You know, returned and I notice folks now using terms such as DPS (Damage Per Second) to describe their effectiveness in combat; WOW flashbacks much? Uh, what numbers are you using to know? I find the term silly for this game, unless I'm missing a number generated feature that you can mathmatically say, yes, I have good DPS...what are you saying? I had 5 Light Hits, 2 Hard hits, equals +Hard DPS? IDK...
Please stop cause it sounds silly.
+Gidske
SOUTHERK
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DPS Terms
11/26/2016 10:41 AM CST
There's no explicit DPS metric as much as acknowledging that some guilds generate damage better than others.
For example, a guild that only does physical damage does less DPS than one that does physical and TM damage. Throw in AoE, cyclics, pets, etc, and the potential for damage shifts as well.
With this in mind, NMU guilds are generally seen as the worst at DPS (poor Barbarians!), while Necros (cyclic AoE, two pets) and Warrior Mages (Cyclic AoE mixed with AoE) are probably the best.
IMO the best way to help level the playing field is two fold:
1) NMUs flat out need secondary damage sources. Traders are getting lunar magic, but thieves and barbarians need some something they can pop off like TM magic during combat.
2) make it so you can't cast TM spells while a cyclic TM is running. It'll make it so you can't have two potential TM channels going at once, and those with cyclic TM can still have an advantage by using debilitation magic in tandem with cyclics.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
For example, a guild that only does physical damage does less DPS than one that does physical and TM damage. Throw in AoE, cyclics, pets, etc, and the potential for damage shifts as well.
With this in mind, NMU guilds are generally seen as the worst at DPS (poor Barbarians!), while Necros (cyclic AoE, two pets) and Warrior Mages (Cyclic AoE mixed with AoE) are probably the best.
IMO the best way to help level the playing field is two fold:
1) NMUs flat out need secondary damage sources. Traders are getting lunar magic, but thieves and barbarians need some something they can pop off like TM magic during combat.
2) make it so you can't cast TM spells while a cyclic TM is running. It'll make it so you can't have two potential TM channels going at once, and those with cyclic TM can still have an advantage by using debilitation magic in tandem with cyclics.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ASHBOMB
Re: DPS Terms
11/26/2016 02:11 PM CST
Barbarians have the highest potential damage against a single target with multi-LT.
Second come Clerics and Necromancers
Then everyone else is in a close pack, with Paladins, Traders, and Empaths at the end of the pack.
AoE changes things with multiple targets.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
Second come Clerics and Necromancers
Then everyone else is in a close pack, with Paladins, Traders, and Empaths at the end of the pack.
AoE changes things with multiple targets.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
TEVESHSZAT
Re: DPS Terms
11/26/2016 03:21 PM CST
>>Barbarians have the highest potential damage against a single target with multi-LT.
Can't everyone throw five blades? Plus I think the RTs stack per blade thrown don't they?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Can't everyone throw five blades? Plus I think the RTs stack per blade thrown don't they?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: DPS Terms
11/26/2016 03:52 PM CST
There's no solid metric for DPS in Dragonrealms since the actual damage figures are hidden from us, but it's a term that has filtered into the general video game lexicon to mean relative damage over time.
As a Barbarian-primary player I don't feel the loss of TM much. Eagle/Dragon form + Wildfire + Tsunami + accuracy/damage expertise buffs mean weapon damage becomes obscene. If another class is technically capable of even more single-target DPS, it probably doesn't matter. The game struggles to throw enough enemies at me when I'm in full kill mode already, and DR doesn't have raid bosses.
I would however love to see the possibilities of mundane (i.e. non-magical) combat thrown wide open. Magic 3.0 has brought tons of QoL updates and ease of use to magic, I'd love to see the same treatment given to normal weapons.
