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>Attack is a damage dealing maneuver.
Attack tends to be a fatiguing maneuver.
Attack tends to be balance neutral. Attacking again too soon can make this worse.
Attack is a reasonably paced maneuver, but heavy or unbalanced weapons can slow the attack further.
Attack is as accurate as most maneuvers, and is equally suited to puncture, slice, and impact weapons.
Attack temporarily penalizes all defenses, but is equally suited to evasion, parry, and shield defenses.
When the combo system was released I was so vehemently opposed to it that I quit DR for 3+ years. It was only because the ATTACK verb exists that I began playing again. I really hope we are not being forced down the road where it takes a tactical genius to use the system. My character uses LE primarily which is a quick, low damage weapon, but according to the above I can't continue to use ATTACK in quick succession because it will tank balance.
What I am driving at is despite being told the accursed combo system was going the way of the Dodo, it seems to be rearing its ugly head again in a slightly different guise. At the moment, ATTACK picks out a standard combo for the weapon. It is not perfect but it suits me, and I am hoping I will not have to memorise a list of commands for each weapon.
So will there be a one size fits all verb we can use?
ICON1
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 12:03 PM CST
>>My character uses LE primarily which is a quick, low damage weapon, but according to the above I can't continue to use ATTACK in quick succession because it will tank balance.
AFAIK, doing any move right after the RT ends is generally non-good for balance.
>>So will there be a one size fits all verb we can use?
I think one of the major things of 3.0 is to remove the "this is the thing everyone should always do because it is the best thing to do" aspect of combat. That's why weapons and armor were redone, so it doesn't surprise me that there isn't a "best" choice for what to do when actually in combat.
But, if you wanted something that was the sliced white bread of combat moves, that's what ATTACK does. It works well for any kind of weapon type, any kind of defense type, does not help or hurt balance, is of average accuracy, and can ding your balance if you use it too quickly one after another (like most other attacks). Of course, if you want to fix the last part, just don't spam "attack/attack/attack/attack/attack". Pause two or three seconds between each attack's RT expiring, or something.
AFAIK, doing any move right after the RT ends is generally non-good for balance.
>>So will there be a one size fits all verb we can use?
I think one of the major things of 3.0 is to remove the "this is the thing everyone should always do because it is the best thing to do" aspect of combat. That's why weapons and armor were redone, so it doesn't surprise me that there isn't a "best" choice for what to do when actually in combat.
But, if you wanted something that was the sliced white bread of combat moves, that's what ATTACK does. It works well for any kind of weapon type, any kind of defense type, does not help or hurt balance, is of average accuracy, and can ding your balance if you use it too quickly one after another (like most other attacks). Of course, if you want to fix the last part, just don't spam "attack/attack/attack/attack/attack". Pause two or three seconds between each attack's RT expiring, or something.
ICON1
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 12:22 PM CST
>But, if you wanted something that was the sliced white bread of combat moves, that's what ATTACK does. It works well for any kind of weapon type, any kind of defense type, does not help or hurt balance, is of average accuracy, and can ding your balance if you use it too quickly one after another (like most other attacks). Of course, if you want to fix the last part, just don't spam "attack/attack/attack/attack/attack". Pause two or three seconds between each attack's RT expiring, or something.
That's what I am looking for yes, so as long as there is a LE specific verb that I can spam then I am happy. ATTACK isn't really going to fit the bill as what is the point of attacking with a LE every 5 seconds?
>AFAIK, doing any move right after the RT ends is generally non-good for balance.
There is a shadow of doubt rising in my mind about the usefulness of LE in the new system now. If you can't use one rapidly as is the case now, you are going to be encountering some serious problems. Swinging a LE slowly will mean dinging something to death, not exactly desirable when it will also be the case that having lots of opponents can lead to a quick demise.
That's what I am looking for yes, so as long as there is a LE specific verb that I can spam then I am happy. ATTACK isn't really going to fit the bill as what is the point of attacking with a LE every 5 seconds?
>AFAIK, doing any move right after the RT ends is generally non-good for balance.
There is a shadow of doubt rising in my mind about the usefulness of LE in the new system now. If you can't use one rapidly as is the case now, you are going to be encountering some serious problems. Swinging a LE slowly will mean dinging something to death, not exactly desirable when it will also be the case that having lots of opponents can lead to a quick demise.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 12:47 PM CST
>>That's what I am looking for yes, so as long as there is a LE specific verb that I can spam then I am happy.
There is no specific verb that will let you spam anything, ever.
>>ATTACK isn't really going to fit the bill as what is the point of attacking with a LE every 5 seconds?
