Stonebows are all the rage these days for hunting, but are they better for training? I'm playing my baby Cleric and I'm less worried about kill rate or my ammo lodging and more worried about actually training. Does the bonus exp you get from the longer loadtimes on heavy crossbows make them better for actual experience gain than the quick loadtime stonebows?

What shop?

It's been a few years since I've done any testing, but a stonebow shaved off ~1 minute on my time to lock compared to using a 8/9 with store quality bolts. I train both Xbow and Sling so it is less ammo, and I like non-lodging ammo which shards provide. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, and it's just up to each individual's preference.

>>Were you using senci shards?

Obsidian.

>>I wonder if using pulzones would change the answer.

I'm sure it would decrease the crossbow's time to lock, but I don't know by how much.

>>When you say a minute, are we talking 2 vs 3, or 15 vs 16?

9 vs 10. It's not a lot but it's enough if you are trying to cut time in your combat routine. This was several years ago not too long after 3.0 was released and the Xbow exp had been dialed in when I did these test though. It's very possible it's obsolete now.

I swear I would take an edit button over a search feature.

>>Were you using senci shards?

>>Obsidian.

Make that quartzite. Not sure why I thought they were obsidian.

>>It's too bad load reductions don't work on stonebows.

Talking about the skill/stat RT reductions?

They're supposed to be 5/6 at the longest and I'm getting 3/4 with 600+ in Xbow. Seems to be working for me.

I'll give you my opinion since you opened it up to anyone.

If you are training a low circle character it's way better to use a store bought crossbow and bolts. You gain experience from the hardness of hits and the weapon stats and ammo stats play into that more when your are lower circle (less ranks and personal stats). The force of impact is higher with crossbows (especially heavy ones) than stonebows. You'll gain experience faster, at lower circles, with a crossbow.

If money isn't an issue then getting a stonebow and shards (not Senci at low circles) is okay but not optimized for learning until closer to 60+ circles. At that point you want speed (stonebow loads faster) as your stats take over and can give you a better return...sometimes.

I'm of the mind that the weapon/ammo stats combined are the primary means to train and kill fast. The exception is that an arbalest currently has too high of a load+aim time to make it viable in hunting over other crossbow/stonebow options. I use a forester's crossbow with steel-tip bolts from Merkresh as they have good stats and I don't have to lose my pulzone, frog, or quadrello ammo that are way too expensive to potentially lose while just grinding now.

steel-tip bolts
You are certain that it could do:
very heavy puncture damage
poor slice damage
poor impact damage
no fire damage
no cold damage
no electric damage

You are certain that the thin steel-tip bolts are appreciably susceptible to damage, and are in pristine condition.

The thin steel-tip bolts are made with metal.
You are certain that the thin steel-tip bolts weighs exactly 28 stones. (1 stone per bolt)
You are certain that the thin steel-tip bolts are worth exactly 285 Lirums.

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Went over to the test realms and ran a few clear to lock scenarios.

Hand picked end results that had the closest miss rates (as you don't learn anything from missed shots).

You load the maple stonebow with a quartzite stone shard in your hand.
Roundtime 3 sec.

[Script aborted after 06:22.]
Total kills: 3
Total shots: 27.0
Total missed: 2.0
Avg time to kill: 112.26534533333334
Avg shots to kill: 9.0
Avg missed shots: 0.6666666666666666


You load the oak and horn crossbow with a crossbow bolt in your hand.
Roundtime 6 sec.

[Script aborted after 06:07.]
Total kills: 5
Total shots: 20.0
Total missed: 2.0
Avg time to kill: 65.7963176
Avg shots to kill: 4.0
Avg missed shots: 0.4


Time to lock seems roughly the same but even with store bought bolts crossbow wins in dps.

Of course these tests are biased based on my skill and the type of creatures i hunt. It would make quite the difference if those creatures were slice resistant for example.

All in all, i'm still sticking with crossbows. More dps = more loot.

Very interesting results! Has anyone done any testing on repeaters for training?

I use mine mostly for the sake of not needing to carry two or switch, but it seems to keep pace with regular crossbows well enough for training purposes, and obviously it's much faster to begin with if preloaded...

<<If your repeater optimizes damage over time to mind state you want then you are good to go. I've found the repeaters don't do that for training.>>

'Conventional wisdom' agrees with you, but then, conventional wisdom is also that stonebows > all for training, so I'm wondering if it's not time to revisit the notion. I already use my repeater just because I hate carrying two crossbows or switching out for training, and in my unscientific testing it appears to keep pace with or even outpaces a regular LX in speed to lock (using pulzones in both).

<<You don't save any time using a repeater to train over a single shot from my experience because the load time on empty not only takes up a lot of time but you are open to attack while you reload also.>>

Being open to attack would only be an issue if you're overhunt though, wouldn't it? As for time, repeaters are almost always the longer-loading than their counterparts, it's true - but they can be pre-loaded (whiel buffing for example) and re-loaded while not actively training (such as during lulls in the spawn), which reduces that disadvantage significantly.

>Being open to attack would only be an issue if you're overhunt though, wouldn't it? As for time, repeaters are almost always the longer-loading than their counterparts, it's true - but they can be pre-loaded (whiel buffing for example) and re-loaded while not actively training (such as during lulls in the spawn), which reduces that disadvantage significantly

That's true so it depends on your hunting style. As a barbarian I go through each weapon to the mind stat I want in turn. So it's all about style and expectations. For me time out of combat is a detriment. I want critters on me all the time if possible so that's where my view was coming from. Also, I need to hunt at the most extreme level I can when I'm not back training as that's what moves all my skills the best.