* Multi-hit HT
* Weapon-based debuffs like entangling nets or guaranteed stun maneuvers (duration would still be based on debilitation, but success based on weapon ranks)
* Further combat maneuvers (weapon-based AOE access to guilds besides Barbarians)
* Pulsing weapon-based AOE damage for Thieves and Barbarians
* Passive ripostes/counterattacks
As a Barbarian-primary player I don't feel the loss of TM much. Eagle/Dragon form + Wildfire + Tsunami + accuracy/damage expertise buffs mean weapon damage becomes obscene. If another class is technically capable of even more single-target DPS, it probably doesn't matter. The game struggles to throw enough enemies at me when I'm in full kill mode already, and DR doesn't have raid bosses.
I would however love to see the possibilities of mundane (i.e. non-magical) combat thrown wide open. Magic 3.0 has brought tons of QoL updates and ease of use to magic, I'd love to see the same treatment given to normal weapons.
* Multi-hit HT
* Weapon-based debuffs like entangling nets or guaranteed stun maneuvers (duration would still be based on debilitation, but success based on weapon ranks)
* Further combat maneuvers (weapon-based AOE access to guilds besides Barbarians)
* Pulsing weapon-based AOE damage for Thieves and Barbarians
* Passive ripostes/counterattacks
SHADOWCHIEF6
Re: DPS Terms
11/26/2016 06:16 PM CST
<Barbarians have the highest potential damage against a single target with multi-LT
Not sure if I understand what your getting at here. A necro per say with a zombie, construct and USOL running using LT would still definitely out DPS a Barbarian against a single foe. This is assuming ranks are similar.
Not sure if I understand what your getting at here. A necro per say with a zombie, construct and USOL running using LT would still definitely out DPS a Barbarian against a single foe. This is assuming ranks are similar.
ASHBOMB
Re: DPS Terms
11/27/2016 10:13 AM CST
that's assuming the pets make it to melee in time, which usually won't happen.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
BADGOPHER
Re: DPS Terms
11/27/2016 01:15 PM CST
>that's assuming the pets make it to melee in time, which usually won't happen.
Eh, that's a self defeating argument.
Barbarians don't have 'the most' DPS with a weapon when given the same skill and stats as any other user. Because any other user could also layer TM, cyclic TM, and a pet, on top of the weapons. This is ignoring the buffs and debuffs because they're, while not identical, similar enough to just hand wave.
No, the 'time' portion doesn't really come in to play here; just because a barbarian can get to skill X faster doesn't mean they do more DPS.
Eh, that's a self defeating argument.
Barbarians don't have 'the most' DPS with a weapon when given the same skill and stats as any other user. Because any other user could also layer TM, cyclic TM, and a pet, on top of the weapons. This is ignoring the buffs and debuffs because they're, while not identical, similar enough to just hand wave.
No, the 'time' portion doesn't really come in to play here; just because a barbarian can get to skill X faster doesn't mean they do more DPS.
SHADOWCHIEF6
Re: DPS Terms
11/27/2016 01:59 PM CST
<that's assuming the pets make it to melee in time, which usually won't happen.
I mean I kind of understand where your going with this. The combination of skillset / buffs and other abilities vs other guilds for use with particular weapons like throwing blades is by far better if you took two generally trained characters. I was more or less assuming the DPS would be attributed with the same amount of ranks, for instance say both had 1250 ranks in LT. Sure the barb will out perform by a bit with guild abilities, but the combination of LT and USOL would probably make up for the loss. Not to mention 2 more pets that can be pretty brutal rank for rank.
Plus if you don't think a zombie engages that fast, you need to use one in offense mode with a pole range weapon
I mean I kind of understand where your going with this. The combination of skillset / buffs and other abilities vs other guilds for use with particular weapons like throwing blades is by far better if you took two generally trained characters. I was more or less assuming the DPS would be attributed with the same amount of ranks, for instance say both had 1250 ranks in LT. Sure the barb will out perform by a bit with guild abilities, but the combination of LT and USOL would probably make up for the loss. Not to mention 2 more pets that can be pretty brutal rank for rank.
Plus if you don't think a zombie engages that fast, you need to use one in offense mode with a pole range weapon
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: DPS Terms
11/27/2016 02:45 PM CST
>This is ignoring the buffs and debuffs because they're, while not identical, similar enough to just hand wave.
