> Unless you make it account wide

That is an option worth considering. Maybe basic gets one character per account per day. Premium gets two.

> Rested XP isn't going to stop AFK scripting and per Lyneya it's not meant to.

But it could. Maybe it should.

>> People play for different reasons and you can't force interaction.

Sure, but I don't go join a football team and then demand that the refs should allow me to run in and out of bounds because that's "how I want to play."

The rules of the game are pretty clearly defined.

If I go and play for a scholarship, while this over here thinks he has a career in the NFL, and that guy over there just wants to be surrounded by other men in spandex, THAT is playing for different reasons. Playing by different rule sets is something else entirely. And this isn't a case of "the rules don't say I can't" because they clearly do say "you can't."

Sure, you can't force interaction, it's built in. You can interact with me when I'm around, if you can get my interest. If I'm idling AFK, you can still interact with me - because that's built into the mechanics of the game - but I'll be unresponsive. I suspect is that what you meant is that you can't force interest in engagement. No one wants to. That's another one of those "unreasonable expectations on peoples time" things. But if you're logged in and active, it is a reasonable expectation that you be present - because that's the rule of the game.

>>Sure, but I don't go join a football team and then demand that the refs should allow me to run in and out of bounds because that's "how I want to play."

>>The rules of the game are pretty clearly defined.

>>If I go and play for a scholarship, while this over here thinks he has a career in the NFL, and that guy over there just wants to be surrounded by other men in spandex, THAT is playing for different reasons. Playing by different rule sets is something else entirely. And this isn't a case of "the rules don't say I can't" because they clearly do say "you can't."

>>Sure, you can't force interaction, it's built in. You can interact with me when I'm around, if you can get my interest. If I'm idling AFK, you can still interact with me - because that's built into the mechanics of the game - but I'll be unresponsive. I suspect is that what you meant is that you can't force interest in engagement. No one wants to. That's another one of those "unreasonable expectations on peoples time" things. But if you're logged in and active, it is a reasonable expectation that you be present - because that's the rule of the game.

I think there is some confusion here because I'm sort of talking about two things here.

1.) AFK scripting. Yes it's against the rules and I'm not trying to condone it. I primarily play TF for a reason. These experience changes aren't going to do anything to change the mindset though, just alter it.

2.) Players that don't RP and just want to advance their character. It is fully within the rules of the game to play and never talk to anyone, never have any sort of interaction, and I do mean interaction. You can interact with me but there's nothing forcing me to interact with you and limiting the time in which you can gain experience isn't going to all of a sudden make these types of players want to run to town and start RPing. If I only played prime and I was suddenly limited to 4 hours a day of experience gain, even if I was going to get a full days worth of experience in that time, I'm not sure I'd stay subbed.

>Bit for those of you who say that you script but yet the penalties are too harsh? Let me ask you this.. you get caught doing 80 in a 55 zone, you gonna go complain the the judge that you shouldnt be punished because the cops singled you out of the pack? That you shouldnt have your license removed (temporary in most cases) for a month?

Problem now is that enforcement now isn't graduated. To use your metaphor, the penalty for going 60 in a 55 is the same as 80 in a 55 and is the same as going 120 in a 55.

>Do you like breaking laws? Rules & Regulations? Would you think nothing of breaking workplace safety rules? You dont wear a hardhat but you get smashed in the head & die so your family is without you?

This is a red herring. Strict enforcement of wearing a hardhat is important because you can actually just die. The policy we're discussion isn't anything like it.

You're right that rules exist and we all inherently agree to them when we play the game. But it doesn't mean that the rules should remain as they are forever, until the end of time, simply because they're the rules. To go back to your driving analogy, speed limits are set for numerous reasons but as cars have improved, speed limits have also increased. The point is, rules should reflect the reality they exist in. To simply say that the rule exists and so it cannot be questioned is not constructive.

>I report folks for scripting junkily, if you junk up a room with rocks, keep dropping them until you cant forage anymore but still keep trying every 15 seconds then yup, I have reported you. If you are sitting there looking at your crystal but not bothering me then guess what, you probably arent going to be reported as I'm not being bothered.

