Howdy folks. Been working some more on the new crossbow numbers. I am challenged to find a home for repeaters that is fair and balanced.

Further complicating efforts is the RT reduction crossbows get from skill and stats.

LC - 2 seconds
HC - 3 seconds
Arb - 6 seconds

The size of this reduction makes it impossible to balance crossbows. There's just no way to do it. Either crossbows are horrible pre-500 ranks, or they are awesome post-500 ranks. The only way to fix this is to reduce the RTs across the board and likewise remove the RT reduction from stat/skill.

So this is what I am proposing:

* Stats/skills gives a % chance for a 1 second load reduction. More stats/skill, more chance of the reduction.
* Lower load times across the board for new crossbows
* Increase damage multiplier of new crossbows a bit

For load times I'll show them as Base / With Stat-skill reduction / With out-of-hand load reduction

Damage modifiers are made up, but reflective of the magnitudes we are talking about.



So in today's world we have a forester LC. It has a load time of 9/7/6. It does 100% damage modifier.

In the new system we'd have a forester LC. It has a load time of 7/5/4. It does 120% damage modifier.


So this lightest-crossbow then acts quite similar to a new capped composite bow. Similar stats, load times and function.

My goal is to have all the bow types overlap a bit to give more flexibility to players' RP/playstyle choices. And this accomplishes it.



In today's system we have a heavy xbow. It has a load time of 12/9/8. It does 120% damage modifier.

In the new system we have a heavy xbow. It has a load time of 9/8/7. It does 133% damage modifier.



And arbalests... they have load time of 18/12/11. They do 150% damage modifier.
In the new system they have load time of 11/10/9. They do 155% damage modifier.



Load + Aim + Fire times (assuming loading from container)

5 + 6 + 1 = 12 seconds for new lightest LC

8 + 6 + 1 = 15 seconds for new middle HC

10 + 6 + 1 = 17 seconds for new middle Arb



DPS comes out to

120% / 12 = 10% /second

140% / 15 = 9.3% /second

155% / 17 = 9.1% / second


Harder-hitting weapons penetrate armor more effectively. So DPS decreases slightly with harder hitting weapons to compensate for this. There are also factors such as having pre-loaded the weapon and alpha-striking a target that factor into how much damage it should do per second.


So ultimately the goals for NEW crossbows are:

Faster loading xbows
Slightly higher xbow damage
Some overlap with composite bows
Wider range of crossbow options
Get the DPS curve back in line somewhat


What remains an issue is what to do with the 14-bolt repeaters that break DPS calculations. I am inclined to leave them alone. They'll continue to operate with the same damage, load times and everything. But we'd remove them from the loot piles and let them atrophy over time.

New repeaters would exist, but they'd be designed with balance in mind.


Any thoughts on all this before I begin pushing the new templates into the system? Thanks!

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

and I figure that these implements would effect future store/shop/loot xbows as well?

Crossbow weight will not affect performance. Though just like with the other systems, heavier woods will often tend to favor more durability and arbalests will be heavier than light crossbows.

I'll be adding ways for GMs to easily create crossbows/bolts using the new templates for use with future shops/auctions/prizes.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Yup, stonebows are in there too.

My plan for them is:

Slings (Tailoring)
Staffslings (Where should these go!??)
Stonebows (tinkering)


Slings having load times of 1,2,3
Staffslings having load times of 3,4,5
Stonebows having load times of 5,6,7

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>Shaping?

I'm leaning more toward tailoring. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding how they look/function (entirely possible), it's more like a sling attached to a long haft than a bow. I think the staff is more like attaching a pole or a hilt to a weapon than anything else.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>DR-Kodius: Any thoughts on all this before I begin pushing the new templates into the system? Thanks!

That sounds good to me.

Will repeaters be player-made?


>>DR-Kodius: What remains an issue is what to do with the 14-bolt repeaters that break DPS calculations. I am inclined to leave them alone. They'll continue to operate with the same damage, load times and everything. But we'd remove them from the loot piles and let them atrophy over time.

If the 14-bolt repeaters are that unbalanced, you might consider reducing their damage a bit in addition to removing them from future loot.

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>>Badgopher: Would it be better to have an extra 1 second of RT for the lightest crossbow set just to account for 'full use of shield' benefits? Otherwise, you end up with no real reason to use composite over crossbow.

