Right now PvP combat at-level or even where one person is clearly outclassed feels like a couple of people in fat sumo suits slapping at each other. It takes an age even when it's clear one person is going to win eventually and it is incredibly easy to simply retreat and run away. While I am very glad the one-hit-kill thing is gone, we have swung way too far in the other direction and this isn't fun or interesting, just tedious.

If we're going to keep this whole damage-sponge-thing going can disablers either last twice as long to prevent running away so easily OR could we get a maneuver put in to prevent retreating? Base it on Tactics, have it be usable at pole range for most people and missile for Barbarians and based on Expertise instead.

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Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com

>>...it is incredibly easy to simply retreat and run away.

There is already a way to prevent this with the Tactics skill.

>>IIRC, Kodius already said that he was considering putting a system that made it more difficult to retreat based on how much you had attempted to do in a PvP combat. I'm not sure whether that ever made it into the "planned" status, though.<<

Hopefully not. PvP needs more of a player skill component to be interesting and pinning people down / being evasive is a big part of that.

I think damage just needs to go up across the board so that putting your opponent at a momentary disadvantage matters more. The barrier review should help.

Mazrian

>>Being able to tactically use maneuvers to lock someone down for a short time and prevent them from just running away once you've successfully gotten to melee once, even if that maneuver puts you at some other kind of disadvantage (such as a defensive debuff), would be a huge boon.<<

This is what GRAPPLE does, more or less. Advance, disable them so they can't get away while you get to melee, grapple them, then pile on damage until they die. If you outclass them a little and you have the Tactics it'll work.

>>Disablers lasting longer would help -- I can't even get a single TM spell off by the time my disablers wear off even if I utterly dominate the contest and pump as much mana as I can into the spells. And this is against people with 20 circles and over a hundred ranks of deficit compared to me.<<

If you get the highest end success on a single target disable you should have ~25 seconds minus your RT. If you don't have enough time to get a TM spell off you're not winning the contest by as much as you think.

>>Presently, all the player skill in the world won't change the fact that a flawlessly executed ambush can be completely negated by the person typing retreat twice and spamming a direction unless they are extremely outclassed, to the tune of hundreds of ranks of disparity.<<

Not to be snarky, but if your ambush plan didn't take into account something like "I can't hurt this person much before they run away" then it wasn't a great plan and you might have been better off going with something else. =P

Mazrian

>>Disablers lasting longer would help -- I can't even get a single TM spell off by the time my disablers wear off even if I utterly dominate the contest and pump as much mana as I can into the spells. And this is against people with 20 circles and over a hundred ranks of deficit compared to me.

Just want to add that neither circle nor rank difference matters when it comes to debilitation. They are all stat contests, which again have nothing to do with circle or rank. At best you may have a TDP advantage over them (but that's not even guaranteed) and it all depends how both of your stats are allocated.

When it comes to ambushing, there SHOULD be guilds that have it better. For some of them it's a call sign.

What it sounds like is people whining because they didn't or haven't trained enough past what, in their eyes, is good enough. Like "I feel like I should be able to do X or Y by now, or be able to fight Z. And when they can't, or don't, or die trying, they get miffed.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>> Not saying people don't know how to play necessarily but, more likely people don't like to play the way that plays to guild strengths.

I agree with this. PvP right now is all about playing to your guild's strengths and the more you take advantage of the tools that you have, and learn to put yourself into a situation where you have the advantage, the better you will do. If you want to take some off-beat path for your guild in PvP, and you aren't successful, then you have nobody but yourself to blame.

Kodius has written a very robust combat system that has a ton of tools for everyone. It could use some polishing but as it stands right now if you use all the tools available to you PvP isn't that bad, and definitely not as impossible as the OP is making it sound like.

Insta-retreat in the context of PvP in particular is dumb. I think everyone would agree that it would be nice if engagement, retreat, and hang back got a review/retweak.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

insta-retreat is broken, more importantly so is grapple, there are about 10 ways to break grapple that are probably mech abuse but for anyone who's ever pvp'd they could list em out. It is what it is. Dragonrealms is poorly designed for pvp and anyone who claims different hasn't tried it.

If you don't far outclass someone it is literally impossible to kill another person unless 1. they don't know what they are doing, 2. are extremely drunk.

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PvP is slow, and yes, the barrier review should help. (Just try sparring with someone with no barriers up.) Having to rely on player skill as much as skill ranks is fun, but it's also a little too much hit-and-run right now for my taste, and instant-retreat is silly in a system where engagement is far from instant.

Also, let's not pretend grapple is best answer here. I mean, let's see how easy it is to break a grapple with a 150 circle and over 1k rank disparity and no special guild abilities or spells...

Warbrolus grabs hold of you in a tight grip. You grip back.
[You're winded, solidly balanced with no advantage.]
> flee
You can't do that while grappled.
You realize you're out of your element! You attempt to take the familiar way out by bolting north!
>
You flee like a sniveling barbarian confronted by a powerful mage!

[Obsidian Pass, Mountain Trail]
Cracks in the sides of the pass ooze a darkness flatter than the glassy black of the smoothed walls. The silence here is disturbing.
You also see a thin silverwood branch stripped of its leaves dangling out over the chasm.
Obvious paths: northeast, south.

>
Mapped exits: climb branch with rope

s
ret
You go south.