Balance isn't won't be the be-all-end-all in 3.0. You might be okay with being off balance and striking every 2 seconds. Or you might want to use FEINT to get some balance back, then spam more ATTACK. Or you might want to wait every 5 seconds despite just getting 2 second RTs (random number, mind you), while keeping in mind someone with a heavier weapon will most likely have to wait even longer with their RT + balance penalty cooldown.
It also wouldn't surprise me that the "temporary penalty" to defense people get when doing certain attacks are tied to RT, not the secondary balance cooldown thing. So someone with a very light/fast weapon will be penalized a shorter amount of time because their weapons work "faster", so they're set to be defensive all the quicker than someone with a bigger/slower weapon.
One thing to keep in mind, as far as I understand it, is that one of the major points of combat 3.0 is to create fights that last longer than 10-15 seconds, or at least when fighting at-level. They're supposed to be a bit more drawn out. You're not meant to be blasting through a nonstop waves of enemies, but having more "dramatic" battles where things don't end after two or three hits.
There is no specific verb that will let you spam anything, ever.
>>ATTACK isn't really going to fit the bill as what is the point of attacking with a LE every 5 seconds?
Balance isn't won't be the be-all-end-all in 3.0. You might be okay with being off balance and striking every 2 seconds. Or you might want to use FEINT to get some balance back, then spam more ATTACK. Or you might want to wait every 5 seconds despite just getting 2 second RTs (random number, mind you), while keeping in mind someone with a heavier weapon will most likely have to wait even longer with their RT + balance penalty cooldown.
It also wouldn't surprise me that the "temporary penalty" to defense people get when doing certain attacks are tied to RT, not the secondary balance cooldown thing. So someone with a very light/fast weapon will be penalized a shorter amount of time because their weapons work "faster", so they're set to be defensive all the quicker than someone with a bigger/slower weapon.
One thing to keep in mind, as far as I understand it, is that one of the major points of combat 3.0 is to create fights that last longer than 10-15 seconds, or at least when fighting at-level. They're supposed to be a bit more drawn out. You're not meant to be blasting through a nonstop waves of enemies, but having more "dramatic" battles where things don't end after two or three hits.
ICON1
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 03:36 PM CST
>One thing to keep in mind, as far as I understand it, is that one of the major points of combat 3.0 is to create fights that last longer than 10-15 seconds, or at least when fighting at-level. They're supposed to be a bit more drawn out. You're not meant to be blasting through a nonstop waves of enemies, but having more "dramatic" battles where things don't end after two or three hits.
Thanks for replying by the way, don't think I am just arguing or anything but there are a few things niggling at me over this.
I was under the impression that MO situations will no longer be as easy to cope with so you will need to be able to dispatch enemies quickly if needed, especially as fast retreat will no longer be possible. If as you say fights will be more drawn out then that would be a point of concern as someone could get overwhelmed while they plink away at a critter, especially with a low damage weapon.
Also all this talk of a 'cooldown' - surely just incorporate it into RT instead of having some invisible, uncertain timer.
Is combat going to involve as much player skill as PC skill in future?
Thanks for replying by the way, don't think I am just arguing or anything but there are a few things niggling at me over this.
I was under the impression that MO situations will no longer be as easy to cope with so you will need to be able to dispatch enemies quickly if needed, especially as fast retreat will no longer be possible. If as you say fights will be more drawn out then that would be a point of concern as someone could get overwhelmed while they plink away at a critter, especially with a low damage weapon.
Also all this talk of a 'cooldown' - surely just incorporate it into RT instead of having some invisible, uncertain timer.
Is combat going to involve as much player skill as PC skill in future?
BEVERAGEK
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 04:09 PM CST
>>Also all this talk of a 'cooldown' - surely just incorporate it into RT instead of having some invisible, uncertain timer.
No. There are plenty of things I could do after an attack that doesn't include attacking again, so I would prefer if that time wasn't taken up with pointless RT.
I am very much a fan of lower RTs and common sense which dictates that I probably shouldn't button mash the attack button as soon as RT finishes unless I want to potentially lose balance.
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
No. There are plenty of things I could do after an attack that doesn't include attacking again, so I would prefer if that time wasn't taken up with pointless RT.
I am very much a fan of lower RTs and common sense which dictates that I probably shouldn't button mash the attack button as soon as RT finishes unless I want to potentially lose balance.
