Yes, again. It's stupid ridiculous that just because I'm wearing armor that I only have 500 ranks in that I get 1 shotted in a creature that I have twice the defensive ranks than they teach to.
This is in Abominations and Warriors and I'm getting 1 shotted every day or two. I have just shy of 500 ranks wearing HP and LP dancing dragon and Parrying with my 1k+ Parry and 1.1K evasion. MAKE IT STOP.
LUXORTH
NIKPACK
Re: Random Rolls
08/13/2009 04:34 PM CDT
They're working on it. Srsly it's like Dart's #1 task at the moment.
Nikpack
The gods are jerks. No, really.
-Armifer
Nikpack
The gods are jerks. No, really.
-Armifer
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Random Rolls
08/14/2009 04:20 PM CDT
>I have just shy of 500 ranks wearing HP and LP dancing dragon and Parrying with my 1k+ Parry and 1.1K evasion. MAKE IT STOP.
Just to be mildly antagonistic...
What stance are you using? Are your defenses stanced down while you're backtraining?
Just to be mildly antagonistic...
What stance are you using? Are your defenses stanced down while you're backtraining?
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 03:04 AM CDT
> Yes, again. It's stupid ridiculous that just because I'm wearing armor that I only have 500 ranks in that I get 1 shotted in a creature that I have twice the defensive ranks than they teach to.
> This is in Abominations and Warriors and I'm getting 1 shotted every day or two.
There are two major reasons one-shots happen. Three if you count not actually having adequate defenses. The first is the random roll, but since I cut it in half about a month ago, this is going to be far less likely to result in one-shot kills *that would not have happened anyway*. Please note the emphasis on the last bit. That leads to the second reason they happen -- in general the damage goes up as skill goes up, but the game engine has a fixed number of points a body part can take before being destroyed. As a result, after you get into the 500+ rank range, one shots will happen, period. There's simply no way to avoid this with the current combat system. Removing the random would merely mean you would either always get one-shot when a vital area is hit, or not. I'm not sure this is a better scenario.
I am redoing combat from the ground up, and this issue is one of the biggest things we'll be addressing. Because it is hard-coded in the engine, I cannot really do a lot about the fixed body part hit points, but there are some ways we can work around the issue. Unfortunately, due to the share size and scope of the combat system, it is not going to happen overnight.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
> This is in Abominations and Warriors and I'm getting 1 shotted every day or two.
There are two major reasons one-shots happen. Three if you count not actually having adequate defenses. The first is the random roll, but since I cut it in half about a month ago, this is going to be far less likely to result in one-shot kills *that would not have happened anyway*. Please note the emphasis on the last bit. That leads to the second reason they happen -- in general the damage goes up as skill goes up, but the game engine has a fixed number of points a body part can take before being destroyed. As a result, after you get into the 500+ rank range, one shots will happen, period. There's simply no way to avoid this with the current combat system. Removing the random would merely mean you would either always get one-shot when a vital area is hit, or not. I'm not sure this is a better scenario.
I am redoing combat from the ground up, and this issue is one of the biggest things we'll be addressing. Because it is hard-coded in the engine, I cannot really do a lot about the fixed body part hit points, but there are some ways we can work around the issue. Unfortunately, due to the share size and scope of the combat system, it is not going to happen overnight.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
JMF90
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 03:47 AM CDT
>Because it is hard-coded in the engine, I cannot really do a lot about the fixed body part hit points
I still don't understand this, but good luck with the updates.
I still don't understand this, but good luck with the updates.
KHORLAR
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 05:20 AM CDT
What does hard coded into the game engine mean? Are there parts of the code you guys don't have access to? Are portions of the engine proprietary and unowned by simutronics? Would it be like me trying to (bleep) around with the java struts framework?
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 05:30 AM CDT
By my understanding (which may be flawed)...
Certain aspects of dragonland's coding are only accessible to the friendly on-site staff; namely, the backbone engine that DR runs on. Anything that is hard-coded into the engine is something conventional GMs can't mess with, period.
Rev. Reene
Ventuul whispers, "OOC: It seems like you attract winners though, good job."
Certain aspects of dragonland's coding are only accessible to the friendly on-site staff; namely, the backbone engine that DR runs on. Anything that is hard-coded into the engine is something conventional GMs can't mess with, period.
Rev. Reene
Ventuul whispers, "OOC: It seems like you attract winners though, good job."
KHORLAR
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 06:32 AM CDT
I see. This is to keep frontier GMs from fracking the core engine. Makes sense. Dart, in your combat rebuild you mentioned it's from the ground up. Can you give us a bit of insight into this? How much of combat is going to be completely different from what we've experienced for the past, 15 years or so? I'm not worried, glad to see someone take the bullet and finally decide it's broken enough to redo instead of fix. Many many software programs go through this eventually.
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 07:31 AM CDT
What I've gathered:
-Armor will be more important, with hindrance based on armor skill relative to evasion and the minimum on each type determined by skillset rather than guild.
-Fatigue will become less important but harder to keep at full, so you'll get tired more easily and have to deal with the penalties.
