So now that the skill combine information has been posted, I'm curious as to what niche LP armor (Brigandine Armor) will fill when Combat 3.0 rolls out. As of right now it's my primary armor but I've backtrained just about every other armor type and I'd like to know if I should train more of the other armor types or if I should continue with my LP.
Thanks much for all the great stuff you folks have been doing, and I'm looking forward to the new combat when it arrives.
-Rambliin
Your spirit is weakened beyond its ability to sustain your body!
A panicked scream pierces the air. "Murderer!" You notice the nearby citizenry looking your way for the moment, before most quickly run off in fear.
RAMBLIIN
JMF90
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/15/2010 10:54 AM CST
Having trained every armor type extensively, I've been wondering the same thing myself. No one even uses LP currently, and for good reasons.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
NEELD
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 09:42 AM CST
<<Having trained every armor type extensively, I've been wondering the same thing myself. No one even uses LP currently, and for good reasons.
I agree. I can not even think of a niche for LP presently. However, I see significant use of both LC and HC and each serves a different purpose in my mind.
I would have:
1. Combined the plates (heavy and light).
2. Kept LC and HC separate.
3. Combined the "light armors" (leather, bone and cloth).
FWIW.
Madigan
I agree. I can not even think of a niche for LP presently. However, I see significant use of both LC and HC and each serves a different purpose in my mind.
I would have:
1. Combined the plates (heavy and light).
2. Kept LC and HC separate.
3. Combined the "light armors" (leather, bone and cloth).
FWIW.
Madigan
ISHARON
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 10:18 AM CST
>>I would have:
I'm happy with the proposed armor classes, although this is how I would have done it:
heavy plate + light plate = plate armor
heavy chain + light chain = mail (or chain armor)
leather + cloth = cloth
bone = catch-all for non-metal, non-cloth armor
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
I'm happy with the proposed armor classes, although this is how I would have done it:
heavy plate + light plate = plate armor
heavy chain + light chain = mail (or chain armor)
leather + cloth = cloth
bone = catch-all for non-metal, non-cloth armor
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
NJP
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 10:22 AM CST
>>1. Combined the plates (heavy and light).
>>2. Kept LC and HC separate.
>>3. Combined the "light armors" (leather, bone and cloth).
That would have made a lot more sense to me, too. It would seem much easier to maintain two armor types that have their own established niches already, rather than to try and carve out a new niche for one that's long been nothing but a TDP factory for anybody who trains it.
That said, I'm not going to complain. My extra chain ranks will go a lot further toward filling out my potential Defending skill than my other excess armor ranks would without it.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
>>2. Kept LC and HC separate.
>>3. Combined the "light armors" (leather, bone and cloth).
That would have made a lot more sense to me, too. It would seem much easier to maintain two armor types that have their own established niches already, rather than to try and carve out a new niche for one that's long been nothing but a TDP factory for anybody who trains it.
That said, I'm not going to complain. My extra chain ranks will go a lot further toward filling out my potential Defending skill than my other excess armor ranks would without it.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 10:27 AM CST
From the sound of it (although I could be wrong), it seems like heavy plate may be getting "heavier" and brigandine is going to include a lot of what people typically see within the HP category right now.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
DEVAN
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 10:47 AM CST
FWIW, my dwarf moon mage uses light plate. =P
Mostly because I picked up some greaves from a goblin and decided to go with it and I've been screwing efficiency and effectiveness in favor of being quirky.
Mostly because I picked up some greaves from a goblin and decided to go with it and I've been screwing efficiency and effectiveness in favor of being quirky.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 12:56 PM CST
I probably would of combined plates, chains, leather\cloth and kept bone separate as well.
Bone armor seems like it is significantly different than any of the above armors and a lot of potential for a different type of crafting system as well. Necromancers could probably craft bone armor in the field as well. Don't understand why that one was combined.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax
Bone armor seems like it is significantly different than any of the above armors and a lot of potential for a different type of crafting system as well. Necromancers could probably craft bone armor in the field as well. Don't understand why that one was combined.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax
NEELD
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 01:07 PM CST
<<From the sound of it (although I could be wrong), it seems like heavy plate may be getting "heavier" and brigandine is going to include a lot of what people typically see within the HP category right now.
That could work actually. You just have to increase the scale between LP and HP presently and then you have your niche.
Madigan
That could work actually. You just have to increase the scale between LP and HP presently and then you have your niche.
Madigan
MOERAS
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 01:58 PM CST
<<<<From the sound of it (although I could be wrong), it seems like heavy plate may be getting "heavier" and brigandine is going to include a lot of what people typically see within the HP category right now.