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 04:20 PM CST
>>I was under the impression that MO situations will no longer be as easy to cope with so you will need to be able to dispatch enemies quickly if needed, especially as fast retreat will no longer be possible. If as you say fights will be more drawn out then that would be a point of concern as someone could get overwhelmed while they plink away at a critter, especially with a low damage weapon.
It's my understanding (I know I'm prefacing with this a lot, but not a GM so my knowledge is just based on my vague recollection of things on the boards) that combat, in the very very very long run, will be more "balanced" so that there are no "wrong" choices.
Because the GMs want every way of fighting to essentially take the same amount of time to "kill" a mob. As far as I know, the GMs are striving for some kind of exp granted "equality". If it takes 2 seconds to swing a LE, and 5 seconds to swing a 2HE, then in 10 seconds of combat you'll get roughly the equivalent amount of exp. And if the amount of exp is roughly equivalent, it wouldn't surprise me if the "time to kill something" is also equivalent.
It also wouldn't shock me if there's a reassessment of critter spawn rates in 3.0 - if we're not supposed to fight 3-4 mobs at a time, it would make very little sense to have 3-4 spawn at the same moment and attack you. Being overwhelmed my critters will probably be limited to either being over your head combat-wise, dancing with mobs instead of fighting them, and invasions.
As a slight tangent, my concern is how treasure rates are going to function in 3.0. Since it'll take [notably?] longer to kill a mob, do we get more treasure per mob? Will the chance of getting things like scrolls, maps, and other assorted rares be adjusted? For repeat quests like Quelling the Riot, will mobs drop more scrip per kill? Not sure if that stuff falls in Dart's realm, though.
It's my understanding (I know I'm prefacing with this a lot, but not a GM so my knowledge is just based on my vague recollection of things on the boards) that combat, in the very very very long run, will be more "balanced" so that there are no "wrong" choices.
Because the GMs want every way of fighting to essentially take the same amount of time to "kill" a mob. As far as I know, the GMs are striving for some kind of exp granted "equality". If it takes 2 seconds to swing a LE, and 5 seconds to swing a 2HE, then in 10 seconds of combat you'll get roughly the equivalent amount of exp. And if the amount of exp is roughly equivalent, it wouldn't surprise me if the "time to kill something" is also equivalent.
It also wouldn't shock me if there's a reassessment of critter spawn rates in 3.0 - if we're not supposed to fight 3-4 mobs at a time, it would make very little sense to have 3-4 spawn at the same moment and attack you. Being overwhelmed my critters will probably be limited to either being over your head combat-wise, dancing with mobs instead of fighting them, and invasions.
As a slight tangent, my concern is how treasure rates are going to function in 3.0. Since it'll take [notably?] longer to kill a mob, do we get more treasure per mob? Will the chance of getting things like scrolls, maps, and other assorted rares be adjusted? For repeat quests like Quelling the Riot, will mobs drop more scrip per kill? Not sure if that stuff falls in Dart's realm, though.
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 04:24 PM CST
> Also all this talk of a 'cooldown' - surely just incorporate it into RT instead of having some invisible, uncertain timer.
I've been asked to slow combat down a bit. I -could- just slow down critters by a few seconds and likewise increase player roundtimes by a few seconds to maintain the balance, but I'm pretty sure forcing all-around increased roundtimes would upset...well...almost everyone. To a rather large degree. Instead, what I've done is create a situation where you can still go as fast as always, but there is -incentive- to slow down a little from time to time.
So no, I'm not going to incorporate it into roundtimes. Both for that reason, and because that would mean nobody would ever lose balance in combat unless we go back to something like combos, which is also not an option. With that said, there are a few styles that are deliberately set up so that the minimum roundtime is also usually enough to at least prevent balance loss, if not always result in a gain. Jab is the best example of this.
It's really not that complicated a system once you play with it, or at least it won't be once all the bugs are out. You launch your attacks. If you are lazy or just don't want to bother, just using ATTACK will be a perfectly valid option for almost all at-level hunting, just not necessarily the best for every situation (but likewise never the worst). If you find your balance getting lower than you like, slow down a little (just wait a second or two after the roundtime ends) and/or switch to a balance friendly attack like Jab until the balance is back up to where you like.
I will be completely honest -- it will not be nearly as easy to achieve and maintain high end balance, and doing so will mean both focusing on the lighter more controlled attacks like jab as well as slowing down. Let me explain why; if it is a simple matter to climb right to the highest balance and stay there virtually indefinitely (and that's largely the case now via ATTACK or scripting/macroing/knowing the combos), then there's no real reason to even have balance as a major factor. It becomes something of non-factor when everyone can get to the highest balance and stay there virtually indefinitely after a few attacks. It's not unlike Syndrome's take on super powers -- if everyone is has the highest possible balance, nobody has any advantage whatsoever.
