I'm thrilled at all the new stuff coming out of the "Tuesday Team" but posting about the creatures in the new place just opened, Z posted they creatures were 168 using GM evalutation.
Thanks for that info, but I have no idea what 168 means. Could you please post a range of levels using GM and player evaluations?
I know you are reluctant to do so considering all the variables involved (combat skills, player circles and such), but even just one or 2 comparisons would help.
Zinaca and her baby wolf, Lucky
DUNEPLAY
YOFIE
Re: creature level
05/29/2020 05:00 PM CDT
not sure how equivalent this creature level is to the GM number, but you can always check out the bestiary hunting ladder spreadsheet here:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Hunting_ladders
it does show a creature level so you can compare different critters
Rehlyn
Well, see, there's the linchpin of why everything you're saying is wrong. There's the fulcrum. There's the centerpiece. There's the turkey on the Thanksgiving table.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Hunting_ladders
it does show a creature level so you can compare different critters
Rehlyn
Well, see, there's the linchpin of why everything you're saying is wrong. There's the fulcrum. There's the centerpiece. There's the turkey on the Thanksgiving table.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: creature level
05/30/2020 02:58 AM CDT
Posting it as "player circle" is pretty meaningless because something 10 circles above a Paladin means they can't kill it but it's no danger, whereas a Warrior Mage might get slaughtered by engaging four at melee but can easily mow them down from missile range with TM, and then Barbarians and Rangers are climbing to new critters 20-30 circles ahead of everyone...
Though I do agree maybe releasing a few data points of popular critters of how this GM tools evaluates stuff might be useful so we have some points of reference.
Though I do agree maybe releasing a few data points of popular critters of how this GM tools evaluates stuff might be useful so we have some points of reference.
SAUVA
Re: creature level
05/30/2020 06:01 AM CDT
>Though I do agree maybe releasing a few data points of popular critters of how this GM tools evaluates stuff might be useful so we have some points of reference.
I'd be happy with a Tuesday Tiding that just had the GMs going and manually running the level tool on every critter and posting that. But I'm an admitted weirdo about numbers. :¯\(ツ)/¯:
~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea
I'd be happy with a Tuesday Tiding that just had the GMs going and manually running the level tool on every critter and posting that. But I'm an admitted weirdo about numbers. :¯\(ツ)/¯:
~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea
DR-ZADRAES
Re: creature level
05/31/2020 07:49 AM CDT
This keeps coming up, but I'll hit the highlights again for those just tuning in. :)
>I know you are reluctant to do so considering all the variables involved (combat skills, player circles and such), but even just one or 2 comparisons would help.
We've been releasing this. Several in just the past few weeks with the Tuesday Tidings hunting areas:
#7 - Siksraja hunting, 58-63 via our tool.
#8 - P5 void-black moths, 185-188 via our tool.
#9 - Elder Adan'f, 188-192 via our tool.
#14 - Cabalists, 163 via our tool.
Last year when I was evaluating and making initial updates:
Telga Orek - ~150
Bone Wyverns - ~195
Jeol Moradu - 172-178
Those are datapoints that can be used to have an idea of where they stand in relation to one another, and if you hunt any of them, you have an idea of where to check next, roughly. Leading to...
>Posting it as "player circle" is pretty meaningless because ...
^Pretty much this. X level for any given guild is a very different set of skills and levels. There's not a clean standard, and old creatures in particular can be very misleading -- stats can be unusually high and it throws the estimates off, or skills with the same result. The gear a creature has can also factor in -- some of these newer updates are using modern tier 3-5 gear, whereas older creatures are using templates from pre-crafting, pre-x3, etc.
>I'd be happy with a Tuesday Tiding that just had the GMs going and manually running the level tool on every critter and posting that.
I've talked about this before, but I think some of you seriously underestimate how much time it would take to gather this kind of data. We don't push a button and get mass results. We don't have some magical database with the results. We would have to visit every hunting area in the game, by hand, evaluate the spawner for its settings, then evaluate a handful of the creatures that spawn to determine discrepancies (pretty sure I posted something in the past on the weirdness with the dark sprites in Premium's abandoned castle hunting area in Riverhaven), organize it into a player-friendly format. It's very much like if we said "Come on guys, there's more of you, why don't you have epedia updated for one another?" Because it's a massive task and not something someone (or even a group of someones) could do in any sort of timely fashion. For strike team's projects in particular, it way way way exceeds what we would do.
All of this covered and explained, my overall answer is the same as before. We've heard the request. We're looking at options. There's nothing more I can say on it right now. If/when strike team releases new or updated hunting areas, we'll continue to provide the datapoints we have been.
(And for further reading on the Riverhaven sprites: https://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Creatures%20of%20Elanthia/Responses%20to%20GM%60Official%20Announcements/view/463 )
Zadraes
>I know you are reluctant to do so considering all the variables involved (combat skills, player circles and such), but even just one or 2 comparisons would help.
We've been releasing this. Several in just the past few weeks with the Tuesday Tidings hunting areas:
#7 - Siksraja hunting, 58-63 via our tool.
