Back in the test instance pre-3.0 release, Firekast mentioned that he found plate to be superior to other armor types in terms of survivability, despite being armor tertiary and receiving more small hits than he did in other armor types. I’ve talked to a few armor tertiary PCs recently, however, who report lower survivability in plate armor than in chain armor despite a significant rank disparity in favor of plate armor. I’m wondering:
1. Do others also find that plate (and brigandine) armor is not really viable for armor tertiary guilds because it offers less survivability than weaker armor types in addition to its other drawbacks?
2. If the answer to 1 is yes, would it be okay if the min maneuvering hindrance for plate/brig was brought down a bit for armor tertiary guilds? Or… Maybe this can be accomplished with new forging templates?
I really only play a paladin these days so I have nothing to lose or gain from posting this. I’d just like to see the heavy armors become an option for other non-stealthy types.
2DUMBARSE
RAISHI
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
05/31/2013 12:33 AM CDT
As a warmage - Heavy Plate armor is not just worth it for my character, I used to train both chain and HP than 3.0 than plate is not just worth it for my character at around 700 rank, I now drop plate and wear chain exclusively. As go hunting with plate armor I'll have to run to empath about every 1 hours vs the 4 hours in chain. Below is the HP set and chain set I wear.
You feel certain that an engraved iron mail hauberk appears to impose high (9/15) maneuvering hindrance and moderate (7/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
very good (6/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
good (5/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
good (5/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing an engraved iron mail hauberk your maneuvering would be lightly (4/14) hindered and your stealth would be fairly (5/14) hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly (5/14) hindered and your stealth is somewhat (6/14) hindered.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that a polished lumium full plate appears to impose great (11/15) maneuvering hindrance and insane (15/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
very high (8/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
great (9/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
high (7/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing a polished lumium full plate your maneuvering would be moderately (7/14) hindered and your stealth would be very (9/14) hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently very (9/14) hindered and your stealth is highly (10/14) hindered.
You feel certain that an engraved iron mail hauberk appears to impose high (9/15) maneuvering hindrance and moderate (7/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
very good (6/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
good (5/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
good (5/15) protection and very great (12/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing an engraved iron mail hauberk your maneuvering would be lightly (4/14) hindered and your stealth would be fairly (5/14) hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly (5/14) hindered and your stealth is somewhat (6/14) hindered.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that a polished lumium full plate appears to impose great (11/15) maneuvering hindrance and insane (15/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
very high (8/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
great (9/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
very high (8/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
high (7/15) protection and exceptional (14/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing a polished lumium full plate your maneuvering would be moderately (7/14) hindered and your stealth would be very (9/14) hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently very (9/14) hindered and your stealth is highly (10/14) hindered.
AVILAM12
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
05/31/2013 06:41 AM CDT
Well as another war mage I still use plate as my main armor and I think it is still viable. I believe our buffs help offset the huge hinderence we get from plate armor to a certain point. I use SUF, SW and YS (although I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes in 3.0 but I still use it anyways) I'm currently hunting adult armadillos and it takes many hours of hunting before I get a bleeder and I need to get to an empath so I'm sticking with my plate/brig setup I got. Just as a reference here is the armor I use.
The full plate is plate armor.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some lumium full plate appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for slice attacks.
high protection and extreme damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for fire attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for cold attacks.
good protection and high damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some lumium full plate your maneuvering would be moderately hindered and your stealth would be very hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered and your stealth is highly hindered.
The full plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the full plate weighs exactly 492 stones.
You are certain that the full plate is worth exactly 1806324 Lirums.
The great helm is plate armor.
The helm looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
head
neck
right eye
left eye
You feel certain that a lumium great helm appears to impose fair maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for slice attacks.
high protection and extreme damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for fire attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for cold attacks.
good protection and high damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing a lumium great helm your maneuvering would be lightly hindered and your stealth would be lightly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered and your stealth is highly hindered.
The great helm is made with metal.
You are certain that the great helm weighs exactly 201 stones.
You are certain that the great helm is worth exactly 643300 Lirums.
The brigandine gloves are brigandine armor.
The gloves look like they offer protection for the following areas:
right hand
left hand
You feel certain that some lumium brigandine gloves appear to impose light maneuvering hindrance and insignificant stealth hindrance, offering:
very good protection and very great damage absorption for puncture attacks.
high protection and very great damage absorption for slice attacks.
high protection and very great damage absorption for impact attacks.
very good protection and very high damage absorption for fire attacks.
very good protection and very high damage absorption for cold attacks.
moderate protection and very good damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some lumium brigandine gloves your maneuvering would be barely hindered and your stealth would be barely hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered and your stealth is highly hindered.
