DRAKUEL
Focused Cloud funding
05/30/2015 08:52 AM CDT
Has DR thought of cloud funding campaigns to support their projects or changes..
I know in today's challenging development world, many game companies have turned to this and has been very successful. It is amazing how many fans and players would pay extra to get certain things funded and in game. I know I would donate more money this way if it were to achieve certain goals for the game.
I think the best example of this is Star citizen... Anyhow just a thought, it would advertise the game as well as bring in funds for certain projects. There are many things you can do, to encourage donations as well..
KUYKEND9
Re: Focused Cloud funding
05/30/2015 09:41 AM CDT
The sentiment here is great, and it might be possible in some scenarios, the flaw is that with very few exceptions, the GMs in charge of developing new content for the game are unpaid volunteers. Being a GM is, in a sense, recreational, and while there are systems in place to reward these volunteers monetarily on occasion for their contributions, it's a very different thing for Simutronics to accept payment explicitly for development of systems that are being created and crafted by people in their free time. I guess what I'm saying is that in many cases, throwing money at the developers won't be a significant boon to the speed or quality of their development, since the primary factor isn't their compensation, but rather their level of personal interest and quantity of available time to spend on a project. Obviously money can certainly raise someone's interest, but the issue of free time is still severely limiting.
This isn't to say that I don't think the central idea here is without merit. Like I said already, the sentiment is great. Application of that sentiment though is still tricky, even if we assume it would have the desired effect. Since the current "budget" for any given development project in DR is exactly 0, how do you decide which projects need funding, and how much? Is a Beseech rewrite worth more than a Glyph rewrite? If not executed carefully, this idea effectively becomes a bribery system, where guilds/groups with larger followings end up "buying off" the already limited time of GMs, resulting in other areas of development falling behind. There are enough abandoned projects - areas, creatures, and systems that are mere weeks away from completion, left untouched for years at a time - without us adding in a new method of pulling development off of certain projects in favor of others. On that note, I could probably get behind a crowd-funding campaign that was specifically designed to pay for GMs to finish current [abandoned] projects before starting new ones, but even with that you end up having people working on things they have no emotional connection to, which is counter to the way DR development works. Forcing people (or binding them financially) to work on things they don't care about results in lackluster results and hollow systems, whereas allowing people to follow their passions gives us amazing, robust developments such as those we've seen in the Crafting system (for example).
I know it seems like I'm just poking holes without offering solutions, and I'm sorry about that. Unfortunately, I can't see a good method of implementing crowd-funding for DR's development. I do think that it's a great idea at it's core; I'd like to reward the GMs who work hard on this game, but I don't know how it would be possible with this system.
I
"Q: This is stupid. / Work on something we actually need changed! / Why aren't you working on something I want you to work on?
"A: Kindly shut up." ~ GM Naohhi
This isn't to say that I don't think the central idea here is without merit. Like I said already, the sentiment is great. Application of that sentiment though is still tricky, even if we assume it would have the desired effect. Since the current "budget" for any given development project in DR is exactly 0, how do you decide which projects need funding, and how much? Is a Beseech rewrite worth more than a Glyph rewrite? If not executed carefully, this idea effectively becomes a bribery system, where guilds/groups with larger followings end up "buying off" the already limited time of GMs, resulting in other areas of development falling behind. There are enough abandoned projects - areas, creatures, and systems that are mere weeks away from completion, left untouched for years at a time - without us adding in a new method of pulling development off of certain projects in favor of others. On that note, I could probably get behind a crowd-funding campaign that was specifically designed to pay for GMs to finish current [abandoned] projects before starting new ones, but even with that you end up having people working on things they have no emotional connection to, which is counter to the way DR development works. Forcing people (or binding them financially) to work on things they don't care about results in lackluster results and hollow systems, whereas allowing people to follow their passions gives us amazing, robust developments such as those we've seen in the Crafting system (for example).
I know it seems like I'm just poking holes without offering solutions, and I'm sorry about that. Unfortunately, I can't see a good method of implementing crowd-funding for DR's development. I do think that it's a great idea at it's core; I'd like to reward the GMs who work hard on this game, but I don't know how it would be possible with this system.