-Vitality will be extremely important, because your vitality level will be linked to how severe the wounds you recieve are, effectively making Stamina a very important stat to train.
-Bleeding will be a bigger threat, with vitality drain and I think fatigue drain coming into play.
-Lodged weapons will also become a bigger threat for similar reasons to the above.
-We'll be rewarded more experience-wise by killing stuff quickly rather than hanging out dancing.
-Combos are going away, but each move will still have its own modifiers to offense and defense. These will, however, only last about as long as the roundtime of the move itself, excluding dodge and parry.
-By extension we can infer that how we handle balance will be changing; I haven't read anything about this that I can remember off the top of my head, but it probably means balance-affecting abilities will become more important than before.
That's all I can remember, hopefully it's fairly accurate.
[21:34] Your mind hears Mujaki thinking, "You are never too young for liquor."
[21:34] Your mind hears Kalnean thinking, "You don't have any kids, do you."
[21:35] Your mind hears Mujaki thinking, "I hope not."
-Armor will be more important, with hindrance based on armor skill relative to evasion and the minimum on each type determined by skillset rather than guild.
-Fatigue will become less important but harder to keep at full, so you'll get tired more easily and have to deal with the penalties.
-Vitality will be extremely important, because your vitality level will be linked to how severe the wounds you recieve are, effectively making Stamina a very important stat to train.
-Bleeding will be a bigger threat, with vitality drain and I think fatigue drain coming into play.
-Lodged weapons will also become a bigger threat for similar reasons to the above.
-We'll be rewarded more experience-wise by killing stuff quickly rather than hanging out dancing.
-Combos are going away, but each move will still have its own modifiers to offense and defense. These will, however, only last about as long as the roundtime of the move itself, excluding dodge and parry.
-By extension we can infer that how we handle balance will be changing; I haven't read anything about this that I can remember off the top of my head, but it probably means balance-affecting abilities will become more important than before.
That's all I can remember, hopefully it's fairly accurate.
[21:34] Your mind hears Mujaki thinking, "You are never too young for liquor."
[21:34] Your mind hears Kalnean thinking, "You don't have any kids, do you."
[21:35] Your mind hears Mujaki thinking, "I hope not."
LUXORTH
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 08:24 AM CDT
>>The first is the random roll, but since I cut it in half about a month ago, this is going to be far less likely to result in one-shot kills *that would not have happened anyway*. Please note the emphasis on the last bit.
It just seems to me that If i'm getting 1 shotted by something with offensive skills that are half my defenses that the random roll is still crazily high.
It just seems to me that If i'm getting 1 shotted by something with offensive skills that are half my defenses that the random roll is still crazily high.
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 09:11 AM CDT
To be fair, armor is/should be considered a defensive skill.
It DOES make a difference, even currently. Vashir is more likely to get hit in his plate than other Barbs near his level in chain/leather... but it's usually a glancing hit, whereas their hits are damaging. High armor skill FTW!
[21:34] Your mind hears Mujaki thinking, "You are never too young for liquor."
[21:34] Your mind hears Kalnean thinking, "You don't have any kids, do you."
[21:35] Your mind hears Mujaki thinking, "I hope not."
It DOES make a difference, even currently. Vashir is more likely to get hit in his plate than other Barbs near his level in chain/leather... but it's usually a glancing hit, whereas their hits are damaging. High armor skill FTW!
[21:34] Your mind hears Mujaki thinking, "You are never too young for liquor."
[21:34] Your mind hears Kalnean thinking, "You don't have any kids, do you."
[21:35] Your mind hears Mujaki thinking, "I hope not."
LUXORTH
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 09:30 AM CDT
>>To be fair, armor is/should be considered a defensive skill.
>>It DOES make a difference, even currently.
I understand this but my cleric, with only 100 more ranks in armor and close to half in all the other defenses is in there and doesn't get one shotted nearly as much. I forgot to mention in addition to my 1K+ defenses (minus armor) I'm also dancing dragon back to back. It still seems to me that the random roll is providing way too many offensive ranks.
>>It DOES make a difference, even currently.
I understand this but my cleric, with only 100 more ranks in armor and close to half in all the other defenses is in there and doesn't get one shotted nearly as much. I forgot to mention in addition to my 1K+ defenses (minus armor) I'm also dancing dragon back to back. It still seems to me that the random roll is providing way too many offensive ranks.
SUGARSNOUT
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 12:50 PM CDT
<<Are there parts of the code you guys don't have access to?>>
Yes.
Solomon
Fight me:
http://la-bubbita.mybrute.com
Yes.
Solomon
Fight me:
http://la-bubbita.mybrute.com
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 01:16 PM CDT
> It just seems to me that If i'm getting 1 shotted by something with offensive skills that are half my defenses that the random roll is still crazily high.