I think the overlap is intended to give people different RP/playstyle options without locking them into one choice or another for mechanical reasons.

"My goal is to have all the bow types overlap a bit to give more flexibility to players' RP/playstyle choices. And this accomplishes it." --Armifer

---

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>>Staffslings (Where should these go!??)

I say tailoring. That way each of the three missile type weapons are created through the use of their respective crafting discipline to keep things even. I.e. all sling-type weapons are tailoring, all bow-type weapons are shaping, and all crossbow-type weapons are tinkering.

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Kodius,

I personally have always been a huge fan of the stat/skill based ability to decrease your load on a crossbow. I would love to see it applied to bows as well honestly. But that's me. I'm big on a dash more realism though.

So currently from my previous notes we are looking at the following...

LX

No minimum strength requirement.

First Reduction:
35 Agility, combination of strength/agility 60, 250 ranks

Second Reduction:
60 Agility, combination of strength/agility 110, 500 ranks

HX (non-arbalest type)

First Reduction:
30 Strength, combination of strength/agility 60, 200 ranks

Second Reduction:
45 Strength, combination of strength/agility 80, 350 ranks

Third Reduction:
60 Strength, combination of strength/agility 110, 500 ranks

HX (arbalest type)

First Reduction:
25 Strength, combination of strength/agility 40, 150 ranks

Second Reduction:
35 Strength, combination of strength/agility 60, 250 ranks

Third Reduction:
45 Strength, combination of strength/agility 80, 350 ranks

Fourth Reduction:
55 Strength, combination of strength/agility 100, 450 ranks

I would propose perhaps instead spreading it out more? I've worked a long time for my reductions and as a crossbow user I'd sure hate to lose them. To me personally it makes sense that I should be able to move faster and load quicker. I would even go so far to say that perhaps crossbows would be more STR weighted than AGI based and if you'd consider a similar program for bows, the opposite in that they'd be more AGI than STR. So perhaps a minimum req for each. I'd also do a flat 3 reductions for each template. For instance...

LX

First Reduction:
35 Strength, combination of strength/agility 60, 250 ranks

Second Reduction:
55 Strength, combination of strength/agility 100, 500 ranks

Third Reduction:
75 Strength, combination of strength/agility 125, 750 ranks

HX (non-arbalest type)

First Reduction:
40 Strength, combination of strength/agility 70, 250 ranks

Second Reduction:
60 Strength, combination of strength/agility 110, 500 ranks

Third Reduction:
80 Strength, combination of strength/agility 135, 750 ranks

HX (arbalest type)

First Reduction:
50 Strength, combination of strength/agility 90, 250 ranks

Second Reduction:
70 Strength, combination of strength/agility 130, 500 ranks

Third Reduction:
90 Strength, combination of strength/agility 155, 750 ranks

I think that still gives people something to shoot for (pun intended), as well as keeping things fairly realistic.

I would apply the same to repeaters (new and old), allowing you to shave your time off of the actual load. And I'd let them fall out through attrition. (REALLY missing my wicked old 5/6 forresters these days).


Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>>If they will atrophy.

I never said anything about atrophying. I said I wasn't planning on touching them and just removing them from future runs.

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>Can you explain how they break DPS calculations?

Just to be thorough....

I'm talking about PvP, events, boss-fights and other short-duration combat settings. In PvE I can see them being less attractive due to the overall-longer RTs involved.


Normal heavy crossbow is something like an 8 second load, 6 second aim, 1 second fire. This is 15 seconds total.

A pre-loaded repeater reloads in 3 seconds. This takes only 10 seconds total. You increase the DPS by 50% for those 14 shots. Most PvP is over by the time you've fired 14 times assuming each bolt is doing at least 6% of health (as damage will increase as damage is done).

Killing a player with a normal crossbow would take 15 * 14 = 210 seconds
Killing a player with a 14-shot repeater takes 10 * 14 = 140 seconds

This is a remarkable difference!

New repeaters will likely function identically to old repeaters, but with a lower cap on the maximum shots. So no... no need for trade ins.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

--Templates


I should point out that I suppose having overlapping templates at the lower end doesn't really matter as long as the mid/upper end templates still retain a lot of their unique characteristics.

I just worry for having so many templates being so similar. But I suppose if its not very much work to just add more templates having MORE can't hurt, as long as it doesn't detract from the overall crossbow feeling.