They're not, though, because while Barbarians only have one stream of DPS, they can layer 7+ different buffs and debuffs that directly affect weapon damage, and the speed at which they kill with said weapons, at one time.
No magic using guild comes close to this. Imagine if, on top of having ROTC and Resonance active at the same time, Bards also had a vanilla capped weapon buff they could use in addition to these two cyclicals, and they had Khri Hasten to lower weapon RT, and they also had a persistent bluff that self-buffed their accuracy and damage, and they had two screams that lowered evasion and defensive stats to all engaged enemies.
Things like engagement time and spawn rate put hard caps on DPS in DR, and I can easily hit the ceiling of that in all but 2-3 hunting areas in the game. What difference does a zombie make if it can't even reach melee range before everything engaged to you is dead? How much difference does a pulsing damage AOE really make if you're swinging a 125 stone greatsword with overwhelming (23/27) slice with 2/3 RT and everything is dying in 6 seconds?
The only clear case of superior DPS I've seen is incredibly rare, like Fire Rain in an invasion scenario, or Harm Horde in zombie stompers (one of those 2-3 hunting areas with obscene spawn which Clerics also happen to get added DPS to v. undead). For everyday hunting, the lack of TM really isn't affecting DPS much.
They're not, though, because while Barbarians only have one stream of DPS, they can layer 7+ different buffs and debuffs that directly affect weapon damage, and the speed at which they kill with said weapons, at one time.
No magic using guild comes close to this. Imagine if, on top of having ROTC and Resonance active at the same time, Bards also had a vanilla capped weapon buff they could use in addition to these two cyclicals, and they had Khri Hasten to lower weapon RT, and they also had a persistent bluff that self-buffed their accuracy and damage, and they had two screams that lowered evasion and defensive stats to all engaged enemies.
Things like engagement time and spawn rate put hard caps on DPS in DR, and I can easily hit the ceiling of that in all but 2-3 hunting areas in the game. What difference does a zombie make if it can't even reach melee range before everything engaged to you is dead? How much difference does a pulsing damage AOE really make if you're swinging a 125 stone greatsword with overwhelming (23/27) slice with 2/3 RT and everything is dying in 6 seconds?
The only clear case of superior DPS I've seen is incredibly rare, like Fire Rain in an invasion scenario, or Harm Horde in zombie stompers (one of those 2-3 hunting areas with obscene spawn which Clerics also happen to get added DPS to v. undead). For everyday hunting, the lack of TM really isn't affecting DPS much.
BADGOPHER
Re: DPS Terms
11/27/2016 03:09 PM CST
>They're not, though, because while Barbarians only have one stream of DPS, they can layer 7+ different buffs and debuffs that directly affect weapon damage, and the speed at which they kill with said weapons, at one time.
Choose to disagree.
Even if I don't, no, the various buffs don't countermand weapons, buffs, debuffs, TM, cyclic TM, and pets.
But this is just going in the same circles it always does, I won't post again.
Choose to disagree.
Even if I don't, no, the various buffs don't countermand weapons, buffs, debuffs, TM, cyclic TM, and pets.
But this is just going in the same circles it always does, I won't post again.
SHADOWCHIEF6
Re: DPS Terms
11/27/2016 03:37 PM CST
<No magic using guild comes close to this. Imagine if, on top of having ROTC and Resonance active at the same time, Bards also had a vanilla capped weapon buff they could use in addition to these two cyclicals, and they had Khri Hasten to lower weapon RT, and they also had a persistent bluff that self-buffed their accuracy and damage, and they had two screams that lowered evasion and defensive stats to all engaged enemies.
In a typical hunting situation it might feel this way, and in a lot of hunting scenarios since critters in DR die so fast its true. I'm more or less comparing in the way a Fire mage compares to say a DOT specced Warlock in WOW. Ones burst damage and the other is DOT. I was moreso comparing a good matched PVP scenario rather than a typical DR Mob. Necromancers also have HP which effects every form of physical damage from themselves and their two pets, which helps.