This is what I see as a happy middle ground for the future of DR - that it be focused on disruptive behavior, not focused on AFK-or-not. Actual policy could/should be more nuanced than that general statement, but we want the policy to reasonably reflect the reality of the situation.

>> 1.) AFK scripting. Yes it's against the rules and I'm not trying to condone it. I primarily play TF for a reason. These experience changes aren't going to do anything to change the mindset though, just alter it.

This is why I said the problem boils down to two things. The first being an unreasonable expectation on peoples time, and the second being about reducing punishment.

GMs watch problem players. I know because I am one, or at least was one. Am I targeted? Do an extent I expect so. I have no doubt that GMs have occasionally popped over to see what I'm up to. Not randomly, but because of who I am. But that's not unfair because my behavior is an entirely reasonable concern. I live with the doom of Damocles, and I don't think that's unfair. I may not be happy about it, but I do understand it. But I'm readily responsive, or inactive if I can't be. Any time a GM/GH has come to me and I've been unresponsive, I've also not been scripting. And every time, I got "assist again/report when you're back" and no animosity or punishment for it. Every time they've tried to contact me when I'm scripting, I'm present!

The unreasonable expectation is that they should be script checking everyone logged in, or spend some inordinate amount of time going through the WHO list and script checking. The impression I get is that something prompts a script check. Either a player reports it, or you do something that flags the system that you're scripting. Perhaps as a problem player you're (generic you) in their rounds to check on and they see you repeating the same action endlessly so decide to script check you. If your PO stops by to check on you while you're on house arrest. but you're out at the liquor store, are you being unfairly targeted and punished for breaking the rules?

And it could be some player, too, reporting you and prompting the script checks. People were so upset about afk scripting they sifted through and counted the number of deaths for multiple people over the course of HE to email a complaint about the obvious snake pit bots. It could easily be another player prompting the script checks through reports. And even if that were the case, I don't think they'd tell you.

>> 2.) Players that don't RP and just want to advance their character. It is fully within the rules of the game to play and never talk to anyone, never have any sort of interaction, and I do mean interaction. You can interact with me but there's nothing forcing me to interact with you and limiting the time in which you can gain experience isn't going to all of a sudden make these types of players want to run to town and start RPing. If I only played prime and I was suddenly limited to 4 hours a day of experience gain, even if I was going to get a full days worth of experience in that time, I'm not sure I'd stay subbed.

If you're committed to meaning interact, then there's not really a choice. If you're logged in, you can be interacted with. Absolutely true that no one can force you to interact with them, but in order to put a stop to them interacting with you, you have to interact via either WARN or REPORT at bare minimum. If I find you're a juicy mark wandering around with a couple hundred plat at the same time every day and decide to swing by for my daily tax collection, "but I didn't want to interact" just makes you a better target because you'd rather let it go than even say "stop breh." I've seen people complain that they're being harassed because someone keeps stealing from them, but they stand around on the streets of Crossing with no perception and hundreds of plats to be liberated.

Without offering any direct critique of the AFK policy -- I would like to at least focus on the behavioral mechanics and consequences (both intended and unintended) of the current enforcement model. I agree strongly with Saragos, Sassersass, and Tev regarding the fundamental view of overall policy - long-term AFK scripting is inherently detrimental to the game environment. However, the current enforcement mechanics of policy is not nudging the entirety of the player base toward the desired outcome (reduction in AFK scripting). Instead, it's delineating players and breeding resentment, while some players focus on skirting it as much as they can to the detriment of both the economy and other players.

The fundamental problem with current AFK scripting enforcement is that it is, in practice, similar to speed limit enforcement. AFK scripting gets you to your goals faster, enforcement can't possibly catch everyone, and the enforcement is entirely focused on punishment rather than prevention. However, the enforcement does nothing to discourage further AFK scripting other than the perceived fear of getting caught -- which just discourages getting caught again. In fact, because rank penalties are so severe at the high end, it psychologically provides motivation to do it further, while also breeding resentment toward the game (and staff). A hypothetical question -- what percentage of people have stopped speeding completely after getting a ticket?

