CATHLULU2
Current state of PVP and Barriers
02/21/2022 10:00 AM CST
I recently saw a post on DR discord and it just cemented on what a horrible state DR pvp is in. First lets look at the recap of this particular's players views. I should also point out this player has spent a significant amount of money on buying and kitting his characters. I say that because it shows direct motive in wanting to keep power. GM's should not be relying on player feedback to balance PVP because it has been and always will be completely biased. As one of the handful of players that PVP weekly/daily please gms... PLEASE test the balance in DR yourselfs and stop listening to biased players who will only give you half truths.
<Breakdown:
<Barbarians - N/A ( do they not have barriers? Why is this ignored in the "analysis" )
<Bards - NAME + MAF is potent and can serve as the primary ward set instead of relying on IC. Wooo!
<Cleric - jury is still out
<Empaths - N/A
<MM (no WD) ( LOL WD and contingency should absolutely factor into their barrier power ) - No combination of COL, TKSH, and MAF let me survive the initial and follow-up debilitation. When Burn, Lightning Bolt, AE, ACM (read: any weapon user), etc... are chunking you for 15-25% vitality per hit, you die <almost immediately.
<Necromancers - I don't PvP with one. I haven't seen a lot of Necro PvP lately. Jury is still out.
<Paladins - TK + AA/MAF is potent and can serve as the primary ward set instead of relying on IC. Wooo!
<Rangers - No combination of RITS, BT, and MAF let me survive the initial and follow-up debilitation. When Burn, Lightning Bolt, AE, ACM (read: any weapon user), etc... are chunking you for 15-25% vitality per hit, you die almost immediately.
<Thieves - N/A ( Do they not have barriers? Why is this ignored in the "analysis" )
<Traders - No combination of TRC, ELI, and MAF let me survive the initial and follow-up debilitation. When Burn, Lightning Bolt, AE, ACM (read: any weapon user), etc... are chunking you for 15-25% vitality per hit, you die almost immediately.
<Warrior Mages - No combination of GI, ES, and MAF let me survive the initial and follow-up debilitation. When Burn, Lightning Bolt, AE, ACM (read: any weapon user), etc... are chunking you for 15-25% vitality per hit, you die almost immediately.
<Summary:
<- Three guilds (Bards, Empaths, and Paladins) are in a known "good spot" with their native reactors post-review
<- Two guilds (Clerics and Necromancers) are in an unknown spot with their native reactors post-review
<- Four guilds are in a known "bad spot" with their native reactors post-review>>
Pretty convenient barbs and thieves were left off the list...
First off. IC should not be used as the baseline point. The fact that all damage from all guilds and every offense in the game is reduced to the same flat amount removes all flavor from guilds. Any guild not developed out for this meta suffers tremendously. Example, why would I spend 15 seconds targeting an area spell when I could do 10x the damage buy just feinting a store bought weapon? Why aim even think about using a bow or crossbow in pvp? They are completely useless.
Have you watched the bardarians vs the raven fights? It shows how hilariously broken DR pvp is. 5 level 200th 70k characters cannot kill 1 character before disablers wear off so they just run off and heal. 30 minutes of battle and not 1 death. The only way anyone can die in DR pvp is if they want to or if they are caught unbuffed. Ok so why is this a problem?
There is no strategy involved. Those with more people on one side win. You add empaths healing to the picture and it's just a hour of papercuts that lead to nowhere.
Simply put it's incredibly boring. Every guild doing the exact same thing with just a variance of messaging is dull. Most guild advantages are muted or completely gone with the exception of very few. However, those few are significant advantages with completely break the current meta of DR.
Barbarians - Can have extreme damage resistance, extreme damage output, and extreme magic resistance all at the same time. The only counter to this is 1. run 2. outlive a character that can survive death blows for MINUTES before needing to worry about it.
They have the absolute best skill set in the game. They now have the best defense ( and its not even close ) in the game. And thanks to the ACM buffs, they now have the best offense in the game. Where is the weakness? Where is the counter play? My barb can stand around in full zerks and forms and not have to worry about inner fire for far far too long.
Their kit has everything you would ever need and yet.... they still keep getting buffed...
Moon mages - Get all the benefits from the IC meta + the benefit of being immune from disablers & melee combat while any moon is up. Contingency and whole displacement removed melee combat and remove you from combat the moment you are disabled.... So with IC currently it takes 20 hits to drop someone from 100 to 0% vitality. Doesn't matter from where, on average any hit regardless if its a backstab, ACM, or a feint from a store bought weapon caps out at 5-7% vitality. It takes on average 20 hits to win against IC. Thats usually 2 full disablers worth. How can you possible win against a guild who gets teleported across the world the instant they are disabled? Do you not see the problem?
