Previous
Contest is tactics vs defending, brawl isn't involved afaik.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
KHIOL
DR-KODIUS
Re: Tactics.
06/17/2013 11:18 AM CDT
Still haven't looked at the invisible bug w/ grappling. Please keep reminding me and I'll be more likely to have a few hours to poke.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
KHIOL
Re: Tactics.
06/17/2013 11:48 AM CDT
Think the bigger issue with the inviso grapple people are having is the inability to take a fair amount of actions that could benefit them in the situation. Not sure on all the actions it restricts since the general outrage about it I haven't used it just to be fair to others, like Paladins generally don't use protect b/c its broke.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
HEITAK
Re: Tactics.
06/17/2013 01:33 PM CDT
Yeah I was not sure about brawling due to grapple once being a brawling tactic. And yeah for me the problem is once grappled IMHO I feel I should be able to take actions vs the person grappling me and when combined with invisibility, that is not really an option. I will say when I tested 510 defending 360 tactics vs 460 and 560 tactics, the person with 460 Could not really shove me, tried to circle me and had a hard time getting position ( as it should be vs 500+ defending) and the person with 560 tactics could shove me down ( what seemed like once every 30 seconds), the first time I was shoved down but stayed at melee, the second time was back to pole. Much better than the consistent shove to missile and on my but every time, also he could circle and get position on me. I'm not sure what stats play a roll in this, both people out circles me so I assume they should out stat me a fair amount. All in all it felt much more balanced outside of me not being able to break grapple ( with less than 4-7 retreat/shoves) with the person less skilled than me.
KHIOL
Re: Tactics.
06/17/2013 02:23 PM CDT
>All in all it felt much more balanced outside of me not being able to break grapple ( with less than 4-7 retreat/shoves) with the person less skilled than me.
I played with this a little, I can't replicate what your describing vs a target with 400 defend and grappler with 435 tactics I can break grapple it failed when I didn't have balance and position so I circled a time or two and it broke just fine.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
I played with this a little, I can't replicate what your describing vs a target with 400 defend and grappler with 435 tactics I can break grapple it failed when I didn't have balance and position so I circled a time or two and it broke just fine.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Tactics.
06/17/2013 10:20 PM CDT
So I tried testing the invisible + grappled thing, and found I could just leave the room once they went invisible. I don't believe the system recognizes you as being engaged, at melee or grappled once the other person vanishes from sight.
If this isn't an acceptable workaround, could you please email me a log + steps to reproduce the problems you are seeing? There are about a dozen ways for me to possibly modify combat to assist with this, but many could create other problems (or just take a long time) so I want to make sure I get them all.
The easiest would be to break a grapple when someone goes invis. Unfortunately that involves editing every source of invisibility, which I'm not really familiar with.
Instead I'd like to just make grapple-breaks auto-succeed if the target is hidden. But that doesn't seem to be necessary at the moment.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
If this isn't an acceptable workaround, could you please email me a log + steps to reproduce the problems you are seeing? There are about a dozen ways for me to possibly modify combat to assist with this, but many could create other problems (or just take a long time) so I want to make sure I get them all.
The easiest would be to break a grapple when someone goes invis. Unfortunately that involves editing every source of invisibility, which I'm not really familiar with.
Instead I'd like to just make grapple-breaks auto-succeed if the target is hidden. But that doesn't seem to be necessary at the moment.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
NINEVAH1
Re: Tactics.
06/18/2013 07:36 AM CDT
You begin to advance on XX.
>
You close to pole weapon range on XX.
>
You close to melee range on XX.
> grapp XX
You grab hold of XX in a tight grip. XX grips you back.
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R> khri star sil
>
You allow all thoughts and desires to cease, silencing themselves. As your mind wills itself into nothingness, so too does your presence.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
IR>
XX strolls northeast.
I> ass
You assess your combat situation...
I find this acceptable. It completely does away with a potential griefing problem and doesn't add one more thing to the pile.
>
You close to pole weapon range on XX.
>
You close to melee range on XX.
> grapp XX
You grab hold of XX in a tight grip. XX grips you back.
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R> khri star sil
>
You allow all thoughts and desires to cease, silencing themselves. As your mind wills itself into nothingness, so too does your presence.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
IR>
XX strolls northeast.
I> ass
You assess your combat situation...
I find this acceptable. It completely does away with a potential griefing problem and doesn't add one more thing to the pile.
KHIOL
Re: Tactics.
06/18/2013 11:54 AM CDT
Its not an issue w/o other targets engaged to you (zombie, construct, critters, other players ect.). It wont let you leave due to being engaged yet you cannot break grapple with the invis because they are invis, you cannot attack the other targets b/c your grappled. SEARCH also seemed to be unusable allowing SEARCH and POINT would help.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
NINEVAH1
Re: Tactics.