#8 - P5 void-black moths, 185-188 via our tool.
#9 - Elder Adan'f, 188-192 via our tool.
#14 - Cabalists, 163 via our tool.
Last year when I was evaluating and making initial updates:
Telga Orek - ~150
Bone Wyverns - ~195
Jeol Moradu - 172-178
Those are datapoints that can be used to have an idea of where they stand in relation to one another, and if you hunt any of them, you have an idea of where to check next, roughly. Leading to...
>Posting it as "player circle" is pretty meaningless because ...
^Pretty much this. X level for any given guild is a very different set of skills and levels. There's not a clean standard, and old creatures in particular can be very misleading -- stats can be unusually high and it throws the estimates off, or skills with the same result. The gear a creature has can also factor in -- some of these newer updates are using modern tier 3-5 gear, whereas older creatures are using templates from pre-crafting, pre-x3, etc.
>I'd be happy with a Tuesday Tiding that just had the GMs going and manually running the level tool on every critter and posting that.
I've talked about this before, but I think some of you seriously underestimate how much time it would take to gather this kind of data. We don't push a button and get mass results. We don't have some magical database with the results. We would have to visit every hunting area in the game, by hand, evaluate the spawner for its settings, then evaluate a handful of the creatures that spawn to determine discrepancies (pretty sure I posted something in the past on the weirdness with the dark sprites in Premium's abandoned castle hunting area in Riverhaven), organize it into a player-friendly format. It's very much like if we said "Come on guys, there's more of you, why don't you have epedia updated for one another?" Because it's a massive task and not something someone (or even a group of someones) could do in any sort of timely fashion. For strike team's projects in particular, it way way way exceeds what we would do.
All of this covered and explained, my overall answer is the same as before. We've heard the request. We're looking at options. There's nothing more I can say on it right now. If/when strike team releases new or updated hunting areas, we'll continue to provide the datapoints we have been.
(And for further reading on the Riverhaven sprites: https://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Creatures%20of%20Elanthia/Responses%20to%20GM%60Official%20Announcements/view/463 )
Zadraes
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: creature level
05/31/2020 04:48 PM CDT
Hey Z -
Would doing a few critters with the GM tool be possible? The problem with all the data points you've released is that they are all level 150+, and even in an era with REXP, level 180-195 is not a meaningful point of comparison for most of the player base. Some suggestions for very popular critters? Something like beisswurms, vipers, rock guardians, leucs, storm bulls, drakes, and moths? Could even do 2-3 a week along with the Tuesday Tidings and eventually we'd have a meaningful database of comparisons.
Would doing a few critters with the GM tool be possible? The problem with all the data points you've released is that they are all level 150+, and even in an era with REXP, level 180-195 is not a meaningful point of comparison for most of the player base. Some suggestions for very popular critters? Something like beisswurms, vipers, rock guardians, leucs, storm bulls, drakes, and moths? Could even do 2-3 a week along with the Tuesday Tidings and eventually we'd have a meaningful database of comparisons.
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: creature level
05/31/2020 05:33 PM CDT
I'm all for getting any missing documentation for creature levels but fyi; beisswurms, vipers (both copperhead and thicket), rock guardians, black leucs, storm bulls and moths all have documented relative creature levels on https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Hunting_ladders and the respective creature pages.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
DUNEPLAY
Re: creature level
06/04/2020 11:30 PM CDT
>>I'm all for getting any missing documentation for creature levels but fyi; beisswurms, vipers (both copperhead and thicket), rock guardians, black leucs, storm bulls and moths all have documented relative creature levels on https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Hunting_ladders and the respective creature pages.<<
Well see the problem I found was when they released all those moth things and I believe it was posted around 160 level. So I think oh great I can hunt something new. I'm so glad I ran into someone who basically told me he was having a challenge with more than 2 or 3. Since I can't hunt wyverns yet...I was happy for the advice!
Sooooooo that's the story behind my asking. Z you amaze me and all the others too and this is what makes this great...that what we think and are concerned with, you will at least listen and if possible fix.
Zinaca and her baby wolf, Lucky
Well see the problem I found was when they released all those moth things and I believe it was posted around 160 level. So I think oh great I can hunt something new. I'm so glad I ran into someone who basically told me he was having a challenge with more than 2 or 3. Since I can't hunt wyverns yet...I was happy for the advice!
Sooooooo that's the story behind my asking. Z you amaze me and all the others too and this is what makes this great...that what we think and are concerned with, you will at least listen and if possible fix.
Zinaca and her baby wolf, Lucky
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: creature level
06/05/2020 01:02 AM CDT
Invasion moths start at 170 relative creature level. 24/7 umbral moths start at 178 creature level. We don't have the creature level for wyverns but it's easy to estimate around 115 to 120 based on the ranks required. The hunting ladder is based on relative difficulty. The GM relative creature level just gives us a little more granularity. It doesn't supersede the ranks needed to hunt something so if you don't have the skills to hunt a wyvern at ~1000 ranks you definitely do not have the skills to hunt a moth at ~1400 ranks - knowing the relative creature level does not change this.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
TEVESHSZAT
Re: creature level
08/22/2020 01:12 PM CDT
>>We don't push a button and get mass results. We don't have some magical database with the results. We would have to visit every hunting area in the game, by hand, evaluate the spawner for its settings, then evaluate a handful of the creatures that spawn to determine discrepancies (pretty sure I posted something in the past on the weirdness with the dark sprites in Premium's abandoned castle hunting area in Riverhaven), organize it into a player-friendly format.
