I have a question as well. Having been gone a while and I don't see it on the list.

What's the plan for pole-ranged weapons and the abilities/skills to keep adversaries/yourself at pole-range for gaining tactical advantage?

~Beliel

The shield change is not exactly news- since it has been mentioned in the past.

But my concern is strictly about HX- since that my primary weapon- and one which I regret more and more.

What it appears to me from these changes is that learning HX will be easier- BUT- I will have to choose between getting full effectiveness from my HX or using my shield.

Right now, using a shield is really the only benefit to using a crossbow over a bow. Crossbows don't appear to hit as hard as bows, and of course are much, much slower to load.

With this change...I don't see how there will be any argument that HX can compete with bows. Don't hit as hard, slower to load, and can only use shields with a penalty. More so, I really can't see how HX can compete with LX.

I really, really want to be wrong in my analysis here. Right now, I prefer to train any of my weapons more than HX, but I really can't catch my secondary weapon up to HX. Have I been struggling along with HX for the last years for nothing?

>>Crossbows are not two-handed weapons. You need a hand open to load, sure, but you can fire with something else in your hand, IIRC.

On top of this - correct me if I'm wrong but aren't HX and LX being combined into one skill? I don't see any way that "Crossbows" (as a combined skill) could ALL be considered 2 handed weapons, even if heavy crossbows specifically are. So at the very worst I would think you could just start using light crossbows to avoid the defensive penalty, or more likely, crossbows would not be included in the penalty

Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Apu

>>On top of this - correct me if I'm wrong but aren't HX and LX being combined into one skill? I don't see any way that "Crossbows" (as a combined skill) could ALL be considered 2 handed weapons, even if heavy crossbows specifically are. So at the very worst I would think you could just start using light crossbows to avoid the defensive penalty, or more likely, crossbows would not be included in the penalty

Correct for the most part. HX is a two-handed weapon while LX is one handed, those who are HX users will be able to swap over to using LX and avoid any penalties. With the advent of player made xbows and bolts, your probably looking at xbows being a reliable and powerful weapon again. Something that hasn't been seen in years.

_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga

> My question is will their be a benifit to using a two-handed weapon?

Let me begin with the disclaimer that in the end, weapon stats reign supreme, so in the following discussion it is always possible that certain weapons have stats that make them exceptions to the concepts being discussed where general weapon classes (small, large, two-handed, etc) are concerned. With that said...

The biggest benefit is the same benefit they already enjoy -- the highest base damage as a general rule. Not just in terms of individual output, but also in the damage-over-time sense, since the ability to reduce the roundtime of weapons just increases the damage-dealing edge of the hardest-hitting weapons, despite the fact the smallest can be (but not necessarily always are) slightly faster in the end. Two-handers are all about going on the offensive, not being defensive. Kill it and it won't hurt you. Best defense ever.

But that's not the only advantage to two-handers. Two-handers tend to be more strength friendly, which in turn is more damage friendly. Again, these things hurt more. On top of that, two-handers tend to have higher Force, which will be the primary determining factor (again, along with strength) in determining stuns and other secondary factors. Last but not least, while small weapons will have a higher chance to get a crit on to-hit rolls (they are intended to be the most accurate weapons), the two-handers will have a higher chance to crit on the damage rolls. Again, it's all about the damage.

If you want to hit more consistently and maximize your defense, go with small weapons; they are all about precise control. If you want to maximize your damage and chance to stun, go with the two-handers; they are all about going on the offensive. If you want the middle ground, the large one-handed weapons are the place to go; they are more defensible than two-handers, but better damage dealers than the small weapons. Again, this is just a general overarching statement -- the individual weapon stats may create exceptions.


- GM Dartenian

Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams

Dart, looks like you posted while I was responding to Leilond. Thanks for the clarification.




You also see a shiny scorecard and a shiny scorecard.
Obvious paths: none.
> read scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Liurilias - 747"
> read other scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Zerreck - 2456"

> The wording that Dart used sounds differnt than the wording you used.

Yes, I wasn't clear here, but that post was intended as a general overview, not a delve into the specifics.

In reality, small weapons will have a higher chance to get a to-hit crit, which does also increase the damage potential a bit, but two-handers will have a higher chance for a damage crit, which will have a more profound impact on damage (both because it is directly being applied to the damage, and because +10% to 100 damage trumps +10% to 10 damage).


- GM Dartenian

Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams

>or evening grappling an enemy to reduce their threat level.

