<<On the bright side, I have been spending a lot of time discussing this very thing with GM Ulerith, our magnificent and hard-working Critter Guru, and we are working towards identifying (she's amazing when it comes to data tracking) and plugging a lot of the gaps.
Dart: My apologies in advance and with much respect, I would like to take a moment to complain about this particular process and the results thus far and some of my personal frustration.
/complaint
Why in the world are we tossing out 200-300 rank new hunting areas (undead yeehars and nimbusthingies) when there are multiple 200-300 options in most every province?
Why not post the priorities for new creatures and get feedback? I suspect the greatest need is more options for 500-1000 ranks, almost everywhere.
Why not grab some very knowledgeable players to identify the places that have never been used, and never will be used because the creatures there are simply not huntable? I bet a list could be put together in an afternoon if you let me pick 5 people that have great knowledge of creatures (Hanryu for example).
No, I don't really buy "It takes time to code new areas and get them approved". I don't buy it because:
1. I have seen creature changes in such a short amount of time from complaint to implementation, that the delay is priority and time management (both very much acceptable delays I should say). My request would be to focus on this hunting issue.
2. There is absolutely no reason and no player desire that you open new areas (note "new areas"), when you can transform old, unused areas with new creatures or simply make some of the old creatures more dangerous or with less "this blows" special attacks.
/end complaint
Why this is important:
1. If you consolidate training places, you will make people come together. The result will be more RP opportunities and larger concentrations of people.
2. If you make the creatures tier in each province, you will create and maintain longer RP situations and more player concentrations through community involvement.
3. If you replace old (bad) creatures with new ones, you are saving time, coding and taking something useless out of the game and replacing it with something useful.
Sorry if this came across strong, just happened to be a burr in my saddle lately. I note and I am very appreciative of:
1. The change you made recently with certain creature special attacks.
2. The change to assassins making them much harder.
3. The new DP area for 800+ hunting.
4. The new 200-300 ranks areas in the last two months.
All of those are top notch things, and they should be acknowledged and noted.
Madigan
NEELD
TEVESHSZAT
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 11:04 AM CST
>>Why not grab some very knowledgeable players to identify the places that have never been used, and never will be used because the creatures there are simply not huntable? I bet a list could be put together in an afternoon if you let me pick 5 people that have great knowledge of creatures (Hanryu for example).
Hrm.
This sounds like a really interesting chart to work on.
If I were to construct something like this, what should I take into account?
Here are a few charts I'm considering:
1) All creatures worldwide
2) All creatures by province
3) All creatures you can skin*
4) All creatures with boxes*
5) All undead/cursed creatures
6) All "racial" creatures (louts, thugs, graverobbers, etc — this one interests me due to a conversation I had last night anyway)
Maybe I can then make some charts that mix the two of them. So all creatures you can skin in Therengia, etc.
(*I assume I'd be going by critter difficulty not box/skin difficulty)
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
Hrm.
This sounds like a really interesting chart to work on.
If I were to construct something like this, what should I take into account?
Here are a few charts I'm considering:
1) All creatures worldwide
2) All creatures by province
3) All creatures you can skin*
4) All creatures with boxes*
5) All undead/cursed creatures
6) All "racial" creatures (louts, thugs, graverobbers, etc — this one interests me due to a conversation I had last night anyway)
Maybe I can then make some charts that mix the two of them. So all creatures you can skin in Therengia, etc.
(*I assume I'd be going by critter difficulty not box/skin difficulty)
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
NEELD
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 11:33 AM CST
<<Differences in guild abilities, skillsets, and weapon choice can make it difficult for someone NOT to dance to train as effectively as possible. So Bill the Paladin who trains 2HE, HE, and ME as his weapons may have an entirely different training experience than Brad the Barb who trains long bow, LT, and MB. There's some dancing in my training routine, but it allows me to mindlock all my combats in 20-25 minutes. I feel that as long as someone is willing to accept potential conflict, they shouldn't be required to be courteous to others. It's not anyone's fault that the current system actually encourages dancing in some cases for maximum training efficiency.
Yeah, I am not saying you have to be nice at all in every situation or any situation.
I am saying that killing that fourth creature every...ohh 5 minutes may make life a bit easier on other people in the area. If you don't want to do that, more power to you. Bush league in my opinion.
Madigan
Yeah, I am not saying you have to be nice at all in every situation or any situation.