06/18/2013 12:53 PM CDT
From the victim's point of view:
Joe begins to advance on you!
Joe is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
>
Sally begins to advance on you!
Sally is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
>
Joe closes to pole weapon range on you!
>
Joe closes to melee range on you!
>
Sally closes to pole weapon range on you!
>
Joe grabs hold of you in a tight grip. You grip back.
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
> (Joe goes into invisibility here)
Sally closes to melee range on you!
> retreat
I could not find what you were referring to.
> retreat
I could not find what you were referring to.
> l
[Langenfirth, Mir Mod]
Under the shade of the giant firs stands a tidy cabin with "Town Hall" painted on the door. A bronze gong hangs nearby, green with age and weather. The building appears to be one of the oldest ones in the town, but it has either had excellent care or very little use.
Also here: Sally.
Obvious paths: northeast, southeast.
> ne
You are engaged to Sally at melee range!
> face sally
You can't manage that while grappled with Joe.
> shove joe
I could not find what you were referring to.
> search
You can't manage that while grappled with Joe.
> assess
You assess your combat situation...
Sally (solidly balanced) is flanking you at melee range.
(You are also defending against Sally.)
> retreat
I could not find what you were referring to.
Seems to be more than one bug here (or one bug causing massive issues). Not only is there an issue with what you can do while grappled, but it didn't seem to realize the victim was in combat when trying to retreat.
Also something I noticed while disengaging everyone. Joe was the only one who grappled the victim, but it seemed to think Sally was grappled when she tried to retreat from the victim. Here's the log from Sally's point of view.
Joe breaks away from Victim.
>
Joe retreats from combat.
>
Joe retreats from combat.
> retr
You shove Victim with tremendous force, knocking her into a sprawling heap.
[You're solidly balanced and in dominating position.]
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You retreat from combat.
R> retr
...wait 2 seconds.
Again, Sally did nothing more than advance to melee then retreat twice. Maybe it's thinking the second person/thing advanced is now the one grappling when the grappler goes inviso and throwing everything into confusion. Just a guess on my end from what I'm seeing. I hope this helps you either sort things out and get them working right, or decide in which direction to go to make a fix.
Joe begins to advance on you!
Joe is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
>
Sally begins to advance on you!
Sally is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
>
Joe closes to pole weapon range on you!
>
Joe closes to melee range on you!
>
Sally closes to pole weapon range on you!
>
Joe grabs hold of you in a tight grip. You grip back.
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
> (Joe goes into invisibility here)
Sally closes to melee range on you!
> retreat
I could not find what you were referring to.
> retreat
I could not find what you were referring to.
> l
[Langenfirth, Mir Mod]
Under the shade of the giant firs stands a tidy cabin with "Town Hall" painted on the door. A bronze gong hangs nearby, green with age and weather. The building appears to be one of the oldest ones in the town, but it has either had excellent care or very little use.
Also here: Sally.
Obvious paths: northeast, southeast.
> ne
You are engaged to Sally at melee range!
> face sally
You can't manage that while grappled with Joe.
> shove joe
I could not find what you were referring to.
> search
You can't manage that while grappled with Joe.
> assess
You assess your combat situation...
Sally (solidly balanced) is flanking you at melee range.
(You are also defending against Sally.)
> retreat
I could not find what you were referring to.
Seems to be more than one bug here (or one bug causing massive issues). Not only is there an issue with what you can do while grappled, but it didn't seem to realize the victim was in combat when trying to retreat.
Also something I noticed while disengaging everyone. Joe was the only one who grappled the victim, but it seemed to think Sally was grappled when she tried to retreat from the victim. Here's the log from Sally's point of view.
Joe breaks away from Victim.
>
Joe retreats from combat.
>
Joe retreats from combat.
> retr
You shove Victim with tremendous force, knocking her into a sprawling heap.
[You're solidly balanced and in dominating position.]
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You retreat from combat.
R> retr
...wait 2 seconds.
Again, Sally did nothing more than advance to melee then retreat twice. Maybe it's thinking the second person/thing advanced is now the one grappling when the grappler goes inviso and throwing everything into confusion. Just a guess on my end from what I'm seeing. I hope this helps you either sort things out and get them working right, or decide in which direction to go to make a fix.
GORTEOUS
Re: Tactics.
06/19/2013 02:15 AM CDT
Yea, that's basically it. You can't move while engaged, but you can't see what or who you are engaged to to retreat or break the grapple.
The only way to get out of it is either if the person in inviso breaks it, or the person in the open goes inviso at which the grappled parties can freely walk away.
