... for a year or two before the system ever comes out.

-- "Hey, this is unfair."

** "What is unfair? Post your experience with the system and we will talk about it."

-- "Come on. The system isn't out yet."

** "Exactly my point."

-- "It's just unfair because ... because ..."

** "Because of your impression on how it is going to be?"

Trebber

Sometimes, though, people make suggestions about an upcoming system, or comments on how it's been described by GMs, and people will jump on them for complaining about it when they're just putting in their opinion about game changes.

Arcelebor

---

"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

>>Someone explain to me, in a purely IG, IC manner, exactly how it's going to be that all the top forgers in the land will wake up one day not knowing how to forge a thumb tack without going to see a career hall.. leader... person thing?

Where did anyone ever say that?

All I saw the GM's say was that the forgers would still have to work their way up the ladder within the Hall, which might entail having to make a few hundred thumb tacks (to use your example) to clear the first rung of the ladder, then some other task(s) on the next rung and so on.

Their skill will still allow them to do (for the most part, I have no idea what the final plan is) what they were able to do beforehand. Nor do you have to be a member of the Hall in order to be able to forge at all, it's just that by being a listed forger with the Hall, you will have access to tools and features the "amateur" forgers do not, because they are held close to the vest by the Hall.

~~~Krin
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
"Goblins ... aisle 6, Mycthengelde ... hunt smart, hunt S-Mart!"
"You whine like a mule ... you are still alive!"
"Call me Snake."

<<The system changes being delayed further, with a ridiculous 'event' involving the laws of physics changing so that the act of pounding metal no longer occurs the same way these people remember it.

Ooh, we can have a new hunting area and then read the numerous posts about how unfair it is because you need to be a forger or have a forged weapon to get in there.

I am all for implementing changes (especially the very much needed ones) as soon as they are ready to go without creating a multiyear development program to herald in the release. I mean, I am pretty sure the traders would have to agree with this (origami and 100th circle).

Trebber

to say one just woke up and could do it is .... well kind of stupid...

almost everything in DR is like that...

verbs.
new attacks
new spells
new almost anything.
horses
boats
a Providence
and go on for infinity.

people wake up and its just there. If anything that is a common occurrence around here.

hell you can know a person for years... Then tomorrow they say meet my new Son and this person is some 25 year old. DUH!

This is the land of Miracles...








"Voodoo keyboard hex made me type this way!"

>>And Krin, you're right, but Mags going from Master Weaponsmith Magdar Bluefletch to career hall peon-in-training is still messed up.

What's the problem with that? He'll still be the first person to the top and the one with the most knowledge/experience. On the relative scale of things, he is still Top Dog.

It doesn't matter that you are the CEO of a major multinational corporation today, you quit and go hire on at a new company, if they say by company policy you start in the mail room and work your way up, then so be it, it's the same for everyone else. Now ... given your skills, talents and experience, chances are you will be running the new company by end of next year, compared to the 10- or 20-year long haul it might take someone starting out with that company for the first time in that field.

It's a new group, he starts at the bottom and proves himself, like everyone else. Not being given a free pass isn't a punishment. If they did give a free pass, that would be a bonus. With his skills and experience he will likely prove himself faster than anyone else and be first to the top of the hill.

For that matter, who's to say maybe the Hall Masters might not just start out by saying that only those who have maker's marks can join, at first, then open to everyone else a few weeks later, giving the "established forgers" a head start? They still have to finish the race (to continue the analogy) but their proven accomplishments merit them pole position and a one lap lead from the start. But even if not, they're running the hottest car on the track, they'll probably take it anyway.

Kinda like how when certain Guilds finally released the ability to circle past 100th, only those who already achieved it were allowed to actually circle for a while, acknowledging their hard work compared to those who only just arrived right after the gate was unlocked. But those who first passed through weren't given free circles, they were only granted what they actually earned ... and when the quests themselves are finally released ("soon" <shudder>), they will still have to go complete the quest before they can circle again. Could happen with careers, who knows?

~~~Krin
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
"Goblins ... aisle 6, Mycthengelde ... hunt smart, hunt S-Mart!"
"You whine like a mule ... you are still alive!"
"Call me Snake."

>>well shouldnt Apu start as grandmaster of alchemy, paper, stonecutting and clothworking, then? If not I think its messed up. its only fair to start everyone with a clean slate with the systems fully fleshed out for all guilds/characters to be given a balanced chance to participate. If one has already earned the skills to be a master then one will quickly regain the rank.

Then put enchanting in there too, so it is like the other creation systems. You have to learn it all over again. Would only be fair.

I know it not going to happen, but both are skill based, but the non magical creation systems have to be totally relearned.

Brabs

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It's fascinating, though, how much like an oral culture this can be when it's carried out entirely in text.--GM Natala

Correct. Everyone will have to start from scratch. Granted, higher circle peoples will have better mentals and will be capable of learning the skill faster. Of course, it's also a creation system designed around the use of a brand new guild-only skill; it's not a creation system that's theoretically open to all. If there were a 'general enchantment' system which any guild could use, it would be a new system and therefore everyone would have to start from scratch regardless.

---

"Perhaps the angel world might even be set up with ectoplasm causally dependent on physical properties, so that wombat copulation on the physical plane sometimes gives rise to baby ectoplasmic wombats on the nonphysical plane." - David J. Chalmers

<< I don't think should be open to non magic users, but would seem fair to still put it in careers, but require you to be magically inclined.


Then what creations systems should magic folks be restricted from to balance things out?

---

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.