Seriously, though, it won't be that difficult to play with once you get the hang of it, especially if you just want to cruise along via a couple of favorite commands like Jab and Attack. Those who want to take advantage of the vast array of pros/cons can do so and will certainly benefit from it and can probably win fights that might normally be a bit beyond them, but it is designed so that getting fancy isn't necessary for at-level hunting under normal circumstances.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
I've been asked to slow combat down a bit. I -could- just slow down critters by a few seconds and likewise increase player roundtimes by a few seconds to maintain the balance, but I'm pretty sure forcing all-around increased roundtimes would upset...well...almost everyone. To a rather large degree. Instead, what I've done is create a situation where you can still go as fast as always, but there is -incentive- to slow down a little from time to time.
So no, I'm not going to incorporate it into roundtimes. Both for that reason, and because that would mean nobody would ever lose balance in combat unless we go back to something like combos, which is also not an option. With that said, there are a few styles that are deliberately set up so that the minimum roundtime is also usually enough to at least prevent balance loss, if not always result in a gain. Jab is the best example of this.
It's really not that complicated a system once you play with it, or at least it won't be once all the bugs are out. You launch your attacks. If you are lazy or just don't want to bother, just using ATTACK will be a perfectly valid option for almost all at-level hunting, just not necessarily the best for every situation (but likewise never the worst). If you find your balance getting lower than you like, slow down a little (just wait a second or two after the roundtime ends) and/or switch to a balance friendly attack like Jab until the balance is back up to where you like.
I will be completely honest -- it will not be nearly as easy to achieve and maintain high end balance, and doing so will mean both focusing on the lighter more controlled attacks like jab as well as slowing down. Let me explain why; if it is a simple matter to climb right to the highest balance and stay there virtually indefinitely (and that's largely the case now via ATTACK or scripting/macroing/knowing the combos), then there's no real reason to even have balance as a major factor. It becomes something of non-factor when everyone can get to the highest balance and stay there virtually indefinitely after a few attacks. It's not unlike Syndrome's take on super powers -- if everyone is has the highest possible balance, nobody has any advantage whatsoever.
Seriously, though, it won't be that difficult to play with once you get the hang of it, especially if you just want to cruise along via a couple of favorite commands like Jab and Attack. Those who want to take advantage of the vast array of pros/cons can do so and will certainly benefit from it and can probably win fights that might normally be a bit beyond them, but it is designed so that getting fancy isn't necessary for at-level hunting under normal circumstances.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
NEELD
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 06:12 PM CST
<<They do need to be addressed, but they are outside the scope of Combat 3.0. On the other hand, any melee or missile attack will be part of Combat 3.0, so yes, backstab, ambush, poach, and snipe will ultimately fall under the Combat 3.0 mechanics, just like they ultimately run through the current combat mechanics now. At the present time, I'm not really planning to change anything other than making sure they remain compatible and playable with the new Combat 3.0 mechanics, so ideally they should still work roughly like they do now.
Dart: Ok, that is pretty disappointing at least from my point of view which is (granted) from the perspective of a paladin player.
Madigan
Dart: Ok, that is pretty disappointing at least from my point of view which is (granted) from the perspective of a paladin player.
Madigan
ICON1
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 06:21 PM CST
>I've been asked to slow combat down a bit.
Thanks for the replies.
Curious as to the reasoning behind slowing it down though. It's not like there is much that is exciting to do when training which is why I don't script combat (apart from backstab, ugh) as that is the only part that doesn't make my eyes glaze over. I suppose that is why I don't want to have a large amount of combat commands to learn, it is not laziness - I could script it if I wanted to be lazy.
Anyway I appreciate the responses (from all) and I suppose I will have to PAFO to see if it works for me. I was also going to mention treasure as that crossed my mind too but I suspect that less loot is a contributing motivation for slowing things down.
Thanks for the replies.
Curious as to the reasoning behind slowing it down though. It's not like there is much that is exciting to do when training which is why I don't script combat (apart from backstab, ugh) as that is the only part that doesn't make my eyes glaze over. I suppose that is why I don't want to have a large amount of combat commands to learn, it is not laziness - I could script it if I wanted to be lazy.
Anyway I appreciate the responses (from all) and I suppose I will have to PAFO to see if it works for me. I was also going to mention treasure as that crossed my mind too but I suspect that less loot is a contributing motivation for slowing things down.
SHADOW7988
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 07:14 PM CST
To Icon;
My point of view of the slower combat means the following.