Sorry for the late response (was on hiatus for the last year or so for various reasons, but the latest was being swamped with COVID-related work!).
This reminds me of why HOME CATALOG was built out the way it was (as players visit shops, that shop info gets pulled into the catalog), and, to a lesser extent, how players better helped treasure maps find valid spots to point to (where a player visiting a room contributes to it being flagged as viable). If I'm misremembering either of these, I apologize. The bandwidth needed for GMs to find, let alone visit, every furniture store was too great, and the idea of a GM personally going around flagging each room in the entire game as "yeah sure a player can actually find their way here" was also a ridiculous ask.
With that in mind, it would be neat if something like RECALL CREATURE secretly pulled level data from that specific critter that can then be stored somewhere so players could see an average and/or range for that specific creature. I picked recall critter over appraise because I feel it's used less than appraise, but may still be used often enough when a player first sees a critter (especially with new critters!) that it can pull enough data.
It's obviously a lot easier to concept this out than actually execute, but this specific situation reminded me a lot of how GMs in the past used player activity to help with issues like these.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Sorry for the late response (was on hiatus for the last year or so for various reasons, but the latest was being swamped with COVID-related work!).
This reminds me of why HOME CATALOG was built out the way it was (as players visit shops, that shop info gets pulled into the catalog), and, to a lesser extent, how players better helped treasure maps find valid spots to point to (where a player visiting a room contributes to it being flagged as viable). If I'm misremembering either of these, I apologize. The bandwidth needed for GMs to find, let alone visit, every furniture store was too great, and the idea of a GM personally going around flagging each room in the entire game as "yeah sure a player can actually find their way here" was also a ridiculous ask.
With that in mind, it would be neat if something like RECALL CREATURE secretly pulled level data from that specific critter that can then be stored somewhere so players could see an average and/or range for that specific creature. I picked recall critter over appraise because I feel it's used less than appraise, but may still be used often enough when a player first sees a critter (especially with new critters!) that it can pull enough data.
It's obviously a lot easier to concept this out than actually execute, but this specific situation reminded me a lot of how GMs in the past used player activity to help with issues like these.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: creature level
08/22/2020 01:24 PM CDT
Heck, you could theoretically also pull data on what province and location each critter was audited from, so it worked even closer to home catalog.
>hunt catalog
Council Member TKTKTK has tasked his associates with cataloging the beasts found throughout Elanthia. Contained here is the collected registry as it now stands. As adventurers make contact with creatures in the further corners of the realms, their knowledge will be added.
Book 1: Zoluren
Book 2: Therengia
Book 3: Ilithi
Book 4: Qi
Book 5: Forfedhdar
Book 6: Roaming Creatures and Special Occasions
[HUNT CATALOG # to see listings contained within a particular book.]
>hunt catalog 1
You scan the pages of Zoluren, looking for that chapter, but you can't seem to find it. You do take note of those that area available, however.
Chapter 1: Beasts
Chapter 2: Humanoid
Chapter 3: Undead
Chapter 4: Cursed
Chapter 5: Constructs
[HUNT CATALOG 1 # to see Zoluren's listings for a particular creature type.]
>hunt catalog 1 1
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>hunt catalog
Council Member TKTKTK has tasked his associates with cataloging the beasts found throughout Elanthia. Contained here is the collected registry as it now stands. As adventurers make contact with creatures in the further corners of the realms, their knowledge will be added.
Book 1: Zoluren
Book 2: Therengia
Book 3: Ilithi
Book 4: Qi
Book 5: Forfedhdar
Book 6: Roaming Creatures and Special Occasions
[HUNT CATALOG # to see listings contained within a particular book.]
>hunt catalog 1
You scan the pages of Zoluren, looking for that chapter, but you can't seem to find it. You do take note of those that area available, however.
Chapter 1: Beasts
Chapter 2: Humanoid
Chapter 3: Undead
Chapter 4: Cursed
Chapter 5: Constructs
[HUNT CATALOG 1 # to see Zoluren's listings for a particular creature type.]
>hunt catalog 1 1
| The Creatures of Zoluren |
| Beasts |
| Level | Name | Area Name |
| 1 | ship rat | shipyard |
| 2 | musk hog | fields |
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SAUVA
Re: creature level
08/23/2020 06:15 AM CDT
A way for players to access critter level was released into DR TEST.
I wish it would have just been part of appraisal, since app desperately needs more accuracy and reasons to exist, but that's good enough for me.
~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea
I wish it would have just been part of appraisal, since app desperately needs more accuracy and reasons to exist, but that's good enough for me.
~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea
TEVESHSZAT
Re: creature level
08/23/2020 12:07 PM CDT
Ahhh how about that. Neat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
