There is absolutely no way I'm giving Simutronics any more of my money unless I know for sure it's going to the GM's 200%... as in, Simu matches buck for buck.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

I'd be more interested in getting a list of planned or possible additions, and if we could fund individual GMs or groups to put it in game themselves. Kinda pay them for their time spent to speed along progress.

I can't speak for any other GM, but I can absolutely say that for me to spend any more time on DR than I already do, I would have to be able to quit my full time job. I can't imagine any crowdfunded effort would manage to not only compensate me at a matching rate, including benefits, but make up for the uncertainty of re-entering the job market when the funds ran out ;)

-Persida

What about a Patreon kind of thing, then?

Personally, if you want to invest money in something that would draw in a greater crowd for DR and/or foster more development, there are a few options out there for you that don't involve 100% unattainable things like "pay someone's salary":

1) Do something like what the folks originally at Elanthipedia did: realize there was a need (living game documentation) and fill that void. My understanding is that's how Genie came along, too (saw a stronger front end was needed, and they made one).
2) If you feel that they should invest in ads, buy some sponsored content for DR. Go on facebook.com/business and after creating an ad account select "Send people to this website" as the campaign purpose. If you care about DR in particular, play.net/dr can be the URL to promote. Want to do it on twitter? Go to ads.twitter.com and set up something similar. There is probably something along those lines on reddit, too. Just make sure that it's clear that Simu itself isn't doing the promotion, and that you're a user who really loves the game and thinks others will, too. You can probably reach a few thousand people for the price of a longer quest.
3) Want more dev? Seriously, sign up to be a GM and do some dev! Yes, you'll have to quality and get trained and there is a time investment, but this is something GMs want players to help work on.

The best kind of online marketing these days are advocates of a product. Advocates get a much stronger RoI than anything else. Be an advocate, that is what will help DR. Advocates will bring in new players who may someday convert to new GMs who will keep the game's development thriving.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>Ignoring that this whole line of thought is rather tasteless, you're either grossly overestimating how much patreons bring in or grossly underestimating how much a software engineer can demand.

I respect your opinion and I completely disagree with it, seeing how i've seen Patreons for web comics break $5000 a month from almost as many $1 contributors..

Whats wrong with this line of thought again, using calculable logic and reason and not personal opinion?

Why are we assuming that we need to pay exorbitantly to have things accomplished? When did that become a thing for fresh college students with a degree looking to expand their work base via internships?

There was that new beehive design from indiegogo that asked for $50,000 to make it, and ended up with over 12 Million.

The worst thing that our efforts achieve is that we don't get any farther than when we started, but the best thing that can happen is that we obtain our goals. A little effort goes a long way.

>>Why are we assuming that we need to pay exorbitantly to have things accomplished? When did that become a thing for fresh college students with a degree looking to expand their work base via internships?

Because we are talking about a text based game that is 20 years old and largely uses a proprietary language that isn't useful anywhere else. It's more useful in a cool story and I've made things work in a difficult environment rather than I've know this language and it will help me do this job easier.

Also, and this is the big one, Simutronics is not looking to hire a full time game developer for DR, or any of their games, and any money collected and given to them will be used how they want to use it, not how we want them to. You can't make Simu do anything with money they didn't ask for that they don't want to do.

Hi, my name is Armifer, one of the handful of people you are trying to encourage to working longer hours for your enjoyment. Personal opinion is everything to this discussion.

Equating the work I do to money is a bad idea. Flat out, stop the presses, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. If at any point I considered my time with DR a for-profit enterprise I'd immediately quit because I am not being paid remotely enough for that logic to fly. I, and any GM that sticks, do this for intrinsic reasons. So, yes, I consider the notion that money would make me work harder than my intrinsic interest in the game to be tasteless.

The money is nice. It's my entertainment budget and I'd rather have it than not. But the hours I put into DR are far, far and away a loss if I ever came to think of it as a profit-driven task.