The brigandine gloves are made with metal.
The brigandine gloves are somewhat pliable.
You are certain that the brigandine gloves weighs exactly 49 stones.
You are certain that the brigandine gloves are worth exactly 159812 Lirums.
The full plate is plate armor.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some lumium full plate appears to impose great maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for slice attacks.
high protection and extreme damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for fire attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for cold attacks.
good protection and high damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some lumium full plate your maneuvering would be moderately hindered and your stealth would be very hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered and your stealth is highly hindered.
The full plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the full plate weighs exactly 492 stones.
You are certain that the full plate is worth exactly 1806324 Lirums.
The great helm is plate armor.
The helm looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
head
neck
right eye
left eye
You feel certain that a lumium great helm appears to impose fair maneuvering hindrance and fair stealth hindrance, offering:
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very high protection and extreme damage absorption for slice attacks.
high protection and extreme damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for fire attacks.
high protection and great damage absorption for cold attacks.
good protection and high damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing a lumium great helm your maneuvering would be lightly hindered and your stealth would be lightly hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered and your stealth is highly hindered.
The great helm is made with metal.
You are certain that the great helm weighs exactly 201 stones.
You are certain that the great helm is worth exactly 643300 Lirums.
The brigandine gloves are brigandine armor.
The gloves look like they offer protection for the following areas:
right hand
left hand
You feel certain that some lumium brigandine gloves appear to impose light maneuvering hindrance and insignificant stealth hindrance, offering:
very good protection and very great damage absorption for puncture attacks.
high protection and very great damage absorption for slice attacks.
high protection and very great damage absorption for impact attacks.
very good protection and very high damage absorption for fire attacks.
very good protection and very high damage absorption for cold attacks.
moderate protection and very good damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some lumium brigandine gloves your maneuvering would be barely hindered and your stealth would be barely hindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered and your stealth is highly hindered.
The brigandine gloves are made with metal.
The brigandine gloves are somewhat pliable.
You are certain that the brigandine gloves weighs exactly 49 stones.
You are certain that the brigandine gloves are worth exactly 159812 Lirums.
ALDEN
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 01:33 PM CDT
Flavius- a cleric- trains primarily Chain and HP but also some Light Armor. Purely subjective but when I switch from chain to HP setup, it seems like Flavius just gets beaten up much more- but then again Flavius has about 100 ranks more of Chain.
What doesn't seem intuitive is that he seems to get beaten up more in HP than in Light Armor- and Flavius has 200 more HP than light armor.
I pretty much swap out full sets now, so Flavius doesn't have mixed armor penalties- HP seems like more of penalty so far than a benefit.
What doesn't seem intuitive is that he seems to get beaten up more in HP than in Light Armor- and Flavius has 200 more HP than light armor.
I pretty much swap out full sets now, so Flavius doesn't have mixed armor penalties- HP seems like more of penalty so far than a benefit.
NINEVAH1
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 02:50 PM CDT
Looks like the hinderance penalty to your defenses in HP is worse than the extra protection that it gives for you, while the light armor is allowing you to avoid more blows instead of trying to soak them up. I've seen out in zombies in BC so I'm assuming you have enough skill to be at minimum hinderance in your armors so this isn't a matter of skill. It seems the only way to fix it from my perspective is to get some lighter/less hindering plate to make it worth using.
FWIW, I've noticed the same thing. While armor is more worthwhile than it was in 2.0, it still seems better to not be hit than to try to absorb damage. IMO brigadine might be a better heavy armor option for non-paladins, and cloth a better option for stealth users now.
FWIW, I've noticed the same thing. While armor is more worthwhile than it was in 2.0, it still seems better to not be hit than to try to absorb damage. IMO brigadine might be a better heavy armor option for non-paladins, and cloth a better option for stealth users now.
ELRIIC
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 03:03 PM CDT
I couldn't disagree more. I'm incredibly happy to be back in heavy plate. Haven't used it since the old GSWP and massive plate armor days and sorely missed it. I'm able to much more aggressively move up in hunting since I switched back. Totally worth it.
YMMV I suppose, but I'm staying in plate this time around come hell or high water.
By my Hand -
Elriic DeMooran-Melniibone, Co-Commander of the Vela'tohr Civilian Militia
~For Zoluren there is NO price to high, NO sacrifice too small!
YMMV I suppose, but I'm staying in plate this time around come hell or high water.
