As a Barbarian who was rolled to take advantage of the Predator path, and a long time lover of crossbows I was super happy to see them rolled into one. Now I get to use HX and/or LX and I'm having a ton of fun with it. I also rolled my Barb to do as much RPd/PVP as I could muster once hes not 25% of the skill most of the DR players today have. So due to this I picked a range of weapons so I could be tactical in the way of learning my opponents weaknesses and attacking them. One of the tactics I love is shield/crossbow or using stealth to get an open on people and then swapping to my blades/brawling and what not. Now I'm not for gossip, but I have been told by many larger more skilled characters that right now ranged is almost pointless in pvp. I don't plan for it to be my only way to fight by any means but I would like to know IF this is true, is ranged going to be buffed at all. Mainly I was just told of more than a few times when people with very large ranks in crossbow/bow were missing people on the floor with bleeders or jut missing shots they should not at all. If its not true awesome! I just made my character to take advantage or the Predator tree so its kind of important.
Don't get me wrong I think ranged was possibly to strong before, but then anything that made contact first killed you and with our advancing system ranged got the first shot...no pun intended. I also know that Kodius and the others have been doing a HUGE amount of work that I'm very grateful for so I'm just asking if this is a issue so I can plan out my character. As of now Crossbow is my highest weapon, but then all my weapons are within 10 ranks of one another and I train 6/7 not counting mastery.
HEITAK
DEFOL
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 03:16 AM CST
I'm not your highly experienced and good with PVP type but I too have noticed the same tendencies that you described, as of late.
My thoughts on this is that ranged weapons used to be good because while difficult to pull off a shot they were still hitting pretty hard and most times you were able to get your target off guard by starting a fight with a fight ending shot.
Now, in the spirit of 3.0 changes all the upper end damage has been capped so that it does not cause any instant death type of situations. I believe that was the main argument pre-3.0 - a fight was over once the first hit landed on target. The upper damage limit right now seems to be in line with melee. Correct me if I'm wrong but to me it seems that slice hits about as hard as a full aimed shot from a crossbow. Realistically there is no way you can put out the same kind of damage with a ranged weapon as you could with a melee weapon. It makes more sense to just walk up to your target, take that one shot (wont hit very hard) and just destroy him in melee. If your target attempts to retreat, even better.
The projectile types i guess still have their place in the world and that is for sniping. This is also the most probable cause for the lack of damage overall but i don't know if this is the right way to balance things.
On the other side I've been hearing a lot of good things about heavy thrown. With heavy thrown it does not take any extra time to set up your attack - just pull it out and throw it.
But going back to the original topic. It really does not look good for the projectiles right now. There is just not much room to work with this. You can't raise the damage for ranged without going back to the original issue and you can't lower the damage on melee or it will be impossible to kill anything. Looking from a Barbarians perspective i would not put too much hope on crossbows right now and would rather focus on heavy thrown if possible.
My thoughts on this is that ranged weapons used to be good because while difficult to pull off a shot they were still hitting pretty hard and most times you were able to get your target off guard by starting a fight with a fight ending shot.
Now, in the spirit of 3.0 changes all the upper end damage has been capped so that it does not cause any instant death type of situations. I believe that was the main argument pre-3.0 - a fight was over once the first hit landed on target. The upper damage limit right now seems to be in line with melee. Correct me if I'm wrong but to me it seems that slice hits about as hard as a full aimed shot from a crossbow. Realistically there is no way you can put out the same kind of damage with a ranged weapon as you could with a melee weapon. It makes more sense to just walk up to your target, take that one shot (wont hit very hard) and just destroy him in melee. If your target attempts to retreat, even better.
The projectile types i guess still have their place in the world and that is for sniping. This is also the most probable cause for the lack of damage overall but i don't know if this is the right way to balance things.
On the other side I've been hearing a lot of good things about heavy thrown. With heavy thrown it does not take any extra time to set up your attack - just pull it out and throw it.
But going back to the original topic. It really does not look good for the projectiles right now. There is just not much room to work with this. You can't raise the damage for ranged without going back to the original issue and you can't lower the damage on melee or it will be impossible to kill anything. Looking from a Barbarians perspective i would not put too much hope on crossbows right now and would rather focus on heavy thrown if possible.
MOCKERJB
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 08:12 AM CST
<<but I have been told by many larger more skilled characters that right now ranged is almost pointless in pvp.>>
This is accurate for crossbow; it is not accurate for LT and HT. Crossbow is a terrible choice in basically all scenarios right now. Draw a blade and get to melee as quickly as you can or (and I strongly strongly suggest this option) use/train HT. It's miles ahead of crossbow in both accuracy and damage per second. Crossbow is currently only a good option when you have nothing else at all, so, for a barb, I would use it as I advanced (if I had no other ranged) and if my opponent rapidly retreated (as I advanced again). Otherwise, get a melee weapon out.