>>Why are we assuming that we need to pay exorbitantly to have things accomplished? When did that become a thing for fresh college students with a degree looking to expand their work base via internships?

I'm not an intern, I'm a contractor with just shy of 12 years experience. If Simutronics ever wants to hire interns that'll be their business, but it isn't what's happening now.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

<< There was that new beehive design from indiegogo that asked for $50,000 to make it, and ended up with over 12 Million.>>

Please tell me you aren't talking about that ridiculous "Flow Hive" gimmicky POS. As a mazer, it's appalling how many people have bought into that particular scam. It's more expensive than a traditional hive, encourages swarming, die-offs, and unhealthy bees (which can spread to other hives within a 3-mile radius), and generates inferior unripened, crystallized, or even fermented honey. I could go on for hours about how ungood this thing is... And I have. Elsewhere. Not relevant. The relevant part is:

<< Why are we assuming that we need to pay exorbitantly to have things accomplished? The worst thing that our efforts achieve is that we don't get any farther than when we started... >>

Or a bunch of well-intentioned (but gullible) folks can put their money towards something that ends up being an inferior solution to a problem you didn't have, and creates a dozen infinitely worse problems further down the line that someone then has to clean up.

To be honest, I see alot right about crowdfunding... But don't use this example. Anything but this example. This example needs to die in fire.

~Aislynn

>>I feel like this discussion isn't making as much headway because the assumption is that the work load will be put on the current staff, and it doesn't seem to breach the horizon that others could be hired to do the work. It doesn't breach the horizon that current players could help do the work.

It's not making headway because your suggestion is badly thought out at best and insulting at worst.

>>If the issue of getting new players onto staff is the time it takes to teach the archaic coding system

Case in point: the system isn't archaic as much as it is unique.

>>Another hiring period where new stuff is put on hold and staff member/volunteers are trained.

Another case in point: the assumption that all that needs to be done is "another hiring period," not factoring in things like "who is training these people" or "does anyone have time to run another cohort right now or do they have their own projects to do".

>>It doesn't matter how much someone is worth if they don't get a job that pays them as much as their worth, what matters is whether or not they are willing to take the job at the pay given. Which many, many, many, many, many, many would.

Please stop. You are not convincing anyone. You are more likely doing the opposite at the way you treat income as some kind of weird esoteric treat.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

My two cents: The GMs definitely aren't closed to player support. Over the last couple decades I've seen them solicit the player base for:

- Shops and inventory design
- Creature messaging
- Room/location writing
- System testing and feedback
- Game documentation
- Ideas big and small, and more

Some of these have been contests and some have just been open discussions. So in my experience the best way for players to encourage development is to be patient, cooperative and constructive with the work the GMs are actively doing to better the game instead of looking for greener grass.

If you want to raise awareness of the game and bring in new blood you should do so. But given what you've been told about what you're proposing, I don't understand why you can't simply say 'Ok, nevermind that idea'.

There are lots of ways to advertise the game. I encourage people to do that.

>>Let me redirect you to the original post

It's entirely possible that apparently everyone who responded to you misread you, but your post sounded like "why not do a crowdfunding through social media" with the implication being "to pay for more DR development," since that's what it was the last time(s) you brought it up and/or suggested it in various threads, and not "why not do crowdfunding through social media some advertising to do on social media," which just comes off as weird because at that point why not just be a direct advocate instead of advocate for some funds to advocate.

>>OR DOES IT COST MONEY TO MAKE ONE OF THOSE GOFUNDME PAGES I suppose I don't know, but if it doesn't, free advertisement.

First of all, yes, it costs money to do it, because that's how GoFundMe exists as a business.

Second of all, if the end goal is "advertising" why not directly buy some promoted/sponsored posts on facebook/twitter/instagram instead of funding someone else to do it. You can literally reach 1k or so people who hit all the demographics for DR (RPG/MUD/Pen & Paper RPGs/etc) for like $10 a pop. If that's one person buying an impact of ~10k for $100 or ten people buying an impact of ~1k for $10 each, it's the same impact.

