Just making sure it's still on the list! I know you said better ammo was an option.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
MARTINCOTY77
DR-KODIUS
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 02:54 AM CST
Yeah, better ammo is likely the final fix here. Though I've heard many reports that it is 100x better than 2.0. What are you having problems using it on?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
KAELRX
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 08:43 AM CST
With 7 more agility than I had in 2.0, and hunting the same creature, I'm actually missing occasionally with 69 Sling against Sand Sprites. I never missed in 2.0 and generally hit much harder. I'm using capped quartzite stone shards.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 09:21 AM CST
With 20 agility and capped shards, I rarely miss swain, and slaughter them. Missle mastery is 100ish, and I use khri half the time, but it doesn't seem to matter.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 02:14 PM CST
>>I'm actually missing occasionally with 69 Sling against Sand Sprites. I never missed in 2.0 and generally hit much harder. I'm using capped quartzite stone shards.
Missing's much much more frequent in 3.0. I wouldn't call it frequent by any means, but certainly much more frequent than 2.0, where you almost never missed hunting something at level.
Missing's much much more frequent in 3.0. I wouldn't call it frequent by any means, but certainly much more frequent than 2.0, where you almost never missed hunting something at level.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 02:22 PM CST
>>Yeah, better ammo is likely the final fix here. Though I've heard many reports that it is 100x better than 2.0. What are you having problems using it on?
No its way worse than 2.0. 2.0 I could one-hit everything. I posted several tests in the 3.0 folders against assassins.
Sling 950 ranks, ~average kill time 1 minute 30 seconds
LT 840 ranks, ~average kill time 20 seconds
Short Bow 500 ranks, ~average kill time 40 seconds.
LT is 4x better at over 100 ranks less.
Short bow is over 2x better at 450 ranks less.
here was an alternative idea I had:
Another alternative to sling damage would be to make sling be a multi-load system. It already does 5-10x less damage at level. Up damage slightly, and make it load 1-5 stones at a time depending on skill just like blades as a feature of sling. So if you typed load, and your next group of ammo in your container had at least 5 items in it and you had the skill, you would load 5 items with a single RT. It would make it unique as a ranged weapon, just like LT blades are unique for thrown weapons.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
No its way worse than 2.0. 2.0 I could one-hit everything. I posted several tests in the 3.0 folders against assassins.
Sling 950 ranks, ~average kill time 1 minute 30 seconds
LT 840 ranks, ~average kill time 20 seconds
Short Bow 500 ranks, ~average kill time 40 seconds.
LT is 4x better at over 100 ranks less.
Short bow is over 2x better at 450 ranks less.
here was an alternative idea I had:
Another alternative to sling damage would be to make sling be a multi-load system. It already does 5-10x less damage at level. Up damage slightly, and make it load 1-5 stones at a time depending on skill just like blades as a feature of sling. So if you typed load, and your next group of ammo in your container had at least 5 items in it and you had the skill, you would load 5 items with a single RT. It would make it unique as a ranged weapon, just like LT blades are unique for thrown weapons.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 02:28 PM CST
>>No its way worse than 2.0. 2.0 I could one-hit everything. I posted several tests in the 3.0 folders against assassins.
Mid 200s in sling and I'm doing notably better in both locking and damage. Granted, the bar for damage was pretty low for me in 2.0.
It's possible that sling damage is more "normalized", so people with super high end skill are seeing worse damage because their super-uber to-hit isn't contributing to damage while people like me are seeing better damage because our to-hits weren't high enough to make up for what would otherwise be lackluster 2.0 damage.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
Mid 200s in sling and I'm doing notably better in both locking and damage. Granted, the bar for damage was pretty low for me in 2.0.
It's possible that sling damage is more "normalized", so people with super high end skill are seeing worse damage because their super-uber to-hit isn't contributing to damage while people like me are seeing better damage because our to-hits weren't high enough to make up for what would otherwise be lackluster 2.0 damage.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 02:34 PM CST
>>It's possible that sling damage is more "normalized", so people with super high end skill are seeing worse damage because their super-uber to-hit isn't contributing to damage while people like me are seeing better damage because our to-hits weren't high enough to make up for what would otherwise be lackluster 2.0 damage.
I think you are spot on with your assessment. From 0-300 ranks sling was hellish and slowly started getting better the higher ranks I got, until it started hitting almost as hard as bow. Obviously the broken damage model made sling work ok at higher ranks. So I can definately see how the lower ranges did get better.