I bugged it back in February tho.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
The only way to get out of it is either if the person in inviso breaks it, or the person in the open goes inviso at which the grappled parties can freely walk away.
I bugged it back in February tho.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
VEE-REX
Re: Tactics.
06/19/2013 06:48 PM CDT
This has been a problem with invisibility for a very long time.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
RAIST
Re: Tactics.
06/30/2013 03:41 PM CDT
I'd just rather see being grappled or grappling break invisibility.
If I've got someone in a head lock, or vice versa, doesn't take a genius to figure out where they are. Especially considering invisibility in DR is more Predator field than Harry Potter cloak.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
If I've got someone in a head lock, or vice versa, doesn't take a genius to figure out where they are. Especially considering invisibility in DR is more Predator field than Harry Potter cloak.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
KHIOL
Re: Tactics.
07/01/2013 07:58 AM CDT
>I'd just rather see being grappled or grappling break invisibility.
Problem I see with that is invis pulses and grappling wouldn't negate a spell pattern you have on yourself. So maybe have initial grapple if invis pull you from invis, but allow search, point, and shove while grappled to someone invis. Seems like a fair enough way to handle it to me. Basically only effects those of us that PvP.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
Problem I see with that is invis pulses and grappling wouldn't negate a spell pattern you have on yourself. So maybe have initial grapple if invis pull you from invis, but allow search, point, and shove while grappled to someone invis. Seems like a fair enough way to handle it to me. Basically only effects those of us that PvP.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
ELRIIC
Re: Tactics.
07/01/2013 08:33 AM CDT
<<Grappling shouldn't ignore invisibility per se, but even if the object is invisible. You're grappling it. Maybe apply a penalty but, "elbow large chunk of SOMETHING" should do something.. heh.
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
KHIOL
Re: Tactics.
07/01/2013 09:50 AM CDT
Right, basically allow for melee actions you could normally do grappled, if thats the route that gets taken I think the being able to just leave the room while grappled invis needs taken out though.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
ALDEN
Re: Tactics.
07/04/2013 02:24 PM CDT
Martee passed away?
I hadn't heard....I had known her through her character for so long- didn't see her often but always enjoyed her wit and intelligence. Sad to hear.
I hadn't heard....I had known her through her character for so long- didn't see her often but always enjoyed her wit and intelligence. Sad to hear.
ELRIIC
Re: Tactics.
07/05/2013 12:47 AM CDT
Its off topic, sorry, last post on the matter but Lisa/Martee's memorial will be on Tuesday at 10pm. There's a calendar entry for it.
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
SPYRAUX
Re: Tactics.
07/25/2013 05:56 AM CDT
>>I'd just rather see being grappled or grappling break invisibility.
I think a grappled invisible opponent should just be treated as a special circumstance with it's own encounter modifiers. I probably wouldn't say that it should break invisibility, as it still invokes benefits outside thus particular engagement. Not to mention it is a personal effect maintained by the user to themself. Although holding someone who is invisible would definitely allow the grappler to have a considerable control of their location and movement, though not always knowledge of what they are doing. It should also still leave them difficult to effect for anyone else not involved. For others in the room, you'd probably merely look like your wrestling with air, or doing a strange dance.
>>If I've got someone in a head lock, or vice versa, doesn't take a genius to figure out where they are.
True. However, I would vote a small penalty to many of the melee attacks of the person grappling them, but negating some the immunity effects of being invis. Except to all others in the room(or invoking a much higher penalty). So things like punching and kicking while grappled would be penalized, but shoving would not. And effects like retreating or shoving would act normally, but assessing and looking would not. For all others in the room, not engaged, all invis affects should generally still apply.
~Van
I think a grappled invisible opponent should just be treated as a special circumstance with it's own encounter modifiers. I probably wouldn't say that it should break invisibility, as it still invokes benefits outside thus particular engagement. Not to mention it is a personal effect maintained by the user to themself. Although holding someone who is invisible would definitely allow the grappler to have a considerable control of their location and movement, though not always knowledge of what they are doing. It should also still leave them difficult to effect for anyone else not involved. For others in the room, you'd probably merely look like your wrestling with air, or doing a strange dance.
>>If I've got someone in a head lock, or vice versa, doesn't take a genius to figure out where they are.
True. However, I would vote a small penalty to many of the melee attacks of the person grappling them, but negating some the immunity effects of being invis. Except to all others in the room(or invoking a much higher penalty). So things like punching and kicking while grappled would be penalized, but shoving would not. And effects like retreating or shoving would act normally, but assessing and looking would not. For all others in the room, not engaged, all invis affects should generally still apply.
~Van