The second suggestion goes with the strong stipulation that you should make sure it's clear you're a fan of DR, and not doing this as an official representative, and it probably wouldn't hurt for DR to give its blessing, but you're really over complicating things if you think a fundraiser is needed to push out some links on social media. ESPECIALLY since you'd have to do that for the GoFundMe to begin with. You'd be doing the same job twice, which is incredibly bad management.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>Ever bought some $8 girl scout cookies or $9 bar of chocolate some kid was selling because it was for a fundraiser? Were YOU ever that girl scout selling those cookies or that kid with the over priced chocolate/whatever you were selling? You would never in your life pay that much unless you felt something other than yourself was gaining benefit from it. That appeal is what draws people in to things they otherwise wouldn't normally be drawn to.

This would support the idea of individuals being advocates for the game and promoting it through their own means than running any kind of fundraising campaign to raise money for a more "corporate" ad.

Look, if we take you at your word that your end goal is "we need to raise money to advertise DragonRealms," then all the effort that would go into a GoFundMe (or whatever) would be much better spent if people just advocated for the game as individuals and spent that $10-20 (or whatever) they'd spend on a GoFundMe to boost their post/tweet/etc through the advertising options available on those social media accounts.

You appear to be arguing this:
1) Set up a GoFundMe that will collect money to "advertise DragonRealms"
2) Invest time/effort in advocating the importance of "advertising DragonRealms", a hard sell itself, on social channels.
3) Take a reduced amount of those funds raised (since GoFundMe is a business and they like being paid), and then creating something. Is the funds raised going toward hiring a designer? Is it going toward just paying for the ad placement? Is the person running the entire thing getting paid for their time? How is this an effective investment in money.
4) Assume Simu itself doesn't want you to stop doing this, for whatever reason.

The counterpoint to your suggestion is this:
1) Invest time/effort in advocating for "playing DragonRealms", an easier sell than "pay for this company's marketing budget"
2) If you feel you wrote something really good, take that $10-20 you would have given GoFundMe and literally boost your post/tweet/etc on a social channel.
3) Assume Simu is less likely to take issue with you doing a marketing campaign for them, since you're talking about the game as an individual and not muddying the waters by creating a robust campaign.

You're making this overly complicated. As I said previously, and as you seem to be saying now, no one really pays attention to ads. Your best marketing source online are advocates of your product. If you want to create a real marketing effort for DR, you'd be much better off encouraging people to talk about DR, promote DR, and maybe occasionally toss a few dollars at boosting their messaging to reach individuals outside of your own circle that hit the right demographics.

I have no idea why you want to do a marketing GoFundMe. It's just not how things are done, especially in the context of a for-profit company.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

No no no no no. A little bit of yes, well thought out responses at the least, but several more times no.

The goal of the gofuncrowdkickstarter is _NOT TO RAISE FUNDS_. The goal is ADVERTISEMENT. TO ADVERTISE. To use POPULAR MEANS AND SOURCES as a point of ADVERTISEMENT.

Set the goal to $1,000,000, never reach it, never receive any money because the goal wasn't met. But it will be something searchable and seeable on not only THAT crowdmoneytaking website, but also wherever one shares the link to it, twitter facebook google+ whatever.

Aside from appealing to your friends and friends of friends to take a look at it by sharing it via social media, drawing them into it because GiveMeMoney websites links shared by friends draw in audiences VERY WELL, it gives it a spot on those well trafficked HopeIGetSomethingForGivingMoney websites, where people often idly browse through the categories to see "what else might be interesting." And if it just so happens that someone finds a DR listing "interesting" then it gets shared by friends, and their friends of friends.