I am saying that killing that fourth creature every...ohh 5 minutes may make life a bit easier on other people in the area. If you don't want to do that, more power to you. Bush league in my opinion.
Madigan
VEE-REX
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 11:54 AM CST
>> If you don't want to do that, more power to you. Bush league in my opinion.
I just view it as one of a million negative situations imposed by others that can occur in the game. It happens to everyone, and if I (who hunts at a level where critters are thinner than the hair of a man going bald) can find a way around it without it being a big deal, I'm sure others can. ;)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I just view it as one of a million negative situations imposed by others that can occur in the game. It happens to everyone, and if I (who hunts at a level where critters are thinner than the hair of a man going bald) can find a way around it without it being a big deal, I'm sure others can. ;)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
RAIST
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 12:38 PM CST
>Maybe I can then make some charts that mix the two of them. So all creatures you can skin in Therengia, etc.
That's why I put in the bestariary search page on Elanthipedia.
Hurray for me!
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Combat Balance Sheet:
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/balance2.xls
That's why I put in the bestariary search page on Elanthipedia.
Hurray for me!
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Combat Balance Sheet:
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/balance2.xls
TEVESHSZAT
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 01:28 PM CST
>>That's why I put in the bestariary search page on Elanthipedia.
For what it's worth, I'm basing the charts off the data found in the bestiary.
The problem with the bestiary is that people tend to process and understand things better when reading a graph/chart than they do reading a table. It's not really a failing of the search function (I use it a ton), but if someone wants to look at things as a forest instead of specific trees, something more visual would work a ton better.
That said, I'm just going to be goofing with HTML5/Canvas stuff to try to map this out. I tend to do more front end things than back end, but if I come across a way to eventually fully integrate the charts into Elanthipedia stuff, I'd definitely add it there (especially since it would mean I wouldn't have to really maintain things myself).
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
For what it's worth, I'm basing the charts off the data found in the bestiary.
The problem with the bestiary is that people tend to process and understand things better when reading a graph/chart than they do reading a table. It's not really a failing of the search function (I use it a ton), but if someone wants to look at things as a forest instead of specific trees, something more visual would work a ton better.
That said, I'm just going to be goofing with HTML5/Canvas stuff to try to map this out. I tend to do more front end things than back end, but if I come across a way to eventually fully integrate the charts into Elanthipedia stuff, I'd definitely add it there (especially since it would mean I wouldn't have to really maintain things myself).
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
PENDUS
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 01:45 PM CST
>>I am saying that killing that fourth creature every...ohh 5 minutes may make life a bit easier on other people in the area. If you don't want to do that, more power to you. Bush league in my opinion.<<
See but here's the issue, and I know you're aware of it. If someone to move up to something that locked defenses with two critters, that typically means three or four will kill them. Especially in the lower ranks up until the 400s. This leads to the problem where you can move up and die daily or you can sit and milk the critters that are technically below you for another 25-30 ranks and be safe when you move up. No death=better learning. I don't dance with four critters purposely, but if my choice was dance with four critters and learn my defenses to move up and never die, or move up now to be courteous to other players and die daily, I know what I'm doing.
Basically, it really sucks that people have to do that to be able to move up and not die daily. Departing helps, but you're still sitting out for a few minutes waiting for the death sickness to go away. I just don't think it's bush league when someone has to do that to move up safely.
See but here's the issue, and I know you're aware of it. If someone to move up to something that locked defenses with two critters, that typically means three or four will kill them. Especially in the lower ranks up until the 400s. This leads to the problem where you can move up and die daily or you can sit and milk the critters that are technically below you for another 25-30 ranks and be safe when you move up. No death=better learning. I don't dance with four critters purposely, but if my choice was dance with four critters and learn my defenses to move up and never die, or move up now to be courteous to other players and die daily, I know what I'm doing.
Basically, it really sucks that people have to do that to be able to move up and not die daily. Departing helps, but you're still sitting out for a few minutes waiting for the death sickness to go away. I just don't think it's bush league when someone has to do that to move up safely.
RAIST
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 01:58 PM CST
>The problem with the bestiary is that people tend to process and understand things better when reading a graph/chart than they do reading a table.
Nah, I meant use the search for your charts.
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Combat Balance Sheet:
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/balance2.xls
Nah, I meant use the search for your charts.
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Combat Balance Sheet:
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/balance2.xls
TEVESHSZAT
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 02:02 PM CST
>>Nah, I meant use the search for your charts.