But yeah I'm not gonna argue the issue anymore because its different with different situations.
In a typical hunting situation it might feel this way, and in a lot of hunting scenarios since critters in DR die so fast its true. I'm more or less comparing in the way a Fire mage compares to say a DOT specced Warlock in WOW. Ones burst damage and the other is DOT. I was moreso comparing a good matched PVP scenario rather than a typical DR Mob. Necromancers also have HP which effects every form of physical damage from themselves and their two pets, which helps.
But yeah I'm not gonna argue the issue anymore because its different with different situations.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: DPS Terms
11/27/2016 05:18 PM CST
>Even if I don't, no, the various buffs don't countermand weapons, buffs, debuffs, TM, cyclic TM, and pets.
No guild gets all this stuff. Well, maybe Necros I guess, and even then they only squeak by with an SE buff.
Most of this stuff is also roundtime-generating and does not work simultaneously. The only real freebies are zombies/Guardian Spirits and long-duration buffs.
>In a typical hunting situation it might feel this way, and in a lot of hunting scenarios since critters in DR die so fast its true. I'm more or less comparing in the way a Fire mage compares to say a DOT specced Warlock in WOW. Ones burst damage and the other is DOT. I was moreso comparing a good matched PVP scenario rather than a typical DR Mob. Necromancers also have HP which effects every form of physical damage from themselves and their two pets, which helps.
PvP is another scenario entirely. In that instance the presence of a pet most definitely is significant in terms of DPS because PvP engagements generally last a bit, and I agree a couple different classes can out-DPS a Barbarian.
No guild gets all this stuff. Well, maybe Necros I guess, and even then they only squeak by with an SE buff.
Most of this stuff is also roundtime-generating and does not work simultaneously. The only real freebies are zombies/Guardian Spirits and long-duration buffs.
>In a typical hunting situation it might feel this way, and in a lot of hunting scenarios since critters in DR die so fast its true. I'm more or less comparing in the way a Fire mage compares to say a DOT specced Warlock in WOW. Ones burst damage and the other is DOT. I was moreso comparing a good matched PVP scenario rather than a typical DR Mob. Necromancers also have HP which effects every form of physical damage from themselves and their two pets, which helps.
PvP is another scenario entirely. In that instance the presence of a pet most definitely is significant in terms of DPS because PvP engagements generally last a bit, and I agree a couple different classes can out-DPS a Barbarian.
SCHLOTTD
Re: DPS Terms
11/29/2016 08:37 PM CST
Just being nit-picky, but
>>>on top of having ROTC and Resonance active at the same time, Bards also had a vanilla capped weapon buff they could use in addition to these two cyclicals
Under current bardic magic, Rage and Resonance are both cast, not cyclical spells. The first is a buff, usually self-cast on the bard, and the latter is a buff cast directly on a weapon.
Meigs
>>>on top of having ROTC and Resonance active at the same time, Bards also had a vanilla capped weapon buff they could use in addition to these two cyclicals
Under current bardic magic, Rage and Resonance are both cast, not cyclical spells. The first is a buff, usually self-cast on the bard, and the latter is a buff cast directly on a weapon.
Meigs
2DUMBARSE
Re: DPS Terms
11/30/2016 03:37 PM CST
I use DPS to mean damage received or inflicted per second (not necessarily RT). If I want to be specific about the DPS source to which I'm referring, I'll add nouns or adjectives (e.g. "weapon" DPS, "aimed TM" DPS, "cyclical TM" DPS). I use "damage" rather than DPS when I'm referring to any specified damage ignorant of time.