Would you have to wine and dine the enemy first?

>>Empaths have plenty of options even against non-construct critters. GS, Manipulate, and Innocence if all else fails.

><<GS,Manipulate>>, yes. those kill critters. but you don't learn weapon ranks by using them. with the current system, you have to stance parry with critters to learn weapon ranks. And you only learn them by having them pile on.

>I'm thinking specifically of the ranks in-between when one can hunt boggles and gargoyles, which are both constructs. Which includes roughly eel level to croc-level.

>And ever watch two eels trying to kill each other with manipulate? its like watching paint dry.

Not to mention that undead are pretty strictly forbidden to Empaths. Still Shock-causing, yet no Empathic spells/abilities work on them, and guardian spirits don't like dealing with them...

I was mostly past the boggle-gargoyle jump when Constructs were released (my relevant weapons were ~80 ranks at the time), but from what others posted over time, it sounds POSSIBLE to make a jump that high, just rather difficult. Personally, I look forward to Empaths keeping our bag of disabler tricks, and adding a Str/Agi buff in as well in 3.0. But yes, there's still definite holes in the Construct critter ladder. And it's even worse if you consider skinnable Constructs (which number 3, and all are gargoyles of various types).

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

> <<GS,Manipulate>>, yes. those kill critters. but you don't learn weapon ranks by using them.

No, you don't, and yes, learning traditional weapon skills as an empath is going to be difficult until we can fill out more of the construct chain. That's sort of part and parcel of being part of a guild that isn't generally supposed to be picking up weapons and beating in the heads of enemies with them. So yes, it is very likely that training traditional weapon skills is going to be little more difficult, at least learning them in the field via parry. At the very least, they'll need to be more active in their training, not just standing and dancing.

On the flip side, Empaths will be getting a combat-related skill that is primary for them -- Tactics. This will include some offensive (albeit non-damaging) moves, as well as other perks and benefits in combat. In addition, the impact of weapon skill on the ability to parry is going way down (but not completely away), so most empaths will actually be able to parry better than they can at present, which is doubly useful since parry is the most friendly defense in multi situations. We will get more of the construct ladder filled for those of you who really want to be sword-swinging empaths, and I promise to make that one of my primary focuses once the base rewrite is finished, but we really do need to get away from allowing, let alone encouraging, prolonged dancing in combat. It causes all sorts of problems, from issues with having enough spawn for everyone to just plain adding to lag and a dozen things in between.

- GM Dartenian

Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams

Dart, your presence on the boards has been sorely missed! :P

Thanks for the open communication. I at the very least greatly appreciate it :)

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

Was wondering about combat while advancing/retreating. And pole combat.

Will I still be able to advance/retreat and aim a bow, fire a ranged weapon, or throw something; without breaking/stopping my advancing or retreating?

It there any advantage/disadvantage to attacking something from pole with a large weapon, aside from the relative safety of distance?

Is Charge still going to be around? Sometimes I wish I could just toggle it off in case I messed up an didn't stop advancing first...
Alternatively, any kind of retreat charge attack/tactics? Like how you step back with Draw, maybe shave 2 seconds off retreat time with a weak attack thrown in, or something that debalances but quickly scrambles you back a range in 2-3 sec?

_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

Will there still be some sort of neutral basic attack command akin to the current ATTACK? Something that just keeps you on even ground without being too aggressive or conservative for those lazy times/people out there?

---

~Talo, Prydaen Barbarian~

Can you speak a bit about using a weapon in EACH hand vs shield penalty and how 2 weapon attacks will work. And will what about HT and LT will we be able to throw both at once?

______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Bit Player of M'Riss

Heyo!

It's way way way past my bedtime, but I can't seem to sleep, so I'll tackle the dual wield question real quick...

First and foremost, I am not going to make anything vaguely resembling a promise on dual wield, but as I've gone through combat I've been adding hooks to make enabling a new version of dual wield possible. The reality is that DR isn't really set up very well for dual wielding, and anything we do is going to be a little on the hackish side. Some of you may remember that in the past the idea of having separate roundtimes for left and right hands, but the logistics of that is just nightmarish at best. Not so much from coding the attacks, but just the idea of trying to juggle that as a player without complex scripts, not to mention the necessary messaging and front-end tools necessary to make it even remotely user friendly. I don't want to say it can't be done, but I just don't think it is justified by the effort and complexity involved on all sides.