There's a second element in enforcement that is problematic: the deliberate development of things that frustrate users of advanced front ends (i.e. making mappers unusable in specific rooms). Again, that's punitive, and ineffective -- anything, given enough thought, can be scripted, and scripts, once shared, cannot get put back into the bag. In short, the only people that are set back are the people who are not the ones exploiting high-level functionality of front ends with the intent to exploit the lack of staffing to consistently enforce AFK scripting policy.

Secondly, there's minimal positive to not AFK scripting, other than having a clean conscience and having a higher chance of "positive" interactions with other players.

Pulling from behaviorist theory, Skinner was very clear -- if you want to encourage a behavior, reward it heavily. However, if you want to reduce the behavior, you need to strengthen avoidant behavior without punishment. Punishment leads to unintended consequences -- namely, avoidant behavior that figures out how to still cheat the system, but avoid getting caught; similarly, it also breeds adversity against the system itself.

Similarly, the game is structured to reward extended play -- especially AFK play -- via treasure and experience. Simply the perception that other players are successfully AFK scripting without checks is enough to increase either the likelihood that any given player is going to AFK script, but also the likelihood that an attempt at punishment would result in an unintended outcome. I see the same drivers violating HOV laws every day on the way to work, and am absolutely certain they are violating, but they keep getting further and further ahead -- which has taught me the points where enforcement is impractical, and has absolutely given me the knowledge and expertise I would need to get away with violating if I wanted to risk the $400 HOV violation ticket on any given day. It's bred resentment, not only toward those drivers, but also the system that allows the exact same drivers to cheat the system day in and day out. Had the Department of Transportation instituted a camera system that checks the number of passengers in cars, I would be satisfied that the system was working -- and quite a few of them would stop violating HOV laws. There's a video clip I find helpful in demonstrating the negative outcomes of perceived (or actual) unfairness when I'm training professionals new to working with clients -- specifically, from a study conducted by Frans de Waal on primates. The video itself is far from comprehensive, but it is a very clear demonstration of the dissent it breeds. You can find the short video here: https://youtu.be/-KSryJXDpZo

Changing the psychological motivation therefore requires a number of steps - a combination of both positive and negative reinforcement, without severe punitive action, and with a clear, visible, systemic fairness. Effectively solving the psychological motivation for AFK scripting needs to focus on incentivizing not being AFK, but also make scripting for extended periods less and less effective. There are a few ways I see an actual solution presenting itself:

1) Make AFK scripting in excess of what is reasonable significantly less effective than playing "legitimately" - not only in terms of learning, but treasure generation. Bring back Mind Murk in some form, but make Sleep either not count or not be a simple toggle that can be thrown into a script once you pulse down. Hunting for more than a few hours consecutively should reduce loot drops. Similarly -- the longer we're online within a 24 hour period, the exponentially lower the "cap" of XP should be before a specific character gets Mind Murk-y. Perhaps have Sleep increase the cap of XP allowed for every 30 minutes it remains engaged, but it should not be something that's easily ignored via a combination of favor orbs and the Sleep command.

2) Positively reinforce "positive" behavior. Liberally hand out RPAs. Encourage active roleplaying with titles and items that are not attainable otherwise (seriously, the Necrotitles Jeihrem handed out were so extremely cool). Give more GM-independent non-scriptable fun (i.e. treasure maps). Find a way to have players start a game of Sharks and Guppies. Periodically announce things via the Real Gem system and offer clues. Outsource translation and alteration ideas to the player base. Encourage us to interact in ways that aren't focused on either events or the gweth.

3) Rested XP to mitigate the perception of alts as something penalizing the progression on your main. We shouldn't need a stable of F2P alts just to experience some of the cool class features. Someone with a Premium sub should at least be able to keep alts on-par with where one would with an F2P alt account given the same quantity of work.

But, on the same note: The current potentialities of punishment only appear to be breeding resentment, making certain players feel like they're further behind, and there is no possibility of "catching up." A more in-tune corrective action would make the behavior itself ineffective for the near-future while encouraging the player to go do something else within the game that's fun and not productive.