Less scroll to deal with.
Less need to have spawn at dramatic amounts.
More from a GM / World Control Point of View:
Lower the amount of coin and gems entering into the world.
I think this also is supposed to help against gaming experience to an extent...
And of course I don't know everything so I may be missing something.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
My point of view of the slower combat means the following.
Less scroll to deal with.
Less need to have spawn at dramatic amounts.
More from a GM / World Control Point of View:
Lower the amount of coin and gems entering into the world.
I think this also is supposed to help against gaming experience to an extent...
And of course I don't know everything so I may be missing something.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 07:30 PM CST
>>Curious as to the reasoning behind slowing it down though.
I have come to discover, much to my dismay, that about half the population's combat strategy consists of getting four critters at melee and then doing nothing at all for extended periods of time. I do this to some degree as well, to learn multi as a Barb or Shield as a Paladin, etc.
Regardless, some of the most high-traffic areas in the game (gryphons, celpeze) sometimes have their spawned ruined because 3 people in the area decide to sit with 4 critters on them without killing anything for hours on end. Without mind state, they're not penalized for doing so. I think slowing down combat is a fantastic idea. It would help latency issues, it would fix the spawn issue, and it would go a long way towards solving the economy's ever-growing inflation.
I have come to discover, much to my dismay, that about half the population's combat strategy consists of getting four critters at melee and then doing nothing at all for extended periods of time. I do this to some degree as well, to learn multi as a Barb or Shield as a Paladin, etc.
Regardless, some of the most high-traffic areas in the game (gryphons, celpeze) sometimes have their spawned ruined because 3 people in the area decide to sit with 4 critters on them without killing anything for hours on end. Without mind state, they're not penalized for doing so. I think slowing down combat is a fantastic idea. It would help latency issues, it would fix the spawn issue, and it would go a long way towards solving the economy's ever-growing inflation.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 07:55 PM CST
Slowing down combat has nothing to do with preventing people from standing against 4 creatures indefinitely.
Adding danger to standing against anything above 2 at level creatures has everything to do with preventing people from standing against 4 creatures indefinitely.
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
Adding danger to standing against anything above 2 at level creatures has everything to do with preventing people from standing against 4 creatures indefinitely.
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Help
02/07/2012 11:13 PM CST
>>Adding danger to standing against anything above 2 at level creatures has everything to do with preventing people from standing against 4 creatures indefinitely.
The two are related. More danger + longer time to kill stuff.
The two are related. More danger + longer time to kill stuff.
DURATHING
Re: Combat Help
02/08/2012 02:42 AM CST
Will we have an ability to maintain a given combat range (say, missile?) against creatures that are attempting to advance against us? Hangback as it stands now can quickly give way to near-chain RT. Otherwise, I see mining in a number of areas becoming impractical.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Help
02/08/2012 04:08 AM CST
>>Will we have an ability to maintain a given combat range (say, missile?) against creatures that are attempting to advance against us? Hangback as it stands now can quickly give way to near-chain RT. Otherwise, I see mining in a number of areas becoming impractical.
HANGBACK s being rewritten. I am interested to see how it works. It needs to be biased considerably towards melee, IMO, to make PvP more balanced, but then it still needs to be viable for you to avoid combat with puny little time-wasting mobs.
HANGBACK s being rewritten. I am interested to see how it works. It needs to be biased considerably towards melee, IMO, to make PvP more balanced, but then it still needs to be viable for you to avoid combat with puny little time-wasting mobs.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Combat Help
02/08/2012 04:31 AM CST
i wish you could designate hangback against one critter and not another for multi-critter areas.
for instance, take the crossing sewers. You have thugs, which are perfect for one of my characters. Then you have those annoying silverfish...
Preces meae non sunt dignae;Sed tu bonus fac benigne;Ne perenni cremer igne [Dies Irae]
for instance, take the crossing sewers. You have thugs, which are perfect for one of my characters. Then you have those annoying silverfish...
Preces meae non sunt dignae;Sed tu bonus fac benigne;Ne perenni cremer igne [Dies Irae]
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Help
02/08/2012 05:57 AM CST
As long as it's well-implemented, biased towards melee at-level, and there is a HANGBACK POLE RANGE option, I'm golden.
RANTHIL1
Re: Combat Help
02/10/2012 12:40 PM CST
<<I've been asked to slow combat down a bit. I -could- just slow down critters by a few seconds and likewise increase player roundtimes by a few seconds to maintain the balance, but I'm pretty sure forcing all-around increased roundtimes would upset...well...almost everyone. To a rather large degree. Instead, what I've done is create a situation where you can still go as fast as always, but there is -incentive- to slow down a little from time to time.