[Obsidian Pass, Chasm's Ridge]
The mountain trail comes to an abrupt end at the edge of a massive chasm with sheer walls that fall down into darkness. Twin thick cables of some indiscernable substance hang over the chasm, tied off on this end to a rickety platform that looks about as stable as a faenrae reaver on samatak.
Also here: Pack Protector Warbrolus who is shining with a dark golden glow.
Obvious paths: north.

>
Mapped exits: climb rickety platform

Wouldn't it be better if you used a melee weapon?
You are unable to break Warbrolus's grip and can't retreat!
> ret
You are already as far away as you can get!
> grapp warb
You reach out toward Warbrolus but are unable to make contact.
[You're fatigued, badly balanced with opponent in strong position.]
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R> ass
You assess your combat situation...


>
Warbrolus grabs hold of you in a tight grip. You grip back.
[You're fatigued, off balance with opponent in better position.]

_____________

Warbrolus grabs hold of you in a tight grip. You grip back.
[You're solidly balanced and in very strong position.]
> lie
You relax your body, allowing it to fall, which breaks Warbrolus's grip on you.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

P> stand
ret
ret
Your wounds are making standing more difficult.
You stand back up.

>
You retreat back to pole range.
>
You retreat from combat.

____________

Warbrolus grabs hold of you in a tight grip. You grip back.
[You're very badly balanced with opponent in excellent position.]
P> kneel
You rise to a kneeling position.

K> lie
Wouldn't it be better if you used a melee weapon?
Warbrolus prevents you from lieing. Perhaps you should break his grip on you somehow or shove him away!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
KR> lie
Wouldn't it be better if you used a melee weapon?
Warbrolus prevents you from lieing. Perhaps you should break his grip on you somehow or shove him away!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
KR> lie
You relax your body, allowing it to fall, which breaks Warbrolus's grip on you.
Roundtime: 1 sec.

PR> stand
Your wounds are making standing more difficult.
You stand back up.

> ret
You retreat from combat.

I agree with Mazrian. I think even with the barrier review that damage could use an uptick instead of more disablers that keep people from moving. Being forced to sit there and lose a fight isn't fun and would bring less interaction instead of more. This would just turn PvP into a slow, one-sided fight even more than it is now.

As a paladin... with the ability to halt... how can you gripe about that? That's one of the best disablers there is. Since you singled out my guild... Thieves need to run because the best abilities suck a LOT of concentration. If you can't wait them out, sucks to be you. If you can, most Thieves are one pump chumps. It's no different than a mage running out of mana, except mana regen is WAY faster lol. Anyways, you should come to the Wyvern Trials on Monday nights at 9. It's always a lot of fun.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

It's not how it reads.

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Halt has the same issue as every other disabler, namely not really having a super long duration and diminishing returns. I understand why diminishing returns are a thing, but it really feels too...much? Right now. Like it just kind of ramps up too quickly.

And Paladins can't even utilize stealth to get to melee first unseen. Yeah "use a ranged" but that has its own issues depending on which weapon you've got and it would be nice if melee had more value in PvP in general. Actually, being able to control positioning and range more finely would be really useful in general for PvE as well.

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Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com

>>I understand why diminishing returns are a thing, but it really feels too...much? Right now. Like it just kind of ramps up too quickly.

I wish they would reduce diminishing returns also. Right now you get one (maybe 2 at the top-end) decent duration, and the next time you use it the duration is so short that it's pointless to use. You just end up wasting whatever resource you use to fuel the disabler.

I don't think PVP is too long really, I think it CAN be. If ranks are really close, it's its a scratchfest. But it doesn't take much to tip those scales.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

A full minute? That's ridiculous... Why should it take a full minute to kill someone? If it takes you a full minute to kill someone with them unable to move... you are doing it wrong. Not to mention there is something HORRIBLY wrong with a skill/stat contest somewhere.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

A disabler that lasts a full minute is stupid and automatically OP. Again, if it takes you more than half that while someone is disabled, you should be apologizing and leaving abruptly. Keeping someone at melee that long is also a bit crappy since there are plenty of reasons that someone shouldn't have to be stuck at melee.

I think your definition and mine are different. I'm talking about disabled ala Halt. If you just mean not retreating, that's a different story, and I still think a full minute is a good bit much. Why should you get to dictate how I fight? There was a spell that did this previously that I think paladins had? I'm pretty sure that ability is gone from it. IIRC

We are all in agreement that ranges and combat need looked at.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

>I will say that Thieves right now are uniquely situated for single-target Alpha and that is probably not the best experience to draw from regarding our core expectations

But why wouldn't this be a core expectation? I'm a barbarian and sure I want to uber pwonz everyone in PVP but that isn't realistic or good for game design. Shouldn't we set a baseline of what guilds should be what target-type Alpha/Beta/Omega so that development can move forward from there to some extent. I know it's not as cut and dry as that and I am not advocating that X guild always wins when matched equally (whatever you want that to me) in one-on-one PVP but there has to be a focus otherwise everyone becomes equal, which is what I think this whole thread is trying to dissuade.

OP is one thing but having unique abilities to unique situations is, to me, one of the things that makes this game so fun. I don't like the outcome then I can train to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

A Thief's alpha strike cuts down time to kill for pvp like no other guild. Barbarians and Paladins should have comparable alpha strike power abilities (for both PvE and PvP). I don't include Warrior Mages because I think they shine in aoe vs single target.

I generally dislike PvP (personally) in DR but I would kill for an alpha strike (as a Moon Mage) as good as thieves have. While I'd love to have it, I don't think Moon Mages should have it.

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