<<That could work actually. You just have to increase the scale between LP and HP presently and then you have your niche.
geared toward deflect versus geared toward absorb with equal amounts of heavy armor awesome might be the other way to go. of course I may be on crazy pills thinking I remembered armor moving toward actually being useful as shield/parry are now as well as providing absorb functions.
<<That could work actually. You just have to increase the scale between LP and HP presently and then you have your niche.
geared toward deflect versus geared toward absorb with equal amounts of heavy armor awesome might be the other way to go. of course I may be on crazy pills thinking I remembered armor moving toward actually being useful as shield/parry are now as well as providing absorb functions.
ISHARON
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 02:14 PM CST
>>Moeras: of course I may be on crazy pills thinking I remembered armor moving toward actually being useful as shield/parry are now as well as providing absorb functions.
If you are on "crazy pills," they're not affecting your memory. :-)
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=11&topic=1&message=174
>>DR-Dartenian: Armor skill modified by the appropriate armor protection stats will replace parry and shield as the second line of defense. Armor skill will work in a manner similar to how parry/shield do now -- as a second line of defense if the first line fails, but before a hit or miss is determined and damage computed.
>>DR-Dartenian: As mentioned in the previous section, armor protection is moving to the Active Defense side of combat. Armor absorption will remain essentially unchanged.
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=11&topic=1&message=172
>>DR-Dartenian: Right now it is possible to permanently minimize hindrance by achieving X ranks in the appropriate armor skill. In the very near future, this will be changing. The next phase will eliminate the ability to do this, and require that armor skill be roughly in line with your other main combat capabilities (evasion, in particular) to maintain minimal hindrance. It has never made sense that you need 500 ranks of defense and offense to fight Critter X, but only 50-150 ranks of armor. That will no longer be true. The maximum hindrance is a means by which folks who do not want to invest the time in keeping their armor skill close to their overall combat level a few options that will let them still be effective -- it just means they'll need to stick to the lighter armors and rely more on their other defenses. For armor to be a viable defense, you'll need to keep it relatively close to your combat level, just like you would your other combat skills.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
If you are on "crazy pills," they're not affecting your memory. :-)
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=11&topic=1&message=174
>>DR-Dartenian: Armor skill modified by the appropriate armor protection stats will replace parry and shield as the second line of defense. Armor skill will work in a manner similar to how parry/shield do now -- as a second line of defense if the first line fails, but before a hit or miss is determined and damage computed.
>>DR-Dartenian: As mentioned in the previous section, armor protection is moving to the Active Defense side of combat. Armor absorption will remain essentially unchanged.
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=11&topic=1&message=172
>>DR-Dartenian: Right now it is possible to permanently minimize hindrance by achieving X ranks in the appropriate armor skill. In the very near future, this will be changing. The next phase will eliminate the ability to do this, and require that armor skill be roughly in line with your other main combat capabilities (evasion, in particular) to maintain minimal hindrance. It has never made sense that you need 500 ranks of defense and offense to fight Critter X, but only 50-150 ranks of armor. That will no longer be true. The maximum hindrance is a means by which folks who do not want to invest the time in keeping their armor skill close to their overall combat level a few options that will let them still be effective -- it just means they'll need to stick to the lighter armors and rely more on their other defenses. For armor to be a viable defense, you'll need to keep it relatively close to your combat level, just like you would your other combat skills.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
MOOK1
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/16/2010 07:51 PM CST
<<<<Having trained every armor type extensively, I've been wondering the same thing myself. No one even uses LP currently, and for good reasons.
I think part of the reasoning was to give the Armor primary guild (i.e. Paladins) a larger selection of heavier armor sets to train vs. the lighter ones. This avoids both cookie-cutterness as well as gives options to a guild designed to take full advantage of heavier types of armours.
For example, in the current breakdown there's Heavy Armor, Brigandine and to a lesser extent Chain Armor with only one lighter armour set of Light armor. If it was broken down as Madigan suggested (Plate, HC, LC, Light) you'd only have one big armor set with two middle ones and the one light one. Isharon's proposal (Plate, Chain, Light, Bone) would be even more light heavy (heh) with only one each of heavy and midweight armours but two light armor skills.
<<<<From the sound of it (although I could be wrong), it seems like heavy plate may be getting "heavier" and brigandine is going to include a lot of what people typically see within the HP category right now.
I can see this working too.