I do have a dual wield system mostly cobbled together, but it is a much more straightforward and simple version...although perhaps not as straightforward and simple as our current live pseudo-dual-wield. At this stage I really don't want to go into any details, since I suspect that even if it works, it will need a lot of tweaking. For me, the biggest issue with dual wield isn't making it happen, it's making it happen in a way that doesn't encroach too heavily into the niches of the other fighting styles (sword & board, two-handed weapons, etc), especially if dual parry is part of the picture. It would be far to easy for dual wield to have all the best features of single-weapon or sword & board style combat combined with damage potential rivaling or even exceeding two-handers.

Suffice it to say I do have something we can try out in the test instance soon, but it will almost certainly need a lot of fine tuning to give it its own niche and allow other fighting styles to maintain theirs.


- GM Dartenian

Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams

Would dual wield be a nice way to sorta-circumvent the "attack cooldown" timer that is separate from the actual RT timer?

In other words, if jabbing weapon Z makes a 2 second RT, but there's a 5 second "cooldown", that cooldown only counts for the hand where it took place. So you could JAB LEFT, and after the RT expires JAB RIGHT without suffering the penalties that you would have experienced if you jabbed with the same weapon in the same hand again.

>>I'd rather be able to attack with both hands simultaneously to be honest, similar to the Barbarian maneuver WHIRL. Only I imagined a whole suite of dualwield-specific maneuvers.

You can have my Barbarian dual whirl, when you pry it from my cold dead hands (both of them)!

Agreed. Separate maneuvers that use both weapons like whirlwind does, but each it's own positive and negative.
Examples

A double thrust
Positive: getting through someones parry
Negative: severe last maneuver defense penalty

Calf slash
Positive: uses right hand to keep their defense busy while the left hand slices their calf making them slower or gives RT.
Negative: leaves you unbalanced from reaching down

Current Whirlwind
Positive: Melee AOE
Negative: defense penalty, unbalance next move and large RT

I could come up with a dozen more of these, but the basic gist is to have a set of maneuvers that uses both hands, each guild could have one or two specific moves.

D

>>But to answer your question, the weight reduction is pretty much linear. Raise your strength, your weapon speed should also increase.

Thanks.

What about granularity? Would I see a RT difference between a 5 stone weapon and a 15 stone weapon of the same stats, assuming I'm skilled enough to bring them both down to min RT? What about a 70 stone weapon vs. a 100 stone one?


-- Player of Eyuve

My ideal is that dual wielding would act similar to throwing blades, but with reduced roundtime. The trade off is that it doubles everything--both good and bad(except for roundtime because the attacks are happening simultaneously).

Example

---

> glance
You glance down to see a tyrium dao that has flecks of blood on it in your right hand and a damascened misericorde in your left hand.

> dual slice
< Driving in like the irresistable force of a cyclone, you slice a tyrium dao at a musk hog. A musk hog attempts to dodge, mis-stepping and blundering into the blow.
The dao lands a massive (12/23) strike that cleaves the right arm from the shoulder, knocking it completely senseless.
[You're slightly off balance and in superior position.]
< Moving with incredible power and control, you slice a damascened misericorde at a musk hog. A musk hog attempts to dodge, failing miserably.
The misericorde lands a massive (12/23) strike that amputates the left arm and a good deal of the shoulder in a crippling blow.
[You're somewhat off balance and in strong position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]

---

Using two daggers? You do twice as much damage in the same amount of time, with the caveat that you would have had to train offhand weapon skill up along with your small edge skill, thus requiring two weapon skills.

Using an attack with a balance hit? You would take double the balance hit for using that maneuver with each of your weapons. (as per the example above)

Using a fatiguing attack? You would take double the fatigue hit when using that maneuver with each of your weapons.

Using a balance positive attack? You would get double the balance bonus when using that maneuver with each of your weapons.

It really is a double edged sword because you tire out more quickly, but you also do more damage in the same amount of time. It would be more difficult to manage and thus would be a more complex method of combat, but the benefits are there too.

Big key is that it requires two weapon skills instead of one, so it should have some advantage(mostly the flexibility noted above) over the one-skill weapon styles IMO. It should probably come with a shield penalty only when you are attacking(the penalty should be less than 2 handed edged IMO because your left arm has more mobility when it isn't caught up trying to grip a focal object with your right hand) but also with a heightened ability to parry, as you'll be able to parry with either weapon.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!