I
"Q: This is stupid. / Work on something we actually need changed! / Why aren't you working on something I want you to work on?
"A: Kindly shut up." ~ GM Naohhi
BADGOPHER
Re: Focused Cloud funding
05/30/2015 09:50 AM CDT
>I think the best example of this is Star citizen...
...
Star Citizen has earned, to date, over 62 million dollars, been in development since early 2011, and released nothing (a hangar simulator and a half arena combat mode). I don't think it's a good example of 'money well earned, money well spent' as far as game dev goes.
But setting that aside, the problem with DR isn't money, per se, it's dev time. All our GMs are full time workers in real life, with families and so on, who also want to play other games, and still spend time developing systems and content for DR.
I don't think that if we cloud-fund something, DR would be able to hire a full time dev to punch out systems. And I don't think DR is willing to release its proprietary game engine code to offshore assets for development (i.e. India, Taiwan, etc.) since, while offshoring is often cheap, it also comes with language barriers, and other things.
Plus our subscription fees, quest fees, fest fees, etc. should go to pay for some of this.
Setting all of that aside, this issue has been brought up multiple times; the response from the GMs has historically been that they don't want players 'paying' to determine what gets developed (i.e. I payed 50,000 so you would make system X, I'm going to sue you for breach of contract because you used it for Y and/or I don't like X, other nonsense).
...
Star Citizen has earned, to date, over 62 million dollars, been in development since early 2011, and released nothing (a hangar simulator and a half arena combat mode). I don't think it's a good example of 'money well earned, money well spent' as far as game dev goes.
But setting that aside, the problem with DR isn't money, per se, it's dev time. All our GMs are full time workers in real life, with families and so on, who also want to play other games, and still spend time developing systems and content for DR.
I don't think that if we cloud-fund something, DR would be able to hire a full time dev to punch out systems. And I don't think DR is willing to release its proprietary game engine code to offshore assets for development (i.e. India, Taiwan, etc.) since, while offshoring is often cheap, it also comes with language barriers, and other things.
Plus our subscription fees, quest fees, fest fees, etc. should go to pay for some of this.
Setting all of that aside, this issue has been brought up multiple times; the response from the GMs has historically been that they don't want players 'paying' to determine what gets developed (i.e. I payed 50,000 so you would make system X, I'm going to sue you for breach of contract because you used it for Y and/or I don't like X, other nonsense).
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Focused Cloud funding
05/30/2015 02:17 PM CDT
I tend to think of plat, premium and the scoin store as our version's of crowd funding/donations/etc. Basically the same thing, the people who're interested and able to contribute more can do so and receive nice things for it.
DR-RAESH
Re: Focused Cloud funding
05/30/2015 02:23 PM CDT
Really, the problem is this: unless you can donate enough to compensate me for quitting my real job (including benefits and the ability to know the job will still be there in 20 years) I really don't have more time to commit.
I imagine most of staff would face the same problem.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I imagine most of staff would face the same problem.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ELLUSIONZ
Re: Focused Cloud funding
05/30/2015 04:44 PM CDT
Thats why you steal college and high school age kids with the idea they are "interning" with no pay but a wonderful experience they can add to their resume :)
On a whim...: http://www.lostonawhim.com/
The Zoluren army asks, "We're um.... really sorry about the clubhouse and all... so uh... are we cool?"
Train? Why? I'll get there eventually...
On a whim...: http://www.lostonawhim.com/
The Zoluren army asks, "We're um.... really sorry about the clubhouse and all... so uh... are we cool?"
Train? Why? I'll get there eventually...
CALLEK
Re: Focused Cloud funding
05/30/2015 06:33 PM CDT
Also noteworthy Simu tried to do the cloudfunding thing with Dragons of Elanthia, and that campaign pretty much sank. I don't imagine them to do it in any meaningful way anytime soon.
http://www.dragonsofelanthia.com/ and https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/simutronics/dragons-of-elanthia to be clear.
http://www.dragonsofelanthia.com/ and https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/simutronics/dragons-of-elanthia to be clear.