Consider this (made up numbers): You have two different weapons of roughly equal skill and similar weapon stat distribution. One does 10 points of damage per 3 RT slice and the other does 13 points of damage per 4 RT slice. Now, you take your new weapons to hunt creature in light armor, which blunts your slices by 2 points, and let's say the creature has 80 hit points. Weapon 1 should kill the creature in 10 slices [80 hit points/(10 slice dmg per hit - 2 armor save)] ignoring RNG and other stuff, while weapon 2 should kill the creature in 8 slices [80 hit points/(13 slice dmg per hit - 2 armor save)]. Weapon 2 clearly does more damage (per strike) because it killed the creature in fewer swings, but if you consider the time spent killing each creature, DPS, weapon 1 comes out ahead, having dealt death in only 30 seconds (10 slices * 3 RT) to weapon 2's 32 seconds (8 slices * 4 RT). If you consider an 80 hit point creature in heavy armor that blunts 5 points of damage, then the picture changes and weapon 2 does higher damage and overall DPS against that creature (40 seconds vs. 48 seconds per kill)
Now, that's looking only at weapons, but you can easily expand on the idea to draw conclusions for other damage sources under different circumstances by looking at creature kills. Let's say you have a weapon that requires aiming. You have to factor the aim time, right? But, what if you can offhand-throw a javelin multiple times while aiming? Well, that alters your DPS picture because it'll cause you to kill in less time even though each weapon's individual damage is relatively low. Same goes with TM + weapons. TM has cast RT, but you can attack with a weapon while aiming, so you have to look at overall kill time. Cyclical TM has no cast time and can be performed with mundane attacks as well as hard cast TM attacks, but then you have to weigh the opportunity cost afforded by going with a TM cyclical spell. What about buffs and debuffs, which can increase damage to some cap? What about armor buffs and debuffs? That clearly skews DPS as we saw before, and we haven't even talked about balance, suitedness and stat mods.
Hopefully this helps. I won't comment on what guild's good or bad at DPS, although I have some opinions on the topic, because I think a lot of perceptions are skewed by circumstance. I also think it's possible for most guilds to optimize their damage to lessen the effects of any perceived or real deficiencies, cookie-cutter implications notwithstanding.
Consider this (made up numbers): You have two different weapons of roughly equal skill and similar weapon stat distribution. One does 10 points of damage per 3 RT slice and the other does 13 points of damage per 4 RT slice. Now, you take your new weapons to hunt creature in light armor, which blunts your slices by 2 points, and let's say the creature has 80 hit points. Weapon 1 should kill the creature in 10 slices [80 hit points/(10 slice dmg per hit - 2 armor save)] ignoring RNG and other stuff, while weapon 2 should kill the creature in 8 slices [80 hit points/(13 slice dmg per hit - 2 armor save)]. Weapon 2 clearly does more damage (per strike) because it killed the creature in fewer swings, but if you consider the time spent killing each creature, DPS, weapon 1 comes out ahead, having dealt death in only 30 seconds (10 slices * 3 RT) to weapon 2's 32 seconds (8 slices * 4 RT). If you consider an 80 hit point creature in heavy armor that blunts 5 points of damage, then the picture changes and weapon 2 does higher damage and overall DPS against that creature (40 seconds vs. 48 seconds per kill)
Now, that's looking only at weapons, but you can easily expand on the idea to draw conclusions for other damage sources under different circumstances by looking at creature kills. Let's say you have a weapon that requires aiming. You have to factor the aim time, right? But, what if you can offhand-throw a javelin multiple times while aiming? Well, that alters your DPS picture because it'll cause you to kill in less time even though each weapon's individual damage is relatively low. Same goes with TM + weapons. TM has cast RT, but you can attack with a weapon while aiming, so you have to look at overall kill time. Cyclical TM has no cast time and can be performed with mundane attacks as well as hard cast TM attacks, but then you have to weigh the opportunity cost afforded by going with a TM cyclical spell. What about buffs and debuffs, which can increase damage to some cap? What about armor buffs and debuffs? That clearly skews DPS as we saw before, and we haven't even talked about balance, suitedness and stat mods.
Hopefully this helps. I won't comment on what guild's good or bad at DPS, although I have some opinions on the topic, because I think a lot of perceptions are skewed by circumstance. I also think it's possible for most guilds to optimize their damage to lessen the effects of any perceived or real deficiencies, cookie-cutter implications notwithstanding.