Crossbow is my primary ranged weapon and I think our hopes with it come down to two things: (1) someone official compares crossbow to HT in accuracy and damage and it's tweaked accordingly, (2) crossbow and bolt fletching open the door to MASSIVE improvements in accuracy and damage in the weapon class. As it is right now, even the rarest of the rare crossbows is terrible. My full aim shots miss on opponents I connect with on every "draw" with my melee 2HE weapon, despite crossbow having more ranks--identical balance on the sword and slurbow I use. Maybe that's simply because shield is so much better vs ranged than melee and pvp opponents are always heavily shield-stance. Maybe HT operates differently, because it outperforms. I don't know about the other ranged.
In any case, crossbow is useless to me right now pvp at level. Train HT or go melee until we have it fixed/fletchable etc.
This is accurate for crossbow; it is not accurate for LT and HT. Crossbow is a terrible choice in basically all scenarios right now. Draw a blade and get to melee as quickly as you can or (and I strongly strongly suggest this option) use/train HT. It's miles ahead of crossbow in both accuracy and damage per second. Crossbow is currently only a good option when you have nothing else at all, so, for a barb, I would use it as I advanced (if I had no other ranged) and if my opponent rapidly retreated (as I advanced again). Otherwise, get a melee weapon out.
Crossbow is my primary ranged weapon and I think our hopes with it come down to two things: (1) someone official compares crossbow to HT in accuracy and damage and it's tweaked accordingly, (2) crossbow and bolt fletching open the door to MASSIVE improvements in accuracy and damage in the weapon class. As it is right now, even the rarest of the rare crossbows is terrible. My full aim shots miss on opponents I connect with on every "draw" with my melee 2HE weapon, despite crossbow having more ranks--identical balance on the sword and slurbow I use. Maybe that's simply because shield is so much better vs ranged than melee and pvp opponents are always heavily shield-stance. Maybe HT operates differently, because it outperforms. I don't know about the other ranged.
In any case, crossbow is useless to me right now pvp at level. Train HT or go melee until we have it fixed/fletchable etc.
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 08:45 AM CST
>>In any case, crossbow is useless to me right now pvp at level.
I think stick bows are on the weaker side of balanced now as well.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
I think stick bows are on the weaker side of balanced now as well.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
VEE-REX
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 10:05 AM CST
Not only did bow/crossbow get put on the melee calcs, but it appears that whatever 'feature' in 2.0 that had shield completely owning thrown was not moved to 3.0. In 2.0, someone with significantly less defenses could block my thrown easily. To-hit feels just fine with thrown weapons to me, but I'm not sure if top end damage thrown could be considered balanced (especially with HT). I do know non-haralun/tyrium throwing axe LT is very weak.
I suggest training what you want to train. If you love the Predator route then keep training that bow/xbow. It shouldn't hurt to add in a thrown weapon, but don't completely swap one out for the other. You never know what future changes are down the pipe, and your interest is more maintained when you're going a certain way you want to go.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I suggest training what you want to train. If you love the Predator route then keep training that bow/xbow. It shouldn't hurt to add in a thrown weapon, but don't completely swap one out for the other. You never know what future changes are down the pipe, and your interest is more maintained when you're going a certain way you want to go.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
HEITAK
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 11:10 AM CST
Yeah I train 2HE/HE/Brawl/Crossbow/LT/Offhand all pretty much at lvl. with HT like 200 ranks below. When I made this character I kept in mind things change so I made him versatile, I doubt they will scrap a dance/berserk and tornado/eagle with crossbow would be a sweet combo. I have not seen much of a problem with the damage, what is being said is it just whiffs left and right. I didnt think crossbows would be 1 shot kills, but I see no reason for a Predator barb with panther/eagle to be able to poach a target and at least stun him with a bleeder. Or even a expertise that lets us target a leg or something with no negative to called shot as an opener so I can then swap to melee. Would it end the fight..no but it would mentally put them on the defense and give me the advantage that every stalking predator wants to have I.E lions, tigers and ....great white sharks! lol.
Thanks for the input, guess I need a Tyrium LT for now and I'm just going to keep on hacking away with Heitak. Thank god I did make him 1 dimensional. One more question, Im not sure the new app on Slurbows but I did buy this and I like it a lot. How does it compare to other crossbows?