When a player is caught -- don't inflict severe and permanent punishment. Yes, I understand that Blizzard perma-bans people using bots, but they don't prevent people from making a new account and catching up in a month, since there's a fairly low threshold to hit the level (and progression) cap. Similarly, Square-Enix primarily focuses on temporary bans (3-5 days) for botting. The bulk of the MMO industry has embraced the idea of temporary bans as a deterrent. However, are they truly a deterrent? From what I've seen, botters hop from account to account, focused on how they can skirt the policy as much as they can, while avoiding spending real money on account they know is "at risk."

The better outcome would be to suppress the behavior while continuing to allow non-disruptive engagement. An example would be a temporary (3 days-1 week) loss of drain, followed by a probationary period of subscribed time required to earn offline drain, rested XP, and similar benefits. Encourage us to be involved with other players in a positive manner. Manually set us to the equivalent of F2P status with a way to earn it off. Get us to continue being engaged, but focus on the behavior you want us to engage in. And, more importantly, reward non-scripting activity while making the system make it inconvenient to remain AFK for extended periods of time.

Of course, some of these will require much more work than others, and this was not intended to be a comprehensive guide to preventing AFK scripting -- but, hopefully, something worthwhile can be gleaned to inform the direction of policy enforcement and future development. Simply: reward "good" behavior liberally, and make "negative" behavior inconvenient without a punitive focus, and you should theoretically see significant reduction in AFK scripting.

---

"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer

"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh

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Helje
DragonRealms Senior Board Moderator

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Helje
DragonRealms Senior Board Moderator

yea it is very sad every chat in discord has received my post that was removed my voice is always heard. So you basically did nothing by removing my post except make yourselves look like you are trying to hide a problem.

" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "

When I write a post to try to clarify "This is a thing, and it has been a thing, and it is going to continue to be a thing, and here are some things about the thing." and I clarify that it being a thing is not up for debate,

and people dive on that and debate, you're headed off trail. When you hang out in the off-trail areas and post things that wouldn't be allowed in other threads, yeah, they're going to get pulled. At this point, my bandwidth is such that I can skim your posts for things that definitely need to go, but the debate is not getting anywhere near my full attention.

When the policy rewrite happens, this will still be a thing. Consequences might change, but it is still going to be a thing.

We made a whole instance where unattended scripting is fine. I pop in there from time to time and chat and hang out and make sure things aren't too broken. There are some good folks there who will be more likely to help you out than shank you. They might not arrpee with you much, but they're generally not out to make anyone else miserable for no reason.

If you can post things here in the Equine Cemetery that are within boards policy, you are free to continue the debate.

If you post things here that are badmouthing the company or staff (by name or alluded to), or any of the other things that wouldn't be allowed in another folder... this thread will close here, too and the posts will be hidden.

I'll keep skimming for things that need pulling and hoping not to find any. When we have enough people on staff that we can review policy and come up with something that isn't a joke before we write it because we have nobody to teach it and work with it and apply it when needed, I might look in this thread for other ideas about consequences.

Iocanthe
Doing stuff

>This is how a parent lectures a child, not how a company representative should speak to a customer.

Or perhaps adults who are behaving childishly.

>You obviously do not want feedback.

At some point, it stops being feedback. In fact, players are almost universally bad at giving feedback. The GMs have aknowledged that DR has problems. Pounding and screaming that they're not doing it right this second...isn't helping.

Vote with your wallet. Stop paying for DR. If you're running 500 F2P bots, then...stop. Otherwise vocal minority, etc.

>In fact, players are almost universally bad at giving feedback.

Where else should feedback be coming from?

>and people dive on that and debate<

It was not even a debate it was a universal understanding that it needs to change or DR loses all their player base and money. I mean come on. It only takes so much before the game is ruined and it has been decline for a year or two now. How long before it gets snuffed out? I want to see the game thrive and our player base be strong not bans and exp hits. There is another way and I understand bans for some things like dj anton etc. But not for long term players who matter and have a big influence on the game and the people in it. That is a huge mistake. If your going to do the lockout route which I've heard is what is going to happen you will regret it, If you lessen the penalties for afking to other possibilities like f2p drain in increasing increments or some other enforcement that doesn't cause people to quit the game or stop giving you money I'd be on board. I'm just trying to save the majority of the player base here this isnt a minority that believes in this everyone wants a change. I mean this isn't even just on forums this is all over chats and DM's in discord everyone is pissed off.


" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "

If a man stands in a city, he'll hear city noises.

If a man stands in a forest, he'll hear forest noises.

While the consequences may someday change, there will always be consequences for unattended scripting when a person is caught in Prime or Plat. No matter what the consequences change to, they won't be any more popular or pleasant than what we had before or what we have now, and at least one person is going to sound the alarm that surely this will end the world. The point in corrective measures for unacceptable behaviour is to make it more attractive to change the behaviour, yanno?

Iocanthe
Doing stuff

>Do you have stats on how many people change their behavior by quitting this game entirely after losing 25-50% of their skills, because I'm guessing these measures are more punitive than they are "corrective".<

yea show me the stats I know over 50 accounts who have unsubbed and gone f2p do to this. That's just what I know. A gm told me recently Let's be realistic Fahijeck how many people have you made quit dr. My answer is zero. If I asked the same person how many people he made quit and lost simu money the answer would be a lot. Bottom line customers are not the problem in this situation.

" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "

>>We made a whole instance where unattended scripting is fine. I pop in there from time to time and chat and hang out and make sure things aren't too broken. There are some good folks there who will be more likely to help you out than shank you. They might not arrpee with you much, but they're generally not out to make anyone else miserable for no reason.

I have absolutely no doubt that almost everyone who is currently AFK scripting in TF is engaged in much the same in Prime via F2P accounts. TF was an excellent proving ground for building scripts that manage themselves and virtually everyone who successfully did so there brought them back to Prime. Where they became some of the biggest AFK scripters and problem players. Seems like a win-win for everyone.

Worse, TF is an excellent crystallization of the whole "if you want nice things pay us for them up front" mentality that continues to lose you subscribers. The rationalization is that if I'm just going to pay for those nice things (via microtrans) I might as well save my money and use it for microtrans.

>>I'll keep skimming for things that need pulling and hoping not to find any. When we have enough people on staff that we can review policy and come up with something that isn't a joke before we write it because we have nobody to teach it and work with it and apply it when needed, I might look in this thread for other ideas about consequences.

This is fundamentally the wrong approach to take with regards to drafting a policy and I'm not sure how many times "Look at how GS did it" needs to be said before it sinks in that GS does not have the problems DR has precisely because it is not managed the way DR is.

>>I'll keep skimming for things that need pulling and hoping not to find any.

You wonder why people stop posting on these forums? Wonder no more. When the best you can expect is for your account to be flagged for trying to help why bother?

>>This is how a parent lectures a child, not how a company representative should speak to a customer. You obviously do not want feedback. We get that. As customers, we're still giving it to you anyway. You could have chosen to just ignore it, but instead you had to insist on making a point of ignoring it. There is absolutely nothing we can do about that except for voting with our wallets, which many who have gone full F2P have already done.

Deserves to be footstomped.

>>Or perhaps adults who are behaving childishly.

If you can't handle criticism constructively, perhaps you should not be in a position to receive any.

>>At some point, it stops being feedback. In fact, players are almost universally bad at giving feedback.

This is not true. This is a terrible attitude to take. What you've said is, practically verbatim: "criticism is only constructive if I say it's constructive and I don't like criticism so none of it is."

>>Vote with your wallet. Stop paying for DR. If you're running 500 F2P bots, then...stop. Otherwise vocal minority, etc.

Most people have. "People who have downsized from multiple subscriptions to a single one and several f2p accounts" is a large enough cross-section of the playerbase that it needs representing in the community focus group, per Lyneya. If you think threads like this aren't going to accelerate that, and thus the cash bleed for DR, I honestly don't think you're a part of the discussion.

>>I already have, actually. I shut down 2 accounts today and didn't re-activate the 3rd I was considering. Games are supposed to be fun, and I worry about being targeted in game because a community "manager" doesn't like what I say on the forums. There are better ways to spend my money.

Again, this. So much this.

I haven't logged in since HE ended. I'm honestly not sure if I will. After several weeks of having a reason to hang out with people and socialize going back to DR's regular grind isn't that appealing.

This thread is closed. Further posts will be hidden.

Helje
DragonRealms Senior Board Moderator