For finger wagglers I'm sure this doesn't apply as much as they want to keep magic moving and use weapons as a fill in... I assume.

Repeaters haven't worked well for me in PVE but my experience isn't necessarily the "correct" answer.

You brought up some good and valid points. Cheers!

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

<<As a barbarian I go through each weapon to the mind stat I want in turn. So it's all about style and expectations. For me time out of combat is a detriment. I want critters on me all the time if possible so that's where my view was coming from. Also, I need to hunt at the most extreme level I can when I'm not back training as that's what moves all my skills the best.>>

All of this is also true for my Cleric, for the record!

<<For finger wagglers I'm sure this doesn't apply as much as they want to keep magic moving and use weapons as a fill in... I assume.>>

A possible concern but a good multitasking script results in very little time spent on actual magic training while in combat. Like you said, it can depend a lot on the individual's style.

<<You brought up some good and valid points. Cheers!>>

As did you! I really need to get some testing done...

<<But to get a normal load then a 3 second push for each shot, its just not worth it. You'll lose out on dps.>>

It's more complicated than that, albeit not enough to automatically say one is better than the other.

For starters, you have preloading. This can be done after a hunt before logging out, before a hunt while buffing, or really any time you've got a couple minutes to just eat the RT up front. Done efficiently, it won't cut into your time spent hunting, and that's up to 14 3-RT high-damage shots. So if we assume an average of 6 seconds of aim time, that's 9 seconds per shot, lower than any other crossbow. How MUCH lower depends on the other crossbow in question, which might skew results one way or the other; I don't actually have any great regular low-load-time crossbows.

That time saved by preloading will of course gradually erode after you run out of preloaded shots, HOWEVER if you're like me and you tend to outkill spawn from time to time (not by choice, I often wish things were swarmier) then you end up with a prime opportunity to preload once again.

At lowish levels SO FAR this has allowed my repeater to keep pace with my LX for training, but again, no 'scientific' testing has been done.

<<It's really not more complicated than that. You are not incorrect in your assessment otherwise. You are adding more time to the equation, that makes it slower. And in my case, much less desirable. I own a 14 shot repeater. It's awesome for PVP. Crap for training. That's my .02.>>

But I just explained exactly the way in which it's more complicated than that and you don't appear to have understood, so I dunno what to do with those two cents :(

I'll try to do some testing once I get my inventories sorted from the fest. I definitely don't anticipate it being faster than other crossbows over the course of a hunt, but the traditional 'crap for training' wisdom isn't AS accurate as I'd previously thought, so maybe it'll land in the same ballpark.

<<If you hunt for a good length of time, like I do for instance... it's not worth it. There's no real advantage. So why wouldn't I use a weapon that loads faster and hits as hard or harder?>>

That was my exact assumption, up until I got annoyed at the idea of needing a different weapon for PvP versus PvE (or the prospect of carrying two around) and tried it on a whim. Like I said before, this is unscientific and at fairly low ranks/stats, BUT using an LX versus an HX repeater with one second longer load (four seconds if you include PUSH) the difference in training time is negligible and even appears to favor the repeater slightly.

Also, while I don't doubt that senci shards hit hard, do they hit as hard as pulzones from an HX repeater? Worth investigating, I unfortunately don't have senci to test with.

I don't know why you're ignoring the other factor I mentioned, lulls in the spawn. Ideally you wouldn't have those it's true, and if you're hunting something ultra-swarmy YMMV on repeaters. But on some of the best things I can find to hunt I do still sometimes run out, especially as I get closer to capping an area. In any scenario in which you can preload more than one bolt without negatively impacting your other weapons, that shifts the needle toward a repeater's favor. The question is, is it enough to outweigh the extra loading time?

For the record, I'm not saying I know or even think it's likely that they train better, just that the real-world gap may not be as big, and conventional wisdom (that they are garbage for training) may not be completely accurate, and that it's probably worth checking out.

<<it's not worth it. There's no real advantage.>>

I think the underlying point is that there doesn't need to be an advantage. The repeater already has a very clear advantage in PvP, so it's earned its place in your loadout. The question is, can the other options recommend themselves ENOUGH in terms of training efficiency to be worth carrying two crossbows and potentially two types of ammo!

That's my take, anyway.

The reason repeaters take a hit is that most people don't cycle combat like you do, user CHUNGUS.

If you're doing more than a single rotation, repeaters lose DPS because they have a full length load time coupled with another 3 seconds of RT per shot.

That's really the end of the discussion. It doesn't matter when/how you load. If you're staying in combat for longer than it takes to fire off your entire repeater magazine, it's lower DPS.

It doesn't matter how, when, or why you have to reload the repeater. They have lower DPS because of the push, if you're doing more than a single rotation of loads commands.

You're getting away with it specifically because you have a 14 bolt repeater, and partially because you're not training the weapon, you're using it as an opener.

Some people just have to be right.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

Go ahead and test it. No one else apparently speaks from any experience in the matter at all. It's your time, not mine. I'm done here.


Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

< No one else apparently speaks from any experience in the matter at all.

Before this thread goes further with attacks please test this and share what you come up with. I for one am curious what you might find.

I do have a 14 shot, although I found it much simpler to keep it loaded with high end ammo and train with a stonebow. The main reason for me is I already do lots of micro managing with my hunting scripts and I really could not find a way to reload with enough efficiency to warrant adding a repeater into my normal hunting scripts. The stonebow solved this with simplicity. However, I have not done any testing to see how the various types of crossbows stack up to each other with regards to learning.