(no subject) 03/07/2017 10:13 AM CST

I'm back from a 10 year break and getting used to everything again. I was back-training some weapons in an area beneath my typically hunting area and I noticed something that at first I thought was a fluke but I've been able to repeat the issue consistently.

If I have a blade or blunt in my hand I'll parry or evade every time, when throwing an axe or spear (or just standing there empty handed) I'll evade every attack. I can be in there for an hour and not get a single scratch on me. Then . . .

You get a short bow from your backpack.
"the critter lands a strong hit to your chest, knocking you completely senseless."

If I hold a bow or crossbow in my hands I forgot how to evade completely. Like I have a zero skill.

Any suggestions?
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Re: (no subject) 03/07/2017 10:29 AM CST


You can't use parry as a defense while holding a bow/crossbow/sling. Make sure you don't have your defense set to parry if you're going to use aimed weapons.
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Re: (no subject) 03/07/2017 10:40 AM CST
>>You can't use parry as a defense while holding a bow/crossbow/sling. Make sure you don't have your defense set to parry if you're going to use aimed weapons.

To expand some on this: In the big 3.0 conversion Dragonrealms saw a massive overhaul of combat and defense. Where in the past, one could survive on Evasion alone, now Shield/Parry/Evasion are all normalized, and behave the same (mostly), but you NEED to put two defenses between you and getting clobbered. Having points in Parry using a aimable means that defense isn't active, and leaves your vulnerable.

An Arm-Worn shield to stance Shield for aimables, and a Parry Stick for maintaining the ability to parry while NOT holding a ranged weapon will make life much easier.

Samsaren
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Re: (no subject) 03/07/2017 11:47 AM CST


to expand even more, assuming evasion is your highest skill among shield, parry, and evasion:

(1) When you're about to get out your bow/crossbow, first type "stance set 100 0 80"

This will put 100 of your defense points into evasion, 0 into parry, and 80 in to shield. You may see a message about having a couple of extra points. You start with 180, but gain one for every several ranks in Defending you have (cf: https://elanthipedia.play.net/Defending_skill).

So, if you actually have 183 points to spread around, you'd type "stance set 100 0 83".

(2) If you want to use evasion and parry as your primary defenses, you'd instead type "stance set 100 80 0". In each case you'd have 100 points in evasion, then 80 in the other defense.

Of course, other distributions are possible (60 60 60 for relatively even training of all three defenses, for example). And certain defense types are better against certain types of attacks.

As a survival prime, I usually keep 100 points in evasion and then split the other two equally between shield and parry unless I'm using a ranged weapon, but playing around with a variety of stances is definitely something you'll want to do.
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 06:40 AM CST

Typing stance help in game will give a lot of information on stances. I find stance presets especially useful. You can set up a stance then save that stance so when you want to change stances you can just type "stance parry" or "stance shield" Of if you are really lazy like I am .s to hit the script that types stance shield for me.
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 09:39 AM CST


Thank you for the information everyone.
I typically have gone with the 60/60/60 split.

Setting my parry to 0 while using ammo weapons has helped tremendously.
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 09:55 AM CST
So... I've played this game for a lot of years. And I've never really bothered with stance stuff. I've always put 100% in what I was trying to learn, then the additional points in whatever I wanted as backup. My thinking was that it was always 100% of one skill, and using 80% of the other skill. Its just always worked, I've never had a reason to question it. All these people saying "I do 60/60/60 and ya great" here and some others I've talked to IG previously, I don't understand that at all. How could you be successful if you are using 60% of your skill and are fighting at level. Or is it like 60% of the time I have to defend I will use this defense first. It's funny that after playing this long I've never bothered to see the difference. Like I said, my way has always worked just fine for me. I'm just curious now.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 11:08 AM CST


I think the key point is that the game really plays like your defense skills are summed. Lets say I have 100 ranks of shield, parry and evasion. 100% evasion + 80% parry ends up being 180 effective defense points, so someone going 60/60/60 still ends up with the same effective net defense points. Now there's more going on, like I assume behind the scenes each defense is multiplied by it's stance % and then by special factors that influence that defense's effectiveness against a given attack. So parry might be multiplied by zero if it's a ranged attack, or your shield gets multiplied by 90-100% depending on it's size and if the attack is melee or ranged, or evasion might get multiplied by a percent depending on if the enemy is in front, flanking, or behind you. This is the step that would also factor in stat scaling to defenses, your reflexes, discipline, agility, and other stats that influence specific defenses will further influence that defense pools ranks before they are summed.
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 12:51 PM CST
The game essentially calculates some sort of offensive total vs. defensive total, and seems to compensate for attacks that ignore parry/shield/whatever by figuring the overlooked defense into one of the others (i.e. an effective evasion bonus or what-not).