By my Hand -
Elriic DeMooran-Melniibone, Co-Commander of the Vela'tohr Civilian Militia
~For Zoluren there is NO price to high, NO sacrifice too small!
NINEVAH1
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 04:42 PM CDT
>>I'm able to much more aggressively move up in hunting since I switched back. Totally worth it.
I agree with this. I'm not trying to say plate isn't useful because it is much more useful than it used to be, and the WM buff suite lends itself to making heavier armors better for them. In this situation though you are garunteed to take some heavy hits which the plate soaks up wonderfully.
I was talking more about the ultra-safe hunting that the majority of DR does. Where the only hits you have to worry about are the random ones that you can not avoid but do minimal damage. You will get hit/hurt more often in plate compared to light armor all day. It just comes down to defenses being penalized more when you are at minimum hinderance for both armors.
I think every armor has it's niche now (except maybe Bone?) and I think that's great. Just pointing out that plate is not the best/most optimal armor to wear in every situation.
I agree with this. I'm not trying to say plate isn't useful because it is much more useful than it used to be, and the WM buff suite lends itself to making heavier armors better for them. In this situation though you are garunteed to take some heavy hits which the plate soaks up wonderfully.
I was talking more about the ultra-safe hunting that the majority of DR does. Where the only hits you have to worry about are the random ones that you can not avoid but do minimal damage. You will get hit/hurt more often in plate compared to light armor all day. It just comes down to defenses being penalized more when you are at minimum hinderance for both armors.
I think every armor has it's niche now (except maybe Bone?) and I think that's great. Just pointing out that plate is not the best/most optimal armor to wear in every situation.
DRTYPRIOR
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 06:18 PM CDT
>I think every armor has it's niche now (except maybe Bone?)
What would you say are all the niches, in your opinion?
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
What would you say are all the niches, in your opinion?
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
NINEVAH1
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 09:53 PM CDT
Might not be the best use of niche, but I believe cloth/brig are both good as a torso armor when mixing with other armors for lower overall hinderance while still getting decent protection (the heavier cloth armors are comparable to leather in protection with less hinderance). If you want to wear one armor type with good protection then leather/bone and plate are good for those. Shalswars leathers protect very well, and while hindering they aren't too bad if there is not a mixed armor penalty, same with plate.
To answer why I question where bone fits is mainly due to lack of good materials to do much with that armor right now. IIRC the bone materials don't have stats or densities that reach what leather does, even though bone is supposed to be like leather but with more protection and less absorption. So right now leather is superior to bone, but I hope in the future that there will be a viable choice between the two based on where you want your protection at.
Now this is just my view point on armors, and how I've made them work with my characters. As I stated earlier I feel that it is still better for a long hunting session to not be hit at all instead of trying to soak up damage regardless of how it effects your defenses. Only getting hit by the random hit that no one can avoid is better than taking hits because your defenses are too penalized + the random unavoidable hits. Now before people start shouting how I'm wrong, this is just what works for me. Other people play differently and have different experiences, so take this FWIW.
To answer why I question where bone fits is mainly due to lack of good materials to do much with that armor right now. IIRC the bone materials don't have stats or densities that reach what leather does, even though bone is supposed to be like leather but with more protection and less absorption. So right now leather is superior to bone, but I hope in the future that there will be a viable choice between the two based on where you want your protection at.
Now this is just my view point on armors, and how I've made them work with my characters. As I stated earlier I feel that it is still better for a long hunting session to not be hit at all instead of trying to soak up damage regardless of how it effects your defenses. Only getting hit by the random hit that no one can avoid is better than taking hits because your defenses are too penalized + the random unavoidable hits. Now before people start shouting how I'm wrong, this is just what works for me. Other people play differently and have different experiences, so take this FWIW.
DRTYPRIOR
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 10:10 PM CDT
Interesting. One of the reasons I asked that is because I've been hearing a lot of grumbling about a lack of a niche for chain. I noticed you didn't mention it all, somewhat proving that this might, in fact, be an issue. Where do you see chain in the grand scheme of things?
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 10:25 PM CDT
You can make chain that is more protective than the lowest weight Brig, I need to compare the two yet but from appraisal it is heavier, more protective, same hinderance, 2 ranges less stealth hinderance. So chain allows higher protection than the light armors and stealth training is still doable.