Ah, totally had that planned! I'd go crazy trying to do that without epedia.
Once I get a beta of the charts working, I'll try looking into how to slip that stuff into the website itself.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
Ah, totally had that planned! I'd go crazy trying to do that without epedia.
Once I get a beta of the charts working, I'll try looking into how to slip that stuff into the website itself.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
MARTINCOTY77
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 02:11 PM CST
I'm in agreeance with Pendus. The system was set up the way it is, why would people purposefully make things harder on themselves? Like I said previously, a change has to happen across the board to all creatures/combats for their to be a change in training sytles. (which is happening apparently)
There is a point where it does get rediculous though. If it takes someone 45 minutes of straight dancing to lock a defense then that's a bit extreme and very annoying.
Currently I have to dance about 20 minutes to lock my parry where I am at which just happens to be 50 ranks lower than both my shield and evasion. (I never purposedly train MO anymore). After that I train normally and kill as fast as possible in shield stance, which locks easily. Discrepencies like this is what makes people dance so much. I tried just hunting normally in parry stance and I get like 1-2/34 while killing stuff, meanwhile doing the same with shield rockets to 34/34. To top that off, the 20 minutes I am dancing for parry is where I get hit the most by far. So system limitations, imbalances, or whatever you want to call them are definately partially at fault IMO.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
There is a point where it does get rediculous though. If it takes someone 45 minutes of straight dancing to lock a defense then that's a bit extreme and very annoying.
Currently I have to dance about 20 minutes to lock my parry where I am at which just happens to be 50 ranks lower than both my shield and evasion. (I never purposedly train MO anymore). After that I train normally and kill as fast as possible in shield stance, which locks easily. Discrepencies like this is what makes people dance so much. I tried just hunting normally in parry stance and I get like 1-2/34 while killing stuff, meanwhile doing the same with shield rockets to 34/34. To top that off, the 20 minutes I am dancing for parry is where I get hit the most by far. So system limitations, imbalances, or whatever you want to call them are definately partially at fault IMO.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
NEELD
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 02:44 PM CST
<<This leads to the problem where you can move up and die daily or you can sit and milk the critters that are technically below you for another 25-30 ranks and be safe when you move up. No death=better learning. I don't dance with four critters purposely, but if my choice was dance with four critters and learn my defenses to move up and never die, or move up now to be courteous to other players and die daily, I know what I'm doing.
Absolutely understand and spot on. I get it and deal with the same issue.
The only thing I would suggest is kill the fourth creature every five minutes or so and you accomplish the same thing. The side effect is that it allows continuous spawn for other people.
I don't think the net effect of killing the fourth creature every 5 minutes impacts anyone greatly. Do you have to do it? Nope.
Madigan
Absolutely understand and spot on. I get it and deal with the same issue.
The only thing I would suggest is kill the fourth creature every five minutes or so and you accomplish the same thing. The side effect is that it allows continuous spawn for other people.
I don't think the net effect of killing the fourth creature every 5 minutes impacts anyone greatly. Do you have to do it? Nope.
Madigan
GRANTJ47
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 03:42 PM CST
>>>>The problem with the bestiary is that people tend to process and understand things better when reading a graph/chart than they do reading a table.
We are playing a text game. As a group I think we should be fine reading tables. Now if this was graphic MMORPG.....
We are playing a text game. As a group I think we should be fine reading tables. Now if this was graphic MMORPG.....
TEVESHSZAT
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 03:47 PM CST
>>We are playing a text game. As a group I think we should be fine reading tables.
There's a reason why DragonRealms has things like color coded messages, line breaks, etc. There's also a reason why many people squelch text, or have text replaced to include more information, etc.
Right now, as informative as epedia's bestiary is, it's a giant pile of data that can be obnoxious to really trudge through when trying to find things like notable patterns and other forms of information. Sure, you can get a page showing ~450 creatures on it, but how easily can you tell what skill ranges are oversaturated versus undersaturated?
If I want to find a creature that requires between 100-200 ranks of skill that's skinnable in Aesry, it works great. If I want to find the metrics to something more complex, it gets a bit wacky.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
There's a reason why DragonRealms has things like color coded messages, line breaks, etc. There's also a reason why many people squelch text, or have text replaced to include more information, etc.