I am a fan of this (not increasing RTs, but encouraging space between), as I think it'll allow for more dynamic combat. Chance to prep a combat spell, maybe do something tactical in between swings, etc.
I'm also hoping combat will be more dynamic. Beyond attack being a viable move, I really hope that we'll be able to do something like: opponent SWINGS at you. Within X period of time, if you DUCK (let's say it's a tactic move) then your next hit gets a better chance to hit since they're out of position.
DR Armorcrafting 3.0:
http://tinyurl.com/drarmor3
DR Blacksmithing Tools 3.0:
http://www.tinyurl.com/DRBSTools3
DR Crafting Calc:
http://tinyurl.com/DRCraftCalc
I am a fan of this (not increasing RTs, but encouraging space between), as I think it'll allow for more dynamic combat. Chance to prep a combat spell, maybe do something tactical in between swings, etc.
I'm also hoping combat will be more dynamic. Beyond attack being a viable move, I really hope that we'll be able to do something like: opponent SWINGS at you. Within X period of time, if you DUCK (let's say it's a tactic move) then your next hit gets a better chance to hit since they're out of position.
DR Armorcrafting 3.0:
http://tinyurl.com/drarmor3
DR Blacksmithing Tools 3.0:
http://www.tinyurl.com/DRBSTools3
DR Crafting Calc:
http://tinyurl.com/DRCraftCalc
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Help
02/10/2012 01:06 PM CST
Combat slowed down, armor much more valuable, a new lore combat skill.
I for one welcome our new Trader overlords.
I for one welcome our new Trader overlords.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 08:25 AM CST
<<Combat slowed down, armor much more valuable, a new lore combat skill.
I for one welcome our new Trader overlords>>
my concern basically concerns giving RETREAT a RT.
Currently, If you are typing it out and not using a script, or if you end a script and, if you want to go to town to go sell your skins, for very young characters, I have 4 seperate character who are level 10 -13, who all fight in grass eels. A paladin, a WM, a bard, and a thief. The Thief and the paladin both have no problem retreating, and then going to the ledge. Both the bard and the WM have problems retreating. And when you combine that with my carpal - to penalize those who can't type fast enough to get out of an area without abusing mechanics <i've always been under the assumption that just logging out was mechanics abuse>, seems an unreasonable burden to place on my poor hands.
Preces meae non sunt dignae;Sed tu bonus fac benigne;Ne perenni cremer igne [Dies Irae]
I for one welcome our new Trader overlords>>
my concern basically concerns giving RETREAT a RT.
Currently, If you are typing it out and not using a script, or if you end a script and, if you want to go to town to go sell your skins, for very young characters, I have 4 seperate character who are level 10 -13, who all fight in grass eels. A paladin, a WM, a bard, and a thief. The Thief and the paladin both have no problem retreating, and then going to the ledge. Both the bard and the WM have problems retreating. And when you combine that with my carpal - to penalize those who can't type fast enough to get out of an area without abusing mechanics <i've always been under the assumption that just logging out was mechanics abuse>, seems an unreasonable burden to place on my poor hands.
Preces meae non sunt dignae;Sed tu bonus fac benigne;Ne perenni cremer igne [Dies Irae]
BEVERAGEK
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 09:37 AM CST
>>Both the bard and the WM have problems retreating.
FLEE <direction> will get you to where you need to go with one command.
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
FLEE <direction> will get you to where you need to go with one command.
~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!
MARGASH
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 01:00 PM CST
>Once Combat 3.0 is more firmly in place, we'll review the stealth attacks and see if anything needs to be adjusted.
>Dart: Ok, that is pretty disappointing at least from my point of view which is (granted) from the perspective of a paladin player.
Dart's approach is right on and intelligent.
You don't change many variables at once. Tweak one, see its effects, then tweak another. Makes sense.
>Dart: Ok, that is pretty disappointing at least from my point of view which is (granted) from the perspective of a paladin player.
Dart's approach is right on and intelligent.
You don't change many variables at once. Tweak one, see its effects, then tweak another. Makes sense.
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 01:14 PM CST
>>my concern basically concerns giving RETREAT a RT.
I tend to agree, retreat shouldn't have a RT look how disastrous hangback can be because of this. Haven't used it in years but I have the distinct memory of having to rescue a friend from goblins, a creature he could kill with a glance because he had hangback on and went into swarm room. The constant roundtime literally locked him into place.