-Evran
"RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants!" -Evran
I think part of the reasoning was to give the Armor primary guild (i.e. Paladins) a larger selection of heavier armor sets to train vs. the lighter ones. This avoids both cookie-cutterness as well as gives options to a guild designed to take full advantage of heavier types of armours.
For example, in the current breakdown there's Heavy Armor, Brigandine and to a lesser extent Chain Armor with only one lighter armour set of Light armor. If it was broken down as Madigan suggested (Plate, HC, LC, Light) you'd only have one big armor set with two middle ones and the one light one. Isharon's proposal (Plate, Chain, Light, Bone) would be even more light heavy (heh) with only one each of heavy and midweight armours but two light armor skills.
<<<<From the sound of it (although I could be wrong), it seems like heavy plate may be getting "heavier" and brigandine is going to include a lot of what people typically see within the HP category right now.
I can see this working too.
-Evran
"RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants!" -Evran
JARADM
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/26/2010 01:00 PM CST
<<<<From the sound of it (although I could be wrong), it seems like heavy plate may be getting "heavier" and brigandine is going to include a lot of what people typically see within the HP category right now.>>
I asked about this and they said that the existing appraisals were not changing. So either everything is going to suck compared to some new armor template, or the skill itself will do something based on ranks vs. appraisal.
Quite honestly unless some new template for Brigandine comes out, this skill will remain usless for eons to come. That or solely the skill determines the effect of the armor. That last choice I don't like the direction thats going. I already dislike that all armor has a fixed stealth hinderance based on type. Just goes into that cookie cutter mode where everything is the same and boring.
I asked about this and they said that the existing appraisals were not changing. So either everything is going to suck compared to some new armor template, or the skill itself will do something based on ranks vs. appraisal.
Quite honestly unless some new template for Brigandine comes out, this skill will remain usless for eons to come. That or solely the skill determines the effect of the armor. That last choice I don't like the direction thats going. I already dislike that all armor has a fixed stealth hinderance based on type. Just goes into that cookie cutter mode where everything is the same and boring.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/26/2010 01:07 PM CST
We've already got statements from a few GMs that current items (that aren't grossly unbalanced) won't change, but the new items will be following new formulas/rules/whatever. It might be worth considering that not every one of those are going to be worse than what we currently have.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/26/2010 01:34 PM CST
There is going to be some discrepencies between the old and new system. While some of the older stuff may be a little better, like probably some of the chain, some of the new stuff will be better. Probably most of the LP.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
ASHBAUGHJ2
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/26/2010 01:40 PM CST
A lot of it will depend too on the role that armor ends up playing when combat is updated to 3.0. It could have different effects besides just hindering evasion and soaking damage, which might make certain types of armor lend themselves to certain fighting styles or gaps in buff type abilities.
Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0
Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0
FUTILITY
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
12/26/2010 02:33 PM CST
I expect Brigandine will be filling that "high protection, moderate stealth" niche, since that's about the only thing not covered by light/chain/plate.
Which means the current LP will probably be garbage comparatively.
Which means the current LP will probably be garbage comparatively.
OCONNELLJ7
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
01/12/2011 12:57 AM CST
"Brigandine" type armor could be used to describe very stealty armor such as the actual Brigandines, which would be stealthier than Chain. Or it can refer to Scale Armor...which would not be. Brigandine type armor could be made from metal, leather, bone, etc.
The problem with LP has always been that absorbtion for stone, protection for hinderence, Chain and Heavy Plate have always been better. A full set even weighs signifcantly more than Heavy Chain...
I could get behind LP-->Stealth provided they don't drop the protection, increase the wieght or change the hinderence... (though impact protection similar to Chain would be nice)
The problem with LP has always been that absorbtion for stone, protection for hinderence, Chain and Heavy Plate have always been better. A full set even weighs signifcantly more than Heavy Chain...
I could get behind LP-->Stealth provided they don't drop the protection, increase the wieght or change the hinderence... (though impact protection similar to Chain would be nice)
DRTYPRIOR
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
03/11/2011 01:26 PM CST
Is there any update on this? Is there a red-colored font out there who might be willing to go into some detail on the new vision for armor will be?
From both a practical and RP standpoint, it's a pretty important decision in a character's life. As of right now, that decision is hard to make.
Are we looking at:
HP is for Paladins
LP is for all other classes looking for a non-evasion based character
HC is for evasion/non-evasion type characters
LC is for evasion based characters wanting to be able to take some hits
Leather and lighters is for evasion players period?
Anyone willing to help fill in the gaps of my assumptions? I'm having a hard time finding a role for HC/LP in there.