Second issue with moon mages. They are one of the few guilds that is not forced to split their stats. They can focus all intel and with that have access to one of the best disablers in the game + rend. Rend will allow the moon mage to fully strip off ALL buffs within 8 seconds. This forces all magic using guild to have to spend most of their stats on discipline for the sole purpose of not getting dispelled. Can't focus reflex, cant focus disabler stats, just have to focus discipline or else its an auto loss.
Third issue with moon mages + anyone using the unleashed tattoo. Unlimited access and potential to have every castable buff on yourself. How in the world was this even allowed to happen? The fail rate on unleash is so low that it isn't even a factor. I've watched moon mages sit around and buff with scroll spells and I have yet to see 1 burn up a scroll in the process. Fill up Gyres, nope not 1 scroll burned.
Thieves - The only guild without access to the immense damage resistance barbarians inherently get and mages get using IC. The one guild that is still a glass cannon without the cannon. They get their offense removed, but still receive all the damage every other guild is protect from. Where is the upside?
The rest of the guilds are more or less in the same boat. Extremely damage resistance because of IC, and the exact same damage output because against IC and other like barriers.
DR balance is a completely train wreck right now. I totally understand not 1 person in charge cares about pvp because it doesn't make you money. However, it's in the game, the glaring holes in it are being taken advantage of. Believe it or not some people only play DR because of its unique PVP aspect and it really is just such a shame it's ignored. Only time things are changed is when particular players complain long and hard enough regardless if the changes are warranted.
Please please please stop listening to biased player feedback and spend a few months testing out the possibilities and limits of DR PVP yourselves to better understand the state it is in and where changes need to happen.
I guarantee you more people would enter into pvp and actually enjoy it if it were a balanced system. Or you can continue to ignore it, but that seems like such a waste since a large chunk of the game is focused on combat.
Finally, DR 2.0 might have been the land of 1 shots, but at least everyone could do it which made it a much more balanced system then what we currently have in place. If we are going to stay in the never die Meta, then every guild should be in it and the loopholes to get around it or completely nullify it need to be removed. If the goal is to make everyone equal then do it. Currently the majority are equal and the rest are just outright better or they cant even compete.
THETARGONIAN
Re: Current state of PVP and Barriers
02/21/2022 10:32 AM CST
I think you're missing the argument that I was making, and have continued to make since the barrier review went into effect. IC was a problem. IC is a current problem. The current native barriers are also inadequate for providing PvP protection at their present levels. A Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Moon Mage, Warrior Mage, etc... kill someone in < 45 seconds without that person ever being able to strike back at all (Thieves not included in that list because their Ambushes are broken and are completely unreliable). Kills without counterplay does not good balance make. Neither does capping all of the incoming damage at 5-8% vitality. Both ends of the spectrum stink.
Barbarians and Thieves were excluded from the analysis on Discord because the rest of the conversation, from Rifkinn, Mazrian, and others was SPECIFICALLY about IC and the other native barriers. Barbarians and Thieves don't have access to IC to choose between running instead of their native barriers. If they did, they would be included in the evaluation. I think you missed the context for the conversation, not being on Discord to read the rest. They were not applicable to THAT conversation, given the context.
IC was a problem pre-nerf. It is a problem post-nerf. You should never have capped incoming damage. Guilds that require on spike damage to PvP are unduly affected by capped damage.
RE: the Bardbarian vs. Ravens stuff...that's an interesting take that doesn't match reality. I get the desire to spin, but the spin does not reflect the reality of those PvP situations. "People only die when they want to die or are unbuffed" is completely disingenuous. I've died when I've been 100% buffed and didn't want to die. Gola has died when 100% buffed and didn't want to die. So has Nat. So has Dantia. So has Madigan. Etc...
RE: Barbarians. Volcano was bugged. Volcano has now been fixed. Worth another try killing said Barbarians.
Barbarians and Thieves were excluded from the analysis on Discord because the rest of the conversation, from Rifkinn, Mazrian, and others was SPECIFICALLY about IC and the other native barriers. Barbarians and Thieves don't have access to IC to choose between running instead of their native barriers. If they did, they would be included in the evaluation. I think you missed the context for the conversation, not being on Discord to read the rest. They were not applicable to THAT conversation, given the context.
IC was a problem pre-nerf. It is a problem post-nerf. You should never have capped incoming damage. Guilds that require on spike damage to PvP are unduly affected by capped damage.
RE: the Bardbarian vs. Ravens stuff...that's an interesting take that doesn't match reality. I get the desire to spin, but the spin does not reflect the reality of those PvP situations. "People only die when they want to die or are unbuffed" is completely disingenuous. I've died when I've been 100% buffed and didn't want to die. Gola has died when 100% buffed and didn't want to die. So has Nat. So has Dantia. So has Madigan. Etc...
RE: Barbarians. Volcano was bugged. Volcano has now been fixed. Worth another try killing said Barbarians.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Current state of PVP and Barriers
02/22/2022 09:18 AM CST
>>5 level 200th 70k characters cannot kill 1 character before disablers wear off so they just run off and heal.
