn one skill at a time, teaching aside) are significant enough that minor financial loss (from failed attempts) seems adequate.
Well, field experience is what people seem to care about in this thread, so field experience is what I used. It doesn't have to be death, though that sort of makes sense with the Survival skills, but a critical failure (like failing to retreat when you're overwhelmed) should have roughly the same consequence.
Of course, death also has a potential-to-real financial loss associated, too. "Significant" is anyone's guess. I haven't heard anyone whine about losing money when dying in forever.
Honestly figuring out the minutiae of designing grinds is possibly my least favorite thing in the world. Makes me feel like I'm building a soul-crushing corporation in a noir film.
CRITTERDASLT
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 12:43 PM CST
Yeah lets add open-roll crits into survival, and lore. Then nerf combat so it's not the premiere training method, this sounds like a blast. I'm sure the first time you roll a 1 and accidentally stab a pestle into your eyeball will be funny, but 10 times later...probably not so much.
FUTILITY
Re: TDP Gap
01/07/2011 08:37 PM CST
>>Yeah lets add open-roll crits into survival, and lore. Then nerf combat so it's not the premiere training method, this sounds like a blast. I'm sure the first time you roll a 1 and accidentally stab a pestle into your eyeball will be funny, but 10 times later...probably not so much.
Don't be obtuse. Dying out of combat would be as annoying as dying in combat, that's a fact.
I also doubt that stabbing yourself in the eye with a pestle would be fatal unless you were mixing highly toxic substances like poison. Which, I suppose it's worth adding, is part of the creation system, which has its own inherent risks (loss of monies, materials, time).
As far as Thieves "training magic," so can Barbarians and Traders, but that doesn't really mean the methodology is viable or sustainable. Thieves, like Barbarians, will simply learn magic by having abilities up.
Don't be obtuse. Dying out of combat would be as annoying as dying in combat, that's a fact.
I also doubt that stabbing yourself in the eye with a pestle would be fatal unless you were mixing highly toxic substances like poison. Which, I suppose it's worth adding, is part of the creation system, which has its own inherent risks (loss of monies, materials, time).
As far as Thieves "training magic," so can Barbarians and Traders, but that doesn't really mean the methodology is viable or sustainable. Thieves, like Barbarians, will simply learn magic by having abilities up.