However, it's besides the point with the tests I have run. Is sling supposed to be way worse than something with 450 ranks less? Is sling supposed to be 5x slower to kill something at level? Is sling supposed to be so slow I can't even kill fast enough to beat out the passive degeneration of IF while in combat? :)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 06:45 PM CST
Codiax, can I assume you're using capped weapons on everything? If so, could the entire problem be that A: sling template are cringingly bad, B: sling ammo is nearly as bad? Especially when compared to capped bows and claymore-arrows?
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
LHALLFIN
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 07:36 PM CST
>Yeah, better ammo is likely the final fix here. Though I've heard many reports that it is 100x better than 2.0. What are you having problems using it on?
Its the exact same problem as Multi throwing blades.
At higher levels, where everything you're fighting has a lot of armor and vitality, the (now capped) damage + Armor Damage Resistance + Vitality Wound Resistance, basically has ruined the weapon for high level hunting, where it may be fine or even great at relatively low ranks.
Doubly so for slings when you consider things like full aim, and accuracy.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 08:04 PM CST
>>Its the exact same problem as Multi throwing blades.
hahaha not even close. One of the tests I compared were throwing blades vs assassins at 840 ranks. Average kill rate was ~20 seconds. No buffs whatsoever. Blades don't even need any help in PVE. Only thing blades were bad for are pvp against damage reducing abilities. Compare that to sling at 950 ranks with dragon up and the kill rate was 80+ seconds. I tested at all aim lengths.
Honestly I have seen no weapons that need help other than sling and staff sling. (I haven't tested pikes halberds or crossbows yet)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
hahaha not even close. One of the tests I compared were throwing blades vs assassins at 840 ranks. Average kill rate was ~20 seconds. No buffs whatsoever. Blades don't even need any help in PVE. Only thing blades were bad for are pvp against damage reducing abilities. Compare that to sling at 950 ranks with dragon up and the kill rate was 80+ seconds. I tested at all aim lengths.
Honestly I have seen no weapons that need help other than sling and staff sling. (I haven't tested pikes halberds or crossbows yet)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 08:26 PM CST
I don't know about blades, I for one cannot get any decent hits on critters with them, mostly glancing and at the most usually light. It might make a difference if you have a lot of strength since they are not suited very well.
LHALLFIN
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 09:05 PM CST
>hahaha not even close. One of the tests I compared were throwing blades vs assassins at 840 ranks. Average kill rate was ~20 seconds. No buffs whatsoever. Blades don't even need any help in PVE. Only thing blades were bad for are pvp against damage reducing abilities. Compare that to sling at 950 ranks with dragon up and the kill rate was 80+ seconds. I tested at all aim lengths
Right, where as a single strike LT at those same ranks, with the same critter is dead in 3 to 8 seconds, so why would you ever use multi-blades at 20 seconds. Slings are defiantly a lot further on down that slope, I'm certainly not saying they aren't.
In 2.0 they were both fantastic weapons, so whats changed to make them both... incredibly undesirable... at higher ranks?
What I believe is the answer to that question is exactly what I posted.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Sling damage
01/22/2013 09:16 PM CST
>>Right, where as a single strike LT at those same ranks, with the same critter is dead in 3 to 8 seconds
really???? Ok well I guess I will try that out then, sounds OP.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
really???? Ok well I guess I will try that out then, sounds OP.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
RMOORE
Re: Sling damage
01/23/2013 03:13 AM CST
for my new thief 1st - 10th sling has been zooming along much faster than small edges, about 3x faster to lock than scimitar. It not only trains much faster but until about 20 ranks it locked on one goblin where small edge was taking two or three. Terrific newbie weapon with the held shield you can just sit at melee and blast away every 15 seconds or so. The aiming bonus must make a big difference at this level as it hits 90+% vs about 40-50% for the scimitar. I have not tried the staff sling yet.
and kudos to whoever changed the critter ordering. makes it so much easier to plan blocks and move from target to target.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Sling damage
01/23/2013 06:14 AM CST
>>for my new thief 1st - 10th sling has been zooming along much faster than small edges, about 3x faster to lock than scimitar.