Failing a retreat should trigger a cooldown that prevents you from attempting the retreat again, its just an outright fail message. But no roundtime should be associated with it.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 03:06 PM CST
>>my concern basically concerns giving RETREAT a RT.
Retreat isn't being given a RT. Retreat will just take time to actually happen, similar to advance.
If you ever want to retreat with a better promise of being able to retreat, use FLEE.
The fact that people with bad wrists could have trouble typing in a game that is nothing but typing is a bit... silly for an argument as to why you might not want to type too much. You can't get more accommodating for those people than the scripting systems through the multiple clients the game supports. If you want to argue that you need a better computer to use those clients, I think there is an eventual "wall" where the onus shouldn't be on the game to accommodate things for the user, and the user just needs to acknowledge they need to buy a new computer.
Retreat isn't being given a RT. Retreat will just take time to actually happen, similar to advance.
If you ever want to retreat with a better promise of being able to retreat, use FLEE.
The fact that people with bad wrists could have trouble typing in a game that is nothing but typing is a bit... silly for an argument as to why you might not want to type too much. You can't get more accommodating for those people than the scripting systems through the multiple clients the game supports. If you want to argue that you need a better computer to use those clients, I think there is an eventual "wall" where the onus shouldn't be on the game to accommodate things for the user, and the user just needs to acknowledge they need to buy a new computer.
COVERG
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 03:38 PM CST
I LOVE the idea of retreat taking as long as advance! Being a melee fighter I so frustrated but taking multiple seconds to advance but retreat retreat to get back to missle in 0 time truely frustrated me. This whole concept is GREAT!
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss
NELSONC110
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 03:57 PM CST
the problem with the retreat thing, though i think its a great idea is some classes cannot utilize flee without penalty. a barbarian flees he takes a fire hit. so tactically its not really viable for a barbarian to be fleeing. needs to be other ways of getting to pole/missle range to get away. or a hangback thats actually worth it.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 04:21 PM CST
>>a barbarian flees he takes a fire hit. so tactically its not really viable for a barbarian to be fleeing. needs to be other ways of getting to pole/missle range to get away. or a hangback thats actually worth it.
Hangback is being rewritten.
Serpent's Hiss of Warning (the roar that makes the monsters instantly flee the room) is staying. It might be renamed, but unless something has changed, Barbarians will still have a roar that does a similar function.
Retreat is just going to have some time, FLEE is going to be less of a death sentence, and hangback should be more viable. On top of that, most guilds already have or will be getting things to let them deal with emergency situations that require instant departure from combat (Serpent's Hiss of Warning, Ring of Spears, Fortress of Ice, Halo, Contigency, fir familiars dragging a Warrior Mage who is stunned, Protect Self, Scream Defiance... that's just off the top of my head).
Hangback is being rewritten.
Serpent's Hiss of Warning (the roar that makes the monsters instantly flee the room) is staying. It might be renamed, but unless something has changed, Barbarians will still have a roar that does a similar function.
Retreat is just going to have some time, FLEE is going to be less of a death sentence, and hangback should be more viable. On top of that, most guilds already have or will be getting things to let them deal with emergency situations that require instant departure from combat (Serpent's Hiss of Warning, Ring of Spears, Fortress of Ice, Halo, Contigency, fir familiars dragging a Warrior Mage who is stunned, Protect Self, Scream Defiance... that's just off the top of my head).
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 04:46 PM CST
>>the problem with the retreat thing, though i think its a great idea is some classes cannot utilize flee without penalty.
So? If it's anything like the soul hit a Paladin currently gets for advancing while hiding (or fleeing!), it's negligible unless you make a daily habit out of it.
So? If it's anything like the soul hit a Paladin currently gets for advancing while hiding (or fleeing!), it's negligible unless you make a daily habit out of it.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 04:48 PM CST
>>So? If it's anything like the soul hit a Paladin currently gets for advancing while hiding (or fleeing!), it's negligible unless you make a daily habit out of it.
I often use FLEE just to train escaping while back-training weapons. The inner fire hit is negligible if you are killing constantly, even if you're fleeing as quickly as the timer allows.
I often use FLEE just to train escaping while back-training weapons. The inner fire hit is negligible if you are killing constantly, even if you're fleeing as quickly as the timer allows.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 05:06 PM CST
I thought I heard of possibly that inner fire hit being removed.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
MARGASH
Re: Combat Help
02/11/2012 11:08 PM CST
the problem with RT on retreat is melee weapons take zero effort to train.
they shouldn't be as powerful as missile weapons considering how simple to train they are. especially considering you can parry with them, too!
they shouldn't be as powerful as missile weapons considering how simple to train they are. especially considering you can parry with them, too!