---

<<Anything they wouldn't feasibly be able to do. I'm a barb, how am I going to enchant something? Only makes sense that if I don't have magic skills, that I can't be enchanting.

But I do have magic skills and am in a non magic guild.

---

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.

---

Brabs, MMs will not have access to WM enchanting period. Why would they have anything grandfathered?

---

"Perhaps the angel world might even be set up with ectoplasm causally dependent on physical properties, so that wombat copulation on the physical plane sometimes gives rise to baby ectoplasmic wombats on the nonphysical plane." - David J. Chalmers

>>Brabs, MMs will not have access to WM enchanting period. Why would they have anything grandfathered?

I never specified WM enchanting for MM's. I was speaking enchanting in general. And when did I ever mention grandfathering anything?

If one creation going to careers, no reason enchanting shouldn't too.

Brabs

---

It's fascinating, though, how much like an oral culture this can be when it's carried out entirely in text.--GM Natala

"If one creation going to careers, no reason enchanting shouldn't too."

Sure there is. It's a guild ability first and a creation system second.

Furthermore....

1. Making enchanting require a career would strip a moonmage guild ability and move it into careers. This would be like requiring warmages to join a familiar-club. Or requiring barbs to join a dance troupe. You don't have to do this, because these are abilities that are a part of being a barb - just like lunar enchanting is a part of being a MM.

2. Moonmages are more or less required to either enchant, or perform some of the actions involved in enchanting, to effectively circle past a certain point (simply observing fails to be an adequate way to learn astrology). It would be exceedingly lame to have to take up a career just to circle effectively.

>>Making enchanting require a career would strip a moonmage guild ability and move it into careers. This would be like requiring warmages to join a familiar-club. Or requiring barbs to join a dance troupe. You don't have to do this, because these are abilities that are a part of being a barb - just like lunar enchanting is a part of being a MM.

Loosing an ability, oh like forging.

A barbarian's inherent understanding of weapons makes him or her a natural at the forge. Anyone can forge a crude weapon, but only barbarians can produce legendary quality weapons sought after by all.

So that means that this should be left with barbs then.

>>I believe he was referring to, partly, the fact that Warrior Mages are getting their own form of enchanting sometime in the future; perhaps he doesn't realise that WM is significantly different than MM enchanting, and that cleric enchanting will be significantly different than both of them; and that each of them will be heavily dependant on guild-specific abilities and skills.

Oh, quite aware, but they are taking stuff away from some guilds to put them into careers. Only magic users should have access to those careers, but if going to take part of other guilds away, just be even about doing so.

Brabs

---

It's fascinating, though, how much like an oral culture this can be when it's carried out entirely in text.--GM Natala

Correct. Like certain barbarians used preach all the time; anyone can forge, you just need the skills. If you don't have the skills, train harder.

This is more true now than it was before. Once careers come out, everyone really will be on equal footing - the only thing that will matter is your ranks.

---

"Perhaps the angel world might even be set up with ectoplasm causally dependent on physical properties, so that wombat copulation on the physical plane sometimes gives rise to baby ectoplasmic wombats on the nonphysical plane." - David J. Chalmers

I suspect that WM Enchanting will not be the cash cow that MM enchanting is, simply because of the lack of commonly used, easy-to-create product.

Will it be lucrative under the right circumstances? You bet. But it's not going to be as common as MM enchanting, nor have the assembly-line quality of forging.

---

"Perhaps the angel world might even be set up with ectoplasm causally dependent on physical properties, so that wombat copulation on the physical plane sometimes gives rise to baby ectoplasmic wombats on the nonphysical plane." - David J. Chalmers

The thing is, weapon enchanting is NOT permanent, and enchanting can be applied to existing weapons of suitable construction - since damage is inflicted during the enchanting process proportional to the strength of the enchantment. It's not necessary to forge a new blade specifically for enchanting purposes - people can have their existing blades enchanted.

Also, weapon enchanting is liable to be a very individual process, with results tailored to specific needs. Besides, it's still in proposal form. All we really know is the basic process of how an enchantment is created - we don't actually know what enchantments will DO.

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"Perhaps the angel world might even be set up with ectoplasm causally dependent on physical properties, so that wombat copulation on the physical plane sometimes gives rise to baby ectoplasmic wombats on the nonphysical plane." - David J. Chalmers

I am ignorant and lazy. So rather than me go looking, will someone tell me an example of weapon enchanting?

Arcelebor

---

"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Because, weapon enchanting will be based on one new lore skill. The older mages especially with their skyrocket mentals won't have much of a problem training it up if they choose. That's cake.
And why would they not be able to compete in forging? It'll be their chosen mastered career, and they're weapon/lore secondary, so it seems like a pretty sure-fire fit to me.

Also, you can only master in one career hall, and most people only care to buy the best... you don't hear many people advertising or buying 30pt. longbows do you? No. mid-quality goblin hide leathers? If so, that's news to me. So regardless of how much you dabble in multiple careers, you won't make much of anything in your secondary hall, because you can never master it.


-Aya

---

"If you are flammable and have legs, you can never be blocking a fire exit" - Mitch Hedberg.

>You pull Nasmyth to his feet, but he just falls back over since he is dead.

Your argument is based on assumptions that, taken as givens, I cannot refute. Instead, I must simply reply that you need to rethink your basic assumptions on this matter.

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"Perhaps the angel world might even be set up with ectoplasm causally dependent on physical properties, so that wombat copulation on the physical plane sometimes gives rise to baby ectoplasmic wombats on the nonphysical plane." - David J. Chalmers