>>The Girl Scouts are a non-profit company.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42270952/ns/business-small_business/t/how-girl-scouts-built-their-million-cookie-empire/

Yea, and if i'm a billionaire but don't have a house I guess i'm homeless, but I sure have a lot of money. Correlation? If I say i'm a nonprofit and sell something to you and make a profit... Lets not even though, gotta stay on topic.

>>The goal of the gofuncrowdkickstarter is _NOT TO RAISE FUNDS_. The goal is ADVERTISEMENT. TO ADVERTISE. To use POPULAR MEANS AND SOURCES as a point of ADVERTISEMENT.

>>Set the goal to $1,000,000, never reach it, never receive any money because the goal wasn't met. But it will be something searchable and seeable on not only THAT crowdmoneytaking website, but also wherever one shares the link to it, twitter facebook google+ whatever.

In light of this, I preferred when you were insulting the coders, mainly because now I feel like you're insulting me and/or trying to play an incredibly avant-garde prank.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Discussions of money, like politics and religion, rarely end well, intentions be damned. Many of us have let passion take over in less controversial topics, like our rented text.

This game is personal for all of us. I mean, it’s managed to stick around, thanks to the community (GMs, GHs, mentors, players, etc.), despite being in what most would call a dead genre. So… I am SO quitting if longswords get nerfed, or if Pureblade gets buffed because… Well, because Pureblade!

Back on... off topic... Whether or not this is relevant to the OP (I understand the post was referring to advertising specifically), I have also thought of a crowdsourcing thing to fund specific projects some GMs have stated they wanted to undertake but couldn’t due to resource constraints. I don’t think thinking so was a sin given a GM poster has posted in the past that s/he wished s/he could invest a specific large sum of money in certain projects (which speaks to the nobility of the position as it stands – clearly it ain’t about the money). However, I realized two things:

1) The playerbase isn’t big enough. I’ve seen crowdsourced projects for which the starter had hundreds of thousands or millions of “followers” that didn’t net nearly THAT much, and it’s a hard sell when our relatively small community of, maybe, a couple thousand players (pushing it) already pays to play.
2) The community donates its time because many of us have a love or appreciation for the game that extends beyond ranks and abilities. This is one is probably the bigger point for some (for me) because there’s something beautiful about the game (and mostly dead in gaming) and bringing money into the equation devalues it.

As far as advertising goes, I don't know that going heavier into ad would help much, although I've flip-flopped a little on that. Hope springs eternal and all that. The fact remains we, people who appreciate MUDs, are a very niche audience in 2016, but social media would be a great way to go at an individual, player level, given that we probably have friends who share similar interests with friends who share similar interests, etc.

>>Thank YOU KINTALIA, because its hard conversing with people who don't get marketing. Its nice when someone else comes in to explain it, because one person doing it apparently makes them sound crazy.

...you do realize that she's also telling you that the idea is pants on head silly, right?

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Hi I'm Thayet. I've helped do social media promotion for various Kickstarters and GoFundMes related to TTRPGs. Neither of these things will work for DR. It will fail for all of the reasons Kintalia said and it will actually end up doing harm.

On the general subject of advertising, certain advertising spots have helped in the past, but you have to be very, very careful about your target audience too because you're pushing a very niche product to begin with and if you pitch it at the wrong crowd your ROI will be tiny to nonexistent.

Years ago for example, Simu comped the cost of 4 internal banners on Something Awful to point to a thread about DR. That cost 40 dollars and pulled in about ~30-40 new players. The bulk didn't stick around of course, but that was when even starting accounts cost money, long before f2p, so it was worth it.

So something like that would probably work on different venues -- Facebook, twitter, and reddit (ugh) have been mentioned -- but you'd have to find someone willing to do all that work too. Once upon a time I did it all for free, but that was when I was young and naive and didn't realize my time had value. Now I'd expect to be comped somehow for any advertising work I did on Simu's behalf. And honestly, all else aside, I don't think Whatley's buying.

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Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

Am I the only one who wants to scream after reading this post?