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Help
02/12/2012 02:29 AM CST
>>the problem with RT on retreat is melee weapons take zero effort to train.
I'm pretty sure grinding literally 1,000,000 mob kills to level 150 would say otherwise.
>>they shouldn't be as powerful as missile weapons considering how simple to train they are. especially considering you can parry with them, too!
You need to program a couple extra commands into your script? Yeah, that's super tough!
I'm pretty sure grinding literally 1,000,000 mob kills to level 150 would say otherwise.
>>they shouldn't be as powerful as missile weapons considering how simple to train they are. especially considering you can parry with them, too!
You need to program a couple extra commands into your script? Yeah, that's super tough!
COVERG
Re: Combat Help
02/12/2012 03:22 AM CST
I think invoke bond throw is about as easy to train as something gets! Or invoke bond throw loot skin.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss
ELWYNN
SCHULTZS3
Re: Combat Help
02/12/2012 12:51 PM CST
>I'm pretty sure grinding literally 1,000,000 mob kills to level 150 would say otherwise.
No different than every other skill.
I'm sure he's referring to the fact that one can essentially make a script like this:
start:
put attack
waitfor roundtime
goto start
And be set for life.
Whereas if you've got a missile weapon, you've got to check your range if you aren't skilled enough to dance at engagement cap with a ranged weapon, check you're loaded, check your aim, check your armor (shield)...
Personally, I mostly use thrown and get the best of both worlds somewhat.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
No different than every other skill.
I'm sure he's referring to the fact that one can essentially make a script like this:
start:
put attack
waitfor roundtime
goto start
And be set for life.
Whereas if you've got a missile weapon, you've got to check your range if you aren't skilled enough to dance at engagement cap with a ranged weapon, check you're loaded, check your aim, check your armor (shield)...
Personally, I mostly use thrown and get the best of both worlds somewhat.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
KASRKYN
Re: Combat Help
02/12/2012 01:38 PM CST
<<Does slower combat mean slower experience gain?>>
One of the things being changed is how much experience you gain from actions, so we currently have no way to know for certain what the outcome will be. I imagine GMs will aim for about the same rate we have now, but with all the changes to how combat will work there will be to many ways to train for GMs to garuntee that your method will be exactly the same.
Tachid smugly exclaims, "Die midget!"
One of the things being changed is how much experience you gain from actions, so we currently have no way to know for certain what the outcome will be. I imagine GMs will aim for about the same rate we have now, but with all the changes to how combat will work there will be to many ways to train for GMs to garuntee that your method will be exactly the same.
Tachid smugly exclaims, "Die midget!"
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Combat Help
02/12/2012 01:56 PM CST
retreat
retreat
load
retreat
retreat
fire
Not exactly complicated, even from a scripting standpoint. The fact your loosing instant retreat is entirely compensated by the new defense mechanics which will make ranged weapons at melee less cumbersome and the fact you'll be able to maintain a specific engagement.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
MARGASH
Re: Combat Help
02/12/2012 11:59 PM CST
>I think invoke bond throw is about as easy to train as something gets! Or invoke bond throw loot skin.
yes, i'd say thrown are as simply to train as melee. that's why they're on melee calcs.
to be fair, it's harder to parry with a thrown consitently while attacking with it. but with a parry stick, also not an issue.
totally agree with you here, sir.
yes, i'd say thrown are as simply to train as melee. that's why they're on melee calcs.
to be fair, it's harder to parry with a thrown consitently while attacking with it. but with a parry stick, also not an issue.
totally agree with you here, sir.
MARGASH
Re: Combat Help
02/13/2012 12:02 AM CST
>retreat
>retreat
>load
>retreat
>retreat
>fire
anyone who relies on "retreat" to train a stick bow is a newb
ignoring creatures that attack from missle (like intercessors) even with charging creatures, eventually this will get you killed as one will charge as soon as it hits pole.
i agree that nothing in dr is super duper hard. however, training a stick bow is without a doubt more complex than training a melee weapon.
and there's the whole parry thing, too.
>retreat
>load
>retreat
>retreat
>fire
anyone who relies on "retreat" to train a stick bow is a newb
ignoring creatures that attack from missle (like intercessors) even with charging creatures, eventually this will get you killed as one will charge as soon as it hits pole.
i agree that nothing in dr is super duper hard. however, training a stick bow is without a doubt more complex than training a melee weapon.
and there's the whole parry thing, too.