Brig is a harder niche IMO, because you can't hide in Brig unless your opponent is very far under you. So the only thing that Brig has over plate is that it has less hinderance for less protection/absorption. Comparing the two lightest sets, Brig was two ranges less stealth and maneuver hinderance, but again, 2 less stealth ranges doesnt really matter at level because you still can't hide.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Brig is a harder niche IMO, because you can't hide in Brig unless your opponent is very far under you. So the only thing that Brig has over plate is that it has less hinderance for less protection/absorption. Comparing the two lightest sets, Brig was two ranges less stealth and maneuver hinderance, but again, 2 less stealth ranges doesnt really matter at level because you still can't hide.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
REASONMJ
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/13/2013 10:41 PM CDT
>>You can make chain that is more protective than the lowest weight Brig,
In my shop I sell chain armor that ranges from Very High (10) up to Extreme (13) absorption, and plate armor that ranges from Very Great (12) up to Incredible (15) absorption.
All the metal armors have so much overlap that I'm not sure anything really has a niche other than Leather as the least protective armor but by far best for stealth.
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
In my shop I sell chain armor that ranges from Very High (10) up to Extreme (13) absorption, and plate armor that ranges from Very Great (12) up to Incredible (15) absorption.
All the metal armors have so much overlap that I'm not sure anything really has a niche other than Leather as the least protective armor but by far best for stealth.
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
DRTYPRIOR
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/14/2013 12:05 AM CDT
So Apu, it sounds like you can find a comfortable middle ground, somewhere within the forged armors, between all the different options and based on your preference?
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
Captain Jack: "Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks 'Oooh, this could be a little more sonic'?"
The Doctor: "What? You never been bored? Never had a long night? Never had a lot of cabinets to put up?"
REASONMJ
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/14/2013 12:28 AM CDT
>>So Apu, it sounds like you can find a comfortable middle ground, somewhere within the forged armors, between all the different options and based on your preference?
That's sort of what it seems like to me, I'm not completely sure though, I actually just use all armors for TDP reasons. If I had to choose one, I'd go with Chain for sure
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
That's sort of what it seems like to me, I'm not completely sure though, I actually just use all armors for TDP reasons. If I had to choose one, I'd go with Chain for sure
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
GORTEOUS
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/14/2013 01:00 AM CDT
I'd go for a mixed leather/chain setup - chain to cover essential body parts and leather for extremities and head.
Why head? It doesn't get hit very much, and when it does the damage is generally less.
I do a three-piece set for training though - swapping hp/lp head piece, with chain gloves and leather body.
I'd say chain still gives the best cost-to-performance though for non-Pallies.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Why head? It doesn't get hit very much, and when it does the damage is generally less.
I do a three-piece set for training though - swapping hp/lp head piece, with chain gloves and leather body.
I'd say chain still gives the best cost-to-performance though for non-Pallies.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
NINEVAH1
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/14/2013 05:28 AM CDT
>> Where do you see chain in the grand scheme of things?
Sorry about that. I meant to say something about chain but forgot. Personally I see chain as one of the best armors. As noted by some others you can make chain super heavy and protective if you don't care about weight or hinderance, or you can make it super light and as hindering as some light armors with better protection and leaving stealth usable. I think chain is perfect for the person who doesn't want to train multiple armors but wants the most flexibility. It is also great for people who mix a lot of armors as it can be less hindering than other metal armors and still give great protection.
Sorry about that. I meant to say something about chain but forgot. Personally I see chain as one of the best armors. As noted by some others you can make chain super heavy and protective if you don't care about weight or hinderance, or you can make it super light and as hindering as some light armors with better protection and leaving stealth usable. I think chain is perfect for the person who doesn't want to train multiple armors but wants the most flexibility. It is also great for people who mix a lot of armors as it can be less hindering than other metal armors and still give great protection.
NINEVAH1
Re: Plate Armor and Armor Tertiary Guilds
06/14/2013 05:39 AM CDT
Sorry, double post
>>Brig is a harder niche IMO
I agree, but it seems it's an emerging niche that more people might be interested in. I think brig would be a great alternative to plate for the OP, but at this point is just another skill he'd have to backtrain (maybe?). I believe brig is a better option than plate for the non-paladin/WM crowd who do not use stealth. It gives a better balance between hinderance and protection allowing people to rely a bit more on their defenses instead of their armor.
Of course, with brig being harder to find than plate/chain people may not bother to even consider it.
>>Brig is a harder niche IMO
I agree, but it seems it's an emerging niche that more people might be interested in. I think brig would be a great alternative to plate for the OP, but at this point is just another skill he'd have to backtrain (maybe?). I believe brig is a better option than plate for the non-paladin/WM crowd who do not use stealth. It gives a better balance between hinderance and protection allowing people to rely a bit more on their defenses instead of their armor.
Of course, with brig being harder to find than plate/chain people may not bother to even consider it.