Yea exp gain is fine, thats why the thread title is called sling damage. I have nightmares about training sling in < 2003. misses didnt teach, grazing strikes didnt teach, you had to at least make a light hit, there was no ammo except store bought and no crafted slings because no one had sling ranks. If your critter had armor - forget it.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Yea exp gain is fine, thats why the thread title is called sling damage. I have nightmares about training sling in < 2003. misses didnt teach, grazing strikes didnt teach, you had to at least make a light hit, there was no ammo except store bought and no crafted slings because no one had sling ranks. If your critter had armor - forget it.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
DR-KODIUS
Re: Sling damage
01/23/2013 11:27 PM CST
There is always a chance to miss, even with 1500 ranks versus a rat in DR 3.0. This is the implementation of a critical miss. I've seen it happen where you can accidentally roll a 1 several times in close proximity, so try to observe a large sample size before drawing any conclusions.
Anyhow, sling uses the same calcs as melee and other ranged weapons. So you really shouldn't be hitting or missing at a different rate than with those.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Anyhow, sling uses the same calcs as melee and other ranged weapons. So you really shouldn't be hitting or missing at a different rate than with those.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Sling damage
01/23/2013 11:37 PM CST
I just upgraded the sling templates to better match arrow quality. Let me know how they feel... should help with hunting at the higher levels.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Sling damage
01/24/2013 06:30 AM CST
> I just upgraded the sling templates to better match arrow quality. Let me know how they feel... should help with hunting at the higher levels.
This is in effect to newly created sling ammo, right? Not going to back-effect already crafted/created ammo?
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
This is in effect to newly created sling ammo, right? Not going to back-effect already crafted/created ammo?
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
RAIST
Re: Sling damage
01/24/2013 07:48 AM CST
Wait, you upgraded slings or sling ammo?
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Sling damage
01/24/2013 08:26 AM CST
Hey Kodius is this something we need to create more ammo for I assume?
Thanks!
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Thanks!
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
DR-KODIUS
Re: Sling damage
01/24/2013 10:37 AM CST
Yes, new ammo only. Don't have sling making in yet.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
LHALLFIN
Re: Sling damage
01/24/2013 03:44 PM CST
>This is in effect to newly created sling ammo, right? Not going to back-effect already crafted/created ammo?
Now selling Diamondique boulders for 10k!
Just kidding... I wish I had another boulder to waste on sling ammo.
Seriously someone post or update the wiki with new sling ammo stats please.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Sling damage
01/24/2013 03:54 PM CST
>>Just kidding... I wish I had another boulder to waste on sling ammo.
Not to give Kodius more coding nightmares, but it would be cool if there was an NPC that could take an item previously made, "reassess" how it would turn out under an updated template or material stat or etc, and then give someone the option to have that update made.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
Not to give Kodius more coding nightmares, but it would be cool if there was an NPC that could take an item previously made, "reassess" how it would turn out under an updated template or material stat or etc, and then give someone the option to have that update made.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
RAIST
Re: Sling damage
01/24/2013 06:15 PM CST
>Seriously someone post or update the wiki with new sling ammo stats please.
Gimmie a bit. It's on my list.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Gimmie a bit. It's on my list.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
LHALLFIN
Re: Sling damage
01/24/2013 06:26 PM CST
>Gimmie a bit. It's on my list.
Sorry, I didn't mean like hurry up and get it done, I meant </end joke section of post> I'm dying to know what the new ones look like and how they perform in the field.
Not really any rush other than my extreme lack of patience and curiosity.
::reloads the wiki page::
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Sling damage
01/29/2013 01:35 PM CST
OLD TESTS
3 SECOND AIM
Load time = 2 seconds
Aim time = 3 seconds
fire time = 1 seconds
Inbetween time, probably ~.5 seconds for stowing ammo and reloading command.
So 6.5 seconds per shot.
Ammo: obsidian shards
953 ranks of Sling
10 Assassins, shots to kill:
12,13,15,15,10,10,16,11,8,8 = 118/10 = 11.8 average shots per kill.
So the Average is 76 seconds per kill, or 1 minute 16 seconds.
For those that don't do the recuded load from quiver, it would be 1 minute 28 seconds.
FULL AIM
Load time = 2 seconds
Aim time = 5.5 or 6 seconds
fire time = 1 seconds
Inbetween time, probably ~.5 seconds for stowing ammo and reloading command.
So 9 seconds per shot.
or 9.5 seconds per shot
Ammo: obsidian shards
953 ranks of Sling
10 Assassins, shots to kill:
12,9,10,11,10,10,10,9,8,8 = 97/10 = 9.7 average shots per kill.
So the Average is 87-92 seconds per kill, or 1 minute 27 seconds to 1 minute 32 seconds.
For those that don't do the recuded load from quiver, it would be 1 minute 57 seconds.