A shh'oi crossbow reinforced with bleached bone is a heavy crossbow type weapon.
A shh'oi crossbow reinforced with bleached bone trains the crossbow skill.
The shh'oi crossbow is perfectly designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the crossbow is fairly balanced and is reasonably suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the shh'oi crossbow is appreciably susceptible to damage, and is in pristine condition.
The shh'oi crossbow is made with metal.
It appears that the shh'oi crossbow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are confident that the shh'oi crossbow might weigh a few hundred stones.
You are certain that the shh'oi crossbow is worth exactly 157353 dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
R> look at shh cross
Dark crimson lettering carved into the wood stock shows the words "Shatter my enemies".
Thanks!
JULIAN
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 12:47 PM CST
>>To-hit feels just fine with thrown weapons to me, but I'm not sure if top end damage thrown could be considered balanced (especially with HT).<<
FWIW, my plain steel off-the-caraamon-rack throwing hammer seems to out DPS everything else in my character's arsenal (including TM, qq) with fewer ranks.
FWIW, my plain steel off-the-caraamon-rack throwing hammer seems to out DPS everything else in my character's arsenal (including TM, qq) with fewer ranks.
REASONMJ
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 01:52 PM CST
>>I suggest training what you want to train. If you love the Predator route then keep training that bow/xbow.
I'd suggest this too. By the time you train up your character to a decent level, many things will have changed and the state of PVP as it stands today will be completely irrelevant. It's not like there is any reason to think crossbows won't be improved later on (especially when they obviously will improve whenever they are craftable)
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
I'd suggest this too. By the time you train up your character to a decent level, many things will have changed and the state of PVP as it stands today will be completely irrelevant. It's not like there is any reason to think crossbows won't be improved later on (especially when they obviously will improve whenever they are craftable)
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
GORTEOUS
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 02:24 PM CST
I think the biggest issue with bows and crossbows is the accuracy. Maybe bump up the base non-aim accuracy slightly and ask the players how it feels and compares?
Another huge thing is the critical miss chance. You critical miss with a blade, and waste 2-3 seconds. Do it with a heavy crossbow, and that's 14-20 seconds gone.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Another huge thing is the critical miss chance. You critical miss with a blade, and waste 2-3 seconds. Do it with a heavy crossbow, and that's 14-20 seconds gone.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
PSX71
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 04:00 PM CST
>>>Another huge thing is the critical miss chance. You critical miss with a blade, and waste 2-3 seconds. Do it with a heavy crossbow, and that's 14-20 seconds gone.<<<
Ding ding ding Winner!
MOCKERJB
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 08:35 PM CST
<<I think the biggest issue with bows and crossbows is the accuracy.>>
Absolutely agree.
Absolutely agree.
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 09:50 PM CST
>>I think the biggest issue with bows and crossbows is the accuracy.
Has anyone tested their accuracy ratio? I did a couple 100 shot tests, 1st shot only, slight advantage with 405 bow vs dobeks and I hit ~90% of the time.
Poach increased it to ~95%
If load is 1sec, and full aim is 10sec plus 1 second fire, I guess with misses you could say that your "effective" time per shot is 13.3 and this is with the fastest loading shortbow in the game and the ranger load from quiver bonus.
I feel your pain with crossbow and a 10+second load time, plus aim and fire. That 10% miss ratio starts to get a bit painful.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
Has anyone tested their accuracy ratio? I did a couple 100 shot tests, 1st shot only, slight advantage with 405 bow vs dobeks and I hit ~90% of the time.
Poach increased it to ~95%
If load is 1sec, and full aim is 10sec plus 1 second fire, I guess with misses you could say that your "effective" time per shot is 13.3 and this is with the fastest loading shortbow in the game and the ranger load from quiver bonus.
I feel your pain with crossbow and a 10+second load time, plus aim and fire. That 10% miss ratio starts to get a bit painful.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
HEITAK
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/07/2013 10:59 PM CST
Is seems the problem is more so in pvp, maybe due to the how defense vs ranged is being calculated now? All I know is I hear a lot of reports of people whiffing when it SEEMS they should not be.
HEITAK
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/08/2013 04:01 PM CST
One more thing, granted this is a bow not a crossbow and were in a game, still really cool for ranged users.
http://youtu.be/Gq7iV4D0cZg
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/08/2013 10:14 PM CST
Seems like the guy is using a shortbow and fast shooting? I don't get what's super special about it, and the synth-voice was insanely obnoxious.
All of his shots for super-accuracy were at very close range, that I saw, his fast shot, 69 meter ranged ones were a foot apart (that's a bad grouping), and I'm willing to be the penetration on that bow isn't very good.