Depending on circumstance, certain spells (like target spells that ignore shield) can still be useful because, for example, bypassing a Paladin's shield is generally going to compensate for any evasion bonus they might be given.

For hunting purposes however keeping your defenses split is fine. I stance my primary defense about 15% higher (i.e. parry as a Barbarian, evasion as a Thief, etc) since the primary pool takes longer to fill, but otherwise keep them split equally.
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 06:01 PM CST
>I stance my primary defense about 15% higher (i.e. parry as a Barbarian, evasion as a Thief, etc) since the primary pool takes longer to fill, but otherwise keep them split equally.

Not contesting what you say or how you hunt. Just food for thought.

Per Kodius...
>Evasion: Takes overall hindrance (armor + shield) and this value penalizes the stat bonus to evasion skill by a large amount, and evasion skill by a smaller amount.
>Parry: Overall hindrance penalizes skill bonus from weapon balance and stats, shield hindrance penalizes parry ranks.
>Shield: Shield hindrance penalizes stat bonus to skill.

Evasion went from being King to being the Court Jester. For now, Shield is King. When you split 60/60/60, at level, you are increasing your penalty to DF across all three defenses as opposed to two at 100/80+. Now, many people put 1 in there so it's 100/80+/1 but this is just for a trickle of learning and doesn't really affect DF much I'd assume. Still the even split across all three is more risky for those of us who push the hunting envelope and are risk averse.

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 06:17 PM CST
Not that I have any evidence that this method is the best, but in PVE I usually put 100 into my top defense and split the difference between the other two. E.g. for a Bard, 100 parry, 40 evasion, 40 shield.

My reasoning is that if there is an additive defensive factor (DF), then getting the most out of my best defense makes sense for giving me a large DF, and putting a decent chunk in the other two keeps their learning at a strong level.


- Navesi
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 06:47 PM CST
> Still the even split across all three is more risky for those of us who push the hunting envelope and are risk averse.

Evidence?
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 07:45 PM CST
>>Evasion went from being King to being the Court Jester.

Considering there are ways to skip both Parry and Shield, this statement is laughable at best. Even as Survival Tert, Evasion is of critical importance. Neglect it at your utmost peril.

Samsaren
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Re: (no subject) 03/08/2017 09:46 PM CST
>Evasion went from being King to being the Court Jester. For now, Shield is King

I don't think this is an accurate assessment.

All my defenses are within ~5 ranks of each other and I have no encumbrance and light armor hindrance. I find the defenses to be roughly analogous, unless I am holding a high-balance weapon with weapon ranks equal to my defenses, then parry seems noticeably better than the other two.

We have to remember we know the penalty situation you listed but not much else. For example, Ssra said that parry is the defense least penalized by a multi opponent situation (which is almost a given when hunting).

I split between three defenses regularly, then evasion/shield for bow use, then parry/evasion for small edged and offhand. I don't notice much difference, I even tried shield/parry once out of curiosity and the result seemed the same.

Mileage will of course vary by skillset/encumbrance/armor burden/stats but assuming all things equal they seem pretty similar performance-wise. Please note the "FOR PLAYER VERSUS ENVIRONMENT NOT FOR PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER" in bold letters surrounding that generalization.
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Re: (no subject) 03/11/2017 06:38 PM CST
>Evidence?

Anecdotal, of course, but I tested it with my wife when she was around because she could pull in tons of critters being a 150+ empath with her spells and what not. We spent a lot of time hunting and testing and noticed that the three way split piled up more damage taken than two way split. Which she liked BTW.

Hey, everyone can do whatever they want and what works for them. With me personally, I push the defense envelope a lot and the three way split gets me a lot more wounds. Again, anecdotal as so many other things could be factoring in.

>>Evasion went from being King to being the Court Jester.

My statement was hyperbole. I train all three defenses and they are within range of one another. My point is that it isn't the king of defenses like it was in the past.

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
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Re: (no subject) 03/12/2017 11:25 PM CDT
Just to put my input in here, I find that you should always have a primary, secondary and tert defense. This meaning that I usually stance highest in evasion which I keep at 100 at all times, then split the two others in usually a 3/4 to 1/4 conversion. I just basically tweak shield and parry to where it shows i'm shield blocking most of the time, but get the occasional parry in there. My stances usually are 100 evasion 60 or so shield and 15-20 parry, give or take some according to points available.
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