Or defenses are massively broken (especially at higher levels), which is probably more accurate. Keep in mind that in current combat, you never ever ever ever have 100% of your actual defense. The sheer number of modifiers on defense skills is mind-boggling, and almost always in the form of penalties. You have any weight at all? Penalty. You tired at all? Penalty. Hindered at all? Penalty. Unbalanced at all? Penalty. Certain wounds? Penalty. Have you ever attacked anything or even used dodge/parry commands? Guess what? Yep. Penalty. Jupiter aligned with mars? It is the dawning of the age of Aquarius! Er...wait.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
Or defenses are massively broken (especially at higher levels), which is probably more accurate. Keep in mind that in current combat, you never ever ever ever have 100% of your actual defense. The sheer number of modifiers on defense skills is mind-boggling, and almost always in the form of penalties. You have any weight at all? Penalty. You tired at all? Penalty. Hindered at all? Penalty. Unbalanced at all? Penalty. Certain wounds? Penalty. Have you ever attacked anything or even used dodge/parry commands? Guess what? Yep. Penalty. Jupiter aligned with mars? It is the dawning of the age of Aquarius! Er...wait.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
LUXORTH
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 01:22 PM CDT
That's for the replies Dart. I guess I'll just have to wait for the combat changes to backtrain armors.
SHYGOAT
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 05:13 PM CDT
>hard-coded in the engine
I never really understood what this means when GMs say it. How can code really be permanent and not be re-written? Is it on punch cards or something?
I'm not trying to be snarky. Genuinely curious.
I never really understood what this means when GMs say it. How can code really be permanent and not be re-written? Is it on punch cards or something?
I'm not trying to be snarky. Genuinely curious.
GEORGIEPOO
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 05:19 PM CDT
<<I never really understood what this means when GMs say it. How can code really be permanent and not be re-written? Is it on punch cards or something?
My understanding is there is the base engine, which is written in something like C and compiled. A change there would mean recompiling and restarting the entire game. Only the on site staff has access to this.
Then there is a scripting language and scripts written in it that the GMs can edit and change on the fly. This makes up the majority of the actual game.
I'm not a GM nor ever have been and could be way WAY off, but this is how I'd attempt to design it if I were in the business.
- George, Player of Foresee
My understanding is there is the base engine, which is written in something like C and compiled. A change there would mean recompiling and restarting the entire game. Only the on site staff has access to this.
Then there is a scripting language and scripts written in it that the GMs can edit and change on the fly. This makes up the majority of the actual game.
I'm not a GM nor ever have been and could be way WAY off, but this is how I'd attempt to design it if I were in the business.
- George, Player of Foresee
SMTHSAILN
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 05:20 PM CDT
<<I never really understood what this means when GMs say it.
The stuff that is being changed is stored in some sort of dynamic file structure that can be tweaked since it is not part of the binary. Where as hard coded I think they have it written in the compiled code as CHESTPOINTSMAX=120 (or whatever). So in order to change this, they would have to recompile the engine. But you have to make sure this would not have downstream affects.
/my guess
-Stayn
The stuff that is being changed is stored in some sort of dynamic file structure that can be tweaked since it is not part of the binary. Where as hard coded I think they have it written in the compiled code as CHESTPOINTSMAX=120 (or whatever). So in order to change this, they would have to recompile the engine. But you have to make sure this would not have downstream affects.
/my guess
-Stayn
SHYGOAT
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 05:44 PM CDT
Heh, oops. Looks like I should have read the next page of posts before typing that last one. Sorry.
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
KHORLAR
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 05:50 PM CDT
When was the last time the core engine underwent a massive reconfiguration? DR2? Is the core engine using code that's 15 years old and desperately needing some TLC?
DWARB-POWER
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 06:30 PM CDT
I actually have wondered that myself. Make copies of everything on file. Then update to a new game engine so that things that are hard coded to the previous game engine (like vital body parts).
You mention about not preferring band-aids to a core problem, but the core problem was that this game was intended to be played until 30th circle when DR was in it's infancy.
- Simon
You mention about not preferring band-aids to a core problem, but the core problem was that this game was intended to be played until 30th circle when DR was in it's infancy.
- Simon
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Random Rolls
08/20/2009 11:55 PM CDT
>>I actually have wondered that myself. Make copies of everything on file. Then update to a new game engine so that things that are hard coded to the previous game engine (like vital body parts).
Imagine you have a nice, blackboard sized algebra equation going on, one of those real big ones that put the fear of God into you in middle school. Now imagine that someone randomly went up and changed the value of one of the variables. Clearly, you can't just do that and expect the rest of the equation to still mean anything: by changing one variable, you now have cascading changes through the entire equation.
Of course, this isn't a realistic example: DR would take up a lot of blackboards and we don't stop at algebra.
-Armifer
<Kvlt> Step 1: Want stuff! Step 2: Be ambitious! Step 3: Believe in the ability of your fellow man to carry you to heights you are too incompetent to reach alone.
Imagine you have a nice, blackboard sized algebra equation going on, one of those real big ones that put the fear of God into you in middle school. Now imagine that someone randomly went up and changed the value of one of the variables. Clearly, you can't just do that and expect the rest of the equation to still mean anything: by changing one variable, you now have cascading changes through the entire equation.
Of course, this isn't a realistic example: DR would take up a lot of blackboards and we don't stop at algebra.
-Armifer
<Kvlt> Step 1: Want stuff! Step 2: Be ambitious! Step 3: Believe in the ability of your fellow man to carry you to heights you are too incompetent to reach alone.