Is there a reason retreating/leaving the battle does not count as a loss?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Is there a reason retreating/leaving the battle does not count as a loss?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
VOROSR
Re: Current state of PVP and Barriers
02/22/2022 05:09 PM CST
I think you have some serious misunderstandings about how high level - or mid-level - PvP work. You're not completely wrong, but you're a lot wrong.
IC at cap is about 13 hits to death, not 20. That's assuming it's not dispelled.
I very seriously doubt 5 70k rank characters were incapable of killing a single character before disablers wore off in a vacuum. Certainly such wouldn't be the result of IC - 20 seconds of disabler would give five characters ample time to kill someone protected by IC alone even simply using weapon swings, much less using dispels and so forth. I am aware there was a bug with an ability where it was providing inappropriate protection, and that may be what you saw. That bug is now fixed.
Rend will not strip all buffs within 8 seconds. Rend will strip two spells per cast, and can be shorted down to perhaps 3 or 4 seconds. You are... sort of correct about dispels monopolizing the SVS scene and requiring every caster to stack discipline (and use PSY/REPR.) However, more glaring in at least some minds are spells such as HULP, SL, and IT (clerics, though HULP is not signature and is present on MT wands) which completely cut off casting, and all are vs. Willpower, as well as dispels which are... largely vs. Willpower, and typically lead to losing a fight.
You are correct that moon mages are exceptionally capable of avoiding dying while moons are up. You're also correct that Unleash and Whole Displacement are, frankly, busted, particularly WD. However, moon mages do not have the best debilitation in the game. The best CC (a subset of debilitation) is generally considered to be Deadfall or Ice Patch. It certainly is not... any of the debils Moon Mages have natively. They have two CCs against non-willpower defenses, both of which key off their wisdom, not their intelligence, and are each inferior to, say, Stun Foe. They have MB/MS, which are Mind, like Rend, but are also vs. Willpower and thus smack right into the PSY/REPR that is endemic among PvPers (or NMU native vs. Willpower and/or Mind vs. barriers.) They're good, if they land, but Moon Mage native debil is almost certainly the worst of the magic primes and is firmly in the "okay" area.
Thieves are in a poor spot (when fighting an opponent who is prepared to get attacked by a thief, at least) at the high end, when Ambush Stun and some of their other tricks stop working. They're not as dire as you make it out to be, however. If you consider running away to be a victory - as evidenced by your comments on Moon Mages - then Thieves are nearly as good, and not moon-reliant, with CC nullification and a teleporting disengage into stealth followed by... walking away.
Most other points have been addressed by others in this thread.
IC at cap is about 13 hits to death, not 20. That's assuming it's not dispelled.
I very seriously doubt 5 70k rank characters were incapable of killing a single character before disablers wore off in a vacuum. Certainly such wouldn't be the result of IC - 20 seconds of disabler would give five characters ample time to kill someone protected by IC alone even simply using weapon swings, much less using dispels and so forth. I am aware there was a bug with an ability where it was providing inappropriate protection, and that may be what you saw. That bug is now fixed.
Rend will not strip all buffs within 8 seconds. Rend will strip two spells per cast, and can be shorted down to perhaps 3 or 4 seconds. You are... sort of correct about dispels monopolizing the SVS scene and requiring every caster to stack discipline (and use PSY/REPR.) However, more glaring in at least some minds are spells such as HULP, SL, and IT (clerics, though HULP is not signature and is present on MT wands) which completely cut off casting, and all are vs. Willpower, as well as dispels which are... largely vs. Willpower, and typically lead to losing a fight.
You are correct that moon mages are exceptionally capable of avoiding dying while moons are up. You're also correct that Unleash and Whole Displacement are, frankly, busted, particularly WD. However, moon mages do not have the best debilitation in the game. The best CC (a subset of debilitation) is generally considered to be Deadfall or Ice Patch. It certainly is not... any of the debils Moon Mages have natively. They have two CCs against non-willpower defenses, both of which key off their wisdom, not their intelligence, and are each inferior to, say, Stun Foe. They have MB/MS, which are Mind, like Rend, but are also vs. Willpower and thus smack right into the PSY/REPR that is endemic among PvPers (or NMU native vs. Willpower and/or Mind vs. barriers.) They're good, if they land, but Moon Mage native debil is almost certainly the worst of the magic primes and is firmly in the "okay" area.
Thieves are in a poor spot (when fighting an opponent who is prepared to get attacked by a thief, at least) at the high end, when Ambush Stun and some of their other tricks stop working. They're not as dire as you make it out to be, however. If you consider running away to be a victory - as evidenced by your comments on Moon Mages - then Thieves are nearly as good, and not moon-reliant, with CC nullification and a teleporting disengage into stealth followed by... walking away.
Most other points have been addressed by others in this thread.