NEW TESTS
3 SECOND AIM
Load time = 2 seconds
Aim time = 3 seconds
fire time = 1 seconds
Inbetween time, probably ~.5 seconds for stowing ammo and reloading command.
So 6.5 seconds per shot.
Ammo: obsidian shards
965 ranks of Sling
10 Assassins, shots to kill:
7,8,7,9,7,8,8,11,8,9 = 82/10 = 8.2 average shots per kill.
So the Average is 53 seconds per kill.
FULL AIM
Load time = 2 seconds
Aim time = 5.5 or 6 seconds
fire time = 1 seconds
Inbetween time, probably ~.5 seconds for stowing ammo and reloading command.
So 9 seconds per shot.
or 9.5 seconds per shot
Ammo: obsidian shards
965 ranks of Sling
10 Assassins, shots to kill:
5,8,8,7,8,10,6,7,8,7 = 74/10 = 7.4 average shots per kill.
So the Average is 66-70 seconds per kill.
Thanks for working on this Kodius.
I'm pretty happy with the results of the new ammo (this was quartzite shards btw). It leaves plenty of room to improve in the rare ammo category. And also room to improve if you use a better sling. They are coming out soon right!? :)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
3 SECOND AIM
Load time = 2 seconds
Aim time = 3 seconds
fire time = 1 seconds
Inbetween time, probably ~.5 seconds for stowing ammo and reloading command.
So 6.5 seconds per shot.
Ammo: obsidian shards
953 ranks of Sling
10 Assassins, shots to kill:
12,13,15,15,10,10,16,11,8,8 = 118/10 = 11.8 average shots per kill.
So the Average is 76 seconds per kill, or 1 minute 16 seconds.
For those that don't do the recuded load from quiver, it would be 1 minute 28 seconds.
FULL AIM
Load time = 2 seconds
Aim time = 5.5 or 6 seconds
fire time = 1 seconds
Inbetween time, probably ~.5 seconds for stowing ammo and reloading command.
So 9 seconds per shot.
or 9.5 seconds per shot
Ammo: obsidian shards
953 ranks of Sling
10 Assassins, shots to kill:
12,9,10,11,10,10,10,9,8,8 = 97/10 = 9.7 average shots per kill.
So the Average is 87-92 seconds per kill, or 1 minute 27 seconds to 1 minute 32 seconds.
For those that don't do the recuded load from quiver, it would be 1 minute 57 seconds.
NEW TESTS
3 SECOND AIM
Load time = 2 seconds
Aim time = 3 seconds
fire time = 1 seconds
Inbetween time, probably ~.5 seconds for stowing ammo and reloading command.
So 6.5 seconds per shot.
Ammo: obsidian shards
965 ranks of Sling
10 Assassins, shots to kill:
7,8,7,9,7,8,8,11,8,9 = 82/10 = 8.2 average shots per kill.
So the Average is 53 seconds per kill.
FULL AIM
Load time = 2 seconds
Aim time = 5.5 or 6 seconds
fire time = 1 seconds
Inbetween time, probably ~.5 seconds for stowing ammo and reloading command.
So 9 seconds per shot.
or 9.5 seconds per shot
Ammo: obsidian shards
965 ranks of Sling
10 Assassins, shots to kill:
5,8,8,7,8,10,6,7,8,7 = 74/10 = 7.4 average shots per kill.
So the Average is 66-70 seconds per kill.
Thanks for working on this Kodius.
I'm pretty happy with the results of the new ammo (this was quartzite shards btw). It leaves plenty of room to improve in the rare ammo category. And also room to improve if you use a better sling. They are coming out soon right!? :)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
DR-KODIUS
Re: Sling damage
01/30/2013 09:12 PM CST
Haha, hopefully this weekend I have time to pound out some more leather/bone templates, and work on the new combo system...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
BEVERAGEK
Re: Sling damage
01/30/2013 09:59 PM CST
>>work on the new combo system...
For Expertise? Or for regular combat maneuvers?
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
For Expertise? Or for regular combat maneuvers?
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
DR-KODIUS
Re: Sling damage
01/31/2013 01:01 AM CST
I want to make a general combo system that everyone can start playing with. It won't be terribly complicated. 4 combos you can "roll" when you ANALYZE an enemy (tactics skillcheck). Expertise and Endurance users will get an expanded system built on top of this most likely. I want to see how useful people find the combos before I go investing a few weeks finishing off the other systems.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Sling damage
01/31/2013 06:57 AM CST
So sling is leather or cloth or both? I guess either or is both in tailoring? so it doesn't matter too much.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
NINEVAH1