From both a practical and RP standpoint, it's a pretty important decision in a character's life. As of right now, that decision is hard to make.
Are we looking at:
HP is for Paladins
LP is for all other classes looking for a non-evasion based character
HC is for evasion/non-evasion type characters
LC is for evasion based characters wanting to be able to take some hits
Leather and lighters is for evasion players period?
Anyone willing to help fill in the gaps of my assumptions? I'm having a hard time finding a role for HC/LP in there.
DARKNESS51
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
04/08/2011 11:19 AM CDT
>Is there any update on this? Is there a red-colored font out there who might be willing to go into some detail on the new vision for armor will be?
>From both a practical and RP standpoint, it's a pretty important decision in a character's life. As of right now, that decision is hard to make.
I'm curious if we could have an update on this for much of the same reason.
>Are we looking at:
>HP is for Paladins
>LP is for all other classes looking for a non-evasion based character
>HC is for evasion/non-evasion type characters
>LC is for evasion based characters wanting to be able to take some hits
>Leather and lighters is for evasion players period?
I really hope that won’t be the case. To me DR has always been nice due to the freedom of choice; I think having any armor being specifically for a class would be terrible. I like to think it’ll be more a play-style choice amplified by guild abilities and skillset.
Honestly it always bothers me that guilds work off armor hindrance differently other than just skillset placement. (Which if I’m wrong on that someone please correct me.) Even then I feel 500 ranks of Heavy Plate for one person should be equal to 500 ranks of Heavy Plate for another person, I mean if someone was tertiary they already had to work almost 3x as hard to get to that 500 as someone with Primary armor, why should they deserve less of a reward? Luckily going forward armor will be a more active defense so I really don’t think this should be much of an issue either way.
My hope is that Heavy Plate will be for those who don’t like to rely on evasion (which being evasion tertiary on my Warmie, it would make sense to wear with this thinking.) But right now that’s not really the case in most or even all situations. My hope is that wearing Heavy Plate relying on Parry and Shield will be as viable as wearing leather or chain and relying on parry and evasion (which currently would give a greater defense rank for rank currently, I’m fairly sure.) Then going down the different armor types would benefit different stance combinations. Obviously an evasion heavy stance would want to maximize on ranks of evasion and favor a lighter armor and a shield and armor heavy stance would favor heavier armor.
Speaking of which--has there been any mention of how stances will work in 3.0? Since armor is going to be contested more like Evasion is now, is it going to be affected by stance?
>From both a practical and RP standpoint, it's a pretty important decision in a character's life. As of right now, that decision is hard to make.
I'm curious if we could have an update on this for much of the same reason.
>Are we looking at:
>HP is for Paladins
>LP is for all other classes looking for a non-evasion based character
>HC is for evasion/non-evasion type characters
>LC is for evasion based characters wanting to be able to take some hits
>Leather and lighters is for evasion players period?
I really hope that won’t be the case. To me DR has always been nice due to the freedom of choice; I think having any armor being specifically for a class would be terrible. I like to think it’ll be more a play-style choice amplified by guild abilities and skillset.
Honestly it always bothers me that guilds work off armor hindrance differently other than just skillset placement. (Which if I’m wrong on that someone please correct me.) Even then I feel 500 ranks of Heavy Plate for one person should be equal to 500 ranks of Heavy Plate for another person, I mean if someone was tertiary they already had to work almost 3x as hard to get to that 500 as someone with Primary armor, why should they deserve less of a reward? Luckily going forward armor will be a more active defense so I really don’t think this should be much of an issue either way.
My hope is that Heavy Plate will be for those who don’t like to rely on evasion (which being evasion tertiary on my Warmie, it would make sense to wear with this thinking.) But right now that’s not really the case in most or even all situations. My hope is that wearing Heavy Plate relying on Parry and Shield will be as viable as wearing leather or chain and relying on parry and evasion (which currently would give a greater defense rank for rank currently, I’m fairly sure.) Then going down the different armor types would benefit different stance combinations. Obviously an evasion heavy stance would want to maximize on ranks of evasion and favor a lighter armor and a shield and armor heavy stance would favor heavier armor.
Speaking of which--has there been any mention of how stances will work in 3.0? Since armor is going to be contested more like Evasion is now, is it going to be affected by stance?
IRONBONE
Re: Armor niche for LP->Brigandine
04/08/2011 02:15 PM CDT
As a Heavy Plate wearing warmage of many many years, I can only hope that once changes roll out, I can still wear the stuff without much notice.