Modern archery is primarily a hunting/sport activity. Dude seems like he's going for 'war archery' in the old style, which was forgotten because it's not particularly useful for the two niches we use archery for now adays, and is a specific discipline on it's own, rather like sword or spear fighting.
Pants.
All of his shots for super-accuracy were at very close range, that I saw, his fast shot, 69 meter ranged ones were a foot apart (that's a bad grouping), and I'm willing to be the penetration on that bow isn't very good.
Modern archery is primarily a hunting/sport activity. Dude seems like he's going for 'war archery' in the old style, which was forgotten because it's not particularly useful for the two niches we use archery for now adays, and is a specific discipline on it's own, rather like sword or spear fighting.
Pants.
GREIFENTHAL
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/09/2013 12:27 PM CST
As a longbow deer hunter irl I can say what that guy is doing there is pretty danged impress e. His bow was only 35 lbs so would not be legal for deer hunting but that technique would be very useful for pheasant and rabbit hunting and with a higher draw weight bow would be amazingly useful for still hunting deer. A 1 foot group at almost 70 meters at that speed and on instinct is actually outstanding.
I don't see how it could be applied to DR but that may be due to a lapse of creativity on my part at the moment.
I don't see how it could be applied to DR but that may be due to a lapse of creativity on my part at the moment.
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/09/2013 02:00 PM CST
Is crossbow accuracy really that bad? I don't think there's anything special about thrown accuracy really, I have a very hard time getting past shield at all if the person is around the same skill level with defenses as my LT. Add a hard time hitting with damage mitigation and it makes a hard time doing much damage for me at least in PvP. I could see it being a bit different with a barbarian or such that can boost to hit and weapon damage.
I'm liking the new kertig throwing axe though, i'm going from scoring light/good hits to hard or so on average. Like its been said before, a regular old throwing club or what not in pvp is pretty crappy I think Vinjince had to hit me like 30 times or so with one to take me out and he had 200+ ranks of LT over my evasion (which is a bit higher than my shield) and better stats.
I'm liking the new kertig throwing axe though, i'm going from scoring light/good hits to hard or so on average. Like its been said before, a regular old throwing club or what not in pvp is pretty crappy I think Vinjince had to hit me like 30 times or so with one to take me out and he had 200+ ranks of LT over my evasion (which is a bit higher than my shield) and better stats.
MOCKERJB
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/09/2013 04:00 PM CST
I have less 2HE than crossbow and using weapons with identical balance stats, I connect against a challenging shield-using opponent much, much more often with Draw (accuracy boost on melee) than I do with fully aimed crossbow shot. Like, it's not even close. I can consistently hit things with a sword under those conditions that I cannot hit at all with crossbow. My understanding is that shield is typically stronger vs ranged than melee though, so that might be all that it is. For me currently, crossbow is an additional tool for when I heavily outclass something, but given its prohibitive roundtime, I'm relying heavily on having a 10-shot repeater. As a MM, I don't use boosts for 2HE or crossbow when I'm fighting (don't have a tool bonded well enough to risk predictions, yet) so I don't think that's the issue, at least for me.
I have no idea personally how things square between crossbow and thrown for accuracy, but I've asked a couple people with parity bow/HT to test their to-hit stuff, and thrown seemed to be considerably more accurate. Those casual tests were not near the level needed to make a meaningful conclusion, except for a couple people to say "yeah, I'm pushing HT more now." My understanding of LT is that it's not all that scary unless you have the tyrium axe bonded.
I have no idea personally how things square between crossbow and thrown for accuracy, but I've asked a couple people with parity bow/HT to test their to-hit stuff, and thrown seemed to be considerably more accurate. Those casual tests were not near the level needed to make a meaningful conclusion, except for a couple people to say "yeah, I'm pushing HT more now." My understanding of LT is that it's not all that scary unless you have the tyrium axe bonded.
HEITAK
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/09/2013 10:08 PM CST
What is so amazing about the guy shooting, is everything he did. Getting 10 shots of in 4.5 seconds, shooting 11 arrows into the air before the first one hits the ground. It's like he said, shooting the way he does has made him shots instinctive. Just some cool food for thought when playing a character shooting a bow and what not. The way we see things today could be very far off from how they were then, when people worked with his/her weapon all day using war proved techniques...cool stuff.
BINU
Re: Will ranged be balanced for pvp?
03/10/2013 06:42 AM CDT
>>and the synth-voice was insanely obnoxious.
So terribly obnoxious.
So terribly obnoxious.