Right now, as informative as epedia's bestiary is, it's a giant pile of data that can be obnoxious to really trudge through when trying to find things like notable patterns and other forms of information. Sure, you can get a page showing ~450 creatures on it, but how easily can you tell what skill ranges are oversaturated versus undersaturated?
If I want to find a creature that requires between 100-200 ranks of skill that's skinnable in Aesry, it works great. If I want to find the metrics to something more complex, it gets a bit wacky.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
ROCKYWILLIAMS1479
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 05:04 PM CST
One thing that might help is dealing with hunting areas that have 2 critters of vastly different skill levels. We all know this. Lower skilled can't hunt there, because the higher skilled creatures slaughter them. High skilled people (at least some of us) hate hunting there because you find yourself surrounded at times by the lower-skilled things and aren't learning anything.
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - NecroUnknown
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - NecroUnknown
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: New Hunting Areas (Complaint) (Bit long)
03/04/2011 05:17 PM CST
> Why in the world are we tossing out 200-300 rank new hunting areas (undead yeehars and nimbusthingies) when there are multiple 200-300 options in most every province?
Because most critters created in this range are created by first-time critter trainees, and we typically ask them to stay below a certain level range when creating new critters for their training homework. Not so much because there is a need for critters in this range (although there are still gaps in this range in some categories/areas), but because once you get past a certain range, critters tend to become more complex and difficult to balance than we want trainees working with as their first foray into the realm of critters.
> Why not post the priorities for new creatures and get feedback? I suspect the greatest need is more options for 500-1000 ranks, almost everywhere.
Because frankly (and please don't take this the wrong way), most people don't know what they really want. Or rather, what they may think they want may not be what they really want or need. Or at the very least, what they may think they want or need may work for them, but not work at all for someone else, even with similar skills. Why? Because the higher you go on the ladder, the more combat breaks down and becomes inconsistent from character A to character B, or between Critter X and Critter Y, even if all the above have virtually the same skill ranks.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I will be posting some trivia information in a week or two regarding how skills are really matching up in hunting. I think that will open a lot of eyes to what I am talking about here.
> 2. There is absolutely no reason and no player desire that you open new areas (note "new areas"), when you can transform old, unused areas with new creatures or simply make some of the old creatures more dangerous or with less "this blows" special attacks.
While I disagree that there is no player desire for opening new areas (mostly because we get asked for new areas on a frequent enough basis that I know this is a bit of an exaggeration), I fully agree that transforming and updating existing areas is by and large the best route overall, and this is something that I have been heavily encouraging for the past couple of years, and some of our more experienced GMs have been doing a wonderful job at, even if it tends to go unnoticed for what it really is half the time. From the spreading out of variety and range out the west gate of Crossing to multiple changes on the islands and Therengia, this is already happening, and there's more things of this nature close to release.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
Because most critters created in this range are created by first-time critter trainees, and we typically ask them to stay below a certain level range when creating new critters for their training homework. Not so much because there is a need for critters in this range (although there are still gaps in this range in some categories/areas), but because once you get past a certain range, critters tend to become more complex and difficult to balance than we want trainees working with as their first foray into the realm of critters.
> Why not post the priorities for new creatures and get feedback? I suspect the greatest need is more options for 500-1000 ranks, almost everywhere.
Because frankly (and please don't take this the wrong way), most people don't know what they really want. Or rather, what they may think they want may not be what they really want or need. Or at the very least, what they may think they want or need may work for them, but not work at all for someone else, even with similar skills. Why? Because the higher you go on the ladder, the more combat breaks down and becomes inconsistent from character A to character B, or between Critter X and Critter Y, even if all the above have virtually the same skill ranks.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I will be posting some trivia information in a week or two regarding how skills are really matching up in hunting. I think that will open a lot of eyes to what I am talking about here.
> 2. There is absolutely no reason and no player desire that you open new areas (note "new areas"), when you can transform old, unused areas with new creatures or simply make some of the old creatures more dangerous or with less "this blows" special attacks.
While I disagree that there is no player desire for opening new areas (mostly because we get asked for new areas on a frequent enough basis that I know this is a bit of an exaggeration), I fully agree that transforming and updating existing areas is by and large the best route overall, and this is something that I have been heavily encouraging for the past couple of years, and some of our more experienced GMs have been doing a wonderful job at, even if it tends to go unnoticed for what it really is half the time. From the spreading out of variety and range out the west gate of Crossing to multiple changes on the islands and Therengia, this is already happening, and there's more things of this nature close to release.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