DRAKUEL
Re: Focused Cloud funding
05/30/2015 08:14 PM CDT
Heh, wished I could.. If I had that kind of money, I would support finishing my hero engine project I had to let go. I can only do my best with my subscription and store purchases at this point, so I guess I will keep watching for those store items to help that way.
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/08/2015 01:57 PM CDT
<<Thats why you steal college and high school age kids with the idea they are "interning" with no pay but a wonderful experience they can add to their resume :)>>
Multiple issues here, the first of which is that you can't do that with interns. The second of which is that coding in DR is done with a proprietary language that no one outside of the game will ever find a use for, so this sort of "experience" is pretty useless on a resume. Thirdly, unless the intern is an existing player, we'd spend more time trying to explain the mere basics of the way the game works than we would teaching them how to code in our language (which already takes several months). Long before they'd be useful, the internship would be over and we'd have wasted a massive amount of time and resources on them.
Solomon
Multiple issues here, the first of which is that you can't do that with interns. The second of which is that coding in DR is done with a proprietary language that no one outside of the game will ever find a use for, so this sort of "experience" is pretty useless on a resume. Thirdly, unless the intern is an existing player, we'd spend more time trying to explain the mere basics of the way the game works than we would teaching them how to code in our language (which already takes several months). Long before they'd be useful, the internship would be over and we'd have wasted a massive amount of time and resources on them.
Solomon
SYRAKEN
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 04:16 PM CDT
If enough money came in it probably is more than a maybe that developers and moderators would be able to devote more time to the game if there was more compensation for their work~
KUYKEND9
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 04:37 PM CDT
>> If enough money came in it probably is more than a maybe that developers and moderators would be able to devote more time to the game if there was more compensation for their work~
Sure. It would have to be about $60,000-80,000 per developer, and that'll get you one year of dedicated development.
What I'm saying, without snark, is that you'd need to be able to pay them a 40 hr/wk salary, consistently.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
Sure. It would have to be about $60,000-80,000 per developer, and that'll get you one year of dedicated development.
What I'm saying, without snark, is that you'd need to be able to pay them a 40 hr/wk salary, consistently.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 06:14 PM CDT
If Simu gave me four times what they currently do I'd still need to have a primary job to pay for food and rent.
No GM I know does the job for the expectation of fiscal compensation, it's merely a nice thing that sometimes happens. No one is going to work harder or have more time free due to an additional token amount of income, they already work as hard as occupation and interest permits.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
No GM I know does the job for the expectation of fiscal compensation, it's merely a nice thing that sometimes happens. No one is going to work harder or have more time free due to an additional token amount of income, they already work as hard as occupation and interest permits.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
DR-RAESH
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 07:30 PM CDT
>>If Simu gave me four times what they currently do I'd still need to have a primary job to pay for food and rent.
Yup. Even an order of magnitude increase would still leave me needing to work my primary job.
It is what it is. Just keep in mind full time pay for even a small part of staff you'd be looking at needing a budget of something like $1mil annually (Figure $50k/yr x 10 GMs x 2 for taxes, benefits, etc.). That's an awful lot of subscriptions.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Yup. Even an order of magnitude increase would still leave me needing to work my primary job.
It is what it is. Just keep in mind full time pay for even a small part of staff you'd be looking at needing a budget of something like $1mil annually (Figure $50k/yr x 10 GMs x 2 for taxes, benefits, etc.). That's an awful lot of subscriptions.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
BADGOPHER
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 09:30 PM CDT
And we're all neglecting the slightly less obvious, skill stagnation.
I don't think a lot of our GMs are currently in 'making games with code' type job roles, so when that one year of full time DR employment ran out, they'd be back in the job market with skills already a year old, and most place aren't particularly thrilled to re-hire, so they're also looking at a new company and relocation.
I don't think a lot of our GMs are currently in 'making games with code' type job roles, so when that one year of full time DR employment ran out, they'd be back in the job market with skills already a year old, and most place aren't particularly thrilled to re-hire, so they're also looking at a new company and relocation.