I hope that makes sense.


Thanks!

>>They were approved in the old system

I think that's the point. They were approved in an old system. New systems come around, they might not be as good to have.

>>why not just leave them in and update for the new system?

Like all weapons previously released in the game, they're not going anywhere. From what I've read so far, they're just not going to have new ones that let you shoot 10+ bolts in a row released in the system via quests/auctions/etc.

>>Then... whats to stop me from getting two 5x crossbows?

IMO, this is less likely to justify 10x+ repeaters and more likely to justify rethinking how many loaded crossbows someone can wear at once.

>> You see it as atrophy but those of us using the items or that have them don't see it that way.

AFAIK, those repeaters aren't changing (short of how stat-based loading RT reductions work, probably, I guess). There might just be more attractive options in the future. I think that when Kodius said atrophy, he meant in the sense that, as time goes on, items just naturally attrition out of the game, like when a player stop playing.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>Isn't that exactly what was said? Did I miss something?

I think there's a misunderstanding that old repeaters are going to explode vs just not be released anymore.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

<<I don't see a problem at all. They were approved in the old system, why not just leave them in and update for the new system?>>

>> Isn't that exactly what was said? Did I miss something?

He said he's not going to update them for the new system. Assuming the new system is more favorable then the old system (because hes worried about DPS), they will largely become obsolete in favor of the 4x/5x/6x repeaters.

This will simply be the case of "lets release subpar items with a cool twist" and then... no one uses them. For example, Grey Raven Guard Ring. It does cool things, yet the templates are inferior so it doesn't get used.

If the smaller versions of repeaters are "better", people will not use the 14x repeater just because it has more ammo. They will use the harder hitting/more accurate/less RT templates.

Esp. considering the 4,500 scrip price.

>>Assuming the new system is more favorable then the old system

Assumptions tend to be problematic :/

If the old repeaters are overpowered, why would new repeaters be even better?

I'm suggesting we would leave them alone and not upset players that spent good money on them.


Old Repeater - 14 shots, 8-second load, 3-second change, 150% damage bonus.

New Repeater - 7 shots, 7-second load, 3-second change, 140% damage bonus.

Something like that....


If it is possible to abuse crossbow loading in fun and creative ways, I'll look at how we might eliminate it. Either through limiting the # that can be worn or by adding RT when using GET/STOW with a loaded repeater (so you don't accidentally shoot yourself with it).

This is all for a good reason. Game balance is important. I want every weapon in the game to be viable, with no clear winner for all situations.

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>It's not going to happen like this. If he doesn't update the 14x repeaters they are going in a bucket. People will simply swap over to the new 4x, 5x, 6x, repeaters to use the new mechanics.

AFAIK most gear hasn't gotten an "update" when newer/better gear shows up, too. If you're using it now and it works for you now, I think it is going to still work the same way. The only thing that will change is you wanting to use another one instead, if you decided to.

>>for example, Grey Raven Guard Ring. It does cool things, yet the templates are inferior so it doesn't get used.

Aren't the ring weapons all T5 while the individual shop ones T6?

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Let's get this out into Test already.

fail chance on wet weather conditions.
striker failures, backfires, misfires, sorcery has em, high alpha weapons, why not?
if arbalests would be getting an rt reduction then there is room beyond that rt again, no?

dwarfs got electric. zef ships had cannons. its in the canon, get it, canon?

bayonets and butt strikes.

or ye old barrel on a stick.

lit fuses prevent hiding.smoke after a shot lowers your perception, or stuns you, or you have to regain balance from recoil

carved stocks, forged barrels, engineered strikers, alchemied powder, forged or engineered ammo, tailored lashings or slings, or ammo pouches, blacksmithed powder loading tools.
grenades? light thrown, crafted from mining mats, forged metal casings, alchemied powder, tailored fuse,

the final scene from last of the mohicans, r just decked out in buckskins dual wielding long rifles because magua would make himself into what twisted him, like the yan-kee traders

could see where xbows wind up top end, and scale from that point in an overlap?
or perhaps borrow something from magic effects rather than raw damage you cause some sort of alternate effect that you could value in place of raw damage. proportional to the rt

so top raw damage caps at largest arbalest then larger ranged weapons introduces arbalest numbers with a scaling secondary (or tertiary, after foi?) on hit effect that is not damage.