THAYET
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 09:36 PM CDT
GSL being a proprietary language is sort of a problem with regards to employment too. It's not a skill you can take with you to a different job later on.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 09:45 PM CDT
>>GSL being a proprietary language is sort of a problem with regards to employment too. It's not a skill you can take with you to a different job later on.
This point is neither here nor there but honestly with the amount of proprietary code I have to know for one CMS vs another it's not like it's a totally worthless trait outside of that one particular job/project/etc unless the language logic itself is completely out of the norm.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
This point is neither here nor there but honestly with the amount of proprietary code I have to know for one CMS vs another it's not like it's a totally worthless trait outside of that one particular job/project/etc unless the language logic itself is completely out of the norm.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
THAYET
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 09:51 PM CDT
I mean yes there are general skills you can take with you by knowing how to code in almost any language, I mean going to a prospective employer and going "I know GSL really well and I've spent the last X years using it almost exclusively!" is absolutely meaningless.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 10:14 PM CDT
>>I mean going to a prospective employer and going "I know GSL really well and I've spent the last X years using it almost exclusively!" is absolutely meaningless.
Yeah but why would you say that, or at least say it that way.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Yeah but why would you say that, or at least say it that way.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 10:18 PM CDT
I put DR on my resume, but I fish for jobs as a social scientist not as any sort of techie, so working in any sort of programming environment for a decade looks quirky and neat instead of "GSL is a dead-end skillset."
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
KUYKEND9
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 10:21 PM CDT
I've put DR on my resume as well; just because GSL is proprietary doesn't mean that there aren't other skills one can learn here. Problem-solving, project management, game design (big one), customer service... I think whether or not you can use a job (or volunteer position, in this case) to better yourself is less about the job itself, and a lot more about your own personal philosophy.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
R>
Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
DASLOW
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/22/2015 11:19 PM CDT
I hope you used to be GM because putting a game, as just a player, on your resume is wierd.
DR-NAOHHI
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/23/2015 08:00 AM CDT
I've also used DR on my resume, and continue to. If nothing else, it has gotten me interviews just so people can ask "What the heck is a GameMaster?" I've even brought in a few players after telling them about stuff in interviews. It helped me land my first IT job doing QA, got me contacts with people at some major companies that in turn, helped me land other jobs.
GSL may be proprietary, it may use antiquated techniques compared to other languages in the tech world; however, the knowledge of it, and once I tell them about how creative our staff has to be to get some things to work.. it tells some employers quite a bit about your skill level and ability to apply that problem solving tactic to other languages/issues.
All about how you spin it, IMO.
>>even if four times
Even if times 1600. It gets even more hilarious if I wanted something comparative to my current salary so that I could continue to put money into savings each month.
---
NaOH+HI
GSL may be proprietary, it may use antiquated techniques compared to other languages in the tech world; however, the knowledge of it, and once I tell them about how creative our staff has to be to get some things to work.. it tells some employers quite a bit about your skill level and ability to apply that problem solving tactic to other languages/issues.
All about how you spin it, IMO.
>>even if four times
Even if times 1600. It gets even more hilarious if I wanted something comparative to my current salary so that I could continue to put money into savings each month.
---
NaOH+HI
DR-RAESH
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/23/2015 12:45 PM CDT
Hmm... I'd go full time, even without benefits, for x1600 my current incoming from DR.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Focused Cloud funding
06/23/2015 06:03 PM CDT
>>GSL may be proprietary, it may use antiquated techniques compared to other languages in the tech world; however, the knowledge of it, and once I tell them about how creative our staff has to be to get some things to work.. it tells some employers quite a bit about your skill level and ability to apply that problem solving tactic to other languages/issues.
Yep. This is pretty much how I treat every outdated email/CMS/database system I have to learn. Sure, no one would want me to use it (hopefully!), but they're impressed when I tell them what I'm able to have it do despite all the limitations.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Yep. This is pretty much how I treat every outdated email/CMS/database system I have to learn. Sure, no one would want me to use it (hopefully!), but they're impressed when I tell them what I'm able to have it do despite all the limitations.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
